What IS Woman?

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

Here are some scriptures that all give a similar feel for a womans place in the ancient world. I have some thoughts about this but first I wondered what other women (or men) think of these scriptures. The links to the source are below each one.

5 ¶The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman’s garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/deut/22.5?lang=eng#4
 
11 Wo unto the wicked, for they shall perish; for the reward of their hands shall be upon them!

12 And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who lead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne ... ang=eng#11  


 3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.
 4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/7.13?lang=eng#12
 
  
 16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/gen/3.13?lang=eng#12
 
 
 6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.
 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
 8 For the man is not of the woman; but the woman of the man.
 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
 10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.
 11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
 
http://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/1-cor/11.6?lang=eng#5
 
 
2 If a man vow a avow unto the Lord, or swear an oath to bind his soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
 3 If a woman also vow a vow unto the Lord, and bind herself by a bond, being in her father’s house in her youth;
...
 6 And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
 7 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
 8 But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it;then he shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips, wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the Lord shall forgive her.
 9 But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
 10 And if she vowed in her husband’s house, or bound her soul by a bond with an oath;
 11 And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her soul shall stand.
 12 But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them; then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and the Lord shall forgive her.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/num/30.3?lang=eng#2

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

Maybe I too am hoping the breast topic will die but I think it needs to be replaced by something interesting.... So sisters are we subservient to men in the gospel? Are we supposed to be? What would be different if that were the standard? (we will only use righteous men as the example since it is a no-brainer that evil men are evil) I there a way to "follow" and still be equal? Is equality a standard we should aspire to?

What would you do if your husband wanted something you were opposed to and you could not come to an agreement?
I ask these questions of my single sisters all the time. I am always stunned at the answers I get.

[karend77captain of 100]

What would you do if your husband wanted something you were opposed to and you could not come to an agreement?
I ask these questions of my single sisters all the time. I am always stunned at the answers I get.

This discussion on equality for women vs men/gender roles, etc has been going on since I can remember (and I am in my 50's). We are different, we can never be the same. God has given us different roles. My husband can never know the emotions or physical effects that come with childbearing, for instance.

I feel "equal" to my husband in that we counsel together over things. Occasionally we dont agree on a course of action for a particular issue; but if it does not "hurt" us in anyway/not unrighteous, then whoever feels most strongly about the issue, the other goes along (it could be vacations, how to handle kid issue, etc). We each have strengths and weaknesses and we should work together as a team.

According to the temple covenants, a woman follows her husband as he makes righteous decisions only. If they are not "righteous" she has no obligation.

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

I think the issue has always been important and I hope the discussion never goes away because I am constantly surrounded by confusion over it. Today alone I am the front lines of two marriages breaking up. It is devastating to watch this happening and I think the discussion of what role women should be playing in their marriages is as/more critical than ever. I counsel women all the time and want to make sure that what I tell them is true.

The scriptures that I posted above are in stark contrast to the romance novels and the movies. We women are surrounded by people telling us that we can have it all and that we should never give in if something is important to us. Also princesses.... ewww. Anyway I grew up in a world filled with post feminist chaos. I think the generations of women are increasingly confused about what they should expect from marriage and what they will have to put into it.

I think this topic may be more relevant than ever if what I am seeing in is any indication of the warping of women's minds. Only moments ago I finished up a discussion with an LDS woman who's views on marriage will surly lead to divorce.

What I think matters because I am influencing many women. I am seeking others input because I want to make sure what I tell them is doctrine based rather than the opinions of the world. I think that scripture in Isaiah is so much more critical of modern women than we realize. (Isaiah 3:12) The more I learn the more I have come to believe that we are not a little off the mark; we are WAY off!

And to the single men on this board... I may get to your future wife before you do so speak up

[karend77captain of 100]

There was a whole thread going on why singles wards were failing and got into various discussions of what men and women expect of each other....that will give you a good idea what the men on the forum think.

Scriptures should always be taken in context of their time. Modern revelation should take precedence (sp?) over ancient scriptures. Here is a link to the topic of Womanhood per the General Authorities of our day think:

https://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp? ... 94610aRCRD

[Deborah000captain of 100]

I think happiness in marriage comes from putting the other person's needs first.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

I want this kind of love:

Elder Richard G. Scott, Gen. Conf. Apr 2009
http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2009/04/temple-worship-the-source-of-strength-and-power-in-times-of-need?lang=eng

Fourteen years ago the Lord decided it was not necessary for my wife to live any longer on the earth, and He took her to the other side of the veil. I confess that there are times when it is difficult not to be able to turn and talk to her, but I do not complain. The Lord has allowed me, at important moments in my life, to feel her influence through the veil.

What I am trying to teach is that when we keep the temple covenants we have made and when we live righteously in order to maintain the blessings promised by those ordinances, then come what may, we have no reason to worry or to feel despondent.

I know that I will have the privilege of being with that beautiful wife, whom I love with all my heart, and with those children who are with her on the other side of the veil because of the ordinances that are performed in the temple. What a blessing to have once again on the earth the sealing authority, not only for this mortal life but for the eternities. I am grateful that the Lord has restored His gospel in its fulness, including the ordinances that are required for us to be happy in the world and to live everlastingly happy lives in the hereafter.

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

I appreciate the comments so far but I think I have been too obscure in what I am getting at. That scripture in Isaiah (and the other at the top) are a condemnation to the modern woman. I have come to believe that the women of the church are every bit as corrupt as the men we condemn. I am tired of hearing the sisters talk about men and porn and ignore the feminism that invaded and remained in the church. Those scriptures talk about a type of woman that is rare or non-existent now. Todays woman is more like a man than a woman. It takes more than a dress and makeup to make a woman.

All this talk of equality and I think women have abandoned the nature that should be ours. We are not sweet, kind, temperate, lovely, hardworking, generous, nurturers. We are instead haughty, disdainful, manipulative, disrespectful, callous, greedy, gossipy, loud, selfish, whiny and we are fully bitchy. We boss men around like they still need mommies, take over situations that would be better served by the men, we work outside the home and abandon our husbands and children, we are worldly and vain.

I am not interested in starting a shallow topic about how men are the cause of all the problems in the world. I think it is us sisters that have caused this problem and us sisters that must fix it. I do not think that we are doing ourselves any good by pretending to a virtue we do not posses. If we are to do our part to fix the world we need to stop spouting the worldly nonsense that we are the victims of men and start getting ourselves back on track.

So the question remains....what are we supposed to be?



P.S. Having been all of those negative things myself recently, I am in no position to claim any high roads etc. I just think we women need to start recognizing ourselves in the scriptures and working on being what God hopes we will be not what WE/the world thinks we should be.

[Stella Solariscaptain of 1,000]

Alpine, I agree with everything you just said. The "guide", if you will, that I've always liked to look at as a goal of what a truly Godly woman is like is found mostly in Proverbs 31 -

1. Faith - A Virtuous Woman serves God with all of her heart, mind, and soul. She seeks His will for her life and follows His ways. (Proverbs 31: 26, Proverbs 31: 29 – 31, Matthew 22: 37, John 14: 15, Psalm 119: 15

2. Marriage – A Virtuous Woman respects her husband. She does him good all the days of her life. She is trustworthy and a helpmeet. (Proverbs 31: 11- 12, Proverbs 31: 23, Proverbs 31: 28, 1 Peter 3, Ephesians 5, Genesis2: 18)

3. Mothering - A Virtuous Woman teaches her children the ways of her Father in heaven. She nurtures her children with the love of Christ, disciplines them with care and wisdom, and trains them in the way they should go. (Proverbs 31: 28, Proverbs 31: 26, Proverbs 22: 6, Deuteronomy 6, Luke 18: 16)

4. Health – A Virtuous Woman cares for her body. She prepares healthy food for her family. (Proverbs 31: 14 – 15, Proverbs 31: 17, 1 Corinthians 6: 19, Genesis 1: 29, Daniel 1, Leviticus 11)

5. Service - A Virtuous Woman serves her husband, her family, her friends, and her neighbors with a gentle and loving spirit. She is charitable. (Proverbs 31: 12, Proverbs 31: 15, Proverbs 31: 20, 1 Corinthians 13: 13)

6. Finances - A Virtuous Woman seeks her husband’s approval before making purchases and spends money wisely. She is careful to purchase quality items which her family needs. (Proverbs 31: 14, Proverbs 31: 16, Proverbs 31: 18, 1 Timothy 6: 10, Ephesians 5: 23, Deuteronomy 14: 22, Numbers 18: 26)

7. Industry – A Virtuous Woman works willingly with her hands. She sings praises to God and does not grumble while completing her tasks. (Proverbs 31: 13, Proverbs 31: 16, Proverbs 31: 24, Proverbs 31: 31, Philippians 2: 14)

8. Homemaking – A Virtuous Woman is a homemaker. She creates an inviting atmosphere of warmth and love for her family and guests. She uses hospitality to minister to those around her. (Proverbs 31: 15, Proverbs 31: 20 – 22, Proverbs 31: 27, Titus 2: 5, 1 Peter 4: 9, Hebrews 13: 2)

9. Time - A Virtuous Woman uses her time wisely. She works diligently to complete her daily tasks. She does not spend time dwelling on those things that do not please the Lord. (Proverbs 31: 13, Proverbs 31: 19, Proverbs 31: 27, Ecclesiastes 3, Proverbs 16: 9, Philippians 4:8 )

10. Beauty – A Virtuous Woman is a woman of worth and beauty. She has the inner beauty that only comes from Christ. She uses her creativity and sense of style to create beauty in her life and the lives of her loved ones. (Proverbs 31: 10Proverbs 31: 21 – 22, Proverbs 31: 24 -25, Isaiah 61: 10, 1 Timothy 2: 9, 1 Peter 3: 1 – 6)

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies...

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

Todays woman is more like a man than a woman. It takes more than a dress and makeup to make a woman.

All this talk of equality and I think women have abandoned the nature that should be ours. We are not sweet, kind, temperate, lovely, hardworking, generous, nurturers. We are instead haughty, disdainful, manipulative, disrespectful, callous, greedy, gossipy, loud, selfish, whiny and we are fully bitchy. We boss men around like they still need mommies, take over situations that would be better served by the men, we work outside the home and abandon our husbands and children, we are worldly and vain.

I am not interested in starting a shallow topic about how men are the cause of all the problems in the world. I think it is us sisters that have caused this problem and us sisters that must fix it. I do not think that we are doing ourselves any good by pretending to a virtue we do not posses. If we are to do our part to fix the world we need to stop spouting the worldly nonsense that we are the victims of men and start getting ourselves back on track.

So the question remains....what are we supposed to be?
.

I agree. I have found that there really is only one answer to this propblem. And no surprise here, it is the answer to all of our problems. I once heard a wise man ask a group of single LDS's what was the single most important thing they should be seeking after at this point in their lives. Of course the most common answer was a righteous spouse. He said that while that is a good thing, it is not the most important thing. The most important thing was of course their Savior. Some disagreed with him .

My philosophy is that the Savior is the answer to ALL of our problems. I have found that if I am truly seeking him out, to know him, to come to him, then I behave much better. There are no real problems in my marriage, with my kids, my family, my friends, etc. I have found that the holy ghost really will tell us all things which we should do. We will know exactly when to give in and let something go. We will know exactly when to stand our ground. We will have to power to say "I'm sorry"(not an easy thing for me), even if we feel like we are not wrong.

I have found that everything about married life is much better when we involve the Savior individually(I'm not just talking about lip service here). Everything. Our friendship is deeper, our conversations are more meaningful, we are much less selfish, sex is better, being home together is a joy. Our kids can feel it.

I think roles are important. I think satan tries very hard to get us to fight our roles. I do not think that a man is more important in any way than a woman. I have sons and daughters. I feel equally toward all of them. I think Christ is the perfect example of what a marriage should be. He is the husband and we are the wife. He sacrifices all for us. He does everything for us. We obey him, we love him.

There is a reason that men are stronger than women. Men need to protect the woman/women they love. A woman needs to have a man that will protect her. It is very old fashioned in a way, but I think that it is right. Christ is our protector. He will fight our battles. He will suffer every imaginable pain for our benefit. If you can find a man who will do that for his wife and children, and a woman who will let him (actually expect it of him), then I think you will find a marriage that has the potential to become eternal. You will find a very happy marriage.

Stella, great list btw.

[Marycaptain of 100]

.

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

The "guide", if you will, that I've always liked to look at as a goal of what a truly Godly woman is like is found mostly in Proverbs 31 -

Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies...

I have spent my whole life looking and I have only found one so far! And unless the price of Rubies have hugely increase, her price is highly underrated. The Messiah died for the world, but I would guess when he went thought the whole ordeal, He was laying is life down besides the desire to returning back into His Fathers presence with glory, He thought of His few wives who had exemplified these attributes!

Please forgive the plural aspects of what I am posting if it offends your sense abilities.

The PATRIARCHAL FAMILY STANDARDS and RULES of WISDOM
of CELESTIAL MARRIAGE

The women's portion:

Table of Contents

FEMALE’S STANDARDS - Rules for Females ............... 5
Ninth Rule – The Woman’s Part ........................ 5
Tenth Rule – The Bride’s Part ........................ 5
Eleventh Rule - The Wife’s Part ...................... 6
Twelfth Rule – The Mother’s Part ..................... 6
Thirteenth Rule – The Matriarch’s Part ............... 6
Fourteenth Rule - The Priestess’s Part ............... 6
Fifteenth Rule – The Queen’s Part .................... 7
Sixteenth Rule – The Sisterhood’s Part ............... 7

FEMALE’S STANDARDS - Rules for Females

Ninth Rule – The Woman’s Part: You covenant to first dedicate all your time and talents to the building up of the Kingdom of God, not withholding even your hearts desire, as He shall direct you through the Ha Qadowsh Kowl and the counsel that He has or will ordain. Next seek to develop those talents He has blessed you with, that you might prepare all needful skills to make a good Wife and Mother to your future Children or His Children, as God may bless you. Now remember, no woman should unite herself in marriage with any man unless she has first received personal revelation to do so. You must be fully resolved to submit yourself wholly to his counsel, and to covenant unto the Lord to let him govern as your eternal, temporal and spiritual head. It is far better for you to not to be united with him in the sacred bonds of eternal union, than to rebel against the divine order of Family Government, instituted for a higher salvation. For if you altogether turn therefrom, you will receive a greater condemnation. However, when the time has fully come and it is time for you to join your eternal Family, seek the Holy Anointed opinion and counsel, the one who holds the Sealing Keys of Elijah. By this method, you might be better able to have it revealed that this union is to be sealed for time and all eternity. For without first receiving this blessing, by revelation, you may find that you were not his, nor available and that obtaining a Sealing to this Man was never a possibility.

Tenth Rule – The Bride’s Part: When you have obtained your eternal King, Lord, and Husband, do not suppose that he must already be perfect in all things. For this cannot be expected of most Telestial Beings here, whether a male or female, young in age or old, never married before or not or already with more than one Wife, and the very old or of course, the relatively young in spirit. If you are young and inexperienced in the cares and vicissitudes of a married life, this will only make different and other challenges. It should be remembered that, as the weaker vessel, you are given to him, who is the stronger. He is to nurture, cherish, and protect you, as you are to nurture, cherish, and sustain him. He is to be your head, your Patriarch, and your Savior. You are to be taught, receive instruction, and counsel with your Husband in all things relating to Family Government, and the welfare and happiness of you and your Children. Therefore, realize the weighty responsibility now placed upon you, as a Help Meet unto your Husband. Also study diligently the disposition of your Husband, that you may know how to counsel him in wisdom for his good and the good of the Family.

Eleventh Rule - The Wife’s Part: The Wife’s first responsibility is to sustain her Husband, in righteousness. This does not mean that she has the right to judge whether it is a righteous course that he has chosen to head. But this responsibility does not remove her agency to not follow his counsel when she knows that the path he has chosen is contrary to the written word of God in defining evil acts. When she removes herself from obedience, she then unveils herself from the responsibility of her Husband from carrying her sins in regards to this one instance. However, she will ultimately be judged, by the Lord, as to whether she keeps her covenants or not by the Lord. She is also responsible for sustaining her Husband when he is commanded through revelation to take another Wife or Wives. It is also your responsibility to help your Husband find a sister Wife for you. When that is accomplished, you are to be a loving, kind Sister Wife unto her. Always be respectful to all your Husband’s other Wives, as they are your Sister’s in the Gospel.

Twelfth Rule – The Mother’s Part: Let each Mother teach her Children to honor and love their Father, and to respect his teachings and counsels. How frequently it is the case, when Fathers undertake to correct their Children, Mothers will interfere in the presence of the Children. This has a very evil tendency in many respects. First, it destroys the oneness of feeling which should exist between Husband and Wife. Secondly, it weakens the confidence of the Children in the Father, and emboldens them to disobedience. Thirdly, it creates strife and discord. And lastly, it is rebelling against the Order of Family Government, established by divine wisdom. If the Mother supposes the Father too severe, let her not mention this in the presence of the Children, but she can express her feelings to him while alone by themselves. Thus the Children will not see any division between them. For Husband and Wives to be disagreeable and to contend, and quarrel, is a great evil. And to do these things in the presence of their Children, is a still greater evil. Therefore, if a Husband and his Wives will quarrel and destroy their own happiness, let them have pity upon their Children, and not destroy them by their pernicious examples.

Thirteenth Rule – The Matriarch’s Part: You shalt always remember that you are the role model for all your Husband’s other Wives (if any), all Children (if any), as well as your Children’s Children to the third and fourth generation. A Matriarch is not just a church calling but is the reverse, a calling from God to administer to one’s Family or personal Kingdom. Patriarchal Order is the Order of Heaven and will be how Zion is organized and brought forth. The Matriarchal Order has its place and is an integral part of a proper functioning Family or Kingdom. When a Family gathers, it is the Matriarch, or Matriarchal Mothers, who will organize and gather the members of the Family. The Matriarch of each Family is responsible to the Lord for all their posterity only in as far as the Patriarch has delegated responsibilities to her. These responsibilities could include education, health, welfare or other obligations to her posterity. Matriarchs are the role model for all female children specifically, but they are also role models for male Children as well. Matriarchs should exemplify the heart and soul of the Family. They make a house a home and should work towards developing a refuge of peace and tranquility within that home.

Fourteenth Rule – The Priestess’s Part: You covenant to not speak critical or in disrespect of your Husband unto anyone else within the Family for the purpose of prejudicing their minds against him. Additionally, you also covenant to neither speak critical or in disrespect of any other members of the Family to anyone outside the Family, also for the purpose of prejudicing their minds against the Family, or one or more members of the Family. Avoid all hypocrisy; for if you pretend to love your Husband and to honor and respect his Wives, when present, but speak disrespectfully of them when absent, you will be looked upon as a hypocrite, as a tattler, and as a mischief-making woman. You will be shunned as being more dangerous than an open enemy. And what is still more detestable, is to tattle out of the Family, and endeavor to create enemies against those with whom you are connected. Such persons should not only be considered hypocrites, but traitors, and their conduct should be despised by every lover of righteousness. Also remember that there are more ways than one to tattle. It is not always the case that those persons who are the boldest in their accusations that are the most dangerous slanderers and manipulators. But rather more dangerous are such as hypocritically pretend that they do not wish to injure their friends, and at the same time very piously insinuate, in dark, indirect sayings, something that is calculated to leave a very unfavorable prejudice against them. Shun such a spirit as you would the very gates of hell.

Fifteenth Rule – The Queen’s Part: Never seek to prejudice the mind of your Husband against any of his other Wives, for the purpose of exalting yourself in his estimation, lest the evil which you unjustly try to bring upon them, fall with double weight upon your own head. Strive to rise in favor and influence with your Husband by your own merits, and not by magnifying the faults of others. Seek to be a peacemaker in the Family with whom you are associated. If you see the least appearance of division arising, use your utmost efforts to restore union and soothe the feelings of all. Soft and gentle words, spoken in season, will allay contention and strife; whereas, a hasty spirit and harsh language add fuel to the fire already kindled by in sighting rage and increasing violence.

Sixteenth Rule – The Sisterhood’s Part: If you see any of your Husband's Wives sick or in trouble, use every effort to relieve them, and to administer kindness and consolations. Remembering that you, yourself, might come under the same circumstances and would be thankful for their assistance. Endeavor to share each other’s burdens, according to the health, ability, and strength which God has given you. Do not be afraid that you will do more than your share of the domestic labor, or that you will be more kind to them than they are to you. A Family whose time is occupied in the useful and lawful avocations of life, will find no time to go from house to house, tattling and injuring one another and their neighbors; neither will they be so apt to quarrel among themselves. You covenant to avoid all forms of Gossip, whether about your Husband, his other Wife or Wives, or his Children. Gossip is for personal gratification and titillation. It is done to create drama where by one seeks to replace boredom by entertainment from others. This is evil and not of God, and should not be found among those who would be His Daughters. And, in as much as you are able or allowed to, you also covenant to be an emotional, spiritual and encouraging support to your Husband’s Wife or Wives who may be struggling with their relationship in the Family.

Shalom

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

WOW! ask and ye shall receive! The responses are wonderfully overwhelming and I am working on digesting them. I have a few questions in the mean time.

What is "Ruach haQodesh"? Is there a connection with " Ha Qadowsh Kowl"? It seems to be Hebrew but I am not getting any helpful hits on google. Lots of help with pronunciation, nothing explanatory.

And for KoZ where does this guide come from? It generally seems like good advice and if you are in a monogamous relationship then substitute women outside the home and you have a similar effect. That is, women tend to gossip to friends and wardmates etc.

Stella Solaris, that is a great list and I am still looking up all those scriptures! I liked #6 especially because I often wish I had someone to consult with. I get carried away and mess up the finances all the time!

reese, you said "I think roles are important. I think satan tries very hard to get us to fight our roles. I do not think that a man is more important in any way than a woman." I totally agree. Both that no one is more important and that we were encouraged to fight our roles. of course at this point in history I am not even sure what my role IS. lol. I do think it is more like the things posted here and less like the world tells us. Right now I have to play both parts in my world so it is hard not to get confused and harder to let go of ideas I should not have incorporated in my life in the first place.


I had a thought this morning, the phrase "neither marry, nor are given in marriage" is more popular than I would have expected. It popped into my head and I wonder if "marry" vs "given in marriage" depends on the point of view or if that is a gender distinction?

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

WOW! ask and ye shall receive! The responses are wonderfully overwhelming and I am working on digesting them. I have a few questions in the mean time.

What is "Ruach haQodesh"? Is there a connection with " Ha Qadowsh Kowl"? It seems to be Hebrew but I am not getting any helpful hits on google. Lots of help with pronunciation, nothing explanatory.

And for KoZ where does this guide come from? It generally seems like good advice and if you are in a monogamous relationship then substitute women outside the home and you have a similar effect. That is, women tend to gossip to friends and wardmates etc.

Stella Solaris, that is a great list and I am still looking up all those scriptures! I liked #6 especially because I often wish I had someone to consult with. I get carried away and mess up the finances all the time!

reese, you said "I think roles are important. I think satan tries very hard to get us to fight our roles. I do not think that a man is more important in any way than a woman." I totally agree. Both that no one is more important and that we were encouraged to fight our roles. of course at this point in history I am not even sure what my role IS. lol. I do think it is more like the things posted here and less like the world tells us. Right now I have to play both parts in my world so it is hard not to get confused and harder to let go of ideas I should not have incorporated in my life in the first place.


I had a thought this morning, the phrase "neither marry, nor are given in marriage" is more popular than I would have expected. It popped into my head and I wonder if "marry" vs "given in marriage" depends on the point of view or if that is a gender distinction?

Gava = Pronounced Gaw-vah, meaning ‘to breathe without’, to die,
to give up the Ghost, perish, dead. [1478]
Ha = Pronounced Haw, meaning ‘Lo’, behold, even lo. [1887,
1888]
Ruwach = Pronounced Roo-akh, meaning wind by resemblance breathe
or 'Spirit'. [7307]
Qadowsh = Pronounced Kaw-dowshe, meaning God, an Angel, ‘Holy (One),
a Saint’. [6918 6942, 6944]

Holy Ghost is in Hebrew [Ha Qadowsh Gava or Qadowsh Gava], and the Holy Spirit is in Hebrew is [Ha Qadowsh Ruwach or Qadowsh Ruwach]. So, what is "Ruach haQodesh"? In the English Ruach means 'Spirit' has many differing meanings and connotations, but commonly refers to the non-corporeal essence of a being or entity. So, Ruach haQodesh would literally be 'Spirit Lo Holy (One) or Angel'.

Thank you for pointing out my error? I was enlightened.

Originally "The 27 Rules of Celestial Marriage"
By Apostle Orson Pratt
From The Seer I [November 1853]: 173-76; 1 [December 1853]: 183-87

I felt he had a bias against women in his manner and tone, so I rewrote them. I just posted the women's portion here.

Shalom

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

Alpine,

I have been researching and writing on this topic for many years. It is indeed interesting to hear the varied and sometimes disturbing responses to this topic. Excuse me for the long post but there is so much to say regarding this issue. Women in society need to stop blaming the men for everything!

Feminism though might have originally been thought of as a great step for women turned out to be what has made us with even less ‘power’ then we had before. I found the following on a blog I frequent and it clearly shows the disconnect. This was taken from Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955.

1. Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

2. Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary people.

3. Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

4. Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dust cloth over the tables.

5. Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

6. Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

7. Be happy to see him.

8. Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

9. Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

10. Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you. Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

11. Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

12. Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

13. Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom. Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

14. Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

15. Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.

16. A good wife always knows her place.

LINK: http://j-walk.com/other/goodwife/images ... eguide.gif

Here’s an excerpt of the “modern” Good Wife’s guide that someone had written online. This shows the feminist attitude towards men and womens roles.

1. Be sure he has good, easy to follow directions to the quality restaurants that deliver curbside. This way when he arrives home he’ll have exactly what he wants for dinner and it will be ready when he arrives and you get fed too. You can be a dear and call in the order. We know how he doesn’t like to do that.

2. Prepare yourself…a good cocktail will work.

3. Be a little gay (we now know this means happy) The cocktail will relax you and you’ll appear to be happy when he arrives

4. Clear away clutter today this means turn the computer off and the tv on and kick stuff out of the way to make a straight path to the tv. That’s all he’ll notice.

5. Be happy to see him.. This may take several cocktails.

6. Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him….more cocktails.

7. Listen to him. This should be getting easy now after several cocktails.

8. He’s coming home with a great dinner and if he’s late make sure he knows how to use the microwave to reheat; if he really comes home late and without dinner have your dinner delivered and eat without him (just be sure he pays for your dinner when he does get home). No need to try to understand his world of strain, you were out there all day too.

Women over the last 50+ years have successfully turned our men into the weaker counterpart. They have not given men a reason to continue to be a MAN. We’ve successfully caused our own demise and now we are paying the price. I look at it this way after years of us putting them down they’ve finally said you know what you want equality here you go! Take it! Why should any man bother to be A MAN when we do not respect them! They should come home to peace and happiness and a home cooked meal. We should take a lesson from the women before the 60s because they were women who fulfilled their roles as wives and mothers. Women today do not have more freedom instead we have successfully put ourselves in captivity and we have no one to blame but ourselves. Women today come off angry, bitter, hateful, disrespectful, and unappreciative.

Women should support their husband in righteous decisions. We will not always agree but you both play a huge part in the relationship. Without the other there is no US rather it’s all about ME. That’s not what HF expects of us.

"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God." 1 corinthians 11:3 KJV

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

I would guess everyone in here has heard and seen 'Fireproof' the soundtrack and done the 'Love Dare' book? If not it is worth your time.

But I doubt most have ever heard of or read, 'Created to be His Help Meet', by Debi Pearl. Look at it on their website, www.nogreaterjoy.org. They have a few other books that are very good. I also have 'To Train up a Child', by Michael and Debi Pearl.

Not that Christians have as much light to rely upon but the have enough!

Shalom

[Alpinecaptain of 100]

Well I keep coming back here to post something but I reread what has been said and get to thinking.... then before I know it I have no time left! So here is another question. How do you implement these things? I mean lets say you were raised with a bad example and you are not married so there is no mirroring of any kind. Any practical ideas about figuring out how you come across and how to fix it?

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

Well I keep coming back here to post something but I reread what has been said and get to thinking.... then before I know it I have no time left! So here is another question. How do you implement these things? I mean lets say you were raised with a bad example and you are not married so there is no mirroring of any kind. Any practical ideas about figuring out how you come across and how to fix it?

Have you seen 'Fireproof' the soundtrack and read the 'Love Dare' book? If not it is worth your time even if you have no one to do it with. But I think you could find a good friend to stand in if you really wanted to.

Look up on Library loan or buy the book, 'Created to be His Help Meet', by Debi Pearl. Look at it on their website, www.nogreaterjoy.org. If you lived close I have two copies. I would loan you one!

Shalom

[adifferingviewHi, I'm new.]

What is woman? As a man with a differing view here is how I see Her. I think of my precious mother, my wonderful wife and my sisters. I think of Mother Eve, my beautiful Mother in Heaven when she fell to earth with our Father in Heaven Adam and how she had the brains so had to goad him into action. I think of the Virgin Mary and the fact of the mother of our savior and how she was so special to fulfill that position. I think of Joseph Smith and how I believe he is Third in autority over this earth or the Holy Ghost or the Testator testifying of the Father and Son. But then I do the math and get a surprise. Joseph Smith adds to 7 and Holy Spirit adds to 7 so in Hebrew these words are interchangable and Holy Ghost adds to 3 which represents a camel (in Hebrew) which symbolizes a pregnant women because of the way the camel holds its water. This makes sense because in Hebrew it depends on the spelling whether it is male or female. It also makes sense in the fact that the Holy Ghost overshadowed Mary and she concieved. In the temple the men perform the endowments for men and women for women for obvious reasons. So the Holy Ghost in this case has to be Mother Eve. She washes and anoints Mary (so in this case the Holy Ghost cannot be a man) and endows her and introduces Mary at the veil, knocks three times and places the hand of Mary into the hand of Adam He brings her through the veil and they go the the city of Enoch and she conceives the Son. Adam an exalted man then returns her to her mortal husband to have other children in mortality. Now to me let us see the head Godhead. It has to be Father, Mother and Son or creation would not take place if we leave out the woman. Now add the numerical value of the words Garden of Eden (g=7, a=1, r=18, etc.) and you get 8. Now add Womb (w=23 etc.) and you get 8 so they interchange now with this new understanding reread the scriptures. (Earth and altar add to 52 or 7 so interchange) The Garden of Eden or the Womb are the same so a woman comes into this telestial relm as a terrestrial being and the number 8 is the Christ number and he administers that kingdom so the womb (watched over by the Christ) is so special and sacred as man's first abode on earth. Now look at the pyramid of Giza, a temple of the Lord built by Seth, main builder and designer Enoch and finished by Shem and or Abraham. What you see now is the representation and symbol of man (we men are the enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of satan) , but over that pyramid is an upside down pyramid the symbol of the woman so she is Our umbylical cord connecting us to the Creator, first our mother then our wife, she is on a pedestal and that pedestal is her husband for he is to keep her skirts clean and return her and her children to Father and Mother in heaven clean and unspotted from the sins of this world. If we put the women in a place of taking life (like the military or police or abortion) our connection to the creator is cut for she is tumbled out of her place and then destruction comes. Now let us go to the parable of the good samaritan. We know this is Christ who comes upon us men the warriors beaten and wounded nigh unto death from doing battle with Satan keeping him from stealing the Garden to give his one third followers mortal bodies so the Savior picks us up after the wicked priesthood leaders pass us by and delivers us to the inn keeper and pays the dept. So who is the inkeeper? My sweet Wife who nurtures, feeds and heels me and returns me to the battle Spiritualy refurbished with the heeling in her wings. She is the help-meet she is to help prepare me to meet the Father face to face as one man speaks to another and it cannot be done without her. In the Egyptian temple ceremony she covenants with me that she will bear the children if I bear her sins unto the third or forth generation. Each generation being 7 thousand years. Some where in the eternities I will pay for her childrens sins in return for her bearing the children. [The sacrament prayers are male (bread) and female (wine) for she remembers her lord (husband) and he takes upon himself the name of christ to redeem her children]. We come into this wolrd by spirit, water and blood of mother and we enter the next life by spirit, water and blood of Christ. She must be protected and hidden so to speak to keep Satan from stealing the Adam's Garden. Can I hold her back? NO! If I do not live up to my priesthood covenants with Father and the Son or mistreat her she is free to leave me and go to a man who is and she does not need a divorce to do so. Look at Joseph Smith and Zina where he receives a revelation that he is to marry her for she was with him in the pre-existance but she marries Henry and has two children but latter leaves him for her real husband going to Joseph who is more faithful and has a higher priesthood there by obtaining a greater ressurrection for her and her children. Can she hold me back? No! I can also obtain a greater ressurrection. If we still held to the higher laws and teachings restored by Joseph Smith you sisters problems would be solved as you and your children will go to a man who is keeping his priesthood covenants if your present husband is not. Who of you sisters out there do not want to see your children returned to Heavenly Father and Mother. Men beware how you treat your wives, mothers and sisters and children, for they are the future Queens of the Kingdom do not do anything that will cause you to lose them in the eternities, be about your duties and take special care of the Garden. Heber C. Kimball entered a priesthood meeting in SLC in 1857 and told the men to have a 7 year supply of food for a thousand women and there children for the day was coming that there would be a thousand women to every man in the valley. Not because of plural marriage but because the women will be more faithful and because of the devestating war that will take most of the men because they have not kept their covenants, or have to do the fighting in the war coming. Men be faithful to your Savior and to your wives and children treat them like the Queens and daughters of God they are and may God bless you sisters to see what Mary and Ruth and Eve and Sarah saw. You Ladies are so special. I hope you understand this and are not offended but you ladies belong on a pedestal. I would like to discuss further if I hopefully have not offended anyone. How will we men measure up when we face our wife and children on the judgment day? In other words gents we have to catch up to her as always. Are we keeping our end of the bargain? .

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

I think happiness in marriage comes from putting the other person's needs first.

Wow, that needs to get more attention in Relief Society meetings.

[Called to Servecaptain of 1,000]

I have so many thoughts on this topic, but I'll restrain myself to sharing only one. Do we really think about what it means for a woman to be given to a man in marriage?

First of all, who gives the woman to the man? The Lord does. Does the Lord ever force anyone to do something against their will? Is not freedom of choice the ideal that the Lord and all His followers fought for in our former lives? Then how can the Lord give the woman to the man? He cannot force her to give herself to her husband.

The Lord can only give the woman to the man if the woman has first given herself to the Lord.

We are married and sealed here on earth, but this means nothing in heaven until our marriages are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you think the Lord is going to give one of His precious daughters eternally to a man who does not understand her worth or who is not qualified to live a Celestial life? We should not take lightly the idea of the woman being given to the man. He must qualify to have her as his wife.

The truth is always backwards from what we naturally believe. We have a tendency to believe that because woman is given to man, she belongs to him and he is the ruler over her. But this is not true. The Lord says the leader must be the servant. The person who loses his life gains it. Therefore, it would seem to me that the man who gives himself to his wife and makes himself the servant of his wife is the one who will gain her, who will qualify for the Lord to give her to him. So he who has given himself to his wife is the one who will be given her. Therefore, there will be no inequality in marriage and the wife will enjoy the same privileges as her husband.

I believe that in order to do so, both the woman and the man have to overcome what are perhaps the most basic natural tendencies that they have. This is only possible to obtain through the changes available to us through the atonement of Christ. Without Christ, there can be no marriage.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

[WaitingOnTheLordcaptain of 10]

I have so many thoughts on this topic, but I'll restrain myself to sharing only one. Do we really think about what it means for a woman to be given to a man in marriage?

First of all, who gives the woman to the man? The Lord does. Does the Lord ever force anyone to do something against their will? Is not freedom of choice the ideal that the Lord and all His followers fought for in our former lives? Then how can the Lord give the woman to the man? He cannot force her to give herself to her husband.

The Lord can only give the woman to the man if the woman has first given herself to the Lord.

We are married and sealed here on earth, but this means nothing in heaven until our marriages are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you think the Lord is going to give one of His precious daughters eternally to a man who does not understand her worth or who is not qualified to live a Celestial life? We should not take lightly the idea of the woman being given to the man. He must qualify to have her as his wife.

The truth is always backwards from what we naturally believe. We have a tendency to believe that because woman is given to man, she belongs to him and he is the ruler over her. But this is not true. The Lord says the leader must be the servant. The person who loses his life gains it. Therefore, it would seem to me that the man who gives himself to his wife and makes himself the servant of his wife is the one who will gain her, who will qualify for the Lord to give her to him. So he who has given himself to his wife is the one who will be given her. Therefore, there will be no inequality in marriage and the wife will enjoy the same privileges as her husband.

I believe that in order to do so, both the woman and the man have to overcome what are perhaps the most basic natural tendencies that they have. This is only possible to obtain through the changes available to us through the atonement of Christ. Without Christ, there can be no marriage.

Thank you for sharing this.

[Called to Servecaptain of 1,000]

Thanks, Heir, it came from the Lord. He taught me as I wrote. It was awesome. I finally understand the concept of "giving" in marriage.

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

Thanks, Heir, it came from the Lord. He taught me as I wrote. It was awesome. I finally understand the concept of "giving" in marriage.

I think we have very different Lord's as this is not sound doctrine from my Lord (Adonai)! I disagree with you on so many levels. As I read the scriptures, resight the covenants, and pray for understanding: the man is to follow Elohim, hence to serve His Lord or Adonai, as the women is to serve her Lord or husband. They are co-equal in serving but the path to Godhood is not through following the women. Adam tried that once and as I recall that did not work out so well for him. Does that mean that my wife or wives are not wiser than me? No! They always give we wisdom continually, as that is where the women resides in the tree of Life, but it is up to me to get the revelation of what Adonai would have me do. When I fail to do this, and I do what I want, against by beloved mate(s) counsel, I get my ETERNAL nose rub... from her/them.
That is rubbed in it and never forgotten.

I have so many thoughts on this topic, but I'll restrain myself to sharing only one. Do we really think about what it means for a woman to be given to a man in marriage?

First of all, who gives the woman to the man? The Lord does. Does the Lord ever force anyone to do something against their will? Is not freedom of choice the ideal that the Lord and all His followers fought for in our former lives? Then how can the Lord give the woman to the man? He cannot force her to give herself to her husband.

The Lord can only give the woman to the man if the woman has first given herself to the Lord.

We are married and sealed here on earth, but this means nothing in heaven until our marriages are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you think the Lord is going to give one of His precious daughters eternally to a man who does not understand her worth or who is not qualified to live a Celestial life? We should not take lightly the idea of the woman being given to the man. He must qualify to have her as his wife.

The truth is always backwards from what we naturally believe. We have a tendency to believe that because woman is given to man, she belongs to him and he is the ruler over her. But this is not true. The Lord says the leader must be the servant. The person who loses his life gains it. Therefore, it would seem to me that the man who gives himself to his wife and makes himself the servant of his wife is the one who will gain her, who will qualify for the Lord to give her to him. So he who has given himself to his wife is the one who will be given her. Therefore, there will be no inequality in marriage and the wife will enjoy the same privileges as her husband.

I believe that in order to do so, both the woman and the man have to overcome what are perhaps the most basic natural tendencies that they have. This is only possible to obtain through the changes available to us through the atonement of Christ. Without Christ, there can be no marriage.

[Called to Servecaptain of 1,000]

How does the man follow the Lord? What is the Lord's work?

If a man is to do the Lord's work, he must work to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man. How does he do this? If he is following the Lord, he must do it the same way the Lord does, by begetting children.

Whose burden is it most to bear and rear children in marriage? Whose role is it to support her in her role?

The truth is so clear and plain that it is amazing that not every person on earth can see it and yet they don't. The man's job as provider is to support the woman and the children. Did you get that? I'll repeat it just in case. The man's role as provider of the family is a role of servitude and support toward the wife and children. One more time, because it is really, really important. The man makes money and provides for his family because he is their servant. That is the physical portion of his job to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man.

Somehow in our confused, carnal world we've got it turned around and come to believe that it is the man's work of providing goods for his family that is important and that therefore the wife is "helping" him. The truth is made so plain and clear by asking one question. For what reason is he doing his work? Because he is supporting his wife and children, particularly the children because they are the reason the wife needs support anyway.

I sure hope we don't have different Lord's, Kingdom of Zion, because I serve the only true and living God. We might interpret His word differently, and that's okay since we are all little children learning and growing. But if you have a different Lord, then I would be real worried about you!

[MsEvacaptain of 100]

I have so many thoughts on this topic, but I'll restrain myself to sharing only one. Do we really think about what it means for a woman to be given to a man in marriage?

First of all, who gives the woman to the man? The Lord does. Does the Lord ever force anyone to do something against their will? Is not freedom of choice the ideal that the Lord and all His followers fought for in our former lives? Then how can the Lord give the woman to the man? He cannot force her to give herself to her husband.

The Lord can only give the woman to the man if the woman has first given herself to the Lord.

We are married and sealed here on earth, but this means nothing in heaven until our marriages are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise. Do you think the Lord is going to give one of His precious daughters eternally to a man who does not understand her worth or who is not qualified to live a Celestial life? We should not take lightly the idea of the woman being given to the man. He must qualify to have her as his wife.

The truth is always backwards from what we naturally believe. We have a tendency to believe that because woman is given to man, she belongs to him and he is the ruler over her. But this is not true. The Lord says the leader must be the servant. The person who loses his life gains it. Therefore, it would seem to me that the man who gives himself to his wife and makes himself the servant of his wife is the one who will gain her, who will qualify for the Lord to give her to him. So he who has given himself to his wife is the one who will be given her. Therefore, there will be no inequality in marriage and the wife will enjoy the same privileges as her husband.

I believe that in order to do so, both the woman and the man have to overcome what are perhaps the most basic natural tendencies that they have. This is only possible to obtain through the changes available to us through the atonement of Christ. Without Christ, there can be no marriage.

I love that!

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

The truth is so clear and plain that it is amazing that not every person on earth can see it and yet they don't. The man's job as provider is to support the woman and the children. Did you get that? I'll repeat it just in case. The man's role as provider of the family is a role of servitude and support toward the wife and children. One more time, because it is really, really important. The man makes money and provides for his family because he is their servant. That is the physical portion of his job to bring to pass the eternal life and immortality of man.

Supporting the Family is not a problem I have, I have been working for 5 months now in North Dakota, and have only been home, taken off six days. I am on call 7 days a week, 24 hour a day.

[Called to Servecaptain of 1,000]

Nor do most men. What the problem is is that they don't see the truth. Neither do the women. Both tend to act as though the man has somehow earned the right to lord it over his wife and they think this because the men are the ones bringing home the bacon. I'm speaking of the natural man here. I know most men try their best to be kind and loving toward their wives. Still, they will fail if they don't rely on the Savior to change them to a new creature in this thing.

So the spiritual problem isn't that the men aren't serving their wives, because they are. It's their attitude. Very few men will actually sit around shirking their duty to provide. It's that they don't think it's their role to serve their wives and they think they've earned some sort of exalted status over their wives. I say, they only deserve that exalted status if they have exalted their wives. If they do that, then their authority flows to them naturally, with no force whatsoever.

Get what I'm saying?

I'll try one more time, because it's hard for most people to understand due to the fallen world we are in. You see, in this world we tend to place things in importance over people. So because men work and earn things, we tend to think he's the one doing the greater work. But the woman's work is to "work and earn" people. Or to make babies. (Which has been made to sound utterly derogatory in today's world, but it is the most important work.) It's so important that men go out and pledge a good deal of their lives in order to support their wives in making these new people. Do you get what I'm saying? The men are already serving the women in that capacity. They just don't extend this service to their whole life because they don't realize which job is most important.

Somehow it gets all turned around in our minds and we think that really it's the women helping the men and so people start getting these backwards ideas like it's the woman's job to make sure the man gets all the rest and comfort he needs, while she must give up everything. She is expected to go without sleep, food, relaxation, and so forth, even as she makes sure the man has all these things, and for what purpose? So he can be able to go out and do his work. What work? Earning money.

That's the big mistake.

He's the one who's supposed to be making sure the woman gets all the sleep, food, relaxation, and so forth she needs so that she can do her work. What work? Making babies. Soooo much more important than making money. Because the money is being made to support the babies.

Taking the risk that I'm just beating this to death, I'll relate a story that helps illustrate my point.

My husband was talking on the phone (over the computer so I heard everything) with a wise friend about the problems he was having with me. This friend said something that struck me deeply. He said:

"I used to come home from a hard day's work and want food and rest and get upset when my wife didn't provide these things. Then I realized something very important. Her work is harder than mine. I am the one who needs to help her out."

Wow! I was in awe of this man. He was so wise and humble about his role.

I can't say any more on the subject. I've said all that can be said. If you can't understand, it is because you haven't asked the Lord for understanding. Even though it is so plain and clear, it takes spiritual aid to overcome the natural man (and woman) that wants to convince us that the exact opposite is true.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

"I say, they only deserve that exalted status if they have exalted their wives. If they do that, then their authority flows to them naturally, with no force whatsoever."

Well said Called to Serve. This is the crux of the matter. Women are more than willing to submit to righteous husbands as their husbands submit to the Lord. Women WANT to have husbands who will lead and serve in righteousness. Leaders and Kings are meant to be servants and teachers in the most Heavenly sense. That is what a real King is meant to do. To teach and to serve. And do so by example through gentleness and meekness with love unfeigned. KOZ. I think you maybe have misunderstood what Called to serve has been trying to say. I think you both agree on more than you disagree. It is just a matter of wording. The husband and wife if they are following Christ will seek to serve each other in different ways. They are to be Kings and Queens and Priests and Priestesses. They both seek after the welfare of each other and the family in their respective roles.