Brigham Young: Pioneer Prophet

[iamse7encaptain of 1,000]

New, extensive book coming out in the Fall, about Brigham Young. Some are saying it's the "Rough Stone Rolling" of Brigham Young. Here's an interview with the author. Here is a review. Looks great!

[LikeMember]

New, extensive book coming out in the Fall, about Brigham Young. Some are saying it's the "Rough Stone Rolling" of Brigham Young. Here's an interview with the author. Here is a review. Looks great!

Thanks for posting this. Looks interesting for sure.

Many years ago when I was a deacon I read some things that Brigham Young said that were pretty whacked out and the Spirit made me realize I needed to really be on the lookout for personal philosophies, biases, opinions and understandings and just not blindly accept things from church leaders as truth. Thank goodness for the Spirit.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

New, extensive book coming out in the Fall, about Brigham Young. Some are saying it's the "Rough Stone Rolling" of Brigham Young. Here's an interview with the author. Here is a review. Looks great!

Thanks for posting this. Looks interesting for sure.

Many years ago when I was a deacon I read some things that Brigham Young said that were pretty whacked out and the Spirit made me realize I needed to really be on the lookout for personal philosophies, biases, opinions and understandings and just not blindly accept things from church leaders as truth. Thank goodness for the Spirit.

How many years ago were you a deacon?

[iamse7encaptain of 1,000]

We have very different impressions and opinions of Brigham, then.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

This part concerns me.....for what will come upon the LDS Church if this becomes commonly accepted:

http://mormon-chronicles.blogspot.com/2012/06/review-brigham-young-pioneer-prophet-by.html
From the friendly confines of theological speculations, Turner proceeds to what is probably the climax of Young's life, the dark days of the Utah War and Mountain Meadows Massacre. To set the stage, he recounts the testy relations with territorial officers and several suspicious deaths like those in the Aiken party. After reviewing the evidence in an even-handed matter, Turner concludes on Young's "likely complicity" in the matter. As is the case throughout the narrative, Turner intersperses interesting details—here, he notes several odd dreams of Young's that the heavy stress effected. Drawing on important recent surveys of the matter (particularly Bill MacKinnon's), Turner chronicles Young's march to the edge of the precipice and the inevitably inglorious retreat therefrom. Turner's concise account of the massacre concludes that "there is no satisfactory evidence that Young ordered the massacre" and that "there was no good reason for Young to order a massacre with the potential to focus the full fury of the American government on Utah" but, in the end, "Young bears significant responsibility for what took place."

[LikeMember]

How many years ago were you a deacon?

Over 20 years ago! I still remember going over to my Bishop's house to have my interview where he taught me in greater detail about the Oath and Covenant of the priesthood, about priesthood rights and powers and the duties associated with holding the priesthood, stewardship and about righteous dominion and unrighteous dominion. It was a very spiritually powerful discussion for me personally.

[LikeMember]

We have very different impressions and opinions of Brigham, then.

Maybe on somethings but I am sure we have a lot common impressions and opinions about Brigham too. Tell you the truth I do not even remember what I was reading about Brigham Young, it was over 20 years ago, but I do remember the lesson the Spirit was teaching me!

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

How many years ago were you a deacon?

Over 20 years ago! I still remember going over to my Bishop's house to have my interview where he taught me in greater detail about the Oath and Covenant priesthood, about priesthood powers and the duties associated with holding the priesthood, stewardship and about righteous dominion and unrighteous dominion. It was a very spiritually power discussion for me personally.

Thanks for sharing that Like!

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

Just for the record, Brigham Young never claimed to be a prophet, seer or revelator. He viewed himself merely as a presiding authority over the church. Had one of Joseph's sons stepped up to the task of leading the church, it would have been turned over to him. The presidents who followed viewed themselves similarly. When we arrive at David O. McKay, church presidents became associated with the prophet title. No one between Joseph Smith and McKay did so.

Just for clarification...

[iamse7encaptain of 1,000]

True, but in case people misconstrue his statements about his status as a prophet, it's important that people know he consistently claimed to receive revelation directly from the Lord in his role as prophet over the church and president of the high priesthood.

In my doctrinal teachings I have taught many things not written in any book, ancient or modern, and yet, notwithstanding the many things I have told the people. I have never looked into the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Doctrine and Covenants, or any of our church works to see whether they agreed with them or not. When I have spoken by the power of God and the Holy Ghost, it is truth, it is scripture, and I have no fears but that it will agree with all that has been revealed in every particular. (BY, Deseret News, 6/6/1877)

I could give you revelation as fast as a man could run, I am in the midst of revelation. Do you want more revelation written? Wait till you obey what is already written. (BY, Millennial Star 12 [15 September 1850]: 273-76)

I was anxious to learn from Joseph and the spirit of God. The spirit of revelation that was given to me has revealed to me many things which have been done. (BY, Deseret News, 6/6/1877)

Some have had fears that we had not power to get revelations since the death of Joseph. But I want this subject from this time forth to be forever set at rest. I want this Church to understand from this day henceforth and forever that an apostle is the highest office of authority that there is in the Church and kingdom of God on the earth. From whom did Joseph receive his authority? Just such men as sit around me here (pointing to the Twelve Apostles that sat with him). Peter, James and John were apostles and there was no noise about their being seers and revelators though those gifts were among them. Joseph Smith gave unto me and to my brethren, the Twelve, all the priesthood keys, powers, and authority which he had and those are powers which belong to the apostleship. ... Could we ordain men to authority greater than we hold ourselves? No. (BY, WWJ, 8/14/1847)

The power of God was upon President Young who is made by the power of God a great, good and glorious man and a father indeed to the Church and Kingdom of God. (WWJ 8/21-23/1851)

The people want revelation. This is revelation. If you wanted revelation written, I could write revelations every day about building a temple, digging gold, going to England. I profess to be an Apostle. Every Apostle will have to be a revelator and have revelations if there are thousands, but then if they do their duty and live up to their calling, if not they will have to be removed. But a man that is not an Apostle has not power to stand at the head of the Kingdom of God, hold the keys of the Priesthood and build up and lead the Church of God. The highest authority on the earth is an Apostle. (BY, WWJ, 4/7/1852)

Every man in this room who has a particle of the spirit of God, knows that President Young is a Prophet of God and that God sustains him and he has the Holy Spirit and his doctrines are true, and that he is qualified to lead the people, and he has explained everything so plainly this evening that a child can understand it, and yet it is no evidence to you. Nothing can make an impression upon you; no argument can reach your understanding. (WW to OP, WWJ, 1/27/1860)

I got a revelation that God accepted our offering [at Zion's Camp]. I had the same thing revealed to me twice and that we should not go into Jackson County. ... I will now tell you all and you may write it down that all my preaching by the Holy Ghost is revelation. I told Brother Joseph that he had given us revelation enough to last us 20 years. When that time is out, I can give as good revelation as there is in the Doctrine and Covenants. (BY, WWJ, 1/27/1860)

You know when you have a vision, you can see as well all over your body as out of your eyes. When Joseph had a revelation, he had the eyes of the Lord. He saw as the Lord sees. How did I know what was going on in Washington? I have known what was going on there all the time, and I know what is going on in other people's houses. I know it by the spirit of God; it is revealed to me. (BY, WWJ, January 31, 1861)

At prayer circle, President said: I have asked the Lord what kind of a temple we should build and the answer of the Lord was that He did not make two things alike, and we need not make two temples alike, so we need not look for two temples alike. (BY, WWJ, June 1, 1873)

After the death of Joseph Smith, when it seemed as if every trouble and calamity had come upon the Saints, Brigham Young, who was President of the Twelve, then the presiding Quorum of the Church, sought the Lord to know what they should do, and where they should lead the people for safety; and while they were fasting and praying daily on this subject, President Young had a vision of Joseph Smith, who showed him the mountain that we now call Ensign Peak, immediately north of Salt Lake City, and there was an ensign fell upon that peak, and Joseph said, "Build under the point where the colors fall and you will prosper and have peace." The Pioneers had no pilot or guide; none among them had ever been in the country or knew anything about it. However, they traveled under the direction of President Young until they reached this valley. (George A. Smith, JD 13:85)

Pres. B. Young said that the saying of the Prophets would never be verified unless the House of the Lord be reared in the Tops of the Mountains & the Proud Banner of Liberty wave over the valleys that are within the Mountains & I [B.Y.] know where the spot is & I know how to make this Flag. Jos[eph] sent the colours and said where the colours settled there would be the spot. (recorded in John D. Lee Diary, Jan. 13, 1846)

[dewajackcaptain of 100]

“The story Turner tells in this elegantly written biography will startle and shock many readers. He reveals a Brigham Young more violent and coarse than the man Mormons have known. While lauding his achievements as pioneer, politician, and church leader, the book will require a reassessment of Brigham Young the man.”
—Richard Bushman, author of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

“The story Turner tells in this elegantly written biography will startle and shock many readers. He reveals a Brigham Young more violent and coarse than the man Mormons have known. While lauding his achievements as pioneer, politician, and church leader, the book will require a reassessment of Brigham Young the man.”
—Richard Bushman, author of Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling

Lovely. See #3 in my post in Private Discussion: "3 Grave dangers the Church will face by 2017"

[ajaxcaptain of 1,000]

Here's a review from times and seasons:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... -g-turner/

see footnote 1 on Brighams rejection of a divorce petition. Whoa nellie!

[triple777captain of 100]

Just for the record, Brigham Young never claimed to be a prophet, seer or revelator. He viewed himself merely as a presiding authority over the church. Had one of Joseph's sons stepped up to the task of leading the church, it would have been turned over to him. The presidents who followed viewed themselves similarly. When we arrive at David O. McKay, church presidents became associated with the prophet title. No one between Joseph Smith and McKay did so.

Just for clarification...

no I think you are wrong on all accounts.

[ajaxcaptain of 1,000]

"[After putting the motion for himself to be sustained as 'Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,' the President remarked:] I will say that I never dictated the latter part of that sentence. I will make the remark, because those words in that connection always made feel as though I am called more than I am deserving of. I am Brigham Young, an Apostle of Joseph Smith, and also of Jesus Christ. If I have been profitable to these people, I am glad of it. The brethren call me so; and if it be so, I am glad." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1347.)

"I am not going to interpret dreams; for I don't profess to be such a Prophet as were Joseph Smith and Daniel; but I am a Yankee guesser[.]" (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1306.) "I do not want to skip Joseph, Peter, Jesus, Moses and go to my Father in Heaven. All I ask for is to be guided by the spirit of Joseph, then let others be governed by their head, or priesthood. Joseph enjoyed the priviliges which I never thought I had. Joseph was called of God. I was called of Joseph." (The Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 2, p. 1108.)

and this from Denver's blog:
Brigham Young said this during the debates over who should succeed Joseph as the president: "Did Joseph Smith ordain any man to take his place? He did. Who was it? It was Hyrum..." (Times & Seasons, October 15, 1844, Vol. 5, p. 683.)

This is an interesting fact because Hyrum was not a member of the Quorum of the Twelve at the time he was killed. However, even Brigham Young, who won the initial debate having argued that the twelve should lead, and then ultimately won an election in December 1847 to become the president of the church, acknowledged it was Hyrum's right to succeed Joseph. With Hyrum gone, and without any clear direction to follow, the church elected first the twelve, and then Brigham Young.

Brigham Young was never ordained to be church president. He was elected. The initial offices of Elder, Priest, Teacher, Deacon were elected positions. Brigham Young viewed the office of church president as similarly elected.

He explained how he thought this should operate. Anyone could lead the church. All that was required was an election, then the prayers of the members. Here is the system: "Take any man in this kingdom, and if the people say that they will make him a President, or a Bishop, or elect him to fill any other office, and the faith of the people is concentrated to receive light through that officer or pipe laid by the power of the Priesthood from the throne of God, you might as well try to move the heavens as to receive anything wrong through that conductor. No matter whom you elect for an officer, if your faith is concentrated in him through whom to receive the things which he is appointed to administer in, light will come to you. Let a presiding officer or a Bishop turn away from righteousness, and the Lord Almighty would give him the lock-jaw, if he could not stop his mouth in any other way, or send a fit of numb palsy on him, so that he could not act, as sure as the people over whom he presided were right, that they might not be led astray." (Complete Discourses of Brigham Young, Vol. 3, p. 1379, November 29, 1857; the talk can also found at JD Vol. 6 beginning on p. 93.) In this system, the power of being elected coupled with the members' prayers were enough to always insure the answers you got through that leader were exactly perfect.

This was in the early days when church leaders were elected to office. Church authorities may offer names, but the congregation, stake, or church members elected them to office.

With Hyrum's death, we lost something of great value. If he had outlived Joseph, he would have been the unchallenged church president. His succession would have set the pattern for later church presidents. They each would have chosen their own successors before they died. (See D&C 43: 2-5.)

By the time Brigham Young established the twelve as the seat of power, the pattern was set. Instead of the replacement being chosen by the sitting president through revelation, the senior apostle was presumed to be the next in line. Today's legal structure using the Corporation of the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints the succession is automatic. The corporation's sole member is the longest tenured apostle. This is in place because Hyrum did not outlive Joseph. So we are all affected by the loss of Joseph's brother.
http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2012/ ... art-2.html

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

Here's a review from times and seasons:
http://timesandseasons.org/index.php/20 ... -g-turner/

see footnote 1 on Brighams rejection of a divorce petition. Whoa nellie!

I read the review and I have to honestly say that when I read about the divorce petition, I laughed heartily! It endeared me to the Prophet even more....perhaps because I have been guilty of using that word, too. (not to boast of it!!!)