Gun nuts only

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

"I refuse to answer on the grounds you intend to incriminate me!"

bobBY

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

I would like to know if I have a right to bear a gun on my own property IN UTAH. If so, does it have to be in the open like in a holster on my belt or in my hands? or what conditions make it OK?

How about while driving my car or truck?

Also, does a police officer have a right now to enter my home OR MY PROPERTY without having a search warrant? The Constitution says something about protection of citizens against "unlawful searches and seizures" -- does this really apply today?

1- There are NO prohibitions in UT as to how you may carry on your property.
2- As of a couple years ago in UT, your car became an extension of your house. There are NO restrictions to how you may carry in your car.
3- Search warrants very much apply today. No warrant, no search.

More info:
Open carry is legal in UT without a permit. The firearm must be unloaded if you do not have a Concealed Firearm Permit. Unloaded in UT means no round in the chamber for a semi-auto. You may have a full magazine in the firearm. You may not carry in a school zone without a permit. With a permit you may carry however you see fit. Fully loaded with 47 magazines either concealed or open and in public schools is legal. This only applies to public roads (not in your car) and schools. On private property and out in the hills there are no restrictions to how you can carry. Nobody may carry in federal buildings (post offices etc.).

Only the legislative body of the state has the power to regulate where you may carry. Local county/city regulations prohibiting the carry of firearms above what the state has prohibited is not binding (there are still a bunch of signs in parks which say "No Weapons" which do not have authority). There are "No Weapons" signs up occasionally in such places as hospitals or movie theaters. They are not legally binding. You may carry there, but if asked to leave you must comply; otherwise you are trespassing.

The LDS church has banned carry in their houses of worship. It is an infraction (like a speeding ticket) if you get caught and reported carrying in a church.

Your place of employment cannot legally prohibit you from carrying at work, but they can fire you if you break your company's rules about guns in the workplace. They cannot stop you from leaving your firearm in your car in the parking lot, even if they own the parking lot (except for you unfortunate souls who work on a base where your rights do not apply).

The courts ruled in Lund vs SLC that simply having a firearm is not grounds for police to stop an interrogate. In order for an officer to detain you for questioning, he needs to have RAS (reasonable articulable suspicion) of a crime. In other words, he must be able to reasonably articulate a crime he thinks you have committed, or are about to commit in order to detain you for questioning. Since wearing a firearm isn't a crime, he may not detain you for it. If stopped, simply repeat the phrases "Am I being detained? Am I free to go?" until you are allowed to leave. He does not need to see your CFP and check if the gun is loaded to make sure you are in compliance with the law.

For a more in-depth look at UT code relating to firearms, look here: http://utahconcealedcarry.com/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=2227

I also wholeheartedly recommend Mitch Vilos' book Utah Gun Law 4th Edition

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Very helpful -- thank you OneforFreedom!

[Stella Solariscaptain of 1,000]

The LDS church has banned carry in their houses of worship. It is an infraction (like a speeding ticket) if you get caught and reported carrying in a church.

Steve, does this apply to all LDS Church buildings worldwide, or just in the U.S., or just in Utah? Thanks!

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

The LDS church has banned carry in their houses of worship. It is an infraction (like a speeding ticket) if you get caught and reported carrying in a church.

Steve, does this apply to all LDS Church buildings worldwide, or just in the U.S., or just in Utah? Thanks!

Sorry, everything I cited was Utah specific, except for carrying in Federal buildings which is banned everywhere.

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

Very helpful -- thank you OneforFreedom!

My pleasure!

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

I would like to know if I have a right to bear a gun on my own property IN UTAH. If so, does it have to be in the open like in a holster on my belt or in my hands? or what conditions make it OK?

How about while driving my car or truck?

Also, does a police officer have a right now to enter my home OR MY PROPERTY without having a search warrant? The Constitution says something about protection of citizens against "unlawful searches and seizures" -- does this really apply today?

Yes. No. None. Yes. Yes, but only under certain conditions. And yes.

Also, please everyone, don't use the word RIGHT. Government does not give RIGHTS, only POWERS. Confusing the two can cause a lot of problems. The police do not have a RIGHT to enter your home, only the POWER under certain conditions.

There was supposed to be legislation making Utah a universal conceal carry state. Utah also has a couple of castle laws but you should educate yourself on them because they don't exactly work together. There's was also supposed to be legislation to fix the problem and I'll need to check if its been done or not.

Now go shoot a gun!!! Hoo-ra!

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Thanks, Freedomfighter.

I also came across this --
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qsoY9Vx ... ure=relmfu

-- advice from a lawyer -- exercise your CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT. He explains that the officer may lie to you and trick you into a confession... Hmmmmm.... I can see why the Founders put the fifth amendment into the Bill of Rights!

You're welcome.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Also, please everyone, don't use the word RIGHT. Government does not give RIGHTS, only POWERS. Confusing the two can cause a lot of problems. The police do not have a RIGHT to enter your home, only the POWER under certain conditions.

There was supposed to be legislation making Utah a universal conceal carry state. Utah also has a couple of castle laws but you should educate yourself on them because they don't exactly work together. There's was also supposed to be legislation to fix the problem and I'll need to check if its been done or not.

Now go shoot a gun!!! Hoo-ra!

Yes, good point about rights versus powers.

It would be nice if Utah had universal concealed carry (ie without a license). Isn't that referred to as "Constitutional Carry"? That's one thing I like about visiting Arizona since they recently passed that. I don't conceal carry much, but it was interesting to try and nice to know I don't have to worry so much about where the gun is in my car or in a backpack, etc. In many places it's a dilemma how to carry a pistol on a bicycle or motorcycle with no hard paniers.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Very helpful -- thank you OneforFreedom!

My pleasure!

Yes thank you....that was an excellent summary!

[JerLcaptain of 100]

Dr. Jones I know that your question has been answered, but I thought that I would cross post an attempted entering by two police officers recently. The original post can be found here.

I had an interested experience yesterday and thought I would share this.

I had 2 very friendly cops stop by my home and spoke to my wife. I just happened to be at home that day. So luckily she got me to talk to them. I have left out some details for obvious reasons. But the basic facts are presented below.
The conversation went something like this:

LEOs: Hi - we received some information that we want to verify. Will you give us permission to search your home?
Me: (stepping outside and closed the door) - Why?
LEOs: We are just looking out for you and want to be able to clear up this statement. We have received some information that makes us believe that _______. Will you give us permission? It won't take long.
Me: I don't this this would be a good idea.
LEOs: Are you sure - we are really looking out for you and want to put some closure to this?
Me: No - but thank you for your concern. Goodbye - have a nice day.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Dr. Jones I know that your question has been answered, but I thought that I would cross post an attempted entering by two police officers recently. The original post can be found here.

I had an interested experience yesterday and thought I would share this.

I had 2 very friendly cops stop by my home and spoke to my wife. I just happened to be at home that day. So luckily she got me to talk to them. I have left out some details for obvious reasons. But the basic facts are presented below.
The conversation went something like this:

LEOs: Hi - we received some information that we want to verify. Will you give us permission to search your home?
Me: (stepping outside and closed the door) - Why?
LEOs: We are just looking out for you and want to be able to clear up this statement. We have received some information that makes us believe that _______. Will you give us permission? It won't take long.
Me: I don't this this would be a good idea.
LEOs: Are you sure - we are really looking out for you and want to put some closure to this?
Me: No - but thank you for your concern. Goodbye - have a nice day.

Very well done -- polite but firm in resisting a search. I like the way Tribunal put it -- we have rights (God-given and protected via the Constitution), police have "powers"-- but often their "powers" come only as we give up our rights voluntarily.

Me:No, I don't this this would be a good idea.

[Tribunalcaptain of 1,000]

Very well done -- polite but firm in resisting a search. I like the way Tribunal put it -- we have rights (God-given and protected via the Constitution), police have "powers"-- but often their "powers" come only as we give up our rights voluntarily.

So true and I really wish more people realized this. There's a saying that I use and it goes like this: "Those who do not know their Rights, have no Rights."

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Very well done -- polite but firm in resisting a search. I like the way Tribunal put it -- we have rights (God-given and protected via the Constitution), police have "powers"-- but often their "powers" come only as we give up our rights voluntarily.

So true and I really wish more people realized this. There's a saying that I use and it goes like this: "Those who do not know their Rights, have no Rights."

The trick with our Constitutional rights is that they are quite complex and it is very difficult for even intelligent people to understand them, and unfortunately officers often misunderstand them. There is no education if rights in public school, even though there is constant propaganda about the workings and the virtue of the system.

For example, one confusing area is lawful orders. During a car stop, as I understand it an officer can order you to step out of your car, but he cannot order you to unlock your car. He can order you to spread your arms and legs up against the car and be frisked, but he cannot order you to turn out your pockets.

How is any reasonable person supposed to understand the distinctions there? To make it more fun, try making the distinction when multiple men with guns, sometimes drawn are surrounding you and shouting lies at you to get you "voluntarily" give up your rights.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Very well done -- polite but firm in resisting a search. I like the way Tribunal put it -- we have rights (God-given and protected via the Constitution), police have "powers"-- but often their "powers" come only as we give up our rights voluntarily.

So true and I really wish more people realized this. There's a saying that I use and it goes like this: "Those who do not know their Rights, have no Rights."

The trick with our Constitutional rights is that they are quite complex and it is very difficult for even intelligent people to understand them, and unfortunately officers often misunderstand them. There is no education if rights in public school, even though there is constant propaganda about the workings and the virtue of the system.

For example, one confusing area is lawful orders. During a car stop, as I understand it an officer can order you to step out of your car, but he cannot order you to unlock your car. He can order you to spread your arms and legs up against the car and be frisked, but he cannot order you to turn out your pockets.

How is any reasonable person supposed to understand the distinctions there? To make it more fun, try making the distinction when multiple men with guns, sometimes drawn are surrounding you and shouting lies at you to get you "voluntarily" give up your rights.

They, the police, may even kill someone and then place a gun in their hand so they can claim the person was trying to draw on them. Or they may tase someone because they suddenly had to sneeze and moved.

If they kill a person it's in the name of the law. If any of us have to kill someone because our life was being threatened you or I become the criminal and have a multiple set of charges against us. And yet, whether it is the police or a person defending themselves, it is the same feeling...fear and self preservation. I don't think a badge should allow violent behavior. We may as well take a known street gang and put uniforms and badges on them, it would be the same outcome, only now they are the "good" guys doing all this crap in the line of duty.

If one really wants to get an officer ticked off, just mention the word "profiling." This happened to me. When I mentioned it to a retired police officer he got defensive and asked me "do you really believe officers profile people?" I said "yes, I've seen it happen." I've actually heard people talk about their experiences from this kind of thing when I was actively attending Pre-Paid Legal conferences. Now they call it Legal Shield.

Now if I get stopped by an officer, I can pull out my ID card that states on the back "If it is your intention to question, detain or arrest me, please allow me to call an attorney immediately." And the good thing about it is...I can. On the card is a telephone number for this purpose and I can have an attorney talk to the officer on the spot explaining why I'm being detained. This is a very good way to exercise, defend and keep ones rights without having to say anything that could be used against me.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

You gentlemen may like this web site:

http://www.thearmedcitizen.com

Anyone that wants to talk gun control with me gets directed to that site. It may be a little monotonous for daily reading, but it's a great reference for self-defense news stories.

Gun control...is keeping it true and steady. Right?

[Bobby Lee Swaggercaptain of 50]

Silver Shadow Gilboa Snake Double Barreled AR-15 from Israel
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... rm+Blog%29

DSG Technology/PNW Arms Super-Sniper Ammunition (SSA) Enhanced-Range Rifle Ammo Being Made in the USA
http://www.defensereview.com/dsg-techno ... arters-ba/

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Silver Shadow Gilboa Snake Double Barreled AR-15 from Israel
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... rm+Blog%29

DSG Technology/PNW Arms Super-Sniper Ammunition (SSA) Enhanced-Range Rifle Ammo Being Made in the USA
http://www.defensereview.com/dsg-techno ... arters-ba/

Interesting! The double barreled rifle is a waste of time. Part of the reason the military went to the AR15 was so a soldier could carry more ammunition. A 9lb rifle defeats that purpose.

The new cartridge is interesting, but my old eyes has trouble seeing a thousand yards, my .06 will be sufficient.

bob

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Silver Shadow Gilboa Snake Double Barreled AR-15 from Israel
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... rm+Blog%29

DSG Technology/PNW Arms Super-Sniper Ammunition (SSA) Enhanced-Range Rifle Ammo Being Made in the USA
http://www.defensereview.com/dsg-techno ... arters-ba/

Interesting! The double barreled rifle is a waste of time. Part of the reason the military went to the AR15 was so a soldier could carry more ammunition. A 9lb rifle defeats that purpose.

The new cartridge is interesting, but my old eyes has trouble seeing a thousand yards, my .06 will be sufficient.

bob

LOL....yeah for whatever crazy reason double barrels (whether its a .45 or an AR) seem to be the rage right now.

Had a friend I used to work with in repairing large presses and brakes that was into long range shooting. He used to turn his own bullets out of brass. Pretty cool but not something I'm in a position to play with right now either.

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

Silver Shadow Gilboa Snake Double Barreled AR-15 from Israel
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2012 ... rm+Blog%29

DSG Technology/PNW Arms Super-Sniper Ammunition (SSA) Enhanced-Range Rifle Ammo Being Made in the USA
http://www.defensereview.com/dsg-techno ... arters-ba/

Interesting! The double barreled rifle is a waste of time. Part of the reason the military went to the AR15 was so a soldier could carry more ammunition. A 9lb rifle defeats that purpose.

The new cartridge is interesting, but my old eyes has trouble seeing a thousand yards, my .06 will be sufficient.

bob

LOL....yeah for whatever crazy reason double barrels (whether its a .45 or an AR) seem to be the rage right now.

Had a friend I used to work with in repairing large presses and brakes that was into long range shooting. He used to turn his own bullets out of brass. Pretty cool but not something I'm in a position to play with right now either.

Also, please note that firing more than 1 projectile with a single pull of a trigger is by the ATF's definition a machine gun. This would fall under the same regulations as a Browning M2.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Lol, would rather have the Browning-------

Bob

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Lol, would rather have the Browning-------

Bob

Amen on that one!!! Carlos hit a guy on a bicycle (moving) at 1500 meters with one....

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

If one really wants to get an officer ticked off, just mention the word "profiling." This happened to me. When I mentioned it to a retired police officer he got defensive and asked me "do you really believe officers profile people?" I said "yes, I've seen it happen." I've actually heard people talk about their experiences from this kind of thing when I was actively attending Pre-Paid Legal conferences. Now they call it Legal Shield.

Now if I get stopped by an officer, I can pull out my ID card that states on the back "If it is your intention to question, detain or arrest me, please allow me to call an attorney immediately." And the good thing about it is...I can. On the card is a telephone number for this purpose and I can have an attorney talk to the officer on the spot explaining why I'm being detained. This is a very good way to exercise, defend and keep ones rights without having to say anything that could be used against me.

This attorney -- is he/she with Legal Shield? or how did you select your attorney? just in case...

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

Lol, would rather have the Browning-------

Bob

You're not a true American if you don't dream of the Ma Deuce!

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

If one really wants to get an officer ticked off, just mention the word "profiling." This happened to me. When I mentioned it to a retired police officer he got defensive and asked me "do you really believe officers profile people?" I said "yes, I've seen it happen." I've actually heard people talk about their experiences from this kind of thing when I was actively attending Pre-Paid Legal conferences. Now they call it Legal Shield.

Now if I get stopped by an officer, I can pull out my ID card that states on the back "If it is your intention to question, detain or arrest me, please allow me to call an attorney immediately." And the good thing about it is...I can. On the card is a telephone number for this purpose and I can have an attorney talk to the officer on the spot explaining why I'm being detained. This is a very good way to exercise, defend and keep ones rights without having to say anything that could be used against me.

This attorney -- is he/she with Legal Shield? or how did you select your attorney? just in case...

Here are some good reasons to have this protection:

Need ONE more reason to join?

1. You don't understand the difference between a trust and a will.
2. You don't have an up-to-date will.
3. Family members challenge your parent's will.
4. Your landlord raises rent in violation of your verbal agreement.
5. You are selected for an audit.
6. Your parents die and leave you executor of their estate.
7. You are tired of hidden cell phone fees.
8. You do not have a retirement savings plan.
9. You lose your personal identification.
10. You receive a speeding ticket.
11. You are buying or selling your home.
12. Your driver's license is suspended.
13. You don't understand your health insurance plan or new legislation.
14. Your teenager is accused of shoplifting.
15. You decide to change your name.
16. Your new washing machine doesn't wash.
17. Creditors threaten to take action against you for your ex-spouse's debts.
18. A neighbor or school reports you for child abuse.
19. You adopt a child.
20. A friend or neighbor is injured on your property.
21. You need child support enforced.
22. A friend owes you money and files bankruptcy.
23. A caller demands money or damaging information will be released.
24. Your car is damaged by a hit-and-run driver.
25. You accidentally back over your neighbor's garbage can.
26. A hairdresser damages your hair with harsh chemicals.
27. Your car is repossessed unjustly.
28. You are subpoenaed or served with legal papers.
29. You are called to jury duty.
30. Your long drive off the tee injures another player.
31. You need a lease agreement reviewed.
32. Your son is injured in a football game.
33. A neighbor trips over a rake in your yard.
34. A jeweler sells you defective merchandise.
35. A car dealership gains illegal access to your credit history.
36. You are hit by a bottle at a baseball game.
37. A tenant falls down stairs and sues you.
38. You need help with credit card liability resolution.
39. You are injured when you slip on a wet floor in a public building.
40. Your livestock trample a neighbor's garden.
41. Your neighbor's dog barks for hours every night.
42. Your teenager gets a speeding ticket.
43. Your landlord enters your apartment without permission.
44. Your child throws a baseball through a neighbor's car window.
45. You don't have a Living Will or Medical Power of Attorney.
46. Your boat is damaged while in storage.
47. Your landlord refuses to refund your cleaning deposit.
48. You lose an expensive watch in a hotel and the manager denies liability.
49. A speeding car nicks your bumper when your car was parked on the street.
50. A merchant refuses to honor a guarantee.
51. You have an accident driving your friend's boat.
52. Your spouse claims a right to your earnings.
53. A record club sends merchandise after you cancel your membership.
54. You are refused service at a restaurant.
55. A property manager refuses to rent to you.
56. You are denied credit for no apparent reason.
57. An online auction goes sour.
58. The repair shop threatens small claims court for money you don't owe.
59. Your car insurance is cancelled when your teenager has an accident.
60. Your child needs special education in public school.
61. You made a sizable gift to charity.
62. Angry words result in a slander law suit.
63. You need a patent for an invention.
64. You need a copyright for your manuscript.
65. You are wrongly accused of committing a crime.
66. Your right to privacy has been invaded.
67. Your car is vandalized in a parking lot.
68. A postal carrier slips on your unshoveled walk and breaks his or her leg.
69. You have questions about escrow in a home purchase.
70. You're stopped for speeding and a passenger is in possession of marijuana.
71. Your teenager wrecks the car and a passenger is injured.
72. You care for your elderly parents.
73. You receive disability.
74. You are cheated by a door-to-door salesman.
75. A repairman charges more than a given estimate.
76. A creditor tries illegal collection tactics.
77. An accident results in a personal injury.
78. You are scheduled to appear in small claims court.
79. Your new house has bad plumbing and a leaky roof.
80. You take a vacation and your room has a view of the trash dumpster.
81. A minor is caught breaking into your home.
82. You have a fender bender while driving a friend's car.
83. You have liability questions in launching a new business.
84. You have a question about an easement on your property.
85. Your neighbor's dog bites your child.
86. You have a property line dispute over a newly installed fence.
87. You're asked to testify as a witness to a crime.
88. You need a premarital agreement.
89. You're buying or selling a car.
90. Your child's school demands a drug or alcohol test.
91. Your bank sends a foreclosure notice after one house payment is late.
92. A retail store won't accept the return of defective merchandise.
93. A repairman won't stand behind his work.
94. A trespasser is caught poaching on your land.
95. You are leasing property.
96. You receive a letter from a creditor and it is not your debt.
97. A bank reports bad credit activity unjustly.
98. You need advice concerning a divorce.
99. You own your own small business.
100. You can't make heads or tails out of the new tax forms.
101. Your spouse uses physical force against you.

The Corporate office chooses a top law firm in various locations around the country. If the firm or a portion thereof wants to join, they become representatives of Legal Shield. Members then use these firms for services they need. Members pay a small amount each month for these services. I personally got out of a high-dollar contract once by the use of this service. The amount of the contract extremely surpasses the amount I would pay for the legal plan for the rest of my life, so I feel good with it. I wouldn't do without it.

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

I went bowling last night...

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

True or false. Why?

Do not use hand loaded or re-loads for self defense CC.

See: http://www.carduccitactical.com/-P_Ammo.html

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

True or false. Why?

Do not use hand loaded or re-loads for self defense CC.

See: http://www.carduccitactical.com/-P_Ammo.html

Nope. It's not true. The false logic behind this idea stems from the erroneous argument that the prosecutor will accuse you of making extra-super-duper powerful flesh destroying rounds meant to kill with disregard for human life. The fact is that premium self defense loads you get in the store use the same bullets loaded to velocities I wouldn't feel safe loading by myself (Cor-Bon 135 gr JHP chronographed at 1480 fps from my G23 . I have only loaded them up to about 1325 fps).

If I remember correctly, there was a case where a man was put on trial for murdering his wife. He claimed she shot herself, but the ballistics couldn't be verified because they couldn't determine what kind of load was in the gun as it wasn't documented. Good record keeping would take care of this.

Another argument against carrying hand loads is the claim against reliability. I trust my life with my hand loads, and I can actually afford to shoot my defensive loads on a regular basis to make sure they feed reliably in the gun, etc. You have to have really deep pockets to do that with defensive ammo at retail price of >$1 per shot.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

On another post on this thread I wrote about a friend of mine who just retired from the FBI and what they recommended for his .40 S&W. He said about 1050 FPS with JHP's was the speed their tests showed was best. My .45 is comfortable for me to shoot at between 750-800 FPS.

However, I'm in trouble if I shouldn't shoot my handloads in self D, that's about all I have in stock, all I plan on having in stock!

However, after reading your post and article I thought I ought to check. The only factory loads I have in stock for my .45 are Russian FMJ's (Wolf). And to be honest, I don't remember when I purchased them, or if somebody gave them to me, or I traded something for them. But I have around 800 steel cased Wolf FMJ's. I can't imagine trading for them, I have no use for steel cases even though I have directions on how to reload them. But I have so many brass and nickle empty cases, steel cases seem like such a waste of my time. I guess I could use some more practice-----

All my boys shoot .45's, maybe these belong to one of them, bought for practice and forgot about. Checked to see if any of my reloads were missing, none missing!

Bob

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

This guy does great bullet reviews on youtube. This video was the reason I load Gold Dot JHPs (and the fact that they're the only bonded bullet I can get locally with any degree of certainty).