Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

For discussion of liberty, freedom, government and politics.
andrew
captain of 10
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by andrew »

To preserve liberty and prosperity of the people, The only sources of revenue allowed to government are these: public property user fees, and voluntary contributions
Sorry to rain on your parade, LoveisTruth, I appreciate you genuine desire to better the condition of mankind, but you are overlooking a fundamental premise.

In order for a person to become an owner of a piece of land, that person should either homestead an un-owned piece of land or buy one from the previous owner. In order to homestead, a person has to mix his sweat/labor with that piece of land.
Now, you are using a term "public property". Does it belong to the governmental officials? Did they mix their sweats with it? Or does it belong to a certain individual who cedes his ownership of that land in favour of the government?
I am afraid that none of the two. In most cases when government claims a piece of land to be public property, it commits an immoral act of claiming something to itself that is not actually its.
It is immoral to say "all the land stretching from hither to thither is now ours". By the same token Columbus could have claimed both North and South America. Or Adam, Abel or Cain could have claimed all of the planet to be theirs and extract a user fee from all future inhabitants. Can you see where the logic of immorally-claimed public property is leading?
So, no, your draft is not there yet. Strike the public property fees out and I will take another look at it.
Cheers.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

andrew wrote:
To preserve liberty and prosperity of the people, The only sources of revenue allowed to government are these: public property user fees, and voluntary contributions
Sorry to rain on your parade, LoveisTruth, I appreciate you genuine desire to better the condition of mankind, but you are overlooking a fundamental premise.

In order for a person to become an owner of a piece of land, that person should either homestead an un-owned piece of land or buy one from the previous owner. In order to homestead, a person has to mix his sweat/labor with that piece of land.
Now, you are using a term "public property". Does it belong to the governmental officials? Did they mix their sweats with it? Or does it belong to a certain individual who cedes his ownership of that land in favour of the government?
I am afraid that none of the two. In most cases when government claims a piece of land to be public property, it commits an immoral act of claiming something to itself that is not actually its.
It is immoral to say "all the land stretching from hither to thither is now ours". By the same token Columbus could have claimed both North and South America. Or Adam, Abel or Cain could have claimed all of the planet to be theirs and extract a user fee from all future inhabitants. Can you see where the logic of immorally-claimed public property is leading?
So, no, your draft is not there yet. Strike the public property fees out and I will take another look at it.
Cheers.
By the term public property I mean property that all people have equal claim too, like a public road. Do you not agree that public property exists?

Public property should be governed by the voice of the people, under a condition that all should be treated equally.

What did I miss?

Thanks.

andrew
captain of 10
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by andrew »

Surely a group of consenting individuals can pool their money to build a road and later charge user fees. I call it a co-operative business. Those owners can have "equal claim" to it, as you put it. If you want, you can call it "public property", but in my mind this term is ambiguous.

I don't have a problem with a group of people calling themselves government owning property and services like roads, police, courts, military, firefighters etc. if that government doesn't use force to forbid competition. In such a case this "government" is simply a competing business. Pretty soon if that government doesn't provide services to the satisfaction of consumers, it will lose its customers and go out of business.
If such is assumed to be the case, then the following clause is unnecessary:
The government shall not raise a user fee above the point where more than 10% of the citizens who are subject to this fee are acquitted of it by the jury of their peers.
If the government is simply a business owner, how can there be "subjects to this fee"? And why should their take somebody to the court for not paying it?
This needs elaboration.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

andrew wrote:Surely a group of consenting individuals can pool their money to build a road and later charge user fees. I call it a co-operative business. Those owners can have "equal claim" to it, as you put it. If you want, you can call it "public property", but in my mind this term is ambiguous.

I don't have a problem with a group of people calling themselves government owning property and services like roads, police, courts, military, firefighters etc. if that government doesn't use force to forbid competition. In such a case this "government" is simply a competing business. Pretty soon if that government doesn't provide services to the satisfaction of consumers, it will lose its customers and go out of business.
If such is assumed to be the case, then the following clause is unnecessary:
The government shall not raise a user fee above the point where more than 10% of the citizens who are subject to this fee are acquitted of it by the jury of their peers.
If the government is simply a business owner, how can there be "subjects to this fee"? And why should their take somebody to the court for not paying it?
This needs elaboration.
Who is subject to the fee? He who uses the public property that charges the fee.

Why is jury clause necessary?
It is to check the politicians, so they do not raise the fees too high.

If someone thinks the fee is too high, he appeals to a jury of peers, the jury grants him waver so he can use the public property in question without paying the fee. If 10% of people are granted wavers, then politicians, by law, must lower the fee.

andrew
captain of 10
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by andrew »

Thank you LoveisTruth, I'm convinced that your intent is just, albeit the wording could have been less ambivalent.
I'll tell you this - let those politicians provide the services, raise their fees, acquit by the jury of peers etc. AS LONG AS they don't use force against private individuals who compete with their services. Thats' all what I care about.
This cometition is impossible under the present US system, where the government assumed control over millitary, police, justice to name the most crucial ones.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

andrew wrote:Thank you LoveisTruth, I'm convinced that your intent is just, albeit the wording could have been less ambivalent.
I'll tell you this - let those politicians provide the services, raise their fees, acquit by the jury of peers etc. AS LONG AS they don't use force against private individuals who compete with their services. Thats' all what I care about.
This cometition is impossible under the present US system, where the government assumed control over millitary, police, justice to name the most crucial ones.
Thank you Andrew. How would you make the wording less ambivalent?

As for competing with the politicians: if they control all public roads it will be hard to compete with them. That's why jury check is so crucial.

andrew
captain of 10
Posts: 23
Location: Russia

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by andrew »

To preserve liberty and prosperity of the people, The only sources of revenue allowed to government are these: government property user fees, and voluntary contributions.
---

Let me break it down for you, LoveisTruth.
You said
and no one can delegate an authority he does not have
Absolutely right. Now does one have the authority to compel another to pay for military/police/courts/roads? No. That another person may or may not want those services. But "governments" of nowadays have monopolized those crucial fields. They will arrest/kill anyone trying to establish his business in those fields and compete with them. Where did "government" get the authority do that? Nowhere, they usurped it.
Thus, the only system congruent with your first paragraph is "government" competing with other entrepreneurs.

See, if government charges too high for using roads and it has no source of revenue like taxation to subsidize their road and it doesn't forbid competition, the moment they raise their prices too high, they will lose their customers, their revenue base, they will lack funds to maintain roads and private entrepreneurs will step in, build their own roads and outcompete government. Thus, the government being aware in advance of such possible outcome will try their best to please customers so as to avoid possible competition.
As for competing with the politicians: if they control all public roads it will be hard to compete with them. That's why jury check is so crucial.
No, it's not gonna be hard to compete. The reason it is impossible to compete now is 1) Gov. simply won't let a business person to have his own system of roads, with his own rules 2) Gov. is running roads at a loss, but thanks to the money they steal (taxes), they can subsidize roads and create a semblance of bearable service 3) Gov. has immorally appropriated huge amounts of land, rendering it impossible to build private roads without buying those lands from them.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I don’t like the term “government property”; government itself is public property, and if they forget it the people must bring the servant back in his place.

I don’t think government can compete effectively as a business in a free market, neither should they. I don’t think government should be a business. The proper role of government is to defend liberty of the people and nothing else.

They may manage public property, but they would hire private contractors to do the actual work. Because, remember, government produces NOTHING. Everything it gets comes from the people.

I agree with you completely, that the government cannot force people to use their services, nor compel them to pay for their services that people do not wish to use.

The bottom line, if you as a private individual have no moral right to force your neighbor to do or not to do something, you cannot ask your government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have, and the only authority that the government can properly have is what you as individual delegated to it, and nothing more.

Thanks for your input. It was most helpful.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

I think I finally got it right. Changed the last paragraph of the amendment. (Please see at the top of the thread). (Thanks andrew).

davedan
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3064
Location: Augusta, GA
Contact:

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by davedan »

I like this user fee idea.

One big source of potential revenue is in money creation. Since the Federal Government is given charge to "coin the money", anyone who uses money could be subject to a fee.

Currently, the Federal Government only collects "prime interest" on a fraction of the money that is created. And it usually works out that "prime" is less than the interest carried by the bonds from which that money was created from.

Therefore, thinking along these lines. the federal government could collect revenue on all no-interest loans via "loan origination fee" or a "loan monthly servicing fee"; all those who wish to borrow money to purchase a home, buy land, or start up a business; if you borrow money, you pay 1% fee. If you wish to avoid the fee, you save and pay with cash. This kind of system would encourage people to save instead of borrow.

I do not believe in a VAT/ad valorum/value added tax on every transaction, because that gives the Federal Government the ability to track every transaction, and control every transaction, and tax every transaction.

US Treasury creates all money
non-profit Local Banks issue no-interest loans
Local banks collect loan origination fee, and monthly loan service fees
Those fees cover the overhead of the bank, and generate revenue for Federal Gov.
Only those who borrow money are voluntarily subject to fee.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

davedan wrote:I like this user fee idea.

One big source of potential revenue is in money creation. Since the Federal Government is given charge to "coin the money", anyone who uses money could be subject to a fee.

Currently, the Federal Government only collects "prime interest" on a fraction of the money that is created. And it usually works out that "prime" is less than the interest carried by the bonds from which that money was created from.

Therefore, thinking along these lines. the federal government could collect revenue on all no-interest loans via "loan origination fee" or a "loan monthly servicing fee"; all those who wish to borrow money to purchase a home, buy land, or start up a business; if you borrow money, you pay 1% fee. If you wish to avoid the fee, you save and pay with cash. This kind of system would encourage people to save instead of borrow.

I do not believe in a VAT/ad valorum/value added tax on every transaction, because that gives the Federal Government the ability to track every transaction, and control every transaction, and tax every transaction.

US Treasury creates all money
non-profit Local Banks issue no-interest loans
Local banks collect loan origination fee, and monthly loan service fees
Those fees cover the overhead of the bank, and generate revenue for Federal Gov.
Only those who borrow money are voluntarily subject to fee.
Thank you for your post. You are absolutely right, that to rein in the government you have to take care of legalized counterfeiting. For that please check out:

Honest Money Constitutional Amendment
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=251788

Money is just another product. Under this amendment, the government cannot tax the medium of exchange.

US Treasury should not create all the money. Any one should be able to crate money. Then only honest and stable currency, like gold and silver, will survive and prevail.

User avatar
dennis
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1282
Location: east wanship hills
Contact:

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by dennis »

Love is truth. Your work and thought is commendable. I too once believed Gold and sound currency was the answer. I started buying gold in the 1970's when it was less than 200.00 /oz. Then I got into silver at less than 4.00/oz. There is merrit in the arguments. However, I have a question. How does the government or any one keep the gadiantons from owning and controling the gold? He who ownes the gold makes the rules. There is no other commodity more controled by the rothchilds than gold. [ they also control the other commodities including oil and grain and also the commodity futures market] I also got intrested in mining. I found out that GHW busch is on the board of directors of Barick Gold. Rio Tinto is owned by the rothchilds and besides many other things Rio owns our [un]local kenecott. In fact I cant think of a major mining co that is not owned or controled by the NWO thugs. Now you can say all you want to about the virtues of a gold backed currency, but in todays world you are supporting the NWO. Because they are one or two or a hundred steps ahead of us. That is their end game . they will go to a gold standard because they own all the gold and all the production and it will consolidate their complete control. by the way no criticism intended. Just trying to point out the fact in todays world gold is not the answer.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: The Perfect System of Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

dennis wrote:Love is truth. Your work and thought is commendable. I too once believed Gold and sound currency was the answer. I started buying gold in the 1970's when it was less than 200.00 /oz. Then I got into silver at less than 4.00/oz. There is merrit in the arguments. However, I have a question. How does the government or any one keep the gadiantons from owning and controling the gold? He who ownes the gold makes the rules. There is no other commodity more controled by the rothchilds than gold. [ they also control the other commodities including oil and grain and also the commodity futures market] I also got intrested in mining. I found out that GHW busch is on the board of directors of Barick Gold. Rio Tinto is owned by the rothchilds and besides many other things Rio owns our [un]local kenecott. In fact I cant think of a major mining co that is not owned or controled by the NWO thugs. Now you can say all you want to about the virtues of a gold backed currency, but in todays world you are supporting the NWO. Because they are one or two or a hundred steps ahead of us. That is their end game. they will go to a gold standard because they own all the gold and all the production and it will consolidate their complete control. by the way no criticism intended. Just trying to point out the fact in todays world gold is not the answer.
Notice the Honest Money Amendment I proposed (http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread.php?t=251788) says nothing about gold. It simply removes government force from where it has no moral right of being. People will decide what they will use as money among themselves, not the government. If this condition of free competition in currencies exist, then if gold is more beneficial and preserves peoples purchasing power better, then it will be used as money; if silver, then silver; if grain, then grain etc.

My feeling is though the banksters stall much of the gold, yet a very significant percentage is still in the hands of the people in the form of jewelry etc. I'd say about 50% of the world's known gold is in the hands of the people. And if the government forced monopoly on counterfeiting money is removed and forbidden, then the rest of the gold will soon also will end up in the hands of the people.

The key here is to remove immoral application of government force, and allowing free market in currencies to operate. As immoral government force was the problem, so the freedom becomes the only solution.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »

The Philosophy of Liberty and Bastiat's concept of Legal Plunder


User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Added a line:

"Public property is defined as property to which all citizens have equal claim of ownership."

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Ron Paul: Constitutional Amendment Needed to Limit Taxes and Spending

http://www.dailypaul.com/171327/ron-pau ... d-spending" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Yea, baby! I have just that!

Taxation Constitutional Amendment
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthread ... -Amendment" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Abolish the Income Tax!!!
Let Freedom and Prosperity Ring!

Ron Paul's 0% Income Tax = Massive Insourcing of Jobs into America


User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »

TheTinyDot


Tiny Dot Explained




"Right to Rob You"
Last edited by LoveIsTruth on February 13th, 2012, 6:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Taxation Constitutional Amendment

Post by LoveIsTruth »



karend77
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1034

Re: Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

Post by karend77 »

wow-go team North Dakota!!

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Everyone a Millionaire

Imagine you ditched your car payment and instead invested that money?
Imagine you took the money that the government takes from your paycheck to invest into social security and used it instead to privately invest for retirement?
'Everyone a Millionaire' explains the results.

http://youtu.be/MN3n3MnYTbg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
LoveIsTruth
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 5497

Re: Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

Post by LoveIsTruth »

Penn Jillette on Government Social Welfare
Lew Rockwell Blog
Sept 3, 2012
Libertarian Penn Jillette expresses his contempt for government social welfare in this very clear and concise statement:
  • “It’s amazing to me how many people think that voting to have the government give poor people money is compassion. Helping poor and suffering people is compassion. Voting for our government to use guns to give money to help poor and suffering people is immoral self-righteous bullying laziness.

    People need to be fed, medicated, educated, clothed, and sheltered, and if we’re compassionate we’ll help them, but you get no moral credit for forcing other people to do what you think is right. There is great joy in helping people, but no joy in doing it at gunpoint.”

Lawful
captain of 100
Posts: 144

Re: Constitutional Amendment Abolishing Taxation

Post by Lawful »

Everyone knows the Government cannot force anyone into a contract with a private Corporation.

Everyone knows the Federal Reserve is a Private Corporation.

Everyone know the 'product' the Federal Reserve produces and offers to the public is "legal tender".

Everyone knows a private corporation can charge you a use fee when you use their product. ( which is perfectly lawful and NOT criminal).

Very few know they do not have to condone, endorse or use said credit. The Government will not and cannot force you to use it.

The Government offers you remedy in the very ACT that created the Federal Reserve and allowed them to market their product as "legal tender".

12-USC 411 is already in effect. All this talk of Constitutional amendments is not only not needed, it is a distraction to the remedy provided in their law already.

"Federal reserve notes, to be issued at the discretion of the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve System for the purpose of making advances to Federal reserve banks through the Federal reserve agents as hereinafter set forth and for no other purpose, are authorized. The said notes shall be obligations of the United States and shall be receivable by all national and member banks and Federal reserve banks and for all taxes, customs, and other public dues. They shall be redeemed in lawful money on demand at the Treasury Department of the United States, in the city of Washington, District of Columbia, or at any Federal Reserve bank."

NOTHING and NOBODY compels you to use the Federal Reserve "legal tender" there always has been a choice for lawful money nor assume everything that comes with them (including, but not limited to, the use fee called "income TAX".

Anyone who says differently is a liar or ignorant of the law.

Post Reply