A Wild Man Hath Come Among US

[dewajackcaptain of 100]

A Wild Man Hath Come Among Us

I’ve noticed on this forum lately, that people are quick to label someone an apostate, or something similar. Many forum members are quick to assume that any spiritual experience shared that doesn’t jive with their preconceived notions can’t contain any thread of truth. Sometimes, these statements seem to state what the Lord can and can’t do, as if He is limited. I wanted to just touch on a pattern that is throughout scripture.

-In Moses 6:37-41, we read Enoch being compared to a “wild man” and all men were offended by him. In fact, they didn’t even know who he was or where he came from.
-In 2 Chronicles 36:15-16, we learn that the messengers of God were mocked.
-The same goes for Lehi in I Nephi 1:18-20, the Jews sought to take his life.
In these verses, we learn that people are sent by the Lord, only to be mocked, offended and persecuted, the people sought to kill the messengers that were sent to declare the word of the Lord. These are just a few examples of the many found in scripture.

-In D&C 49:8, we read of holy men, not known to the early leaders of the church. Obviously, these men weren’t known to the members of the church because they didn’t belong to it.

Discerning between false and true prophets is a very important topic. Joseph Smith touched on this when he stated, “The world always mistook false prophets for true ones, and those that were sent of God, they considered to be false prophets, and hence they killed, stoned, punished and imprisoned the true prophets, and these had to hide themselves ‘in deserts and dens, and caves of the earth’ [see Hebrews 11:38], and though the most honorable men of the earth, they banished them from their society as vagabonds, whilst they cherished, honored and supported knaves, vagabonds, hypocrites, impostors, and the basest of men” (History of the Church 4:574).

Oliver Cowdery writes similarly in the latest edition of the Joseph Smith Papers, Histories Vol. 1, “In reviewing the lives and acts of men in past generations, whenever we find a righteous man among them, there always were excuses for not giving heed or credence to his testimony.” Also, while writing of the early Apostles, Cowdery states, “It seems to have been forgotten that they were men of infirmities and subject to all the feelings, passions, and imperfections common to other men” (TJSP, Histories Vol.1, 47-51).
Often, in scripture and elsewhere, people focus too much on the messenger, what he looks like, what is the gender, what’s his calling, etc?

The real focus should be on the message, it’s all that matters, It either comes of God or it doesn’t. We’re bound to see things in others that we find unbecoming, even the Savior dealt with those accusations. Ultimately, His sheep will hear His voice.

I believe we should all be careful to not make hasty judgments on people’s experiences, testimony, or authority, lest we judge amiss. The Pharisee Gamaliel showed this wisdom in Acts 5:38-39, while discussing with the people the punishment of the Apostles, “And now I say unto you, refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought: But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found to fight against God.”

I refuse to believe that the Lord is bound by my rules. He can do what He pleases. It’s never been outside of the norm for Him to upset the established apple cart. Lastly, I refuse to believe that we’ve cornered the market on these things. Is it really that hard to believe that He’ll work with others outside of the church as well as within? Is there not anything to learn from other sources? Can’t people within the church female/male receive instructions from the Master, regardless of calling? Hopefully, we’ll cast our fears aside and be willing to accept the truth, no matter who delivers it, or where it comes from.

[gr8ideascaptain of 100]

+1

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

Curious post. I can't think of time when there were a duly authorized and righteous first presidency and quorum of the twelve apostles when this scenario would apply. So I can only assume you both think that the current church leadership are not divinely inspired nor approved?

With a functioning church leadership, I don't see a place for a wild man and I would be very hesitant to liken any poster on this site or current author of books as an Enoch or John the Baptist. But to each there own.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

The real focus should be on the message, it’s all that matters, It either comes of God or it doesn’t.

And this is what it all boils down to. NOTHING else matters. There is a reason the Lord said that the only ones to "make it" are going to be those who have taken the holy spirit to be their guide, so they are not deceived. Nothing else but the holy spirit can be trusted to guide us through these murky waters.

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

A Wild Man Hath Come Among Us

I’ve noticed on this forum lately, that people are quick to label someone an apostate, or something similar. Many forum members are quick to assume that any spiritual experience shared that doesn’t jive with their preconceived notions can’t contain any thread of truth. Sometimes, these statements seem to state what the Lord can and can’t do, as if He is limited. I wanted to just touch on a pattern that is throughout scripture.
. . . Hopefully, we’ll cast our fears aside and be willing to accept the truth, no matter who delivers it, or where it comes from.

It is certainly important for everyone to choose who they will follow, that much is for sure.
But for those of you that decide to follow the self-proclaimed leaders among you, who can stop you?
Go ahead, choose your side, as you must. Those of use who choose to stick with the brethren will mourn for you in days to come.
You have to be able to make your choice, and these people have many paths for you to follow in their own self constructed bronze and wooden and silver and gold and steel rods. Just remember, there is already an iron rod, and that has already been around for some time. Those of you that must be gathered out have to be gathered out. We will mourn for you.

[Gideoncaptain of 100]

The real focus should be on the message, it’s all that matters, It either comes of God or it doesn’t.

And this is what it all boils down to. NOTHING else matters. There is a reason the Lord said that the only ones to "make it" are going to be those who have taken the holy spirit to be their guide, so they are not deceived. Nothing else but the holy spirit can be trusted to guide us through these murky waters.

If nothing else really matters, why did Christ warn us about false prophets and then tell us that we would know them by their fruits, instead of their message?

Having an open mind makes it possible to learn new things, and we shouldn't think that we can dictate to God or that we know better than Him. Now, having said that, it is also crucial that we not lose sight of this verse:

For in those days there shall also arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch, that, if possible, they shall deceive the very elect, who are the elect according to the covenant.
(Joseph Smith—Matthew 1:22‎)‎

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

The real focus should be on the message, it’s all that matters, It either comes of God or it doesn’t.

And this is what it all boils down to. NOTHING else matters. There is a reason the Lord said that the only ones to "make it" are going to be those who have taken the holy spirit to be their guide, so they are not deceived. Nothing else but the holy spirit can be trusted to guide us through these murky waters.

There is truth here. But, how many are truly capable of it? If it were an easy clear path, there would never have been a need for a church at all, or for ordinances, as Amonhi indicates, because we just need to follow the spirit. It would be so much easier: If only it worked, that would be Gods pattern not having a church, as Paul described so well in Ephesians.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Curious post. I can't think of time when there were a duly authorized and righteous first presidency and quorum of the twelve apostles when this scenario would apply. So I can only assume you both think that the current church leadership are not divinely inspired nor approved?

With a functioning church leadership, I don't see a place for a wild man and I would be very hesitant to liken any poster on this site or current author of books as an Enoch or John the Baptist. But to each there own.

I know that I am not real popular here among the live and let live crowd but like Rand I have to wonder why people here continually get caught up in the what ifs and could be's when it comes to church leadership and authority.

I remember talking to a man many years ago who told me that the church was going to be broken up very soon and those outside of the recognized priesthood leadership mantle would be the ones recognized and used by the Lord to bring about his divine purposes.

There was an incessant call from him to follow the spirit no matter where it leads you, even if it contradicted the current guidelines and direction as given by the Prophet. Ancient examples like Nephi killing Laban were used by him to show that sometimes the spirit could have you do things contrary to acceptable norms taught in the church.

Well before long I saw that he had been ex'ed and was embarking on the weird and bizzare including spiritual marriages with multiple partners and alters in his home to conduct temple worship. One thing led to another and soon he was a part of other ex'ed member groups out actively recruiting for his new "mission".

People here think I am a big stick in the mud because I continue to advocate sticking with the recognized church authorities and staying in the safety of the recognized church and Priesthood organization. (D&C 42:11)

The reason I do is because I have seen first hand how easily it is for someone to be deceived by alternative voices out there as a result of becoming a law unto themselves and leaving the safety of the 3 pronged approach of Prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all unified in purpose in order to go it alone because they felt their inspiration was superior to what was advocated by the living Prophets or the Scriptures together.

They started out saying that they would NEVER be deceived either. But they were and their fruits became bitter. I hate to see others go down this same path because it is such a dangerous plunge into the abyss once this occurs in a persons life. Many here call that warning intolerence on my part. I see it as a desire to protect against the adversarial wolves who seek to devour the Lords sheep.

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

I know that I am not real popular here among the live and let live crowd but like Rand I have to wonder why people here continually get caught up in the what ifs and could be's when it comes to church leadership and authority.

I remember talking to a man many years ago who told me that the church was going to be broken up very soon and those outside of the recognized priesthood leadership mantle would be the ones recognized and used by the Lord to bring about his divine purposes.

There was an incessant call from him to follow the spirit no matter where it leads you, even if it contradicted the current guidelines and direction as given by the Prophet. Ancient examples like Nephi killing Laban were used by him to show that sometimes the spirit could have you do things contrary to acceptable norms taught in the church.

Well before long I saw that he had been ex'ed and was embarking on the weird and bizzare including spiritual marriages with multiple partners and alters in his home to conduct temple worship. One thing led to another and soon he was a part of other ex'ed member groups out actively recruiting for his new "mission".

People here think I am a big stick in the mud because I continue to advocate sticking with the recognized church authorities and staying in the safety of the recognized church and Priesthood organization. (D&C 42:11)

The reason I do is because I have seen first hand how easily it is for someone to be deceived by alternative voices out there as a result of becoming a law unto themselves and leaving the safety of the 3 pronged approach of Prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all unified in purpose in order to go it alone because they felt their inspiration was superior to what was advocated by the living Prophets or the Scriptures together.

They started out saying that they would NEVER be deceived either. But they were and their fruits became bitter. I hate to see others go down this same path because it is such a dangerous plunge into the abyss once this occurs in a persons life. Many here call that warning intolerence on my part. I see it as a desire to protect against the adversarial wolves who seek to devour the Lords sheep.

Well Mark, my brutha frum anutha mutha.... I agree with you, but in the end, you have to let these guys make their own choice. ATL Wake told me to let him worship what he may. On that point he is right... I need to ultimately let them choose what they may. I will pipe up now and again, but I do see the ultimate futility of what we are trying to do. Perhaps we will persuade a few here and there to turn away from the alternate voices. But in joining this forum, I realize that I am in the hornets nest, and by saying anything, I have stirred up the hive.

Ed

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

I know that I am not real popular here among the live and let live crowd but like Rand I have to wonder why people here continually get caught up in the what ifs and could be's when it comes to church leadership and authority.

I remember talking to a man many years ago who told me that the church was going to be broken up very soon and those outside of the recognized priesthood leadership mantle would be the ones recognized and used by the Lord to bring about his divine purposes.

There was an incessant call from him to follow the spirit no matter where it leads you, even if it contradicted the current guidelines and direction as given by the Prophet. Ancient examples like Nephi killing Laban were used by him to show that sometimes the spirit could have you do things contrary to acceptable norms taught in the church.

Well before long I saw that he had been ex'ed and was embarking on the weird and bizzare including spiritual marriages with multiple partners and alters in his home to conduct temple worship. One thing led to another and soon he was a part of other ex'ed member groups out actively recruiting for his new "mission".

People here think I am a big stick in the mud because I continue to advocate sticking with the recognized church authorities and staying in the safety of the recognized church and Priesthood organization. (D&C 42:11)

The reason I do is because I have seen first hand how easily it is for someone to be deceived by alternative voices out there as a result of becoming a law unto themselves and leaving the safety of the 3 pronged approach of Prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all unified in purpose in order to go it alone because they felt their inspiration was superior to what was advocated by the living Prophets or the Scriptures together.

They started out saying that they would NEVER be deceived either. But they were and their fruits became bitter. I hate to see others go down this same path because it is such a dangerous plunge into the abyss once this occurs in a persons life. Many here call that warning intolerence on my part. I see it as a desire to protect against the adversarial wolves who seek to devour the Lords sheep.

Well Mark, my brutha frum anutha mutha.... I agree with you, but in the end, you have to let these guys make their own choice. ATL Wake told me to let him worship what he may. On that point he is right... I need to ultimately let them choose what they may. I will pipe up now and again, but I do see the ultimate futility of what we are trying to do. Perhaps we will persuade a few here and there to turn away from the alternate voices. But in joining this forum, I realize that I am in the hornets nest, and by saying anything, I have stirred up the hive.

Ed

I understand your point Ed. I guess I just hate to see the adversary win with any soul. I wish only to see him go straight to hell where he rightly belongs. No person who has ever left this church to follow another spiritual path has or will ever prosper. They will always end up bitter and alone in the end. Just the way the adversary wants it.

[durangoutcaptain of 1,000]

The Sifting is very apparent.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Curious post. I can't think of time when there were a duly authorized and righteous first presidency and quorum of the twelve apostles when this scenario would apply. So I can only assume you both think that the current church leadership are not divinely inspired nor approved?

With a functioning church leadership, I don't see a place for a wild man and I would be very hesitant to liken any poster on this site or current author of books as an Enoch or John the Baptist. But to each there own.

I know that I am not real popular here among the live and let live crowd but like Rand I have to wonder why people here continually get caught up in the what ifs and could be's when it comes to church leadership and authority.

I remember talking to a man many years ago who told me that the church was going to be broken up very soon and those outside of the recognized priesthood leadership mantle would be the ones recognized and used by the Lord to bring about his divine purposes.

There was an incessant call from him to follow the spirit no matter where it leads you, even if it contradicted the current guidelines and direction as given by the Prophet. Ancient examples like Nephi killing Laban were used by him to show that sometimes the spirit could have you do things contrary to acceptable norms taught in the church.

Well before long I saw that he had been ex'ed and was embarking on the weird and bizzare including spiritual marriages with multiple partners and alters in his home to conduct temple worship. One thing led to another and soon he was a part of other ex'ed member groups out actively recruiting for his new "mission".

People here think I am a big stick in the mud because I continue to advocate sticking with the recognized church authorities and staying in the safety of the recognized church and Priesthood organization. (D&C 42:11)

The reason I do is because I have seen first hand how easily it is for someone to be deceived by alternative voices out there as a result of becoming a law unto themselves and leaving the safety of the 3 pronged approach of Prophets, scriptures, and the Holy Spirit all unified in purpose in order to go it alone because they felt their inspiration was superior to what was advocated by the living Prophets or the Scriptures together.

They started out saying that they would NEVER be deceived either. But they were and their fruits became bitter. I hate to see others go down this same path because it is such a dangerous plunge into the abyss once this occurs in a persons life. Many here call that warning intolerence on my part. I see it as a desire to protect against the adversarial wolves who seek to devour the Lords sheep.

Well said. I'm thankful for a simple faith.

[shestaloucaptain of 50]

Personal Revelation anyone or does that make you apostate by supporting this fact?

[shestaloucaptain of 50]

I could explain a hundred fold more than I ever have of the glories of the kingdoms manifested to me in the vision, were I permitted, and were the people prepared to receive them.
Joseph Smith, Jr. If I revealed all that has been made known to me, scarcely a man on this stand would stay with me." and "Brethren, if I were to tell you all I know of the kingdom of God, I do know that you would rise up and kill me.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Salvation cannot come without revelation. Men of the present time testify of heaven and hell, and have never seen either; and I will say that no man knows these things without this.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
The best way to obtain truth and wisdom is not to ask from books, but to go to God in prayer, and obtain divine teaching.
Joseph Smith, Jr.
Joseph Smith gave his life defending personal revelation and I will not deny it!

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

Personal Revelation anyone or does that make you apostate by supporting this fact?

Really! REALLY! Do you actually think anyone here is denying the vital importance of personal revelation? It is the arrogance of the need to be special, to fit outside of the system of not being humble enough to live, grow, serve and fit into the system God has designed that is troublesome.

It is the need to have God cater to your prideful view and self importance in giving revelation that is not supported by "Voices of reason" here. It looks like some are building a Spiritual Resume' by needing God to give them what they want, when they want it, because it is good isn't it. Kind of an LDS version of the new age idea of "The Secret". You can have anything in life if you just ask for it. Consequences be darned. I just want what I want. Bottom line, you are not serving the Master, you are asking him to serve you.

I have known a family for many years. They are such sticks in the mud. If there ever was a service project, activity etc., they were mindlessly there serving. They did everything they were told, in an unthinking way. I judged them as robots. They were unthinking. Never had an original thought. They couldn't discuss doctrine beyond the very basic standard church dialogue, I usually called their thoughts Standard Mormon Answers. Simpletons really in a way. But, as time has gone on, they have become better and better people. They have grow sweet and wise. They just did what they were told, mechanically, unthinking, but they are becoming SAINTS.
I wish I had been a little more like them. I now see wisdom in their simplicity.

[shestaloucaptain of 50]

There is nothing wrong in sharing spiritual experiences and yes all of Gods children are special and should be acknowledged and I for one love to hear these beautiful stories and no one is saying to follow them and give up the prophet and personally I find these beautiful experiences humbling and people who are courageous enough to stand out and stand up for Christ and our Father in Heaven, I say keep them coming you are all beautiful in your own special way!

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

There is nothing wrong in sharing spiritual experiences and yes all of Gods children are special and should be acknowledged and I for one love to hear these beautiful stories and no one is saying to follow them and give up the prophet and personally I find these beautiful experiences humbling and people who are courageous enough to stand out and stand up for Christ and our Father in Heaven, I say keep them coming you are all beautiful in your own special way!

All of that I agree with. Blessings.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Personal Revelation anyone or does that make you apostate by supporting this fact?

Really! REALLY! Do you actually think anyone here is denying the vital importance of personal revelation? It is the arrogance of the need to be special, to fit outside of the system of not being humble enough to live, grow, serve and fit into the system God has designed that is troublesome.

It is the need to have God cater to your prideful view and self importance in giving revelation that is not supported by "Voices of reason" here. It looks like some are building a Spiritual Resume' by needing God to give them what they want, when they want it, because it is good isn't it. Kind of an LDS version of the new age idea of "The Secret". You can have anything in life if you just ask for it. Consequences be darned. I just want what I want. Bottom line, you are not serving the Master, you are asking him to serve you.

I have known a family for many years. They are such sticks in the mud. If there ever was a service project, activity etc., they were mindlessly there serving. They did everything they were told, in an unthinking way. I judged them as robots. They were unthinking. Never had an original thought. They couldn't discuss doctrine beyond the very basic standard church dialogue, I usually called their thoughts Standard Mormon Answers. Simpletons really in a way. But, as time has gone on, they have become better and better people. They have grow sweet and wise. They just did what they were told, mechanically, unthinking, but they are becoming SAINTS.
I wish I had been a little more like them. I now see wisdom in their simplicity.

Rand you bring up such an important point here. When one embarks upon the journey of spiritual growth and development in their own life there will always be a temptation to elevate ones self to a higher plain and begin to look upon others in a sort of pitiful or condescending way. That is how the adversary works to get us off the right path. He wants us to feel that we are better than others around us or have us feel we have surpassed all these poor unenlightened "sheeple" in our progression to greater spiritual heights. Its called pride.

When I have met individuals in the past who decided to separate themselves from the body of Saints they did so because they felt the Saints just weren't "getting it" and they had no more time for all these milk drinkers. They were to advanced for all that elementary stuff like simple acts of charity and compassionate service to ones brothers and sisters through being a caring home teacher or visiting teacher or fulfilling their callings and stewardships in a humble unassuming way. No sir that was not tantalizing enough for them. They needed more of a buzz.

Inevitably before long they were following the "spirit" straight out of the church and into the bizarre. Humility and meekness were thrown aside and replaced with aggrandizement and condescending critical attitudes toward the rest of the Saints. Their Bishops and Stake Presidents became their enemies and the Brethren were just a bunch of corporate yes men who no longer wanted to be watchmen on the tower but just wanted to be popular with the world. Nobody "got it" but them. They were seeking for greater light and knowledge. The rest of the sheeple be damned.

Joseph was a wonderful example to us all of someone who could pursue the things of the spirit to great heights yet He always showed compassion and care to those around him who may have struggled with this. He never separated himself from the body of Saints but instead gave his life in their service. He truly came to resemble the Savior because of his love and compassion extended to others who struggled to find their way in the gospel. That we may do likewise.

[shestaloucaptain of 50]

I do agree with one thing though people should be very very careful if someone is telling you not to follow the prophet.
The Lord commands Church members to follow the prophet
D&C 21:4-6 Always, always follow the prophet

[Gadcaptain of 1,000]

I don't think that any member of the church should separate themselves from it. I also don't think that all is well in the church. I think we need to keep the commandments, repent when we fail to keep them, and be very forgiving of others.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

I don't think that any member of the church should separate themselves from it. I also don't think that all is well in the church. I think we need to keep the commandments, repent when we fail to keep them, and be very forgiving of others.

Mark, Ditto's. Well said.
Shestalou, I agree totally.

Gad, I agree, I would make a distinction that is subtle but vital. The Church is fine, but the membership of the church does about 1/10 of what we are asked to as a whole, so the body is sick, but the Church as an institution needs no help, IMO. Blessings

[gr8ideascaptain of 100]

Sometimes it is good to remember that:
1 Nephi 8:24
24 And it came to pass that I beheld others pressing forward, and they came forth and caught hold of the end of the rod of iron; and they did press forward through the mist of darkness, clinging to the rod of iron, even until they did come forth and partake of the fruit of the tree.
1 Nephi 8:25
25 And

after they had partaken of the fruit

of the tree they did cast their eyes about as if they were ashamed.
There will always be those who in their orthodox piety will try to shame those who are enjoying the Fruit of the Tree.

Joseph Smith said:
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Six 1843–44, p.327

I cannot believe in any of the creeds of the different denominations, because they all have some things in them I cannot subscribe to, though all of them have some truth. I want to come up into the presence of God, and learn all things; but the creeds set up stakes, and say, "Hitherto shalt thou come, and no further"; which I cannot subscribe to.

If there is a problem with those who post it may be that they have a difficult time as did Brigham Young in controlling their own output.
Journal of Discourses, Vol.8, p.58, Brigham Young, May 20, 1860

And I will say, as I have before said, if guilt before my God and my brethren rests upon me in the least, it is in this one thing--that I have revealed too much concerning God and his kingdom, and the designs of our Father in heaven. Of, your skirts are stained in the least with wrong, it is because I have been too free in telling what God is, how he lives, the nature of his providences and designs in creating the world, in bringing forth the human family on the earth, his designs concerning them, &c. If I had, like Paul, said--"But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant," perhaps it would have been better for the people.

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

orthodox piety

[/quote]

Unorthodox piety is much superior to orthodox piety for sure.

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

I understand your point Ed. I guess I just hate to see the adversary win with any soul. I wish only to see him go straight to hell where he rightly belongs. No person who has ever left this church to follow another spiritual path has or will ever prosper. They will always end up bitter and alone in the end. Just the way the adversary wants it.

True Mark, but we are better served by just having patience and using persuasion rather than being so worried for people's souls that we miss the mark by becoming overbearing and actually fall into a trap ourselves by not respecting free agency. And remember who had no respect for agency. I have started to recognize my own overbearing-ness sometimes. I have a friend that is ex-Mormon that left the Church just a couple of years ago. And before that, he came back for a couple of years, had his wife baptized and so forth. I started to get overbearing with him, but then I realized that it was what he really wanted. He didn't want to be Mormon. So, if these people really want to go and follow after these individuals, we should let them. I feel bad for them, but I can't let my whole existence be consumed by it. Remember that revelation from Orson Hyde. It says, in a manner of speaking to not get worked up over it or worry about them. If they don't listen to the Lord's voice, they ceased to be chosen anyway, and will excommunicate themselves from the Spirit. Its sad, but these people that lead them astray give them the option of being led astray. If we take away that option, then they cannot truly make a choice, now can they? Those that want to follow them should be allowed to. That doesn't mean we don't try to persuade them not to. But let's not get too overbearing.

Ed

[Sarielcaptain of 100]

So Helaman and Mark, you condescend to post on this thread and start a conversation with yourselves about how much you pity the original poster and those that agree with him as if he/they aren't even here? You two must really not know how pompous you sound.

Maybe I should be worried about you two being deceived by a Bishop, Stake President, GA, or Apostle that is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Brigham Young said there are those who were inspired by Satan to join the church (whether they know it or not) and work their way up church leadership with the goal of destroying the church (it's in the teachings of Brigham Young). President Benson spoke of the same thing. In the end we are not safe in following authority just because they have authority. We are all in the same position, whether you reject any advice from those who have no stewardship over you or if you look for truth where ever it is found (encouraged by Joseph and Brigham BTW).

So please take it easy. You may be deceived and err by following your bishop before any of us are deceived by Hugh Nibley or anyone with some wisdom or knowledge to share. The spirit is the key to discernment, and it can work no matter what the source of information. How about encouraging people to be worthy of the Holy Ghost and seek the gifts of the spirit instead of discouraging the pursuit of truth.

[Helaman2000captain of 100]

So Helaman and Mark, you condescend to post on this thread and start a conversation with yourselves about how much you pity the original poster and those that agree with him as if he/they aren't even here? You two must really not know how pompous you sound.

Interesting. So, openly admitting something makes me condescending and acting like people aren't here. HMM. Ok. That makes sense. NOT. Actually, far from condescension, that is described by the word "honesty". And admitting that I am actively trying to persuade people to stay in line with the brethren, far from being pompus is actually is called open disclosure. Ok. Sir/Mam, whatever the case, just admit that you don't agree with what I'm doing, and leave it at that. I'm the one that said that people like you ought to be allowed to make your choices rather than trying to tell you what to do.

In reality, there is nothing we can do or say or no manner that we can present ourselves that will not piss people like you off. The fact that we even opine the way we do pisses you off.

[e-eyecaptain of 100]

So Helaman and Mark, you condescend to post on this thread and start a conversation with yourselves about how much you pity the original poster and those that agree with him as if he/they aren't even here? You two must really not know how pompous you sound.

Maybe I should be worried about you two being deceived by a Bishop, Stake President, GA, or Apostle that is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Brigham Young said there are those who were inspired by Satan to join the church (whether they know it or not) and work their way up church leadership with the goal of destroying the church (it's in the teachings of Brigham Young). President Benson spoke of the same thing. In the end we are not safe in following authority just because they have authority. We are all in the same position, whether you reject any advice from those who have no stewardship over you or if you look for truth where ever it is found (encouraged by Joseph and Brigham BTW).

So please take it easy. You may be deceived and err by following your bishop before any of us are deceived by Hugh Nibley or anyone with some wisdom or knowledge to share. The spirit is the key to discernment, and it can work no matter what the source of information. How about encouraging people to be worthy of the Holy Ghost and seek the gifts of the spirit instead of discouraging the pursuit of truth.

-1

[Sarielcaptain of 100]

I'm the one that said that people like you ought to be allowed to make your choices rather than trying to tell you what to do.

Mark, just let the original poster use his agency to apostatize, it's his right not to do things right like us. This sounds condescending to me. My paraphrase may not be accurate, but it's hard not to see this every time these kinds of comments are made.

people like you... not piss people like you off.

Maybe I shouldn't have lumped you in with Mark, my post was mostly directed at him because almost every thread I read has comments like these from him. In fact, you may have been trying to get him to tone it down. Sorry to do that. I am not "pissed off". Nor am I in the "people like you" group that you think I am. It does hurt to come here to discuss truth and have people accuse me of apostasy when all that matters in life to me is the Savior and how to return to him. I identify with the OP and those who agree who are sincere. In defense of myself and them I made my post; it was meant to be very direct, but maybe I was over the top. Sorry. However, I am serious about this.

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

When one receives personal revelation and decide to share it does this now equal they follow some horrific path to hell? Does this become a sign that someone is out to “brainwash” you to follow them? No of course not! Instead one should look within themselves and question why it is they are so uncomfortable and threatened by someone sharing their revelations or views. We seem so hyper focused on pointing the finger at people and yelling “apostate! apostate!” when they do not exactly align with how we see things.

And this “we will mourn for you” seems a little bit over dramatic to me. I feel no need to mourn for someone who shares their personal revelation. I actually find it very interesting to hear those things people are open to sharing. When I feel a need to mourn for someone it’s when they have dealt with a horrible event in their lives or such. I’m not going to mourn for someone who has nothing to be mourned. Personal revelation should be celebrated… not put in a bucket with mourning!

When you approach something with a preconceived notion you will never open your mind enough to gain growth of any kind.

Personal revelation is part of what we are about! As Mormon’s we are expected and encouraged to seek personal revelation!

“For thus saith the Lord—I, the Lord, am merciful and gracious unto those who fear me, and delight to honor those who serve me in righteousness and in truth unto the end. Great shall be their reward and eternal shall be their glory. And to them [the whole body of the kingdom] will I reveal all mysteries, yea, all the hidden mysteries of my kingdom from days of old, and for ages to come, will I make known unto them the good pleasure of my will concerning all things pertaining to my kingdom. Yea, even the wonders of eternity shall they know, and things to come will I show them, even the things of many generations. And their wisdom shall be great, and their understanding reach to heaven; and before them the wisdom of the wise shall perish, and the understanding of the prudent shall come to naught. For by my Spirit will I enlighten them, and by my power will I make known unto them the secrets of my will—yea, even those things which eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor yet entered into the heart of man.” D&C 76:5-10

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

So Helaman and Mark, you condescend to post on this thread and start a conversation with yourselves about how much you pity the original poster and those that agree with him as if he/they aren't even here? You two must really not know how pompous you sound.

Maybe I should be worried about you two being deceived by a Bishop, Stake President, GA, or Apostle that is a wolf in sheep's clothing. Brigham Young said there are those who were inspired by Satan to join the church (whether they know it or not) and work their way up church leadership with the goal of destroying the church (it's in the teachings of Brigham Young). President Benson spoke of the same thing. In the end we are not safe in following authority just because they have authority. We are all in the same position, whether you reject any advice from those who have no stewardship over you or if you look for truth where ever it is found (encouraged by Joseph and Brigham BTW).

So please take it easy. You may be deceived and err by following your bishop before any of us are deceived by Hugh Nibley or anyone with some wisdom or knowledge to share. The spirit is the key to discernment, and it can work no matter what the source of information. How about encouraging people to be worthy of the Holy Ghost and seek the gifts of the spirit instead of discouraging the pursuit of truth.

++1