Does the Church Use Paid Persons to Monitor Our Discussions?

[awakecaptain of 100]

I believe that God will allow an unworthy Prophet to remain in office and not remove him by his own power, even if that Prophet has completely fallen and is leading the Church astray.

Here is the official doctrine on the subject, as it appears in the official manual for the Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual, Religion 333. This material has been approved by the leaders of the church and must be accepted unquestioningly as 100% absolute, pure, unadulterated truth.

http://institute.lds.org/manuals/teachi ... lp-3-7.asp

(3-7) The Lord Will Never Permit the Living Prophet to Lead the Church Astray

The following are three testimonies which show clearly that the Lord will never allow his prophet to lead the Church out of the path of truth:

“I bear you my solemn witness that we have a living prophet, seer, and revelator. We are not dependent only upon the revelations given in the past . . . we have a mouthpiece to whom God is revealing his mind and will. God will never permit him to lead us astray. As has been said, God would remove us out of our place if we should attempt to do it. You have not concern. Let the management and government of God, then, be with the Lord. Do not try to find fault with the management and affairs that pertain to him alone and by revelation through his prophet.” (Harold B. Lee, “The Place of the Living Prophet, Seer, and Revelator,” in Charge, p. 112.)

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President [Heber J.] Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting, I drove him home. . . . When we got to his home I got out of the car and went up on the porch with him. Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church, and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Marion G. Romney, in Conference Report, Oct. 1960, p. 78.)

“I say to Israel, the Lord will never permit me or any other man who stands as president of this Church to lead you astray. It is not in the programme. It is not in the mind of God. If I were to attempt that the Lord would remove me out of my place, and so He will any other man who attempts to lead the children of men astray from the oracles of God and from their duty.” (Wilford Woodruff, in “General Conference,” Millennial Star, 24 Nov. 1890 [52:741]; or The Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, pp. 212–13.)

A man who is out of harmony with the Lord will never lead the Lord’s church. God will not permit it. The following quotations make that clear:

“Safety is in following divinely appointed leadership and counsel. . . .

“The keys of this power and authority center in the president of the High Priesthood of the Church. It is not given to any other man to so represent God here upon the earth. . . .

“God will not suffer his Church, established for the last time in this the Dispensation of the Fulness of Times when a restitution of all things is to be accomplished, to be led by a fallen prophet, or by someone whom he does not want.” (Delbert L. Stapley, in Conference Report, Apr. 1952, pp. 49–50.)

“I testify in the name of Israel’s God that He will not suffer the head of the Church, him whom He has chosen to stand at the head, to transgress His laws and apostatize; the moment he should take a course that would in time lead to it, God would take him away. Why? Because to suffer a wicked man to occupy that position would be to allow, as it were, the fountain to become corrupted, which is something He will never permit.” (Joseph F. Smith, in Journal of Discourses, 24:192.)



(3-8) What Should We Remember about the Prerogatives of the Living Prophet?

“In conclusion, let us summarize this grand key, these ‘Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet,’ for our salvation hangs on them.

“First: The prophet is the only man who speaks for the Lord in everything.

“Second: The living prophet is more vital to us than the standard works.

“Third: The living prophet is more important to us than a dead prophet.

“Fourth: The prophet will never lead the Church astray.

“Fifth: The prophet is not required to have any particular earthly training or credentials to speak on any subject or act on any matter at any time.

“Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

“Seventh: The prophet tells us what we need to know, not always what we want to know.

“Eighth: The prophet is not limited by men’s reasoning.

“Ninth: The prophet can receive revelation on any matter, temporal or spiritual.

“Tenth: The prophet may be involved in civic matters.

“Eleventh: The two groups who have the greatest difficulty in following the prophet are the proud who are learned and the proud who are rich.

“Twelfth: The prophet will not necessarily be popular with the world or the worldly.

“Thirteenth: The prophet and his counselors make up the First Presidency—the highest quorum in the Church.

“Fourteenth: The prophet and the presidency—the living prophet and the First Presidency—follow them and be blessed; reject them and suffer.

“I testify that these fourteen fundamentals in following the living prophet are true.” (Benson, “Fourteen Fundamentals,” p. 30.)

Even the Church teaches that no matter 'who or how many' leaders or Prophets may teach that doctrine or any doctrine, if it is not supported by scripture or it is contrary to scriptures than it is just their opinion, at best & if contrary to scriptures, then it is false.

It would not be the 1st time that many, if not most, leaders & even 'Presidents of the Church' have taught doctrine that is contrary to the scriptures.

I do not find anywhere where this teaching is supported by scripture. It appears these leaders only gained such a belief because of what earlier leaders had said, it does not appear to come from the scriptures.

In fact, this teaching appears to be 'contrary' to what Joseph Smith taught in D&C 107, that if a President of the Church does fall, which infers he can in fact 'fall' & teach false doctrine, then the church leadership is responsible to remove him, (if they detect his errors). It does not ever say that God will remove him.

I believe God gives Presidents of the Church just as much agency to fall and led people astray as anyone else in the Church, as a test to see if we can be deceived to not and if we will stay on our toes or not. Though I realize that makes some people uncomfortable, for it put the responsibility for our salvation on our own shoulders.

"Whenever you find any doctrine, any idea, any expression from any source whatsoever that is in conflict with that which the Lord has revealed and which is found in the holy scriptures, you may be assured that it is false and you should put is aside and stand firmly grounded in the truth in prayer and in faith, relying upon the Spirit of the Lord."
Elder Joseph F. Smith, CR Apr. 1917, 59-60, 64.

"My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man's doctrine."
Joseph Fielding Smith

"If we want to measure truth, we should measure it by the four standard works, regardless of who writes it. If it is not in the standard works, we may well assume that it is speculation, man's own opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scriptures, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth."
Harold B. Lee

"You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards of doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works. Every man who writes is responsible, not the Church, for what he writes. If Joseph Fielding Smith writes something which is out of harmony with the revelations, then every member of the Church is duty bound to reject it. If he writes that which is in perfect harmony with the revealed word of the Lord, then it should be accepted."
Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 3:203-204.

"If any man writes to you or preaches to you, doctrines contrary to the Bible, the Book of Mormon, or the Book of Doctrine and Covenants, set him down as an imposter."
Times and Seasons, 5:490-491.

"Six of the original twelve apostles selected by Joseph Smith were excommunicated. The three witnesses to the Book of Mormon left the Church. Three of Joseph Smith's counselors fell - one even helped plot his death. A natural question that might arise would be that if the Lord knew in advance that these men would fall, as he undoubtedly did, why did he have his prophet call them to such high office? The answer is, to fill the Lord's purposes. For even the Master followed the will of the Father by selecting Judas. Pres. George Q. Cannon suggested an explanation, too, when he stated, "Perhaps it is his own design that faults and weaknesses should appear in high places in order that his saints may learn to trust in him and not in any man or men."
Ezra T. Benson, "An Enemy Hath Done This", p. 290.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

Even the Church teaches that no matter 'who or how many' leaders or Prophets may teach that doctrine or any doctrine, if it is not supported by scripture or it is contrary to scriptures than it is just their opinion, at best & if contrary to scriptures, then it is false.

It would not be the 1st time that many, if not most, leaders & even 'Presidents of the Church' have taught doctrine that is contrary to the scriptures.

I've seen it a couple of times that the Ensign is to be treated as scripture, especially the GC editions.

In fact, this teaching appears to be 'contrary' to what Joseph Smith taught in D&C 107, that if a President of the Church does fall, which infers he can in fact 'fall' & teach false doctrine, then the church leadership is responsible to remove him, (if they detect his errors). It does not ever say that God will remove him.

Don't the words of the current prophets override the words of those past?

Though I realize that makes some people uncomfortable, for it put the responsibility for our salvation on our own shoulders.

If the prophet can be wrong how can we be certain that JS was right about everything?

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

That's because the infallible idea and God will remove him doctrine is false. That's why its nowhere in the scriptures. Also, I don't believe even Joseph was past making errors on occasion. We know that he did in fact. The lost papers just as an example.All men have weaknesses and sometimes succumb to them. Christ is the only one to have walked the earth who lived out a perfect obedient life. But if you want to know if any prophet is correct about something then it takes the Holy Ghost to discern that. Also, the scriptures are a good measuring stick. That is why we cannot be saved on borrowed light. We must talk to God for ourselves and get confirmations on things before we just accept something as fact no matter who says it. The majority of the time you can trust what a prophet says but they are still human and sometimes just speak opinions also.

[awakecaptain of 100]

I've seen it a couple of times that the Ensign is to be treated as scripture, especially the GC editions.

Don't the words of the current prophets override the words of those past?

If the prophet can be wrong how can we be certain that JS was right about everything?

The Ensign is not considered part of the 'standard works', only the Bible, Book or Mormon, D&C & PoGP are.
Even in GC there have been many contradictory teachings taught by various leaders. The things said in GC that agree with the scriptures can of course be considered truth, but not everything said in GC is in line with the scriptures.

As those quotes I posted state, even the words of current Prophets can't override ancient Prophets of the Book of Mormon (which teachings are the keystone of our religion) or Joseph Smith's inspired teachings. All true prophets will teach the very same doctrines, they can't contradict each other or we know one is wrong.

The way we know if JS was right on something is the same way any investigator judges whether JS & his teachings are true or not, by whether he teaches according to the words of Christ. For all true Prophets will teach the same things that Christ did and never vary. We use the New Testament and also the Holy Spirit to confirm if what Joseph Smith is teaching is true or not. Even Joseph Smith had to learn line upon line and didn't get everything right, especially in the earlier years, like with slavery, his beliefs seemed to evolve into understanding how wrong it really was.

Once we have a testimony of the truth of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon & D&C then we can use those to judge the truthfulness or error of any other leader's teachings, for no one can ever contradict Joseph Smith's inspired teaching or the scriptures he gave us.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

The Ensign is not considered part of the 'standard works', only the Bible, Book or Mormon, D&C & PoGP are.

Didn't say "standard works," I said "scriptures". I first recall encountering this idea in the MTC and have heard it a couple of times since.

[awakecaptain of 100]

The Ensign is not considered part of the 'standard works', only the Bible, Book or Mormon, D&C & PoGP are.

Didn't say "standard works," I said "scriptures". I first recall encountering this idea in the MTC and have heard it a couple of times since.

All truth from anyone could probably be considered scripture, but since everyone errors, we are told to judge every man's doctrine or opinions by only the 4 books of the standard works.

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Is the Doctrine of Jesus Christ so complicated we need worry about Prophets and Apostles 'getting it wrong'?

In this week's Book of Mormon lesson we cover the baptismal covenant made by Alma and his people. (I'm still trying to figure out where and when Alma got his Priesthood Authority since he was one of king Noah's corrupt priests until he heard Abinadi preach repentance to the people of Lehi/Neiphi, but that's a 'mystery' to be discovered at another time.)

anyway...IS the Doctrine of Christ really so complex?

Mosiah 18
18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

19 And he commanded them that athey should teach nothing save it were the things which he had taught, and which had been spoken by the mouth of the holy prophets.

20 Yea, even he commanded them that they should preach nothing save it were repentance and faith on the Lord, who had redeemed his people.

21 And he commanded them that there should be no contention one with another, but that they should look forward with one eye, having one faith and one baptism, having their hearts knit together in unity and in love one towards another.

22 And thus he commanded them to preach. And thus they became the children of God.

Out of his own mouth, the resurrected Christ declared:

3 Nephi
32 And this is my doctrine, and it is the doctrine which the Father hath given unto me; and I bear record of the Father, and the Father beareth record of me, and the Holy Ghost beareth record of the Father and me; and I bear record that the Father commandeth all men, everywhere, to repent and believe in me.

33 And whoso believeth in me, and is baptized, the same shall be saved; and they are they who shall inherit the kingdom of God.

34 And whoso believeth not in me, and is not baptized, shall be damned.

35 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and I bear record of it from the Father; and whoso believeth in me believeth in the Father also; and unto him will the Father bear record of me, for he will visit him with fire and with the Holy Ghost.

36 And thus will the Father bear record of me, and the Holy Ghost will bear record unto him of the Father and me; for the Father, and I, and the Holy Ghost are one.

37 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and become as a little child, and be baptized in my name, or ye can in nowise receive these things.

38 And again I say unto you, ye must repent, and be baptized in my name, and become as a little child, or ye can in nowise inherit the kingdom of God.

39 Verily, verily, I say unto you, that this is my doctrine, and whoso buildeth upon this buildeth upon my rock, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against them.

40 And whoso shall declare more or less than this, and establish it for my doctrine, the same cometh of evil, and is not built upon my rock; but he buildeth upon a sandy foundation, and the gates of hell stand open to receive such when the floods come and the winds beat upon them.

Repentance, baptism, faith in Christ.

Seems pretty simple to me! I'm not sure how anyone could be led astray.

Excerpt from Address given by Elder D. Todd Christofferson, Sunday Morning, April 2012 General Conference
"The Doctrine of Christ"

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/p ... &clang=eng

These same patterns are followed today in the restored Church of Jesus Christ. The President of the Church may announce or interpret doctrines based on revelation to him (see, for example, D&C 138). Doctrinal exposition may also come through the combined council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles (see, for example, Official Declaration 2). Council deliberations will often include a weighing of canonized scriptures, the teachings of Church leaders, and past practice. But in the end, just as in the New Testament Church, the objective is not simply consensus among council members but revelation from God. It is a process involving both reason and faith for obtaining the mind and will of the Lord.4

At the same time it should be remembered that not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. It is commonly understood in the Church that a statement made by one leader on a single occasion often represents a personal, though well-considered, opinion, not meant to be official or binding for the whole Church. The Prophet Joseph Smith taught that “a prophet [is] a prophet only when he [is] acting as such.”5 President Clark, quoted earlier, observed:

“To this point runs a simple story my father told me as a boy, I do not know on what authority, but it illustrates the point. His story was that during the excitement incident to the coming of [Johnston’s] Army, Brother Brigham preached to the people in a morning meeting a sermon vibrant with defiance to the approaching army, and declaring an intention to oppose and drive them back. In the afternoon meeting he arose and said that Brigham Young had been talking in the morning, but the Lord was going to talk now. He then delivered an address, the tempo of which was the opposite from the morning talk. …

“… The Church will know by the testimony of the Holy Ghost in the body of the members, whether the brethren in voicing their views are ‘moved upon by the Holy Ghost’; and in due time that knowledge will be made manifest.”6

from footnote 2

2. Apostles and prophets such as Joseph Smith declare God’s word, but in addition, we believe men and women generally and even children can learn from and be guided by divine inspiration in response to prayer and study of the scriptures. Just as in the days of the ancient Apostles, members of the Church of Jesus Christ are given the gift of the Holy Ghost, which facilitates an ongoing communication with their Heavenly Father, or, in other words, personal revelation (see Acts 2:37–38). In this way, the Church becomes a body of committed, spiritually mature individuals whose faith is not blind but seeing—informed and confirmed by the Holy Spirit. This is not to say that every member speaks for the Church or can define its doctrines but that each can receive divine guidance in dealing with the challenges and opportunities of his or her life.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

"Seems pretty simple to me! I'm not sure how anyone could be led astray." And yet the book of mormon and other scriptures speak repeatedly on God's children been led astray. Whether it is simple or not, men and women are constantly led astray. Usually because of a lack of humility and laziness in not seeking.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

"Since it is impossible to compel men to salvation, the priesthood can only invite, and persuade. The priesthood acknowledges it has the burden to persuade, and to convince, and cannot simply say something is so because they have authority. (D&C 121: 41.) Those who hold priesthood power can only proceed using "persuasion, longsuffering, gentleness and meekness" to enlighten those with eyes to see. (Id.) When this process is followed there is another law which confers upon the practitioner "love unfeigned" for those to whom they minister. (Id.) When they walk alongside their Lord and accept His yoke they find His love for others. This is the natural result of obeying the law governing priesthood. Love does not need to be feigned when the Lord bestows it as a grace, or an endowment, or a gift of His Spirit to one who follows Him."

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

I believe that God will allow an unworthy Prophet to remain in office and not remove him by his own power, even if that Prophet has completely fallen and is leading the Church astray.

Here is the official doctrine on the subject, as it appears in the official manual for the Teachings of the Living Prophets student manual, Religion 333. This material has been approved by the leaders of the church and must be accepted unquestioningly as 100% absolute, pure, unadulterated truth.

Just a thought to ponder.

If the church really could lead man astray, do you really think they would tell you that they could?

I mean, aren't all those quotes by church leaders a little self-serving?

Just a thought.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Is the Doctrine of Jesus Christ so complicated we need worry about Prophets and Apostles 'getting it wrong'?

In this week's Book of Mormon lesson we cover the baptismal covenant made by Alma and his people. (I'm still trying to figure out where and when Alma got his Priesthood Authority since he was one of king Noah's corrupt priests until he heard Abinadi preach repentance to the people of Lehi/Neiphi, but that's a 'mystery' to be discovered at another time.)

5 For he put down all the priests that had been consecrated by his father, and consecrated new ones in their stead, such as were lifted up in the pride of their hearts.

Alma's line of authority came through Zeniff and Noah. But whether that authority was valid due to worthiness is not known. Regardless,

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

I believe that his authority from God came from King Noah, who consecrated Alma. Ceremony is important with regard to giving authority, else Joseph Smith could have been given authority from God without needing to receive it by the laying on of hands by the resurrected John the Baptist, Peter, James and John. In my opinion, Alma's line authority traces back to Nephi who had consecrated Jacob and Joseph to be priests as well.

[awakecaptain of 100]

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

I believe that his authority from God came from King Noah, who consecrated Alma.

I believe that Alma received his Priesthood power and authority, at least the 2nd time around, directly from God the same way Joseph Smith did.

For I believe D&C 121 is clear that men lose their Priesthood power, authority & keys if they become wicked, like we know King Noah was.

And Alma himself lost any Priesthood power and authority or keys he may have held, because of his own wickedness. Which had to be restored once Alma repented, and which King Noah would not have been worthy, able or willing to do. For King Noah also lost his ability to retain or pass on any Priesthood power or authority because of his wickedness. Thus, there was an apparent apostasy in the Church at the time.

Thus because of apostasy, I believe Alma, like Joseph, had to receive his Priesthood power and authority again, straight from righteous men from the Spirit World.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

I have heard this as well and I tend to agree. Someone having had the keys could/would have visited Alma and as nobody had resurrected as of yet, it was very likely someone from the Spirit World. But that being the case, the word of the Lord to Alma should have sufficed.

[awakecaptain of 100]

And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God,

Maybe it literally was 'straight from God', the Father, as the scripture says, for God had a resurrected body.

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

Not a perfectly fleshed out thought, but just an attempt to make sense of words from authoritative sources that sometimes agree and disagree. Each can be given a different weight of importance, but the idea is about discerning truth and direction for life when the voices don't always align and overlap each other perfectly:

MoreSureWords small.png (145.25 KiB) Viewed 309 times

Again, this is just fluff -- a doodle.

[awakecaptain of 100]

Matt,

For myself, I would need the 'scriptures', not the Spirit, to overlap with one or more of the others, to consider anything true. For most LDS people I know are often led & deceived by the wrong spirit, thinking it's the right spirit and if they find some past or present leader or person to agree with them, which is easy, then they could & do assume the idea is true.

Whereas, I myself don't trust or listen to my own revelation (Spirit) or anyone else's 'revelation', even leaders, unless it totally squares with the holy scriptures. For I know how easy it is to be led by a wrong spirit & think it's the Holy Ghost.

The 'scriptures' are my only 'more sure words', everything & everyone & every Spirit & even every personage from heaven, has to agree with those scriptures. For me, the buck stops there. For that is what Joseph Smith taught us.

"How, it may be asked, was this known to be a bad angel? By his contradicting a former revelation."
Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 215-216.

"But though we or an angel form heaven preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
Gal. 1:8

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

@awake, thanks for the feedback. I see your point. I guess why I didn't think of it that way is that many people can read the same scriptures and still come up with opposite interpretations, whilst the Spirit (of God) does not lie. (Granted, other spirits do.) Often, the Spirit is what makes the scriptures come alive/applicable to us. However, how to distinguish between true and false spiritual impressions..? I think if there is a question or confusion, that's where it helps to find some overlap between more than one or several voices. When facing important decisions, I think it would me well to consult each circle/voice of influence, study it out by identifying where there is harmony or disagreement.

I was trying to show how one can sort through all of these voices of authority that sometimes disagree or vary. What I doodled is by no means a perfect or complete for me or anyone else. It was just an attempt to portray an idea I had as I was reading through posts by people using different scriptures and prophets to contradict each other.

Personally, I put a lot of weight on the words of Book of Mormon prophets, revelations and teachings that came through Joseph Smith, and the New Testament gospels, especially the words or teachings attributed to the savior. My graphic doesn't attempt to assign weight to things. The Spirit circle overlapping various words/sources is only meant to show that teachings from those sources usually don't become alive for me until I feel a spiritual confirmation or direction to act on them.

[awakecaptain of 100]

@awake, thanks for the feedback. I see your point. I guess why I didn't think of it that way is that many people can read the same scriptures and still come up with opposite interpretations, whilst the Spirit (of God) does not lie. (Granted, other spirits do.) Often, the spirit is what makes the scriptures come alive/applicable to us. However, how to distinguish between true and false spiritual impressions..? I think if there is a question or confusion, that's where it helps to find some overlap between more than one or several voices. When facing important decisions, I think it would me well to consult each circle/voice of influence, study it out by identifying where there is harmony or disagreement.

I was trying to show how one can sort through all of these voices of authority that sometimes disagree or vary. What I doodled is by no means a perfect or complete for me or anyone else. It was just an attempt to portray an idea I had as I was reading through posts by people using different scriptures and prophets to contradict each other.

Personally, I put a lot of weight on the words of Book of Mormon prophets, revelations and teachings that came through Joseph Smith, and the New Testament gospels, especially the words or teachings attributed to the savior. My graphic doesn't attempt to assign weight to things. The Spirit circle overlapping various words/sources is only meant to show that teachings from those sources usually don't become alive for me until I feel a spiritual confirmation or direction to act on them.

I hope I didn't sound critical, I really appreciate all your work on this chart to help us consider all the different voices out there that may help us make the right decisions and interpretations.

I totally agree with you that it's so easy to misinterpret the scriptures too, just like it's easy to misinterpret what Spirit is giving us revelation & inspiration. Thus the whole process is tricky and why we need to recheck our desires & thinking & everything over & over & make sure we aren't being deceived in some way.

I just see almost everyone today being deceived by what they always think is the Holy Ghost confirming things to them. So I tend to cringe a little when I hear someone say that the Spirit confirmed something, yet they don't recheck that revelation with a deep study of the scriptures and doctrine.

I agree with you that we need at least '2 witnesses' to help us not be deceived, hopefully they are the Spirit and the scriptures, and even then we could still be easily deceived.

I agree with you that feedback from others viewpoints, especially church leaders, is very helpful, but I have also found that a person can find supportive teachings from even leaders to support almost any side of any issue, right or wrong. For as you mentioned, even leaders often have opposite points of view on various doctrines.

So again, we are back to square one, where we can only hope & pray that we are just living righteous enough to have the 'right' Spirit to guide us and help us 'interpret' the scriptures correctly. I believe that if we are more concerned with 'doing what's right' than with 'being right' then that really helps us find the truth and not become blind or stuck on our own desires or ideas.

Thanks for all your insights!

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

I hope I didn't sound critical...

No worries there, my reply to your feedback was simply to further clarify my intent or thoughts. I also wanted to point out that I didn't add weight or display any of the voices as being more significant than others. The only exception being the voice of the Spirit, which I made smaller a la "still, small voice."

I just see almost everyone today being deceived by what they always think is the Holy Ghost confirming things to them. So I tend to cringe a little when I hear someone say that the Spirit confirmed something, yet they don't recheck that revelation with a deep study of the scriptures and doctrine.

I agree with you that we need at least '2 witnesses' to help us not be deceived, hopefully they are the Spirit and the scriptures, and even then we could still be easily deceived.

Indeed, and let the amount of study match the size or import of the question at hand.

I believe that if we are more concerned with 'doing what's right' than with 'being right' then that really helps us find the truth and not become blind or stuck on our own desires or ideas.

I like this!

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

So again, we are back to square one, where we can only hope & pray that we are just living righteous enough to have the 'right' Spirit to guide us and help us 'interpret' the scriptures correctly. I believe that if we are more concerned with 'doing what's right' than with 'being right' then that really helps us find the truth and not become blind or stuck on our own desires or ideas.!

In "doing" we "become" and "becoming" is "being." Christ told us, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect."

Everyone can relate to learning and mastering a skill or developing a talent. Riding a bike, for example requires learning to balance, pedaling with enough momentum to gain speed, being able to steer in the right direction, etc, etc. At first we fail and fail again as we try to master these small rules and we gain confidence the longer we are able to maintain balance while pedaling faster or in circles, etc. until it become second nature. You no longer are conscious of having to pedal with momentum to start that initial drive while balancing and not crashing into something or someone. And at first, it seems impossible not to crash into something when that something is all you're focused on. I remember my sister crashed into a pole the first time she was able to pedal for more than about twenty feet. Why? It is very likely that she was trying so hard not to crash into anything, the very obstacle that she was trying to avoid became her focus. Simply put, we go where we focus our sights. When you're driving on the highway and see a large roadkill, you instinctively move to avoid it. You immediately shift your focus from the mess to the amount of space and time it will require to avoid it. You focus then on the path around it.

The same thing applies to finding truth or developing a relationship with our Savior. We learn the basics. Do not judge. Do not steal. Love thy neighbor. With enough time, experience, trials and tribulations, we truly learn that obedience to the commandments becomes second nature. We learn to get along with that relative with whom we bear such a grudge. We even learn to love him unconditionally and see him as God sees him. We learn that stealing hurts someone because it robs them of their property, hard work, etc. We learn to love to obey commandments because of the joy that it brings us to be in harmony with the Spirit as it purifies us with its constant companionship. And when doing these things becomes in our nature without giving thought or effort to doing them, we become more and more like Christ and our Father in Heaven.

Moroni explains this so eloquently in chapter 7, but more specifically:

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

In D&C 93:1 Christ promises:

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

By the time we are privileged to receive the Second Comforter, we will be sufficiently meek, broken, humble, penitent and submissive. These are the same qualities that Christ developed as well as He grew into the Master. It becomes our nature to have faith, hope and charity in our desire to be completely obedient that our eyes are single to His glory. We live our day to day lives as He lived his day to day life when He walked the earth. And we become pure even as He is pure. And with the Savior and the Spirit as our guide we can interpret the scriptures correctly.

[awakecaptain of 100]

In "doing" we "become" and "becoming" is "being." Christ told us, "Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I, or your Father who is in heaven is perfect."

Everyone can relate to learning and mastering a skill or developing a talent. Riding a bike, for example requires learning to balance, pedaling with enough momentum to gain speed, being able to steer in the right direction, etc, etc. At first we fail and fail again as we try to master these small rules and we gain confidence the longer we are able to maintain balance while pedaling faster or in circles, etc. until it become second nature. You no longer are conscious of having to pedal with momentum to start that initial drive while balancing and not crashing into something or someone. And at first, it seems impossible not to crash into something when that something is all you're focused on. I remember my sister crashed into a pole the first time she was able to pedal for more than about twenty feet. Why? It is very likely that she was trying so hard not to crash into anything, the very obstacle that she was trying to avoid became her focus. Simply put, we go where we focus our sights. When you're driving on the highway and see a large roadkill, you instinctively move to avoid it. You immediately shift your focus from the mess to the amount of space and time it will require to avoid it. You focus then on the path around it.

The same thing applies to finding truth or developing a relationship with our Savior. We learn the basics. Do not judge. Do not steal. Love thy neighbor. With enough time, experience, trials and tribulations, we truly learn that obedience to the commandments becomes second nature. We learn to get along with that relative with whom we bear such a grudge. We even learn to love him unconditionally and see him as God sees him. We learn that stealing hurts someone because it robs them of their property, hard work, etc. We learn to love to obey commandments because of the joy that it brings us to be in harmony with the Spirit as it purifies us with its constant companionship. And when doing these things becomes in our nature without giving thought or effort to doing them, we become more and more like Christ and our Father in Heaven.

Moroni explains this so eloquently in chapter 7, but more specifically:

Moroni 7:48
48 Wherefore, my beloved brethren, pray unto the Father with all the energy of heart, that ye may be filled with this love, which he hath bestowed upon all who are true followers of his Son, Jesus Christ; that ye may become the sons of God; that when he shall appear we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is; that we may have this hope; that we may be purified even as he is pure. Amen.

In D&C 93:1 Christ promises:

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

By the time we are privileged to receive the Second Comforter, we will be sufficiently meek, broken, humble, penitent and submissive. These are the same qualities that Christ developed as well as He grew into the Master. It becomes our nature to have faith, hope and charity in our desire to be completely obedient that our eyes are single to His glory. We live our day to day lives as He lived his day to day life when He walked the earth. And we become pure even as He is pure. And with the Savior and the Spirit as our guide we can interpret the scriptures correctly.

Thank you Coach, that was wonderful. I certainly agree.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

18 And it came to pass that Alma, having authority from God, ordained priests; even one priest to every fifty of their number did he ordain to preach unto them, and to teach them concerning the things pertaining to the kingdom of God.

I believe that his authority from God came from King Noah, who consecrated Alma.

I believe that Alma received his Priesthood power and authority, at least the 2nd time around, directly from God the same way Joseph Smith did.

For I believe D&C 121 is clear that men lose their Priesthood power, authority & keys if they become wicked, like we know King Noah was.

And Alma himself lost any Priesthood power and authority or keys he may have held, because of his own wickedness. Which had to be restored once Alma repented, and which King Noah would not have been worthy, able or willing to do. For King Noah also lost his ability to retain or pass on any Priesthood power or authority because of his wickedness. Thus, there was an apparent apostasy in the Church at the time.

Thus because of apostasy, I believe Alma, like Joseph, had to receive his Priesthood power and authority again, straight from righteous men from the Spirit World.

Or rather from translated beings (anyone from City of Enoch), Melchizedek & his people, Moses, Elijah, just to name a few....

As for Alma getting authority from King Noah, who got it from Zeniff...what authority is that? Th only authority mentioned is at his second attempt to reclaim the Land of Nephi, Zeniff was recognized as only the leader of the expedition (no indication King Mosiah I ordained him a king & priest)...and he is the point man for negotiating terms with the Lamanite King...so how did he become a king (did the people vote for him?), by what authority (did the Lamanite king designate Zeniff as the king?), and what authority (before God) does a king have to ordain priests and confer upon them the power of God?

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

In D&C 93:1 Christ promises:

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Even Enos, one of the contributors to the Book of Mormon died without seeing the face of Jesus in the flesh.

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Legion, of it's all the same to you I have some pretty hard feelings against you at the moment so could you please not reply to my posts? Thanks.

FWIW, this board has private messaging, and we each have our own ignore list.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

In D&C 93:1 Christ promises:

Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Even Enos, one of the contributors to the Book of Mormon died without seeing the face of Jesus in the flesh.

We don't know for certain. Enos didn't tell us everything he heard and saw.

19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

We don't know for certain. Enos didn't tell us everything he heard and saw.

19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

Enos 1:27:

And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face

[minganocaptain of 1,000]

FWIW, this board has private messaging, and we each have our own ignore list.

Ya... I've figured that out.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

We don't know for certain. Enos didn't tell us everything he heard and saw.

19 And now it came to pass that I, Enos, went about among the people of Nephi, prophesying of things to come, and testifying of the things which I had heard and seen.

Enos 1:27:

And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face

Yes, I am familiar with that verse too. Here's the full verse:

27 And I soon go to the place of my rest, which is with my Redeemer; for I know that in him I shall rest. And I rejoice in the day when my mortal shall put on immortality, and shall stand before him; then shall I see his face with pleasure, and he will say unto me: Come unto me, ye blessed, there is a place prepared for you in the mansions of my Father. Amen.

It is ambiguous to say the least. He is not saying that he shall see Christ's face for the first time as in "then shall I finally see his face." He is simply stating that he shall then see Christ's face as will we all after we die, though no doubt very few today have seen His face already. Don't misunderstand me because I am not saying that you're wrong. I'm only saying that we don't know about all of his revelations.

[Thinkercaptain of 100]

...It is really interesting to see people on one side of the debate always talking about finding safety in following the "brethren" and staying true to the "church" while the people on the other side of the debate speak of "following the Holy Ghost" and being true to the "gospel".

I would like to ask the folks on this forum a two primary questions:

1. "Is it possible to file a complaint against someone to the appropriate church authorities and request that a disciplinary church court be held to evaluate their standing in the church without being 'critical' of their actions or statements?"

Please think this question over really carefully cuz it is a trick question.

I personally don't think it is possible to bring someone into a church court without making a critical assessment of something they have done wrong.

Obviously we are to love the sinner but not embrace the sin that is committed. Nevertheless, we still hold those wonderful "courts of love" that result in destroying people's reputations, families and livelihoods... and for good reason.. usually.

I don't think that being critical is categorically bad.

Sometimes it is bad, but sometimes it is necessary and justified...


Is it only the people who are in leadership positions who are allowed to make critical judgments?

Obviously, church courts are conducted by those who are in certain leadership positions and ultimately it is those people that have the awesome and unenviable responsibility of passing disciplinary judgment on their fellow saints, but I would venture to guess that in most cases, the sin is brought to the attention of the leadership by a concerned member of the church who is not going to ultimately be sitting in judgment in the church court.

Do lay members of the church have the right and responsibility to make these critical observations when they see them?

Of course they do. That is what the Lord has commanded us to do.

Remember, the following passage in the New Testament?-

" JUDGE not, that ye be not judged."

It represents a corrupted passage of scripture.

It was corrected and restored to it's original statement in the JST

"Judge not unrighteously, that ye be not judged; but judge righteous judgment."



Next question. (this one is also a trick question of sorts)

Why did the Lord provide specific instructions on how to hold a church court for the President of the Church?

Was he being facetious or disingenuous when he gave us that protocol or was he being serious?

If it is really a cardinal sin to ever be critical of the Prophet of the Church and if we are to turn and look the other way and leave it up to the Lord to correct the situation whenever the president of the Church does something that is potentially harmful to the church or his own personal spiritual well being, WHY DID THE LORD GIVE US INSTRUCTIONS ON HOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE CHURCH CAN BE DISCIPLINED OR EXCOMMUNICATED?

I would suggest that it is because the Lord, in his infinite foreknowledge and wisdom knew that Presidents of the church are human beings that are subject to making serious mistakes just like everyone else.

I would suggest that He knew that there would (or at least could) be future circumstances when a president of the church might do something wrong for which he would need to be corrected, if not cut off.

Interestingly, there are people in this forum who seem to believe that it would be a mortal sin to ever be critical of the president of the church and other general authorities.

The very belief that nobody should ever be critical of the president of the church completely negates the Lords instructions on how to hold a church court on the president of the church.

If church members have no right or responsibility to make righteous judgments about how the church is being governed then it appears as if the Lord made a very serious error in providing a protocol for holding a disciplinary counsil concerning the conduct of the president of the church.

It is interesting to note that Joseph Smith was actually brought before a disciplinary court as a result of a complaint by a fellow saint stemming from issues that took place during Zions Camp.

The brother who filed the charges was named Sylvester Smith, one of the captains who served in the Zion's Camp expedition. The charges had to do with "criminal conduct" along with the fact that Sylvester felt that Joseph had used "insulting and abusive language" towards him.

One can only imagine what was going on in the minds of the council members who tried the case. Perhaps they were wondering what would ever happen to the church in the event that the Lord's prophet seer and revelator was ever excommunicated from the church.

The court ultimately rendered a verdict in favor of Joseph.

To the credit of Sylvester Smith, who was reprimanded as a result of the church council that he caused to be held, he did not leave the church because of that incident.

To the credit of Joseph Smith who was deeply humiliated in front of the entire church by the court proceedings and some of the testimony that was given by other witnesses that sided with Sylvester, he did not seek retribution of any kind.

Within a year after Sylvester brought charges against the Prophet, he was called to serve on the Kirtland High Council and shortly after that, he was called and ordained as one of the inaugural presidents of the Seventies which would indicate to me that neither Joseph Smith or the Lord harbored ill will against him for bringing the critical charges against the prophet.

There are obviously some disagreements between members of this forum as to whether there are serious problems within the church.

One thing is for sure, if there ever are serious problems with the leaders of this church, the problem can never be corrected based on the absurd notion that members of the church never have the right to ever be critical of church leaders and that only the leadership of the church have the right to be critical of their own sins.

The truth is that church leaders need to have the positive burden and tension of knowing that they are being watched by loving members who understand sound doctrine and want to accept their responsibility of participating in keeping the church on the right path.

I believe the Lord originally put two very important measures for a checks and balances between the leadership and the lay membership of this church. I believe those two measures are as follows:

1- He made members of the church responsible for bringing anyone, including church authorities into a church court anytime they commit a grievous sin.

2- He put in place the law of common consent giving the membership the right to reject new doctrines, commandments or church callings that is presented before the church

I believe both of those checks and balances have been negated by false teachings and perceptions currently held in the church.

Members have been brainwashed to believe that they can never be justified in bringing criticism against a general authority and they have been brain washed into believing that refusing to sustain the brethren in any doctrine, commandment or new leadership calling is categorically wrong and sinful.

If the church was running the way the Lord meant for it to run, someone would request that the Church look into the allegations and associated evidence that has been publicly provided regarding the use of paid employees to sway public opinion and to lie about who they actually represent.

After all, two separate witnesses who probably don't even know each other have obtained evidence and made allegations. One has actually provided compelling information which the church has made no attempt to refute or explain. (and you can be sure there are people in high places that know about the post that started this discussion.

"in the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established"

If the allegations turn out to me wrong, everyone including the general authority over the strengthening the church members committee will feel much better after having the truth be brought to light and the authorities vindicated.

If in fact the allegations are true, an investigation needs to be held to see just how far up the chain of command the responsibility goes and the necessary disciplinary action needs to take place even if it goes all the way up to an Apostle or President. By that holy process given to us by the Lord we can correct the problem and move forward.

Good points.

[Thinkercaptain of 100]

I have more reason to believe that the church is behind not only monitoring but also harassing people for opposing views.

I doubt the folks in 50 E N Temple can't find anything better to do.

Well, at least they don't monitor me. I'm harmless.

Of course there are many better things they should be doing.
But these are the same leaders who would rather tear down a mall to build a bigger mall worth billions, than help the amost 1 billion men, women & children are starving to death... all in the name of Jesus Christ. Aparently the "good Samaritan" parable only applies to us lesser members, not the top leaders.

And speaking of Jesus Christ - he taught,
"He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter [or church leader] more than me is not worthy of me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me. He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it." -Matt 10:37-39

The greatest commandments are to love God (& as we love others we love God) & to love others as ourselves... "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." -Matt 22:40