libertarians can't win, so they RUIN our Nation!

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Supporters Are Phoning It In for 2012 GOP Nomination, Mitt Romney is the Man


President Obama has officially kicked off his re-election campaign. Despite his low job approval numbers, dropping personal approval, and an economy that requires fuzzy math to get the unemployment rate even close to 8%, some conservatives are already phoning it in.



By Jesse Merkel
Many libertarians seem to be telegraphing that they’ve given up, despite protests to the contrary. While they disagree with President Obama on most issues and would love to see him lose in November, many of them have indicated that they might throw the election for one reason or another.
If an individual believes they’re going to die the next day, they’ll probably find a way to make it happen. Some believe that Obama is unbeatable. Others believe that likely Republican nominee Mitt Romney is a compromise candidate who is not conservative enough for their tastes, so screw him, screw the party, and screw the country.
Their idea is to throw it intentionally this time around and go for it again with someone ‘better’ in 2016. To these people it does not matter what Obama would do in the next four years, unrestricted by having to fight for another election. After he’s out, they can fix everything. Right?
Wrong.
Every four years we hear that the coming election is the most important one ever to come. The electoral equivalent of crying wolf, many may come to believe that there is nothing that cannot be fixed later. Unfortunately for everyone across the country, this time it happens to be true. This time, it really is the most important election of our lifetime.
If Republicans cannot overturn ObamaCare before it is fully implemented, that’s the game. Democrats will have won. There will be no going back. People will not want to give up a new entitlement. All one has to do is to look at the troubles in Greece, Spain and the U.K. to see how people react when someone comes along and tells them that they should spend a little less in order to save their country. They riot.
Conservatives cannot hope for a miracle from the Supreme Court that may not come. And besides, if Obama is re-elected, there is nothing to stop him from trying again. Not having another election to worry about, he could just executive order it back if he wished. As part of his ‘We Can’t Wait’ initiative, Obama has been signing executive orders left and right. There’s no reason not to believe he won’t go on an even bigger spree after the November election.
It’s also possible that Republicans will not win of the Senate in November. Even if they do, it’s highly unlikely that they will have majorities large enough in both houses to overrule Obama.
Conservatives of all stripes cannot afford to take this election lightly. There are several ways that conservatives could easily shoot themselves in the foot.
A floor fight at the convention would be a disaster. There have been four deadlocked conventions since 1960, each of which nominated a loser. (Several top strategists, including former Clinton advisor turned Republican Dick Morris have highlighted this beautifully.) If it goes to a fight on the floor, those that support Ron Paul could attempt to hijack the convention and the nomination. They might even walk out if Romney wins the first round of voting.
That would be a gift for the left. They could easily paint Republicans as unfit to lead. In 2008, the Democrats projected a sense of self-confidence and unity that catapulted them to victory. While the new school doesn’t like to admit it, the conventions matter.
Ron Paul supporters could also sit home, or vote for the Americans Elect or Libertarian candidate. As Ralph Nader proved, it only takes a slim number of votes peeled away to deliver a major state and a victory. Angry Ron Paul fans could easily make this happen. Many would no doubt be happy knowing that they are helping to re-elect Obama in the process.
I believe that deep down many want to see the Republicans take another beating. They’re angry that more conservatives did not rally behind their candidate of choice, and that in the past Republicans made some pretty poor choices in Washington. Now they have the excuse to jam their finger in the face of the whole country, no matter what happens afterwards.
If Republicans, Tea Partiers, Conservatives and Libertarians don’t unite, there’s no going back. Obama in his second term would be a complete nightmare. Millions will be given freebies with ObamaCare that they’ll never want to give up. Amnesty for illegal aliens could be delivered with the stroke of a pen, resulting in a permanent Democrat voting majority for the next century. Then when someone does come around preaching the need for austerity, riots will ensue. America would look like much of Europe does today.
This is not the time to phone it in, yet many libertarians and Ron Paul supporters have done just that. They believe American is lost, or not worth saving, so why bother? Let it self-destruct, and then pick up the pieces later.
America’s not beyond saving. It can be saved over time, piece by piece. It just requires a little time, unity and compromise to do it. Many people believe that American is already too far-gone. Now they’re finding a way to make it happen without even realizing it.

See more of Jesse Merkel here..... http://www.policymic

[AGStackercaptain of 100]

"libertarians can't win, so they RUIN our Nation!" - What a cowardly and inaccurate statement.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

Purely hypothetical question here:
If you knew that "doing the right thing" would ultimately lead to the destruction of our country as a matter of consequence, would you "do what is right and let the consequence follow", or would you shrink from that in fear of losing your beloved country?
What is more important, devotion to God or partiotism?

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

I think a more accurate title would be:
Our nation is already RUINED, and Libertarians lament the fact the American Experiment was destroyed by two major parties -- Just like Washington warned us it would be in his Farewell Address.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

"libertarians can't win, so they RUIN our Nation!" - What a cowardly and inaccurate statement.

You dare to call me cowardly? It is the Ron Paul group who are cowardly and poor losers. Its time to stop this nonsense.
I am sorry I ever even considered voting for Ron Paul if he would have been the candidate.
Step back and get over yourself would be good advice to a coward! When does a coward ever admit he is wrong? NEVER

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Purely hypothetical question here:
If you knew that "doing the right thing" would ultimately lead to the destruction of our country as a matter of consequence, would you "do what is right and let the consequence follow", or would you shrink from that in fear of losing your beloved country?
What is more important, devotion to God or partiotism?

Men have died to keep this a God fearing nation. Shrinking from that responsibility and accepting the consequence is NOT devotion to God. You obviously cannot make the distinction..

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

It's not over until the convention Juliette please learn how your country works before you make judgements. The candidate is chosen at the convention by DELEGATES. Some delegates are not tied to the primary vote at all. It aint over till its over.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

Purely hypothetical question here:
If you knew that "doing the right thing" would ultimately lead to the destruction of our country as a matter of consequence, would you "do what is right and let the consequence follow", or would you shrink from that in fear of losing your beloved country?
What is more important, devotion to God or partiotism?

Men have died to keep this a God fearing nation. Shrinking from that responsibility and accepting the consequence is NOT devotion to God. You obviously cannot make the distinction..

Men died deffending communism too... doesn't make it right. What were they reffering to in Conference when they warned about having a "false sense of patriotism"?

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

It's not over until the convention Juliette please learn how your country works before you make judgements. The candidate is chosen at the convention by DELEGATES. Some delegates are not tied to the primary vote at all. It aint over till its over.

I am so looking forward to the convention. I will pray for your souls if you let Obama back in office!

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

So is your position that continuity of government is more important that continuity of liberty?

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

You obviously cannot make the distinction..

Let's not try to judge what distinctions others are capable of making... His tone seemed like genuine asking to me, but maybe I am wrong?

Most Libertarian leaning conservatives I know have no intention of ruining our nation. I think most of them want to save it, or at least, they want to save what the Constitution intended it to be.

Would they like to see the welfare part of the nation end? Sure.
Would they like to see the racist and class-ist policies in the nation end? Sure.
Would they like to see the empire-warfare state end? Sure.
Would they like to see the progressive, communist, and socialist agendas end? Sure.
Would they like to see a return of government to the basic principles of government protecting life, liberty, and property enshrined in our founding documents? Sure.
Do they believe it is possible to restore the principles of liberty in America? Sure.
Do they think they will succeed? Some do; some don't. Some expect to try to pick up the pieces after the nation tears itself asunder.
Libertarian conservatives only want to ruin what is evil and wrong in our nation and replace them with our God-given heritage, once again.

“I am a libertarian. I want to be known as a libertarian and as a constitutionalist in the tradition of the early James Madison ~ father of the Constitution. Labels change and perhaps in the old tradition I would be considered one of the original whigs. The new title I would wear today is that of conservative ~ though in its original British connotation the term liberal fits me better than the original meaning of the word, conservative.”(Ezra T. Benson, The Red Carpet p.206)

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

" A false sense of partriotism"??? And who do you suppose the leaders of our church will be voting for? Obama?

The American dream is worth fighting for. Do you give that up because you can't get your way??? Call it the American dream, the American promise or the American way. Whatever term you use, it is imperiled, and worth fighting for.

Ron Paul can't do it. So lets give Romney a chance. Stop degrading him and kicking against the pricks!

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

It's not over until the convention Juliette please learn how your country works before you make judgements. The candidate is chosen at the convention by DELEGATES. Some delegates are not tied to the primary vote at all. It aint over till its over.

I am so looking forward to the convention. I will pray for your souls if you let Obama back in office!

What will Romney do that is any different from what Obama will do if he stays in office?

Any man that has sought power with such dedication, and who is willing to reverse his pretend principles in order to gain popularity, is not going to throw that position away.

He will carry out the instructions of the PTB or he will not be President.

[moonwhimcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Supporters Are Phoning It In for 2012 GOP Nomination, Mitt Romney is the Man


President Obama has officially kicked off his re-election campaign. Despite his low job approval numbers, dropping personal approval, and an economy that requires fuzzy math to get the unemployment rate even close to 8%, some conservatives are already phoning it in.



By Jesse Merkel
Many libertarians seem to be telegraphing that they’ve given up, despite protests to the contrary. While they disagree with President Obama on most issues and would love to see him lose in November, many of them have indicated that they might throw the election for one reason or another.
If an individual believes they’re going to die the next day, they’ll probably find a way to make it happen. Some believe that Obama is unbeatable. Others believe that likely Republican nominee Mitt Romney is a compromise candidate who is not conservative enough for their tastes, so screw him, screw the party, and screw the country.
Their idea is to throw it intentionally this time around and go for it again with someone ‘better’ in 2016. To these people it does not matter what Obama would do in the next four years, unrestricted by having to fight for another election. After he’s out, they can fix everything. Right?
Wrong.
Every four years we hear that the coming election is the most important one ever to come. The electoral equivalent of crying wolf, many may come to believe that there is nothing that cannot be fixed later. Unfortunately for everyone across the country, this time it happens to be true. This time, it really is the most important election of our lifetime.
If Republicans cannot overturn ObamaCare before it is fully implemented, that’s the game. Democrats will have won. There will be no going back. People will not want to give up a new entitlement. All one has to do is to look at the troubles in Greece, Spain and the U.K. to see how people react when someone comes along and tells them that they should spend a little less in order to save their country. They riot.
Conservatives cannot hope for a miracle from the Supreme Court that may not come. And besides, if Obama is re-elected, there is nothing to stop him from trying again. Not having another election to worry about, he could just executive order it back if he wished. As part of his ‘We Can’t Wait’ initiative, Obama has been signing executive orders left and right. There’s no reason not to believe he won’t go on an even bigger spree after the November election.
It’s also possible that Republicans will not win of the Senate in November. Even if they do, it’s highly unlikely that they will have majorities large enough in both houses to overrule Obama.
Conservatives of all stripes cannot afford to take this election lightly. There are several ways that conservatives could easily shoot themselves in the foot.
A floor fight at the convention would be a disaster. There have been four deadlocked conventions since 1960, each of which nominated a loser. (Several top strategists, including former Clinton advisor turned Republican Dick Morris have highlighted this beautifully.) If it goes to a fight on the floor, those that support Ron Paul could attempt to hijack the convention and the nomination. They might even walk out if Romney wins the first round of voting.
That would be a gift for the left. They could easily paint Republicans as unfit to lead. In 2008, the Democrats projected a sense of self-confidence and unity that catapulted them to victory. While the new school doesn’t like to admit it, the conventions matter.
Ron Paul supporters could also sit home, or vote for the Americans Elect or Libertarian candidate. As Ralph Nader proved, it only takes a slim number of votes peeled away to deliver a major state and a victory. Angry Ron Paul fans could easily make this happen. Many would no doubt be happy knowing that they are helping to re-elect Obama in the process.
I believe that deep down many want to see the Republicans take another beating. They’re angry that more conservatives did not rally behind their candidate of choice, and that in the past Republicans made some pretty poor choices in Washington. Now they have the excuse to jam their finger in the face of the whole country, no matter what happens afterwards.
If Republicans, Tea Partiers, Conservatives and Libertarians don’t unite, there’s no going back. Obama in his second term would be a complete nightmare. Millions will be given freebies with ObamaCare that they’ll never want to give up. Amnesty for illegal aliens could be delivered with the stroke of a pen, resulting in a permanent Democrat voting majority for the next century. Then when someone does come around preaching the need for austerity, riots will ensue. America would look like much of Europe does today.
This is not the time to phone it in, yet many libertarians and Ron Paul supporters have done just that. They believe American is lost, or not worth saving, so why bother? Let it self-destruct, and then pick up the pieces later.
America’s not beyond saving. It can be saved over time, piece by piece. It just requires a little time, unity and compromise to do it. Many people believe that American is already too far-gone. Now they’re finding a way to make it happen without even realizing it.

See more of Jesse Merkel here..... http://www.policymic

This is a fear-mongering article to keep us tied into the false left-right paradigm.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

" A false sense of partriotism"??? And who do you suppose the leaders of our church will be voting for? Obama?

The American dream is worth fighting for. Do you give that up because you can't get your way??? Call it the American dream, the American promise or the American way. Whatever term you use, it is imperiled, and worth fighting for.

Ron Paul can't do it. So lets give Romney a chance. Stop degrading him and kicking against the pricks!

Once again, Juliette deftly sidesteps my direct question. Expertly done, you should get paid for this.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

So is your position that continuity of government is more important that continuity of liberty?

Do not attempt to put words into my mouth. I give Romney a fighting chance in november as evidenced by latest polls and I am looking forward to a good laugh when Obama gets canned. I also look forward to the weeping a wailing of how RP was cheated. Excuses, excuses.

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

" Whatever term you use, it is imperiled, and worth fighting for.

Ron Paul can't do it. So lets give Romney a chance. Stop degrading him and kicking against the pricks!

The best way to recruit Paul supporters and Libertarian Conservatives to support your beloved Romney is probably not to degrade them, accuse them of trying to ruin our nation, and degrading their preferred candidate. If you really want to "win" support for Romney, try using some tact, mutual respect, and rational arguments that appeal to a shared vision for America. Some Paul supporters could learn this lesson, as well.

[LukeAir2008captain of 1,000]

When asked about torture Romney didn't say, "Oh my goodness, torture is reprehensible, it won't happen on my watch" No, he said he would consult his lawyers.

And that sums up Mitt Romney.

Yes he's LDS. But then so was Mark Hoffman.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

It's not over until the convention Juliette please learn how your country works before you make judgements. The candidate is chosen at the convention by DELEGATES. Some delegates are not tied to the primary vote at all. It aint over till its over.

I am so looking forward to the convention. I will pray for your souls if you let Obama back in office!

What will Romney do that is any different from what Obama will do if he stays in office?

Any man that has sought power with such dedication, and who is willing to reverse his pretend principles in order to gain popularity, is not going to throw that position away.

He will carry out the instructions of the PTB or he will not be President.

How can you accurately predict what Romney will do in office? The truth is, you can't predict the furture. You can speculate, you can argue every point but YOU DON'T KNOW!
All I'm saying is give him a chance. Its got to be better than what we have. We don't live in a perfect world.
And I can see all the minions are out to argue with me. BRING IT ON! I am sick and tired of all the nonsense you people throw up!

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

When asked about torture Romney didn't say, "Oh my goodness, torture is reprehensible, it won't happen on my watch" No, he said he would consult his lawyers.

And that sums up Mitt Romney.

Yes he's LDS. But then so was Mark Hoffman.

I would like to see any of you stand up under the pressure and stupid questions that are constantly asked of him.
Would you be happy with any answer he gave? I think not....

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

So is your position that continuity of government is more important that continuity of liberty?

Do not attempt to put words into my mouth. I give Romney a fighting chance in november as evidenced by latest polls and I am looking forward to a good laugh when Obama gets canned. I also look forward to the weeping a wailing of how RP was cheated. Excuses, excuses.

I'm not putting words in your mouth,simply asking you to clarify your position do you:
a) choose the right, even if it means the destruction of the country
b) choose the wrong to preserve your country
The answer you gave me seems to suggest that you would choose b). I was giving you an opportunity to refute that, but you won't directly answer my question and instead give an answer to a different question.

[mattctrcaptain of 100]

Again, calling us minions infers that we are the devils? That's a great way to win over people who are LDS and interested in learning what the prophets and scriptures say about us and our day. (Minions, ruin our nation, sick and tired of nonsense and throw up, bring it on, etc. etc. etc.)

Juliette, I don't want to argue with you. People have their reasons to defend and support and stick up for Ron Paul, just like you have your reasons to do so for Romney. I don't question that you want what is best in terms of what you think is best for the nation. I get that. I sympathize with you and your passion.

I just want to point out that name-calling and belittling the people who you claim you want to win over to support Romney will not help you achieve that goal. Either change your method and approach or you risk guaranteeing the very outcome you say you don't want.

Let's tone down the self-righteousness on both sides of the argument and try to reason together.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Again, calling us minions infers that we are the devils? That's a great way to win over people who are LDS and interested in learning what the prophets and scriptures say about us and our day. (Minions, ruin our nation, sick and tired of nonsense and throw up, bring it on, etc. etc. etc.)

Juliette, I don't want to argue with you. People have their reasons to defend and support and stick up for Ron Paul, just like you have your reasons to do so for Romney. I don't question that you want what is best in terms of what you think is best for the nation. I get that. I sympathize with you and your passion.

I just want to point out that name-calling and belittling the people who you claim you want to win over to support Romney will not help you achieve that goal. Either change your method and approach or you risk guaranteeing the very outcome you say you don't want.

Let's tone down the self-righteousness on both sides of the argument and try to reason together.

Matt, you are right. I am angry. I will leave for awhile and come back calmed down. Thanks for the advice!

[uglypitbullcaptain of 1,000]

I will pray for your souls if you let Obama back in office!

You had best concentrate on praying for your own soul. The only people putting Obama back in office are the ones voting FOR him. Those of us who refuse to vote for the lesser of two evils this November have nothing to do with it whatsoever. Presenting someone with a the option to eat a turd, and a turd with two slices of bread, isn't much of an option now is it?

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Who's crying now?

Pray for your own soul, Juliette.

You seem to think we have a responsibility to fall into line and support the nominee. It's been made clear for years by many of us that we don't vote that way and won't vote that way. Now we keep our word and you cry about it.

The GOP could never win without the Ron Paul crowd, the Ron paul crowd said it was Ron Paul or no one, and the GOP establishment still did every crooked, cheating, lying and dihonest thing they could get away with to block Ron Paul. At the end of the day, the GOP establishment prefers another 4 years of establishment Obama to establishment wrecker Paul.

You and bobh had a nice laugh about the Ron Paul "crybabies" during the primaries when your establishment man won the "beauty contests" and then you cried when Ron Paul legitimately racked up DELEGATE wins.

No crying now, Juliette. You made your bed, now sleep in it.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Again, calling us minions infers that we are the devils? That's a great way to win over people who are LDS and interested in learning what the prophets and scriptures say about us and our day. (Minions, ruin our nation, sick and tired of nonsense and throw up, bring it on, etc. etc. etc.)

Juliette, I don't want to argue with you. People have their reasons to defend and support and stick up for Ron Paul, just like you have your reasons to do so for Romney. I don't question that you want what is best in terms of what you think is best for the nation. I get that. I sympathize with you and your passion.

I just want to point out that name-calling and belittling the people who you claim you want to win over to support Romney will not help you achieve that goal. Either change your method and approach or you risk guaranteeing the very outcome you say you don't want.

Let's tone down the self-righteousness on both sides of the argument and try to reason together.

Passion without education is part of what caused this problem. The day will come when Juliette and her kind will have it plainly shown to them their contribution to the problems of this nation, there will be weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Teancumcaptain of 100]

So lets give Romney a chance. Stop degrading him and kicking against the pricks!

Here is Romney's chance in my book, Juliette. Please explain to me (without any name-calling, of course), how you can support anyone (priesthood holder or not) who put out flyers like this for their campaign (if not, I will continue proclaiming the real truth about Romney's political history; truth does NOT kick against the pricks):



Also see related fallout and back-pedaling on Romney's part in this article: "Multiple Choice Mitt Romney disavows 2002 Pride proclamation"
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2012/01/10/romney-disavows-2002-pride-proclamation/

Pleeeeaase just answer this one question, Julliette (or Legion, Davedan, Bob or others), I plead with you. Knowing that Gay Pride events are full of hideous, immoral, and downright evil displays of absolute filth, how can you support anyone who put out flyers like this for their campaign?

This one piece of evidence seems clear proof to me that Romney has sold himself out; a standard politician. Therefore Romney does not deserve "a chance."

I would really appreciate a response from any of our local Romneyites.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

So lets give Romney a chance. Stop degrading him and kicking against the pricks!

Here is Romney's chance in my book, Juliette. Please explain to me (without any name-calling, of course), how you can support anyone (priesthood holder or not) who put out flyers like this for their campaign (if not, I will continue proclaiming the real truth about Romney's political history; truth does NOT kick against the pricks):



Also see related fallout and back-pedaling on Romney's part in this article: "Multiple Choice Mitt Romney disavows 2002 Pride proclamation"
http://www.washingtonblade.com/2012/01/10/romney-disavows-2002-pride-proclamation/

Pleeeeaase just answer this one question, Julliette (or Legion, Davedan, Bob or others), I plead with you. Knowing that Gay Pride events are full of hideous, immoral, and downright evil displays of absolute filth, how can you support anyone who put out flyers like this for their campaign?

This one piece of evidence seems clear proof to me that Romney has sold himself out; a standard politician. Therefore Romney does not deserve "a chance."

I would really appreciate a response from any of our local Romneyites.

[Teancumcaptain of 100]

Sorry if I came across undignified Farm. That was not my intent. I do however consider myself a "Paulite" in this election so I didn't think there was any harm in referring to the other side as "Romenyites".

Still, though I would like to hear from the Romney supporters (hope this suits you better Farm) on this question. They seem to be sidestepping it everytime I bring it up.