We’re surely in it now: Hel/3 Nephi, Revelation, D&C 29, 45,

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Hardly just a "nuisance"! And note that the N. Koreans have the EMP weapon... I think this is worth preparing for! big time.

OK Well, as I said, I'll stand by my training. I'm well prepared for whatever happens! But my disagreement with what you said has to do with high altitude EMPs, something in the neighborhood of 250 miles high? The report I supplied explains why a detonation at such altitudes would not be effective. I didn't say that there would be no EMP blasts, just that they would have to be well within the earths atmosphere to be effective, and 250 miles is well outside the earths atmosphere. I also said that any EMP blast within the earths atmosphere would also kill most people below it from neutron radiation, therefore the loss of electricity would have little effect on them. It's the slower Gamma radiation that causes the EMP effect.

I wasn't arguing that nukes wouldn't be used, I know they will be, my point is EMP detonations will hardly be of any practical value, why not just kill the people, they're going to die anyway!

I'm not sure what training you've had, but what you've written here is not consistent with high-altitude nuclear testing done in the 1960s before the treaty stopped them. In those tests people on the ground were fine, but equipment was damaged and radio signals were interfered with.

For the Compton effect (causing an electrical pulse from a gamma burst) to be effective it must detonate above around 30km, and will be effective to hundreds of miles up... getting a more diffuse effect as it gets higher (around 300 miles for one bomb to cover the USA... though IMO more would be used closer to the ground for greater effect, especially if from a nation that likely has hundreds of such bombs). Nuclear blasts at that altitude, especially those designed for an EMP effect, are safe for humans on the ground.

You referred to a neutron bomb before as one to kill people without doing quite as much damage to infrastructure (though those are still large bombs, but the neutrons released are high enough energy to kill outside of the blast radius, unlike standard nukes), but that is a very different design than a high-gamma bomb. The high-energy neutron effect comes from a fusion reaction (ie fusing tritium or the like) whereas super-EMP bombs are just high-yield fission bombs which produces the gamma burst.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

I'm not sure what training you've had, but what you've written here is not consistent with high-altitude nuclear testing done in the 1960s before the treaty stopped them. In those tests people on the ground were fine, but equipment was damaged and radio signals were interfered with.

For the Compton effect (causing an electrical pulse from a gamma burst) to be effective it must detonate above around 30km, and will be effective to hundreds of miles up... getting a more diffuse effect as it gets higher (around 300 miles for one bomb to cover the USA... though IMO more would be used closer to the ground for greater effect, especially if from a nation that likely has hundreds of such bombs). Nuclear blasts at that altitude, especially those designed for an EMP effect, are safe for humans on the ground.

You referred to a neutron bomb before as one to kill people without doing quite as much damage to infrastructure (though those are still large bombs, but the neutrons released are high enough energy to kill outside of the blast radius, unlike standard nukes), but that is a very different design than a high-gamma bomb. The high-energy neutron effect comes from a fusion reaction (ie fusing tritium or the like) whereas super-EMP bombs are just high-yield fission bombs which produces the gamma burst.

Yes there were high altitude tests in the 1960's, I was around then in the USAF. Those tests were not bombs specifically built for EMP's. Although as the paper I referred Steve to, there are a lot of myths associated with EMPs. I'll stand on that paper and my training with nuclear weapons testing the electronics in the warheads.

Bob

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

I'm not sure what training you've had, but what you've written here is not consistent with high-altitude nuclear testing done in the 1960s before the treaty stopped them. In those tests people on the ground were fine, but equipment was damaged and radio signals were interfered with.

For the Compton effect (causing an electrical pulse from a gamma burst) to be effective it must detonate above around 30km, and will be effective to hundreds of miles up... getting a more diffuse effect as it gets higher (around 300 miles for one bomb to cover the USA... though IMO more would be used closer to the ground for greater effect, especially if from a nation that likely has hundreds of such bombs). Nuclear blasts at that altitude, especially those designed for an EMP effect, are safe for humans on the ground.

You referred to a neutron bomb before as one to kill people without doing quite as much damage to infrastructure (though those are still large bombs, but the neutrons released are high enough energy to kill outside of the blast radius, unlike standard nukes), but that is a very different design than a high-gamma bomb. The high-energy neutron effect comes from a fusion reaction (ie fusing tritium or the like) whereas super-EMP bombs are just high-yield fission bombs which produces the gamma burst.

Yes there were high altitude tests in the 1960's, I was around then in the USAF. Those tests were not bombs specifically built for EMP's. Although as the paper I referred Steve to, there are a lot of myths associated with EMPs. I'll stand on that paper and my training with nuclear weapons testing the electronics in the warheads.

Bob

Which part of that paper? The part about detonations in space not resulting in the Compton effect? If so, it sounded like they were talking about bombs actually in space, much more than 300 miles up. I didn't see anything in that article you posted that contradicts what I wrote.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

The paper referred to detonations outside of the atmosphere, 250 miles up is well outside the atmosphere, but neutron radiation comes from all nuke detonations. Any detonation 250 miles up will cause little damage (if any) on the ground. As you yourself said 30 kilometers (about 20 miles) is the desired height, that height is well below 250 miles, but there is still a remnant of atmosphere. However, 20 miles is well within the devastating effects of neutron radiation.

As I have explained before, I live in a cabin with a metal roof, a modified A frame, I have all my electronic equipment stored under the metal roof. I'm in the process of installing a better grounding cable from the roof to the ground. My cabin is set up with emergency lighting, and plenty of food, water and other essential items.

I expect a cleansing, how it starts and is completed is of little concern to me. It's going to happen! I'm seventy years old, I have begun to be old. I'm happy to leave the mortal future to you young bucks (and lovely does ).

My bigget concern is about earthquakes, am wondering, is the cabin I built to be earthquake proof actually---earthquake proof???

Bob

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

The paper referred to detonations outside of the atmosphere, 250 miles up is well outside the atmosphere, but neutron radiation comes from all nuke detonations. Any detonation 250 miles up will cause little damage (if any) on the ground. As you yourself said 30 kilometers (about 20 miles) is the desired height, that height is well below 250 miles, but there is still a remnant of atmosphere. However, 20 miles is well within the devastating effects of neutron radiation.

As I have explained before, I live in a cabin with a metal roof, a modified A frame, I have all my electronic equipment stored under the metal roof. I'm in the process of installing a better grounding cable from the roof to the ground. My cabin is set up with emergency lighting, and plenty of food, water and other essential items.

I expect a cleansing, how it starts and is completed is of little concern to me. It's going to happen! I'm seventy years old, I have begun to be old. I'm happy to leave the mortal future to you young bucks (and lovely does ).

My bigget concern is about earthquakes, am wondering, is the cabin I built to be earthquake proof actually---earthquake proof???

Bob

LOL....only one way to truly find out!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

My exceptions include NYC. NYC will be destroyed by an earthquake, not a bomb. Yes, the cleansing will begin with the Church, (Probably a desolating sickness) it'll also be the first to recover in one year or, perhaps a bit less, while the rest of the country suffers mightily. But I fear neither! Whatever happens, happens! I'm as prepared as I can be. If it's my time and I'm taken, I'll be happier then I am now-----Someone else will have a lot of food to eat--- Other then that, great comments!

Bob

I used to feel exactly the same about the cleansing being a desolating sickness, plague, etc. I have a feeling now that the cleansing and the sifting of the wheat from the tares will be either the same event or will be happening at the same time.

I think there will be some major event that will cause a huge divide in society as a whole and also within the church. People are going to be very divided into two camps, and there will be no middle ground, no fence sitters. I believe this will result in a purge within the church, with many leaving and being very angry with the church and will lead to much persecution and violence - between church members and former church members! I believe that this division will continue to grow nationwide and many good non-LDS fleeing to ZION and many other non-LDS and/or "tares" leaving the Utah area.

Then I think things will become relatively calm in the "cleansed" mountain west area, but the dissension and violence will escalate elsewhere. I do believe that something will eventually happen that will strike down anyone that attends the temple unworthily.

Just my opinion of one possible way things *MAY* unfold.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

The paper referred to detonations outside of the atmosphere, 250 miles up is well outside the atmosphere, but neutron radiation comes from all nuke detonations. Any detonation 250 miles up will cause little damage (if any) on the ground. As you yourself said 30 kilometers (about 20 miles) is the desired height, that height is well below 250 miles, but there is still a remnant of atmosphere. However, 20 miles is well within the devastating effects of neutron radiation.

Bombs meant for EMP produce a gamma burst and would not be designed for high energy neutron release... they are very different sorts of bombs. The fission process which produces more gamma radiation would produce much lower energy neutrons, which would not maintain enough energy to get outside the blast radius in air... and certainly not enough to reach the ground when detonated even 20 miles above the earth.

Gamma radiation also travels much more easily through air and other matter than neutrons, which is why neutron bombs have to use a special fusion reaction (as opposed to fission) in order to produce the very high energy neutrons.

As I have explained before, I live in a cabin with a metal roof, a modified A frame, I have all my electronic equipment stored under the metal roof. I'm in the process of installing a better grounding cable from the roof to the ground. My cabin is set up with emergency lighting, and plenty of food, water and other essential items.

I expect a cleansing, how it starts and is completed is of little concern to me. It's going to happen! I'm seventy years old, I have begun to be old. I'm happy to leave the mortal future to you young bucks (and lovely does ).

My bigget concern is about earthquakes, am wondering, is the cabin I built to be earthquake proof actually---earthquake proof???

Bob

This is a good point... and a trick with EMP protection too. How can you be sure that your EMP protection efforts are adequate? Is the metal thick enough? Especially if thin or a wire mesh, is it tuned to the correct frequencies for whatever the pulse rise time ends up being? What if the pulse comes from lower on the horizon?

I know some here don't think an EMP would be very effective for cleansing, but it actually seems to be nearly ideal... and would result in the disease some thing is better for cleansing and preserving the righteous. An EMP will likely favor those with food storage and other things prepared as directed by prophets.

It would favor those who would gather peacefully and work together over those who would selfishly fight to survive. It would result in the wicked destroying the wicked as they choose the lower path to attempt to survive.

All in all, an EMP seems like a pretty merciful way to go about cleansing a nation, and a way that would encourage those who gather and cooperate to survive so those who like would be closer together, would have to work hard, and would be more humble.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My roof is thick enough! But more importantly, I'm prepared and I'm not afraid, especially of myths!

Bob

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Thanks jonesde for your patient explanations.

Bob -- I hope you understand that a super-EMP bomb
1. is designed to generate copious GAMMA-rays
2. these gammas do not kill people directly, rather they produce secondary electron production in the upper atmosphere
3. these secondary HIGH_ENERGY electrons spiral in the earth's magnetic field, to produce the broad range of electromagnetic radiation (from radio waves up to microwaves etc) -- this is the ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSE spoken of (EMP).
4. It is the resultant EMP that fries electronics and the grid on the earth below. ONE large EMP-generating bomb detonated at high -altitude can fry most of the US 48 states. Two such, would do it. Unfortunately.

These are not myths.

I know some here don't think an EMP would be very effective for cleansing, but it actually seems to be nearly ideal... and would result in the disease some thing is better for cleansing and preserving the righteous. An EMP will likely favor those with food storage and other things prepared as directed by prophets.

It would favor those who would gather peacefully and work together over those who would selfishly fight to survive. It would result in the wicked destroying the wicked as they choose the lower path to attempt to survive.

All in all, an EMP seems like a pretty merciful way to go about cleansing a nation, and a way that would encourage those who gather and cooperate to survive so those who like would be closer together, would have to work hard, and would be more humble.

You raise some excellent points here.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Ok, Ok, good grief, I surrender!!!, EMPs are the least of my concerns, you know why? I'm prepared! I have absolutely no concerns over anything or any event I have no control over! Being prepared is something "I" have control over, I'm prepared!

Whatever happens, whenever it happens, even dying, I'm prepared, prepared, prepar----

Bob

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I've enjoyed the conversation - Bob has a good point, we should prepare for events according to how likely we are to encounter that event.

Death is something we each have a high probability of facing...Doing your best to be ready for that - at any time - is probably of the highest priority.

If you are ready for that, everything else becomes a distant second - certainly we should endeavor with wisdom to be prepared for as much as we can...again if we have the top priority taken care of, then we are going to be living so close to the spirit and following the prophet that we will be ready for anything that the Lord wants us to be ready for!

(NOT that I want to kill the EMP discussion, or any other "prepper" discussion - this material is valuable and interesting!

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Thanks jonesde for your patient explanations.

Bob -- I hope you understand that a super-EMP bomb
1. is designed to generate copious GAMMA-rays
2. these gammas do not kill people directly, rather they produce secondary electron production in the upper atmosphere
3. these secondary HIGH_ENERGY electrons spiral in the earth's magnetic field, to produce the broad range of electromagnetic radiation (from radio waves up to microwaves etc) -- this is the ELECTROMAGNETIC PULSE spoken of (EMP).
4. It is the resultant EMP that fries electronics and the grid on the earth below. ONE large EMP-generating bomb detonated at high -altitude can fry most of the US 48 states. Two such, would do it. Unfortunately.

These are not myths.

I know some here don't think an EMP would be very effective for cleansing, but it actually seems to be nearly ideal... and would result in the disease some thing is better for cleansing and preserving the righteous. An EMP will likely favor those with food storage and other things prepared as directed by prophets.

It would favor those who would gather peacefully and work together over those who would selfishly fight to survive. It would result in the wicked destroying the wicked as they choose the lower path to attempt to survive.

All in all, an EMP seems like a pretty merciful way to go about cleansing a nation, and a way that would encourage those who gather and cooperate to survive so those who like would be closer together, would have to work hard, and would be more humble.

You raise some excellent points here.

Except the wicked always combine against the righteous....MS13 against your fat bottomed ward family? Perhaps...

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Except the wicked always combine against the righteous....MS13 against your fat bottomed ward family? Perhaps...

Yes, this is one of many reasons why those who work together and cooperate for survival will be favored by the circumstance.

With an EMP, or other major disaster, hunger and illness will increase desperation and violent gangs will surely grow quickly, and communities (smaller towns, and areas within larger cities) will have to prepare for that.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Except the wicked always combine against the righteous....MS13 against your fat bottomed ward family? Perhaps...

Yes, this is one of many reasons why those who work together and cooperate for survival will be favored by the circumstance.

With an EMP, or other major disaster, hunger and illness will increase desperation and violent gangs will surely grow quickly, and communities (smaller towns, and areas within larger cities) will have to prepare for that.

Violent gangs already exist. Most now have military training incorporated. A little food storage and a rifle or two aren't going to protect people against a 95% reduction in population event. Just isn't going to happen.

Plague...a whole different ballgame because now no one wants to be around each other. Combinations fractured and destroyed.

Vast difference in impacts. Who knows which way it will come down....but I certainly see more scriptural evidence for the plague....and it makes more sense in preserving the righteous. Zion is going to be no small effort.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Plagues, that's where it's at, EMPs be damned! Gangs?? Few here, they're going to have as much trouble getting gas as I'am, I suspect the people of Texas will take care of MS 13, once all the gang protections are removed---

I counted all my rounds last night, a lot of gang members won't make it out of Genola-----I'll never leave Genola----

Bob

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Plagues, that's where it's at, EMPs be damned! Gangs?? Few here, they're going to have as much trouble getting gas as I'am, I suspect the people of Texas will take care of MS 13, once all the gang protections are removed---

I counted all my rounds last night, a lot of gang members won't make it out of Genola-----I'll never leave Genola----

Bob

I have hope and faith that we'll be taken care of if we are doing as we have covenanted and striving to build the kingdom....no matter what comes our way.

For verily I say unto you, my law shall be kept on this land.

Let no man think he is ruler; but let God rule him that judgeth, according to the counsel of his own will, or, in other words, him that counseleth or sitteth upon the judgment seat.

Let no man break the laws of the land, for he that keepeth the laws of God hath no need to break the laws of the land.

Wherefore, be subject to the powers that be, until he reigns whose right it is to reign, and subdues all enemies under his feet.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/dc-testam ... ang=eng#21

But behold, this land, said God, shall be a land of thine inheritance, and the Gentiles shall be blessed upon the land.
And this land shall be a land of liberty unto the Gentiles, and there shall be no kings upon the land, who shall raise up unto the Gentiles.
And I will fortify this land against all other nations.
And he that fighteth against Zion shall perish, saith God.
For he that raiseth up a king against me shall perish, for I, the Lord, the king of heaven, will be their king, and I will be a light unto them forever, that hear my words.
Wherefore, for this cause, that my covenants may be fulfilled which I have made unto the children of men, that I will do unto them while they are in the flesh, I must needs destroy the secret works of darkness, and of murders, and of abominations.
Wherefore, he that fighteth against Zion, both Jew and Gentile, both bond and free, both male and female, shall perish; for they are they who are the whore of all the earth; for they who are not for me are against me, saith our God.

http://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-ne/10.10?lang=eng[/quote]

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Except the wicked always combine against the righteous....MS13 against your fat bottomed ward family? Perhaps...

Yes, this is one of many reasons why those who work together and cooperate for survival will be favored by the circumstance.

With an EMP, or other major disaster, hunger and illness will increase desperation and violent gangs will surely grow quickly, and communities (smaller towns, and areas within larger cities) will have to prepare for that.

Violent gangs already exist. Most now have military training incorporated. A little food storage and a rifle or two aren't going to protect people against a 95% reduction in population event. Just isn't going to happen.

Plague...a whole different ballgame because now no one wants to be around each other. Combinations fractured and destroyed.

Vast difference in impacts. Who knows which way it will come down....but I certainly see more scriptural evidence for the plague....and it makes more sense in preserving the righteous. Zion is going to be no small effort.

No plague in history has hit 100% of the population. The Spanish Flu in 1918 only infected about 1/3 of the population, and estimates are it killed about one in five to one in ten of those infected. The worst was the plagues, sometimes killing up to 50% of the population in a single strike, but those plagues tended to more localized and are now known to have been exacerbated by hygiene problems... not as likely unless something else knocks out infrastructure and people don't figure out alternatives.

Bad plagues probably won't keep everyone inside... if it is a choice between starving and going out looking for food, what do you think people will choose? Even for a mega-flu the 2/3 that are still healthy will need to eat, and some will become more desperate trying to find resources for themselves and their loved ones who are sick. There will be a lot of worry, even if only one in 15 or one in 30 actually ends up dying.

The main thing likely with modern plagues is that people won't show up for work, and if it is severe enough the existing violent gangs would probably "aprovechar" (as the MS13 guys would put it: "hay que aprovechar")... especially if shops are left unattended and police, fire, and other services are compromised.

All of this is of course supposition, but I don't think a bad plague will be much more peaceful than an EMP. Either way supply chains will break down, people will get hungry, power/water/sewer/communications infrastructure will have complete or random outages.

Still, in decent communities chances are people will improvise and make up for a lack of police or insufficient police (or military) to defend the community. This will be needed whatever the cause of a breakdown.

On the other hand, if a plague was the major disaster used for cleansing, and Mormons in Utah had the highest survival rate... it truly would be a miracle!

And true, building Zion will require a lot of work... but that was true for the Isreailites and how many made it after the cleansing coming out of Egypt? How many of those were so in love with the lifestyle they had there and the culture and wickedness of the Egyptians that they would not be allowed to be part of the new society?

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Ok, how about a famine before the plague??

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Except the wicked always combine against the righteous....MS13 against your fat bottomed ward family? Perhaps...

Yes, this is one of many reasons why those who work together and cooperate for survival will be favored by the circumstance.

With an EMP, or other major disaster, hunger and illness will increase desperation and violent gangs will surely grow quickly, and communities (smaller towns, and areas within larger cities) will have to prepare for that.

Violent gangs already exist. Most now have military training incorporated. A little food storage and a rifle or two aren't going to protect people against a 95% reduction in population event. Just isn't going to happen.

Plague...a whole different ballgame because now no one wants to be around each other. Combinations fractured and destroyed.

Vast difference in impacts. Who knows which way it will come down....but I certainly see more scriptural evidence for the plague....and it makes more sense in preserving the righteous. Zion is going to be no small effort.

No plague in history has hit 100% of the population. The Spanish Flu in 1918 only infected about 1/3 of the population, and estimates are it killed about one in five to one in ten of those infected. The worst was the plagues, sometimes killing up to 50% of the population in a single strike, but those plagues tended to more localized and are now known to have been exacerbated by hygiene problems... not as likely unless something else knocks out infrastructure and people don't figure out alternatives.

Bad plagues probably won't keep everyone inside... if it is a choice between starving and going out looking for food, what do you think people will choose? Even for a mega-flu the 2/3 that are still healthy will need to eat, and some will become more desperate trying to find resources for themselves and their loved ones who are sick. There will be a lot of worry, even if only one in 15 or one in 30 actually ends up dying.

The main thing likely with modern plagues is that people won't show up for work, and if it is severe enough the existing violent gangs would probably "aprovechar" (as the MS13 guys would put it: "hay que aprovechar")... especially if shops are left unattended and police, fire, and other services are compromised.

All of this is of course supposition, but I don't think a bad plague will be much more peaceful than an EMP. Either way supply chains will break down, people will get hungry, power/water/sewer/communications infrastructure will have complete or random outages.

Still, in decent communities chances are people will improvise and make up for a lack of police or insufficient police (or military) to defend the community. This will be needed whatever the cause of a breakdown.

On the other hand, if a plague was the major disaster used for cleansing, and Mormons in Utah had the highest survival rate... it truly would be a miracle!

And true, building Zion will require a lot of work... but that was true for the Isreailites and how many made it after the cleansing coming out of Egypt? How many of those were so in love with the lifestyle they had there and the culture and wickedness of the Egyptians that they would not be allowed to be part of the new society?

Are you aiming for 100% of the population?

Read the scriptures on the plague? Prophesies (actual recorded ones and not a 30 year old retelling of something the man heard as a boy)? John Taylor or Patriarch Charles D. Evans? Cleon Skousen's compilation of scripture and references in "The Cleansing of America"? Purple spots? Tongues rotting out and cursing God just before they die? Bodies piled high?

Quarantine. Martial law. Everyone boarded up in their homes living on food storage.

Sure people starve and go looking for food. But they'll likely avoid contact with others if possible to prevent getting sick if they aren't there already. And if they are there already they'll likely not be wandering far in search of food (may not even care about food since their tongues are rotting apart).

Sure the supply chain breaks down. But its rebuild-able. You haven't sent society back 50-70 years technologically. You don't have a glow-in-the-dark Zion.

But yeah its all conjecture....

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

And riots before the famine!

And an important political figure being assassinated before the riots?

Don't see nutin about any EMPs------hmmm--

Helaman 6 through 3 Nephi 8

Bobby

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Are you aiming for 100% of the population?

Read the scriptures on the plague? Prophesies (actual recorded ones and not a 30 year old retelling of something the man heard as a boy)? John Taylor or Patriarch Charles D. Evans? Cleon Skousen's compilation of scripture and references in "The Cleansing of America"? Purple spots? Tongues rotting out and cursing God just before they die? Bodies piled high?

Quarantine. Martial law. Everyone boarded up in their homes living on food storage.

Sure people starve and go looking for food. But they'll likely avoid contact with others if possible to prevent getting sick if they aren't there already. And if they are there already they'll likely not be wandering far in search of food (may not even care about food since their tongues are rotting apart).

Sure the supply chain breaks down. But its rebuild-able. You haven't sent society back 50-70 years technologically. You don't have a glow-in-the-dark Zion.

But yeah its all conjecture....

I don't disagree that plague is likely, it certainly is... but it isn't necessarily the only thing or even a root cause on it's own, ie it could be the result of another catastrophe.

The part I don't think is reasonable is the belief that everyone would be "boarded up their homes living on food storage". People will still need to eat and will need medical supplies and such, and peace and calm are not likely to be the state of things in streets or in homes, especially not among those who are already wicked and used to getting the things they need by violence.

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

The part I don't think is reasonable is the belief that everyone would be "boarded up their homes living on food storage". People will still need to eat and will need medical supplies and such, and peace and calm are not likely to be the state of things in streets or in homes, especially not among those who are already wicked and used to getting the things they need by violence.

Researchers are finding out that in some of the worst plagues in history, it is the people that tended the sick and dying who had the best survival rates. Personally I believe that quarantines only serve in keeping people sick and delaying the inevitable spread of a disease. I was recently reading a story written by a white woman who was staying with the Navajo people to learn their weaving techniques. She said when there was sickness in the tribe that the whole tribe would get together and sing. I think this is a better aproach to sickness.
Sorry for the off topic comment but it seems like a good place toput my thoughts on how we should deal with a plague.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Not going to argue if EMP is likely, but to just address the main recent question which if I recall was something like how big a nuclear explosion is needed to create an EMP?

From My BYU Poli Sci class (1989) text book dealing with nuclear weapons systems, it had a map showing that a 1 Megaton warhead, airburst 100 miles over Kansas City, MO, would create the EMP devastation to cover the entire 48 states (except the very tip of the Olympic Pen. Washington State).

From a second source (2006 - which I don't have atm): four 20 kiloton warheads (basic MX payload throw-weight - for comparison Hiroshima's Little Boy bomb was about 13-18 KT, Nagasaki's Fat Man bomb was 21 KT), each exploded 50 miles above: Boise, ID, Four Corners area of Rocky Mountain states, Detroit, MI, and Nashville, TN would together create an EMP coverage destroying all electrical from about Calgary, Alberta nearly down to Mexico City.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

...

Don't see nutin about any EMPs------hmmm--

Helaman 6 through 3 Nephi 8

Bobby

You need to read a bit further perhaps. Here is the Prophetic warning from the Savior:

3 Nephi 21
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

... so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. ...

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

...

Don't see nutin about any EMPs------hmmm--

Helaman 6 through 3 Nephi 8

Bobby

You need to read a bit further perhaps. Here is the Prophetic warning from the Savior:

3 Nephi 21
14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;

15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;

... so will I destroy thy cities.

19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.

20 For it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that at that day whosoever will not repent and come unto my Beloved Son, them will I cut off from among my people, O house of Israel;

21 And I will execute vengeance and fury upon them, even as upon the heathen, such as they have not heard. ...

23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.

except they repent

If they don't repent then the Lamanites down south will also be as young lions among the sheep. Of course if you believe Ken Bowers -

Dr. Skousen asked President Hinckley, "What will make the gentiles repent?" And President Hinckley replied, "A plague."
The story behind the story of Dr. Skousen is very interesting and I hope will be of some benefit to others. It goes like this:

Dr. Skousen is an avid reader of the Book of Mormon. He read in 3 Nephi chapter 16 and 21 wherein the Savior says that if the Gentiles of the last days don't repent of their sins, among them being the sin of upholding secret combinations, then the remnant of the land, consisting of the lamanites, will go through the Gentiles as a lion among the beasts of the forest and they will destroy the Gentiles. But if they repent, that won't happen.

Well, Dr. Skousen composed a talk about the subject and began telling that talk about how the Lamanites and their cousins, the Mexicans, would come among the Gentiles and destroy them in the last days. And of course, with the talk among Mexican-Americans going around that they say they are going to reclaim southwest America, and call it "Aztlan," there seems to be a lot of evidence that that could happen.

Dr. Skousen told me that one day he heard that a General Authority had heard his talk and began using that talk himself. Who he was, Dr. Skousen never said. But this GA gave that talk a lot for awhile. Then, according to Dr. Skousen, President Hinckley told the GA not to give that talk anymore because that's not the scenario that will play out. President Hinckley told Dr. Skousen that he should go back and read the part in 3 Nephi 21:22 which says, "But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts...." then, to summarize, the scenario about the remnant of Jacob going through and destroying them won't happen.

So Dr. Skousen asked President Hinckley, "What will make the gentiles repent?" And President Hinckley replied, "A plague." He was told to go home and read about the plague in Section 29 of the D&C, verses 18 and 19. Then he said, read D&C 112:24-26 about how the plague shall start. Dr. Skousen firmly believed that A would never be invaded from without. However, many people seem to believe that it will have an invasion of Chinese and Russians. Only the future will tell. But this is the story Dr. Skousen told me. (Gumbo)

D&C 29
18 Wherefore, I the Lord God will send forth flies upon the face of the earth, which shall take hold of the inhabitants thereof, and shall eat their flesh, and shall cause maggots to come in upon them;
19 And their tongues shall be stayed that they shall not utter against me; and their flesh shall fall from off their bones, and their eyes from their sockets;

D&C 112
24 Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25 And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26 First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20648&p=250648#p248635
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20648&p=250648#p249584
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20648&p=250648#p249763

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Those are the scriptures I base my belief on. Thanks Jason! The chariots can be stopped because there is no gas. Even the great Joel Skousen says a EMP will only effect 100 miles below the explosion. And that is also my training. The EMP myths spread high and wide!

But most important, the scriptures Jason quotes above explain very carefully that it is our Lord who will clean up America. I know it to be so! Which is why I spend little time worrying about EMPs, gadiantions, organized crime, globalists, or any other mortal misfit group, God will get them!

My desire and my prayer is for him to get started with the cleansing. As far as I'm concerned, here or on the other side of the veil, it makes no difference to me, it's His choice. Their going to need help collecting all those millions of lost souls who are Children of the Most High on that side of the veil. Jo and I could do a bang up job over there. Here all I can do is be prepared and preach preparedness and repentance, but my preaching seems to fall on deaf ears-----

Bob

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Bob:

Even the great Joel Skousen says a EMP will only effect 100 miles below the explosion.

Hmmm... I don't think so, and I request a reference to where Joel makes such a statement. Perhaps you misunderstood him, and if you go back to what he REALLY said, you can get this straightened out.

Also, if I read D&C 45 properly, it is clear that there will be the New Jerusalem (full of those who have repented) and general mayhem outside that city in Missouri. I accept SCRIPTURE over UNSUBSTANTIATED HEARSAY (regarding Dr. Skousen, in particular).

63 Ye hear of wars in foreign lands; but, behold, I say unto you, they are nigh, even at your doors, and not many years hence ye shall hear of wars in your own lands.

64 Wherefore I, the Lord, have said, gather ye out from the eastern lands, assemble ye yourselves together ye elders of my church; go ye forth into the western countries, call upon the inhabitants to repent, and inasmuch as they do repent, build up churches unto me.

65 And with one heart and with one mind, gather up your riches that ye may purchase an inheritance which shall hereafter be appointed unto you.

66 And it shall be called the New Jerusalem, a land of peace, a city of refuge, a place of safety for the saints of the Most High God;

67 And the glory of the Lord shall be there, and the terror of the Lord also shall be there, insomuch that the wicked will not come unto it, and it shall be called Zion.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.

69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.

70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.

71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Steve, try the 1:26 minute mark on this talk by Joel Skousen, he gets to the emp remarks about the 1:27 mark that relate to my training and understandings about EMPs.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22445

Bob

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Bob:

Even the great Joel Skousen says a EMP will only effect 100 miles below the explosion. And that is also my training.

Steve, try the 1:26 minute mark on this talk by Joel Skousen, he gets to the emp remarks about the 1:27 mark that relate to my training and understandings about EMPs.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22445

Bob

So, I went to the 1hr 26 minute mark in this interview, and Joel says that the "latest data" indicate that SIX high-altitude EMP bombs would knock out the electrical grid in the US totally -- he says, "total blackout". It is true that he says that vehicles on the ground might survive, except in a "100-mile" area beneath each bomb. This 100-mile radius would certainly depend on the strength of the EMP bombs used.

Joel indicates also the likelihood of such an EMP attack on the US, although not (he thinks) in the very near future.

But here's the important point -- Joel Skousen reiterates the stand that the "total blackout" of the entire US grid can be achieved with just six EMP bombs, and then goes on to describe the utter social chaos (and deaths) that this would certainly cause -- do you agree with this?

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Bob:

Even the great Joel Skousen says a EMP will only effect 100 miles below the explosion. And that is also my training.

Steve, try the 1:26 minute mark on this talk by Joel Skousen, he gets to the emp remarks about the 1:27 mark that relate to my training and understandings about EMPs.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=22445

Bob

So, I went to the 1hr 26 minute mark in this interview, and Joel says that the "latest data" indicate that SIX high-altitude EMP bombs would knock out the electrical grid in the US totally -- he says, "total blackout". It is true that he says that vehicles on the ground might survive, except in a "100-mile" area beneath each bomb. This 100-mile radius would certainly depend on the strength of the EMP bombs used.

Joel indicates also the likelihood of such an EMP attack on the US, although not (he thinks) in the very near future.

But here's the important point -- Joel Skousen reiterates the stand that the "total blackout" of the entire US grid can be achieved with just six EMP bombs, and then goes on to describe the utter social chaos (and deaths) that this would certainly cause -- do you agree with this?

I listened to this too, and I wish he had cited his source for this information. It sounds like the study done based on 10 kiloton fission bombs, which certainly generate an EMP but that is exactly the weaker sort of EMP that wouldn't damage disconnected small electronics. Unfortunately, a 10 kiloton fission is VERY different from a 400 kiloton fission bomb or an EMP-tuned fission bomb, and those could do MUCH more damage and generate a much stronger electrical pulse.

If Joel was basing his comments on the "study" I think he is (the conclusions in that study are basically what he described), then there are some politics behind it. It all started with the EMP Commission (http://www.empcommission.org) which published a report on impact of infrastructure and has been pushing for congressional action to fund equipment to protect the electrical grid. I don't agree with that sort of political solution, but they do have some good information on EMP and even have a radio show also available as a podcast (see http://www.empactamerica.org/index.php).

In response another political group did another study saying that the only potential threat they believe is credible is a 1-10 kiloton small nuclear device, because that is all that "terrorists" and less advanced nations like Iran or North Korea could do without help. This is based on a denial that Russia and China are threats, so I'm surprised that Joel Skousen would base things on that since he does believe that Russia and China are major threats. Perhaps he just hasn't seen the other studies and the scientific work done.

Here is an article that sums up this limited threat perspective, and that even some on the EMP Commission seem to be standing behind because it still supports their regulatory cause, even if it only includes the less significant threat. The EMP Commission has a political objective to send money to power and electrical infrastructure companies, but they don't seem to care about any political objective to protect small electronics (not yet... and perhaps because there are few affordable/reasonable technical solutions to protect small electronics from a strong EMP when they are in use, especially those with any radio antenna which includes most computers and even non-phone handhelds (with WiFi, Bluetooth, etc antennas).

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1553/1

Anyway, to sum it up... don't believe that the only threat is a small nuclear device of 1-10 kiloton! There are much larger simple fission devices out there, and EMP-tuned weapons that generate a large effect with a relatively smaller explosive yield. Those threats are real, even if there are deniers that it is likely.

The first part of the article above has a little bit of info about EMP from higher-yield fission bombs. It mentions bombs greater than 100 kiloton (fission only, ie no fusion/tritium component), and I know the USA has fission bombs of at least 400 kiloton, and higher yields might be possible (usually 1 megaton and over have a tritium/fusion component to the bomb, but the fusion reaction does not generate the big gamma burst which causes EMP, so it's the fission bomb yields that are important).

http://www.thespacereview.com/article/1549/1

There is research out there about this stuff, but it's also a politically charged issue and there is a lot of misinformation about.