Church's new City Creek Mall Plaza Complex commercial on TV

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Nobody faults you for having concerns Col Flagg. My problem is that instead of taking your concerns to the Lord privately, you instead choose to lambaste the presiding councils of the church on a public internet forum. It's not healthy and its not right no matter how you slice it.

Go to the Lord for understanding and stop giving more fodder to apostates and anti-mormons.

I was pondering this last night and patriotsaint expressed exactly what I wanted to say this morning. And Nephi expressed something very similar to his older brothers, "Have ye inquired of the Lord?"

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Nobody faults you for having concerns Col Flagg. My problem is that instead of taking your concerns to the Lord privately, you instead choose to lambaste the presiding councils of the church on a public internet forum. It's not healthy and its not right no matter how you slice it.

Go to the Lord for understanding and stop giving more fodder to apostates and anti-mormons.

Thank you patriotsaint. That sentiment is exactly what I have been trying to convey to the Col. and others here. If I had a problem with a decision that my Bishop or Stake President made for my ward would I first stand up in testimony meeting and begin to run them into the ground throwing out insulting and derogatory comments about their fitness and spiritual abilities to function in their offices? Of course not. That would be disrespectful and totally inappropriate.

Yet what the Col. and others here continue to do with the presiding councils of the church is equally disrespectful and inappropriate on a public forum such as this one. I have read enough anti-mormon material to know that this kind of discord and cynicism displayed here about decisions made by the Brethren would be just what the doctor ordered in working up doubt and disunity in those who may be weak in the faith. I highly suspect that some here have just that goal in mind.

Instead of fasting and praying for answers to these types of concerns and then going privately to ones ecclesiastical leadership in a spirit of humility and understanding some here are content to just publicly lambast our dear prophets and church leaders in such a deriding and cynical way. That to me is disgusting and shows such a lack of class.

Thats my opinion of course based on all the innuendo I have read on this forum about many of the things the Brethren have decided to do in their stewardships. The lack of faith with many here is staggering for an active latter day saint to display. Zion will never be built up in such a manner.

[Squallycaptain of 1,000]

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[natashacaptain of 1,000]

Nobody faults you for having concerns Col Flagg. My problem is that instead of taking your concerns to the Lord privately, you instead choose to lambaste the presiding councils of the church on a public internet forum. It's not healthy and its not right no matter how you slice it.

Go to the Lord for understanding and stop giving more fodder to apostates and anti-mormons.

Thank you patriotsaint. That sentiment is exactly what I have been trying to convey to the Col. and others here. If I had a problem with a decision that my Bishop or Stake President made for my ward would I first stand up in testimony meeting and begin to run them into the ground throwing out insulting and derogatory comments about their fitness and spiritual abilities to function in their offices? Of course not. That would be disrespectful and totally inappropriate.

Yet what the Col. and others here continue to do with the presiding councils of the church is equally disrespectful and inappropriate on a public forum such as this one. I have read enough anti-mormon material to know that this kind of discord and cynicism displayed here about decisions made by the Brethren would be just what the doctor ordered in working up doubt and disunity in those who may be weak in the faith. I highly suspect that some here have just that goal in mind.

Instead of fasting and praying for answers to these types of concerns and then going privately to ones ecclesiastical leadership in a spirit of humility and understanding some here are content to just publicly lambast our dear prophets and church leaders in such a deriding and cynical way. That to me is disgusting and shows such a lack of class.

Thats my opinion of course based on all the innuendo I have read on this forum about many of the things the Brethren have decided to do in their stewardships. The lack of faith with many here is staggering for an active latter day saint to display. Zion will never be built up in such a manner.

And for what it's worth from me, I agree whole heartedly with the above. No one here has ever said you can't have questions in mind. Where the responsibility regarding those questions comes is in how you handle them. I do not believe, for one minute, that an internet forum is the place for this kind of discussion. I have said on a couple of other occasions that I had an experience with a non-member coming to this site and after reading some of the more controversial topics, was completely turned off. We DO have a responsibility regarding what we say....and even more importantly what we WRITE. There is a perfect order in the structure of the Church and whenever we feel we have some kind of disagreement, we should take it through proper channels along with sincere prayer. Some of the things that have been written here on the forum indicate to me that those doing so seem to lack in understanding of what our responsibilities are regarding such....and also indicate a lack of understanding regarding stewardship. Tithing funds were NOT used on the City Creek Mall...period. Somewhere in this thread that was explained very well. Concern for downtown Salt Lake where Church Headquarters are located as well as sacred temple grounds, family history center, etc., should always be a priority. I would dare say, even though I have not researched it, that many of us do not understand all the legal "stuff" that goes in to this kind of development; i.e, what the Church owns literally; what the franchise people own; etc. This is a much more complicated world than when the Church was new and young. I trust completely the brethren and when I raise my hand to sustain them this coming week-end it will be recorded in Heaven.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Wow Natasha! Very well said. I believe this should be the end of this discussion. ( like I have any say, haha)

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

And for what it's worth from me, I agree whole heartedly with the above. No one here has ever said you can't have questions in mind. Where the responsibility regarding those questions comes is in how you handle them. I do not believe, for one minute, that an internet forum is the place for this kind of discussion. I have said on a couple of other occasions that I had an experience with a non-member coming to this site and after reading some of the more controversial topics, was completely turned off. We DO have a responsibility regarding what we say....and even more importantly what we WRITE.

I will acknowledge this is a weakness I have - maybe I should keep my comments confined to the private message arena for others whose opinions I'd like to get? Good counsel here Nat, in fact, I think I'll do that from now on since all I seem to get is a scolding from most over it.

There is a perfect order in the structure of the Church and whenever we feel we have some kind of disagreement, we should take it through proper channels along with sincere prayer.

I've already taken the matter to the Lord... twice... and still feel the same way about it. How about you? How about Mark and others who think I'm way outta line and off-base? Have you guys prayed about this?

Tithing funds were NOT used on the City Creek Mall...period.

Where did the investment funds come from that earned the profits which supposedly paid for the mall? It all goes back to tithing at some point, so this is a false statement.

Somewhere in this thread that was explained very well. Concern for downtown Salt Lake where Church Headquarters are located as well as sacred temple grounds, family history center, etc., should always be a priority.

A priority for what? Keeping the temple grounds safe and free of 'street scum'? Yeah, I'm sure that's how Christ would feel about it.

I would dare say, even though I have not researched it, that many of us do not understand all the legal "stuff" that goes in to this kind of development; i.e, what the Church owns literally; what the franchise people own; etc. This is a much more complicated world than when the Church was new and young.

Irrelevant - first of all, I see no reason or some 'higher purpose' for a church spending $5 BILLION on a luxury mall because it desires to 'preserve the sanctity of the Salt Lake temple' as this is a concern for the city of Salt Lake, not a religious institution and secondly, do you honestly think the Lord and our Savior need a luxury mall with high-priced, expensive retailers for the more well-to-do for a profit venture to appeal to the world while at the same time, following through with the project in order to keep 'street scum' from tarnishing the image of temple square while many members and non-members alike throughout the world have a lot of need right now?

I trust completely the brethren and when I raise my hand to sustain them this coming week-end it will be recorded in Heaven.

Me too, but they are not perfect men and I'm not sure why you and Mark can't grasp that? I also find it interesting that no one has said anything in regards to the information I posted earlier in the thread about the 1999 tornado that hit downtown Salt Lake.

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

Col, evidently you did not see the post regarding where the Church gets a lot of it's money. It doesn't have to "dip" into tithing funds....there are many very wealthy LDS people who give generously to the Church OTHER THAN their tithing money....which goes into some other funds category. No doubt the Church makes additional money off of how they invest. Perhaps you can take the time to scroll back and read some of the explanatory post since I may not be doing them justice. I don't doubt you when you say you have prayed about it....I just don't believe you've received the correct answer. I don't mean that to sound arrogant in any way, it's just that I have already received answers in the past regarding stewardship, etc., and I have absolutely no doubt they are doing what is right. You have every right to hold any concerns you might have....those of us who have objected have objected to the public way you have handled this and a couple of other concerns.

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a three-year system for collecting and spending tithes.

In the first year the funds are collected.

In the second year the funds remain invested while a budget is prepared for spending the tithing.

In the third year the funds are spent.

During the time when the funds are collected (first year), they are put to use in investments or deposits which yield a return. Similarly, while they remain invested during the second year, they also yield a return. When the third year arrives, and the funds are being spent on budgeted expenses, until the day they are spent they continue to collect interest or a return.

The amount of tithing collected in the first year is the amount designated "tithing" contributions. This is the amount that is budgeted and spent in the third year. All of the return on tithing yielded in the form of interest or return on investments is treated as "investment income" not tithing.

When the church spends "tithing" on temples, chapels, publications, etc. those monies are confined to the original amount collected as "tithing" only.

When the church spends "investment money" those include the interest, return, etc. collected on the tithing money during the three year cycle from when originally collected until the time it is spent. It also includes the returns on the returns as they accumulate over the years.

Therefore, when the church announces that a project (like the large reconstruction of downtown Salt Lake City) is not "tithing" but is "investment income" of the church, this is the distinction which is being made.

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

Is it wrong to expect the Restored Church of Jesus Christ to govern the spiritual matters of this generation and ignore the temporal ones? Except to help people with their temporal needs.

Where the leaders lead us spiritually, I will remain less interested in voicing opinion.

Where the leaders lead the INSTITUTION of the church in temporal matters, I see no reason for people not to voice opinions, dissenting or otherwise. Who else are the leaders to know our opinion? The INSTITUTION of the church is ruled by common consent. This implicitly acknowledges a role for the voice of the members.

The confusion between the spiritual role of the church and the temporal role of the church is partially responsible for much difference of opinion within this thread-I believe.

I have not interpreted any voices here as being disrespectful or having the spirit of apostasy. I am thankful for this forum as an avenue to express my opinions. And I appreciate the opinions that have been shared here, even those who disagree.

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has a three-year system for collecting and spending tithes.

In the first year the funds are collected.

In the second year the funds remain invested while a budget is prepared for spending the tithing.

In the third year the funds are spent.

During the time when the funds are collected (first year), they are put to use in investments or deposits which yield a return. Similarly, while they remain invested during the second year, they also yield a return. When the third year arrives, and the funds are being spent on budgeted expenses, until the day they are spent they continue to collect interest or a return.

The amount of tithing collected in the first year is the amount designated "tithing" contributions. This is the amount that is budgeted and spent in the third year. All of the return on tithing yielded in the form of interest or return on investments is treated as "investment income" not tithing.

When the church spends "tithing" on temples, chapels, publications, etc. those monies are confined to the original amount collected as "tithing" only.

When the church spends "investment money" those include the interest, return, etc. collected on the tithing money during the three year cycle from when originally collected until the time it is spent. It also includes the returns on the returns as they accumulate over the years.

Therefore, when the church announces that a project (like the large reconstruction of downtown Salt Lake City) is not "tithing" but is "investment income" of the church, this is the distinction which is being made.

That's true, ATL...I was aware of you or someone else posting the above before. However, the Church also receives millions in donations that are NOT designated as tithing from those latter-day saints who can afford to do so. There's a whole section on lds.org on how to do that when you are preparing your will, etc. Investment income would also include what they do with those kinds of donations and what the investment would yield...as well as what they do with the principal. I, personally, rest well at night regarding their stewardship...in fact, I don't give it another thought.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Let's go back to 1999 for a moment...



What did the tornado hit or damage during its brief existence?

1. The outdoor retailers summer market (many men in the church make the outdoors a second religion and hunt for sport)
2. Gay bars (no explanation needed there)
3. The Delta Center (many Saints also make basketball a religion and have been known to attend playoff games on Sunday)
4. Hotels (many Hotels in Salt Lake offer porn)
5. Restaurants (fine dining)
6. State government offices (no explanation needed there)
7. The new LDS conference center (was undergoing construction at the time - some consider it to be a 'great and spacious building')
8. The Avenues (ritzy part of Salt Lake where the rich live, including many GA's)

Of those 8, what does the new City Creek Center offer? Retail shopping, alcohol, expensive lodging, fancy eateries, a highly expensive complex constructed by the church (just like the conference center was) and you could say it's also 'ritzy'. Quite interesting. Was this tornado just a freak, random act of nature... or something more? I think that answer is obvious.

I'd be careful assigning "judgements". If the Lord wanted the Conference Center halted He would have halted it. The Conference Center was built to withstand the physical storms of the Latter-days. I think the very rare tornado proved that. The tornado also hit a hospital yet avoided the state capital. I think your interpretation of why the tornado hit where it did is based on your own thoughts and reasoning, and they are flawed!
"The Church wanted a building to last at least 150 years. As the project progressed, builders may have come to appreciate President Hinckley’s view expressed at the groundbreaking in 1997. He said the Conference Center would be “built as well as we know how to build in this season of the history of the world, and I hope that it will stand for as long as the earth lasts and serve the purpose of the kingdom of God.”

But more importantly, Col. Flagg, and I hope you actually think about these words from the prophet, is Pres. Hinckley's description of why the church moved forward with this-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it," Hinckley said in April 2000. "And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Let's go back to 1999 for a moment...



What did the tornado hit or damage during its brief existence?

1. The outdoor retailers summer market (many men in the church make the outdoors a second religion and hunt for sport)
2. Gay bars (no explanation needed there)
3. The Delta Center (many Saints also make basketball a religion and have been known to attend playoff games on Sunday)
4. Hotels (many Hotels in Salt Lake offer porn)
5. Restaurants (fine dining)
6. State government offices (no explanation needed there)
7. The new LDS conference center (was undergoing construction at the time - some consider it to be a 'great and spacious building')
8. The Avenues (ritzy part of Salt Lake where the rich live, including many GA's)

Of those 8, what does the new City Creek Center offer? Retail shopping, alcohol, expensive lodging, fancy eateries, a highly expensive complex constructed by the church (just like the conference center was) and you could say it's also 'ritzy'. Quite interesting. Was this tornado just a freak, random act of nature... or something more? I think that answer is obvious.

I'd be careful assigning "judgements".

Who's judging? I'm just pointing out that the tornado may have been a warning from upstairs - I mean the odds of a tornado are very slim in Utah, let alone an F2 right in downtown Salt Lake and striking the areas it did. It's an observation, not a judgment.

If the Lord wanted the Conference Center halted He would have halted it.

Then why didn't the Lord stop the payment of $250,000 to criminal Mark Hoffman back in the '80's for forged docs?

The Conference Center was built to withstand the physical storms of the Latter-days. I think the very rare tornado proved that. The tornado also hit a hospital yet avoided the state capital. I think your interpretation of why the tornado hit where it did is based on your own thoughts and reasoning, and they are flawed!

Maybe... maybe not. The hospital was on the southern end of the twister and not in its direct path and if the message was for the church and immoral, then it makes sense that the state Capitol was left unscathed (not that there's never anything immoral that goes on inside).

But more importantly, Col. Flagg, and I hope you actually think about these words from the prophet, is Pres. Hinckley's description of why the church moved forward with this-
"The building of this structure has been a bold undertaking. We worried about it. We prayed about it. We listened for the whisperings of the Spirit concerning it," Hinckley said in April 2000. "And only when we felt the confirming voice of the Lord did we determine to go forward."

If that's what President Hinckley said, that's good enough for me. I'd just like to hear that from a church official regarding the construction of a $5 BILLION mall.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Col, evidently you did not see the post regarding where the Church gets a lot of it's money. It doesn't have to "dip" into tithing funds....there are many very wealthy LDS people who give generously to the Church OTHER THAN their tithing money....which goes into some other funds category.

Nat, every penny the church has made originated at some point from tithing, plain and simple. And let's say a large chunk (if not all) of the funds for the construction came from donated monies - are you telling me the church couldn't find a better use for $5 BILLION than for a fancy shopping mall for the more well-to-do and to keep the temple from being desecrated from 'street scum' and run-down places around the area? The sanctity of a religious structure has nothing to do with what surrounds it on the outside - it has to do with what transpires on the inside and who enters.

I don't doubt you when you say you have prayed about it....I just don't believe you've received the correct answer. I don't mean that to sound arrogant in any way, it's just that I have already received answers in the past regarding stewardship, etc., and I have absolutely no doubt they are doing what is right.

I know you aren't being arrogant and get what you are saying.

You have every right to hold any concerns you might have....

Thank you!!!

those of us who have objected have objected to the public way you have handled this and a couple of other concerns.

I know and I will work on that.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

If that's what President Hinckley said, that's good enough for me. I'd just like to hear that from a church official regarding the construction of a $5 BILLION mall.

First of all Pres. Hinckley did say that so I suppose we won't hear anymore complaints about the conference center OR the tornado hitting it as a warning from the Lord? After all, if the Lord approved it, and the prophet said He did, then there would be no need for Him to call those who built it to repentance.

Secondly, I doubt you'll hear the same for the 1.5 billion dollar property acquisition and infrastructure aka city creek mall by the prophet, but I could be wrong. Part of the reason is that the conference center was built by the church using tithing funds whereas the property/infrastructure on the south side of the Temple was built by a for-profit corporation owned by the church and didn't use tithing money, or even money seeded by tithing. But that's just my conjecture. I still think history will prove that the city creek mall was built with foresight and will be considered a great investment by the naysayers.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

If that's what President Hinckley said, that's good enough for me. I'd just like to hear that from a church official regarding the construction of a $5 BILLION mall.

First of all Pres. Hinckley did say that so I suppose we won't hear anymore complaints about the conference center OR the tornado hitting it as a warning from the Lord?

Who's complaining - I'm just pointing out an observation.

After all, if the Lord approved it, and the prophet said He did, then there would be no need for Him to call those who built it to repentance.

Unless the brethren didn't really have divine inspiration for it and built it with the intent to not only use it twice a year for conference, but also to make money by charging production companies to use the facility for performances?

I still think history will prove that the city creek mall was built with foresight and will be considered a great investment by the naysayers.

Shadowman, that's the problem... the word 'investment' - when did the church become a money-making institution first and foremost? All this talk from church officials (H. David Burton specifically) about revenues, income, investment, profit, etc. is not the reason a church exists nor is it a primary function or concern for its leaders (at least it shouldn't be).

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

If that's what President Hinckley said, that's good enough for me. I'd just like to hear that from a church official regarding the construction of a $5 BILLION mall.

First of all Pres. Hinckley did say that so I suppose we won't hear anymore complaints about the conference center OR the tornado hitting it as a warning from the Lord? After all, if the Lord approved it, and the prophet said He did, then there would be no need for Him to call those who built it to repentance.

Secondly, I doubt you'll hear the same for the 1.5 billion dollar property acquisition and infrastructure aka city creek mall by the prophet, but I could be wrong. Part of the reason is that the conference center was built by the church using tithing funds whereas the property/infrastructure on the south side of the Temple was built by a for-profit corporation owned by the church and didn't use tithing money, or even money seeded by tithing. But that's just my conjecture. I still think history will prove that the city creek mall was built with foresight and will be considered a great investment by the naysayers.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

If that's what President Hinckley said, that's good enough for me. I'd just like to hear that from a church official regarding the construction of a $5 BILLION mall.

First of all Pres. Hinckley did say that so I suppose we won't hear anymore complaints about the conference center OR the tornado hitting it as a warning from the Lord? After all, if the Lord approved it, and the prophet said He did, then there would be no need for Him to call those who built it to repentance.

Secondly, I doubt you'll hear the same for the 1.5 billion dollar property acquisition and infrastructure aka city creek mall by the prophet, but I could be wrong. Part of the reason is that the conference center was built by the church using tithing funds whereas the property/infrastructure on the south side of the Temple was built by a for-profit corporation owned by the church and didn't use tithing money, or even money seeded by tithing. But that's just my conjecture. I still think history will prove that the city creek mall was built with foresight and will be considered a great investment by the naysayers.

Juliette, please enlighten me... how is a $5 BILLION mall going to accomplish any of the 4-fold missions of the church (unless, of course, making money is now one of them)?

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Is this what our Lord and Savior are 'inspiring' our church leaders to do with BILLIONS??? Our Heavenly Father and Savior are up there directing their church to engage in this? Really?

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Col., The men who lead our church are shrewd business men. Our Church owns dairies, ranches and who knows what else.
What makes you think that they don't know what they are doing? Oh ye of little faith.

[Thinkercaptain of 100]

Col., The men who lead our church are shrewd business men. Our Church owns dairies, ranches and who knows what else.
What makes you think that they don't know what they are doing? Oh ye of little faith.

Oh ye who are blind, following the blind.
I realize you, like me have been trained from a baby to not question our leaders... to think of them as practically god - infallible. But guess what? They are imperfect human beings.
In a way, I'm glad this mall was built - it gives us a little glimpse at the true priorities of the church.
This mall is just the tip of the iceberg, Juliette.
Here are some other corporations owned by our church & "shrewd business men."

-Deseret Management Corporation
-Beneficial Financial Group
-Bonneville International
-Bonneville Interactive Services
-Bonneville Satellite
-35 Radio Stations
-1 Television Station (KSL)
-Deseret Book
-Excel Entertainment
-Deseret Morning News
-Hawaii Reserves
-Polynesian Cultural Center (PCC)
-La'ie Shopping Center
-Mstar.net
-Temple Square Hospitality
-Weddings (Josph Smith MB & Lion House)
-The Inn at Temple Square (no longer - since Mall pursuit)
-Lion House Pantry
-The Roof Restaurant
-The Garden Restaurant
-Passages Restaurant
-Zions Securities Corporation
-Deseret Trust company
-LDS Family Services
-Propery Reserves Inc. (PRI)
-Ensign Peak Advisors
-Deseret Mutual Benefit Administrators (DMBA)
-Brigham Young University (BYU)
-BYU- Idaho
-BYU- Hawaii
-LDS Business College
(& more...)

There is a reason why we are commanded to have no other gods before God (who is love).
There is a reason why loving God & others are the greatest commandments, "which hang all the laws & the prophets."
There is a reason why Jesus taught the parable of the good Samaritan & commanded us to "go & do likewise."
There is a reason why scripture specifically states tithes are for the poor: (this scripture is mysteriously left out of lds bible indexes & dictionaries).

"At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, & shall lay it up within thy gates: & the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) & the stranger, & the fatherless, & the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, & shall eat & be satisfied; that the Lord thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand with thou doest." -Deut 14:28-29

Juliette, if you or your child were one of the almost 1 billion starving to death, I think you might have a different perspective about faith in men who steal from the poor, secretly hide church finances & use church funds for corporations like this mall.
http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Lea ... 202002.htm

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Curious. For those convinced that our leaders are apostates. Now what? Are you going to splinter off? Are you planning on something else? What?

[Thinkercaptain of 100]

Coachmarc,
I still attend church & I still maintain standards I feel are good & of God.
I don't rely on the church for spiritual growth - since it's focus is not that.
I teach my kids correct principles, which means correcting some of the teachings they learn in church.
Overall, I love my experience of the people in church - which is not with the leaders, but with members, who are mostly good & kind & loving.
I know more are waking up to realize that the church & its leaders are NOT God.
Forums like NOM (New Order Mormon) have helped, although they can be a bit negative at times.
With everything, I'm learning to "study it out, ponder & pray" for myself & not accept anybody's word at face value.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Coachmarc,
I still attend church & I still maintain standards I feel are good & of God.
I don't rely on the church for spiritual growth - since it's focus is not that.
I teach my kids correct principles, which means correcting some of the teachings they learn in church.
Overall, I love my experience of the people in church - which is not with the leaders, but with members, who are mostly good & kind & loving.
I know more are waking up to realize that the church & its leaders are NOT God.
Forums like NOM (New Order Mormon) have helped, although they can be a bit negative at times.
With everything, I'm learning to "study it out, ponder & pray" for myself & not accept anybody's word at face value.

Thank you. I think most of us do this. Whatever direction our church goes, I still sustain our leaders. What more can we do? One way or another, we ARE being tested.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Thinker, The Church could not do the world wide humanitarian work it does, had it not invested the money wisely.
There is a Master Plan. I do not doubt these men. I'm sorry you feel so badly about it. I can tell you un-equvicollay that you are wrong in calling me blind. Please re-consider assuming stewardship that is not yours. Have faith. It will all work-out, as President Hinckley would say! ( How I miss him!)

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Coachmarc,
I still attend church & I still maintain standards I feel are good & of God.
I don't rely on the church for spiritual growth - since it's focus is not that.
I teach my kids correct principles, which means correcting some of the teachings they learn in church.
Overall, I love my experience of the people in church - which is not with the leaders, but with members, who are mostly good & kind & loving.
I know more are waking up to realize that the church & its leaders are NOT God.
Forums like NOM (New Order Mormon) have helped, although they can be a bit negative at times.
With everything, I'm learning to "study it out, ponder & pray" for myself & not accept anybody's word at face value.

Actions speak louder than words don't they? A few more scriptures to contemplate...

He who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity will stand in the Lord’s holy place (Psalms 24: 3-4). The large and spacious building is vain imaginations and pride (1 Nephi 12: 18). Will ye persist in setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world? (Alma 5: 53). Seek not after the vain things of this world, for you cannot carry them with you (Alma 39: 14). Vanity and unbelief have brought the Church under condemnation (D&C 84: 54-55). When we try to gratify our vain ambition, the heavens withdraw (D&C 121: 37).

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Col. Flagg, you presume much. If you and I get to be friends, you will know that I am none of those things. I understand what you're saying, and perhaps you can answer my question now. Will you splinter off now? Or something else?

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Coachmarc,
I still attend church & I still maintain standards I feel are good & of God.
I don't rely on the church for spiritual growth - since it's focus is not that.
I teach my kids correct principles, which means correcting some of the teachings they learn in church.
Overall, I love my experience of the people in church - which is not with the leaders, but with members, who are mostly good & kind & loving.
I know more are waking up to realize that the church & its leaders are NOT God.
Forums like NOM (New Order Mormon) have helped, although they can be a bit negative at times.
With everything, I'm learning to "study it out, ponder & pray" for myself & not accept anybody's word at face value.

Actions speak louder than words don't they? A few more scriptures to contemplate...

He who has not lifted up his soul unto vanity will stand in the Lord’s holy place (Psalms 24: 3-4). The large and spacious building is vain imaginations and pride (1 Nephi 12: 18). Will ye persist in setting your hearts upon the vain things of the world? (Alma 5: 53). Seek not after the vain things of this world, for you cannot carry them with you (Alma 39: 14). Vanity and unbelief have brought the Church under condemnation (D&C 84: 54-55). When we try to gratify our vain ambition, the heavens withdraw (D&C 121: 37).

What are you doing Col.??? This is dangerous. I can on longer be a part of it. You need to STOP

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Thinker, The Church could not do the world wide humanitarian work it does, had it not invested the money wisely.

Juliette, are we to be a corporation first and a church second... or should it be vice-versa? 'Invested' - that's what corporations and businesses do to make money - you are implying that the church, as a corporation, is out to make money and that is what is going to sustain us and allow us to care for the poor and needy. Wrong - vain ambitions and a love of money will only lead to more pride and less use of it to take care of the poor and needy - this is why I am so concerned about the direction the church is going with its use of now billions of dollars. Are you not aware that the church has spent about $1.5 billion in the last 25 years on humanitarian aid... but just dropped more than three times that... for a luxury mall... in a fraction of the time of 25 years? The church already has countless other businesses that are doing well enough to help with humanitarian aid and to also care for the poor and needy without a luxury mall similar to what you might find in Beverly Hills, CA.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Col. Flagg, in case you decide not to answer my question, I say only this. In Lehi's vision, nobody pointed and mocked others while holding to the iron rod, while partaking of the fruit of the tree of life or while lost in the mist of darkness or even in the filthy river. No, only those in the great and spacious building pointed and mocked. Be careful who you call proud and vain, my friend.

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

For those who have eyes to see read 2 Nephi 12 and 2 Nephi 13.

16 Moreover, the Lord saith: Because the daughters of Zion are ahaughty, and bwalk with stretched-forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet—

17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a ascab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will bdiscover their secret parts.

18 In that aday the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments, and cauls, and round tires like the moon;

19 The chains and the bracelets, and the mufflers;

20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the ear-rings;

21 The rings, and nose jewels;

22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping-pins;

23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and hoods, and the veils.

24 And it shall come to pass, instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle, a rent; and instead of well set hair, abaldness; and instead of a stomacher, a girding of sackcloth; bburning instead of cbeauty.


12 And my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they who alead thee cause thee to err and destroy the way of thy paths.

Col. could cite more scriptures all day long. But those who cannot see, well, cannot see.