Who are the Gentiles in 3 Nephi?

[Gideoncaptain of 100]

Several posts, on different threads, have claimed that the Gentiles mentioned in 3 Nephi are references to the LDS church. Based on the following verses, who do you think they are?

The Gentiles are to be converted through preaching, they will not see Christ nor hear his voice.

22 And they understood me not, for they supposed it had been the Gentiles; for they understood not that the Gentiles should be converted through their preaching.
23 And they understood me not that I said they shall hear my voice; and they understood me not that the Gentiles should not at any time hear my voice—that I should not manifest myself unto them save it were by the Holy Ghost.
(3 Nephi 15:22–23‎)‎


Two classes of Gentiles – believing and unbelieving.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;
( 3 Nephi 16:7–8‎)‎

The Gentiles sin against the gospel, and reject the fulness of the gospel. The fulness of the gospel is taken from among them, and given to the house of Israel. Who will take the gospel to the house of Israel?

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
( 3 Nephi 16:10–11‎)‎


There are nations of the Gentiles, are there nations of Latter-day Saints?

20 And it shall come to pass, saith the Father, that the sword of my justice shall hang over them at that day; and except they repent it shall fall upon them, saith the Father, yea, even upon all the nations of the Gentiles.
( 3 Nephi 20:20‎)‎

They scattered the house of Israel. Did the LDS church scatter the house of Israel? Did they scatter anyone?

27 And after that ye were blessed then fulfilleth the Father the covenant which he made with Abraham, saying: In thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed—unto the pouring out of the Holy Ghost through me upon the Gentiles, which blessing upon the Gentiles shall make them mighty above all, unto the scattering of my people, O house of Israel.
( 3 Nephi 20:27‎)‎

They will be established in “this land” and set up as a free people, and they will bring the gospel to the House of Israel. The covenant of the Father is fulfilled when the Gentiles bring the gospel to the house of Israel.

2 And behold, this is the thing which I will give unto you for a sign—for verily I say unto you that when these things which I declare unto you, and which I shall declare unto you hereafter of myself, and by the power of the Holy Ghost which shall be given unto you of the Father, shall be made known unto the Gentiles that they may know concerning this people who are a remnant of the house of Jacob, and concerning this my people who shall be scattered by them;
3 Verily, verily, I say unto you, when these things shall be made known unto them of the Father, and shall come forth of the Father, from them unto you;
4 For it is wisdom in the Father that they should be established in this land, and be set up as a free people by the power of the Father, that these things might come forth from them unto a remnant of your seed, that the covenant of the Father may be fulfilled which he hath covenanted with his people, O house of Israel;
5 Therefore, when these works and the works which shall be wrought among you hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles, unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;
( 3 Nephi 21:2–5‎)‎

Judgements upon the Gentiles if they do not repent.

14 Yea, wo be unto the Gentiles except they repent; for it shall come to pass in that day, saith the Father, that I will cut off thy horses out of the midst of thee, and I will destroy thy chariots;
15 And I will cut off the cities of thy land, and throw down all thy strongholds;
16 And I will cut off witchcrafts out of thy land, and thou shalt have no more soothsayers;
17 Thy graven images I will also cut off, and thy standing images out of the midst of thee, and thou shalt no more worship the works of thy hands;
18 And I will pluck up thy groves out of the midst of thee; so will I destroy thy cities.
19 And it shall come to pass that all lyings, and deceivings, and envyings, and strifes, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, shall be done away.
( 3 Nephi 21:14–19‎)‎

If they do repent, the Lord will establish his church among them, and they will assist with the gathering of Israel and the building of the New Jerusalem. Has his church been established? Are we assisting in the gathering of Israel?

22 But if they will repent and hearken unto my words, and harden not their hearts, I will establish my church among them, and they shall come in unto the covenant and be numbered among this the remnant of Jacob, unto whom I have given this land for their inheritance;
23 And they shall assist my people, the remnant of Jacob, and also as many of the house of Israel as shall come, that they may build a city, which shall be called the New Jerusalem.
24 And then shall they assist my people that they may be gathered in, who are scattered upon all the face of the land, in unto the New Jerusalem.
( 3 Nephi 21:22–24‎)‎

Here is my take on these verses. Right now is the Times of the Gentiles. This is the time when the gospel is taken to as many of the nations of the Gentiles as possible. Some of them believe, most do not. They sin against this great knowledge and the preaching stops, to them anyway. At this point, in fulfillment of the covenants of the Father, the church sends its missionaries to the house of Israel.

So, I conclude that some of the verses above are about the LDS church, but the rest are about the nations of the Gentiles, perhaps the USA specifically (see 3 Nephi 16:10).

What are your thoughts on these verses?

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

When Christ told the Jews that he had other sheep, they thought He meant the Gentiles, meaning anyone not of the Jewish nation or faith. They were so stiff necked that they looked past the mark, seeking for greater meaning of scripture and spiritual things that the Lord gave to them exactly what they wanted (parables, etc) that they stumbled.

Genesis 10:1-5:

1 Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

2 The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras.

3 And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah.

4 And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim.

5 By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

We may infer that the sons of Japheth, their lineage are all technically Gentiles.

In the LDS faith, we believe that all not of the house of Israel are Gentiles. Furthermore, as members, we are adopted into the House of Israel (read your patriarchal blessings) and therefore anyone who is a member and of Israel either by lineage or adoption, is not a Gentile.

"Who are the Gentiles in 3 Nephi?"

The Book of Mormon was written for both the Jew and the Gentile, Jew meaning literal descendants of the House of Israel or Gentile, those not descended from the tribe of Israel or those of the House of Ephraim who are scattered among the Gentiles throughout the earth.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

We are the Gemtiles.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

In the Book Of Mormon, each time it mentions Gentiles, it is referring to the historically Christan nations of the world - including USA being prideful, rejecting the gospel, and being trodden down.
Many try to force the meaning to say this means the modern LDS Church and pepoplebsd a whole.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

*Modern LDS Church and people as a whole*
Sorry about the typo

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Nephi knew that he descended from Joseph, not Judah. All the BOM prophets knew this, from Lehi to Jacob, from Alma (Noah's priest) to Alma, Helaman, Helaman, Nephi, etc. The lineage of Lehi was preserved. The Book of Mormon is the stick of Joseph. Moroni's title page dedicates the record to both the Jew and the Gentile. Therefore, anyone not Jewish is Gentile.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

According to the Book of Mormon definitions, we are the gentiles. Nephi sets the definition in his book and every other writer in the BofM stays true to Nephi's definition. The book is very clear about who is a Jew, a remnant, the house of Israel, and a Gentile.

Who are the Gentiles?
Growing up as a Latter-Day Saint in a largely Mormon community, I was educated that the gentiles represented those that did not believe as I did. As Mormons, we were of the house of Israel and were responsible for seeking out others of our kind from among the Gentiles around us. As such the warnings found in the latter day scriptures applied to others and not to me.

So, who are the Gentiles and what is their station in the kingdom of God? The scriptures again help to move the fog away so we can understand the message to us. On the title page of the Book of Mormon we read of several groups of people:

"Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile..."

The Book of Mormon was written to three groups:

•Lamanites - a remnant of the house of Israel
•Jews
•Gentiles
By a simple process of elimination, the bulk of the LDS church falls into the category of Gentiles. In fact, as it states in the citation above, the Book of Mormon was 'to come forth... by way of the Gentile.

This is further reinforced several times in the scriptures. For example, in 1st Nephi, Chapter 15 we read:

"13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—"

The Book of Mormon, which contains the fulness of the gospel, will come by and to the Gentiles. As such we should understand how the warnings in the Book of Mormon apply to the members of the LDS church. Are we considered Gentiles or are we of the house of Israel?

Those who have read the 3rd chapter of 2nd Nephi know that it emphatically states that Joseph Smith was a descendent of Joseph of Egypt and through his son Ephraim, the tribe chosen as a royal generation. Most of the patriarchal blessings in the church show lineage from Joseph through his two sons. Many in the church claim common ancestors with Joseph Smith and are, therefore, of the tribe of Joseph and of the house of Israel.

Does this line of reasoning outweigh the clear references of the role of the Gentiles in the restoration of the gospel? Let's look at another example of the defining role of the Gentiles. This is found in the 16th chapter of 3rd Nephi:

"6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.
7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.
8 But wo, saith the Father, unto the unbelieving of the Gentiles—for notwithstanding they have come forth upon the face of this land, and have scattered my people who are of the house of Israel; and my people who are of the house of Israel have been cast out from among them, and have been trodden under feet by them;"

There are two points to be made from this scripture reference. First, the Gentiles are blessed because of their belief in the Lord and have received a witness through the Holy Ghost. Who else could that be other than the Latter-Day Saints? Secondly, the Lord references the 'unbelieving' of the Gentiles in verse 8 above. It is obvious that there are 'believers' among the Gentiles as well as the 'unbelieving.' I would suggest that the treatment of the word 'Gentile' is consistent across the three books of Nephi in the Book of Mormon and is supported by the Doctrine and Covenants.

Can those involved in the latter day restoration of the gospel be both Gentiles and descendants of Joseph of Egypt? I believe the answer is yes. In the 48th chapter of Genesis in the Old Testament, we read of the blessing Jacob gives to the two sons of Joseph, Ephraim and Manasseh. As Joseph presents his two sons with Manasseh, the eldest, positioned to be under the right hand of Jacob, he finds his father crossing his arms in order to place his right hand on Ephraim. Here is Joseph's protest and Jacob's response:

"13 And Joseph took them both, Ephraim in his right hand toward Israel's left hand, and Manasseh in his left hand toward Israel's right hand, and brought them near unto him.
14 And Israel stretched out his right hand, and laid it upon Ephraim's head, who was the younger, and his left hand upon Manasseh's head, guiding his hands wittingly; for Manasseh was the firstborn.
15 ¶ And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day.
16 The Angel which redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow into a multitude in the midst of the earth.
17 And when Joseph saw that his father laid his right hand upon the head of Ephraim, it displeased him: and he held up his father's hand, to remove it from Ephraim's head unto Manasseh's head.
18 And Joseph said unto his father, Not so, my father: for this is the firstborn; put thy right hand upon his head.
19 And his father refused, and said, I know it, my son, I know it: he also shall become a people, and he also shall be great: but truly his younger brother shall be greater than he, and his seed shall become a multitude of nations."

In the last verse cited, Jacob blessed Manasseh to "become a people" while he blessed Ephraim that he would become a 'multitude of nations.' In Manasseh's case, the Hebrew word 'am' is translated as people. This same word, according to Strong's Concordance translates to family, people, and relatives. In other words, Manasseh was blessed to become a tribe. On the other hand, the blessing of Ephraim uses the Hebrew 'goyim' translated as nations. This is the same word translated as Gentiles throughout the Old Testament. Thus, an alternative translation of the 'multitude of nations' is the 'fulness of the gentiles." I suggest you check this out for yourself. The Gentile nations were populated by the descendents of Ephraim and today constitute the bulk of the converts to the restoration. In this way, the bulk of the members of the church can claim lineage from Ephraim and still be considered Gentiles.

Consider also this scripture found in the Doctrine and Covenants, Section 42:

"39 For it shall come to pass, that which I spake by the mouths of my prophets shall be fulfilled; for I will consecrate of the riches of those who embrace my gospel among the Gentiles unto the poor of my people who are of the house of Israel."

Do you consider yourself a rich Gentile who embraced the gospel or a poor member of the house of Israel? It seems reasonable that the members of the LDS church cannot properly apply the title of the house of Israel to themselves.

This approach does indeed provide an answer to the question; Are the Latter Day Saints Gentiles or the house of Israel? The correct answer is: They are both. The important point to be made through is that the Latter Day Saints are included in the Gentile 'bucket' of the Book of Mormon. As such, the members of the LDS church should take heed of all the warnings to the Gentiles found in the latter day scripture. Here is one such call found in the last chapter of 3rd Nephi:

"2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and repent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel."

The message to us here is, of course, repent and come unto me. Please note that there are two conditional phrases employed in this scripture:

•Be baptized in my name
◦that ye may receive a remission of your sins
•Be filled with the Holy Ghost
◦that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel
Both of these conditional statements support the concepts presented earlier. First, baptism by water and by fire are necessary for the remission of sins. Second, we must be sanctified by the Holy Ghost to be numbered with the church or God's chosen house of Israel.

All the warnings found in the scriptures pertaining to the Gentiles are also for our ears and hearts. The Book of Mormon was given to us containing the fulness of the gospel. We must heed these warnings if we are to be numbered with the people of God. We must also remember that we are repeatedly encouraged to be 'numbered with the house of Israel.'

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Who authored the above quote, Reese?

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

We are the Gentiles.

“We have heretofore identified the Jews as both the nationals of the kingdom of Judah and as their lineal descendants, all this without reference to tribal affiliation. And we have said, within this usage of terms, that all other people are Gentiles, including the lost and scattered remnants of the kingdom of Israel in whose veins the precious blood of him whose name was Israel does in fact flow. Thus Joseph Smith, of the tribe of Ephraim, the chief and foremost tribe of Israel itself, was the Gentile by whose hand the Book of Mormon came forth, and the members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who have the gospel and who are of Israel by blood descent, are the Gentiles who carry salvation to the Lamanites and to the Jews.” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 233)

“It is to those who are not Jews that the Lord promised to give his gospel first in the last days. “In the latter days, when our seed”—now known as Lamanites—”shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years,” Nephi said, “and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then”—and this is to be in the glorious age of restoration in which we now live—”then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, [the Latter-day church] and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed.” This gospel shall come to them “by way of the Gentiles.” Why? “That the Lord may show his power unto the Gentiles,” Nephi continues, “for the very cause that he shall be rejected of the Jews, or of the house of Israel.” (1 Ne. 15:13-17.)

“We are those Gentiles of whom Nephi speaks. We have received in this age of restoration the fulness of the everlasting gospel. It is now beginning to go from us to the Lamanites and to the Jews. But the great day of the Lamanites and the great day of the Jews both lie ahead. In the full and true sense of the word, the day of their worldwide glory, the day of the triumph and glory of both the Lamanites and the Jews, in all nations—that day will be millennial.” (McConkie, Millennial Messiah, p 238)

And

“We may observe that the times of the Gentiles are rapidly nearing their close by watching the signs of the times. One of the first signs that the days of the Gentiles are nearing their close was given when Palestine was turned over to Great Britain and a Jewish state proclaimed. Another indication is the fact that the Jews are beginning to believe in Christ. They have not yet reached the point where they are willing to receive him as their Redeemer, and they will not, only here and there an individual, until Christ comes as their Deliverer. [the Second Coming and Millennium].” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Restoration of all Things, p 164-165)

“It is part of the great plan that the Jews shall gather [to Jerusalem] in their unbelief and then our Lord will appear to them as spoken of by Zechariah. Then they will be fully converted, and not until then. However, there is a great work to be accomplished among the scattered remnants of Israel and the Lord has said:

“And then shall the power of heaven come down among them; and I also will be in the midst.

“And then shall the work of the Father commence at that day, even when this Gospel shall be preached among the remnant of this people [scattered Israel]. Verily I say unto you, at that day shall the work of the Father commence among all the dispersed of my people, yea, even the tribes which have been lost, which the Father hath led away out of Jerusalem.—III Nephi 21.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Restoration of all Things, p. 165)

From these quotes we may conclude that WE are the latter-day Gentiles.

Why would the authors of the Book of Mormon address people who do not read the book?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

“If any of the Gentiles will believe, we will lay our hands upon them that they may receive the Holy Ghost, and the Lord will make them of the house of Israel. They will be broken off from the wild olive tree, and be grafted into the good and tame olive tree, and will partake of its sap and fatness. … It is so with the House of Israel and the Gentile nations; if the Gentiles are grafted into the good olive tree they will partake of its root and fatness.” Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, 2:269.)

“Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham’s children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph. Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs.” Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 3:246.)

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Gospel Principles glossary-

Gentile: A person who does not belong to the chosen people. The scriptures use the word to mean (1) non-Israelites, and (2) nonmembers of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Personally, I would include those members of the church who are not yet converted, but I think that's clarified in other statements from apostles and prophets, not to mention the Book of Mormon. In fact, does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

“If any of the Gentiles will believe, we will lay our hands upon them that they may receive the Holy Ghost, and the Lord will make them of the house of Israel. They will be broken off from the wild olive tree, and be grafted into the good and tame olive tree, and will partake of its sap and fatness. … It is so with the House of Israel and the Gentile nations; if the Gentiles are grafted into the good olive tree they will partake of its root and fatness.” Brigham Young (Journal of Discourses, 2:269.)

“Every person who embraces the gospel becomes of the house of Israel. In other words, they become members of the chosen lineage, or Abraham’s children through Isaac and Jacob unto whom the promises were made. The great majority of those who become members of the Church are literal descendants of Abraham through Ephraim, son of Joseph. Those who are not literal descendants of Abraham and Israel must become such, and when they are baptized and confirmed they are grafted into the tree and are entitled to all the rights and privileges as heirs.” Joseph Fielding Smith (Doctrines of Salvation, 3 vols., Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1954–56, 3:246.)

While all of that is true, that doesn't change that fact that we are first Gentiles. Whenever a gentile manages to acquire this adoption, they do not become identified as the "remnant" as a result. Instead, they become heirs to share in the promised blessings, but as "gentiles." The Church is identified with the Gentiles, D&C 109: 60. When the prophets address the Gentiles in the Book of Mormon, they are speaking to us.

2 Nephi 28: 24-25:

"Therefore, wo be unto him that is at ease in Zion! Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well!"

It is foolish to turn Nephi's message into a warning to some other latter-day group. The gentiles, who have received the Book of Mormon, and who claim they are better than others, puffed up with conceit about being chosen and highly favored of God, are the ones who would identify themselves as "Zion" in Nephi's prophecy. Not others. Us.

If you have reacted to the previous discussion with the notion that the interpretation given is really just an "opinion," and not an actual warning targeting the Latter-day Saints, you should reconsider. Although Nephi's message has been construed to apply to other faiths, (and the language certainly permits it) this part of Nephi's sermon makes the conclusion inevitable. He is not warning others. He is not primarily targeting the world of the last days. He is warning and attempting to save the souls of those who receive his writings and self-identify themselves as "Zion."

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

To whom has the Book of Mormon been written?

What possible good would it be for a message to be written for an audience who would never read the Book of Mormon?

If the term "Gentiles" is sometimes quite broad (and it is in some contexts), does the message get addressed to all of them? Is the message tailored to those who would read the book?

If the warnings are read to apply only to non-LDS occupants of the land, then what do the warnings accomplish? Do they make us proud? Do they make us feel better than "them," since only "they" are condemned and not us? What kind of a warning is it if the only ones being warned are those who will never read the book?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

As I already stated ATL-

Personally, I would include those members of the church who are not yet converted, but I think that's clarified in other statements from apostles and prophets, not to mention the Book of Mormon. In fact, does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

The Proclamation of the Twelve
The Lord will make her that halted a remnant; and gather her that was driven out and afflicted; and make her who was cast afar off, a strong nation; and will reign over them in Mount Zion from that time forth and for ever.

Or, in other words, He will assemble the Natives the remnants of Joseph in America; and make of them a great, and strong, and powerful nation: and he will civilize and enlighten them and will establish a holy city, and temple, and seat of government among them, which shall be called Zion.

And there shall be his tabernacle, his sanctuary, his throne, and seat of government for the whole continent of North and South America for ever.

In short, it will be to the western hemisphere what Jerusalem will be to the eastern.

And there the Messiah will visit them in person; and the old Saints, who will then have been raised from the dead, will be with him. And he will establish his kingdom and laws over all the land.

To this city, and to its several branches or stakes, shall the Gentiles seek, as to a standard of light and knowledge. Yea, the nations, and their kings and nobles, shall say, Come and let us go up to the Mount Zion, and to the temple of the Lord; where his holy priesthood stand to minister continually before the Lord; and where we may be instructed more fully, and receive the ordinances of remission, and of sanctification, and redemption; and thus be adopted into the family of Israel, and identified in the same covenants of promise.

The despised and degraded son of the forest, who has wandered in dejection and sorrow, and suffered reproach, shall then drop his disguise, and stand forth in manly dignity, and exclaim to the Gentiles who have envied and sold him: "I am Joseph: does my father yet live?" Or, in other words: I am a descendant of that Joseph who was sold into Egypt. You have hated me, and sold me, and thought I was dead. But lo! I live, and am heir to the inheritance, titles, honors, priesthood, sceptre, crown, throne, and eternal life and dignity of my fathers who live for evermore.

He shall then be ordained, washed, anointed with holy oil and arrayed in fine linen, even in the glorious and beautiful garments and royal robes of the high priesthood, which is after the order of the Son of God; and shall enter into the congregation of the Lord, even into the Holy of Holies, there to be crowned with authority and power which shall never end.

The Spirit of the Lord shall then descend upon him, like the dew upon the mountains of Hermon, and like refreshing showers of rain upon the flowers of Paradise.

His heart shall expand with knowledge, wide as eternity; and his mind shall comprehend the vast creations of his God, and His eternal purpose of redemption, glory, and exaltation, which was devised in heaven before the worlds were organized; but made manifest in these last days, for the fulness of the Gentiles, and for the exaltation of Israel.

He shall also behold his Redeemer and be filled with his presence, while the cloud of his glory shall be seen in his temple.

The city of Zion, with its sanctuary and priesthood, and the glorious fulness of the gospel, will constitute a standard which will put an end to jarring creeds and political wranglings, by uniting the republics, states, provinces, territories, nations, tribes, kindred, tongues, people, and sects of North and South America in one great and common bond of brotherhood.

While truth and knowledge shall make them free, and love cement their union. The Lord also shall be their king and their lawgiver; while wars shall cease and peace prevail for a thousand years.

Thus shall American rulers, statesmen, citizens, and savages know, "this once," that there is a God in Israel, who can utter his voice, and it shall be fulfilled.

Americans! This mighty and strange work has been commenced in your midst, and must roll on in fulfilment.

You are now invited, and earnestly intreated, to investigate it thoroughly, and to aid and participate in its accomplishment.

"and receive the ordinances of remission (Born of Water), and of sanctification (Born of Spirit or Fire), and redemption (Born of The Blood); and thus be adopted into the family of Israel, and identified in the same covenants of promise."

Unless you receive all three, you are not adopted. Just another Gentile. Like I've said in other posts, the general thinking has been reduced to Water. It's Water, Spirit, and Blood.

Moses 6:59 That by reason of transgression cometh the fall, which fall bringeth death, and inasmuch as ye were born into the world by water, and blood, and the spirit, which I have made, and so became of dust a living soul, even so ye must be born again into the kingdom of heaven, of water, and of the Spirit, and be cleansed by blood, even the blood of mine Only Begotten; that ye might be sanctified from all sin, and enjoy the words of eternal life in this world, and eternal life in the world to come, even immortal glory;
60 For by the water ye keep the commandment; by the Spirit ye are justified, and by the blood ye are sanctified;
68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen.

That's how you get adopted, becoming a Son of God. Being redeemed from the fall through Christ.

Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

Membership in the Church means nothing. Membership in the Kingdom means everything.

[paper facecaptain of 100]

Clarkkent, excellent points. It is the veils themselves that ratify our belonging to God. If you never pass through them (both the physical and spiritual), then you are as incomplete as a body that has no spirit.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

I'll help-

“The Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischeifs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. . .” (3 Ne 7:34).
Maybe that describes some LDS's but certainly not all and it certainly doesn't describe what the church teaches.
The gentiles also reject the Book of Mormon because they already "have got a bible, and there can not be any more bible".

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

We are the Gentiles

I had an interesting question asked about the "remnant" I thought worth addressing here.

There should be no confusion about the identity of the "remnant" spoken of in the Book of Mormon. It refers to the descendants of Lehi (at times further divided into those descended from Nephi, Jacob and Joseph-- all Lehi's sons). The European stock who migrated to North America and dispossessed the indigenous people are invariably referred to as "gentiles" in the Book of Mormon. Throughout it is the case that the European descendants are "gentiles" and never anything else.

You can start in 1st Nephi and go through the end. The "gentiles" are us-- the Latter-day Saints (to the extent we are primarily European-descended and not Native American).

Joseph Smith received the dedicatory prayer for the Kirtland Temple by revelation. In the prayer he refers to the church as being "identified with the gentiles." (D&C 109: 60)

It does not matter if we descend from Israel. Nor if we have actual genetic markers which would make us Ephraimites, or Levites, or of the tribe of Judah, or any of the other tribes of Israel. Unless we are Native American, we are not the "remnant" discussed in the Book of Mormon.

There are many references to early church leaders being descended from Israelite bloodlines. Even if that is the case, however, the Book of Mormon usage refers to us as "gentiles" unless descended from Lehi.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

It's very simple. Where do you fit in?

The Book of Mormon
An Account Written by the Hand of Mormon upon Plates Taken from the Plates of Nephi

Wherefore, it is an abridgment of the record of the people of Nephi, and also of the Lamanites—Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel; and also to Jew and Gentile—Written by way of commandment, and also by the spirit of prophecy and of revelation—Written and sealed up, and hid up unto the Lord, that they might not be destroyed—To come forth by the gift and power of God unto the interpretation thereof—Sealed by the hand of Moroni, and hid up unto the Lord, to come forth in due time by way of the Gentile—The interpretation thereof by the gift of God.

An abridgment taken from the Book of Ether also, which is a record of the people of Jared, who were scattered at the time the Lord confounded the language of the people, when they were building a tower to get to heaven—Which is to show unto the remnant of the house of Israel what great things the Lord hath done for their fathers; and that they may know the covenants of the Lord, that they are not cast off forever—And also to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the Eternal God, manifesting himself unto all nations—And now, if there are faults they are the mistakes of men; wherefore, condemn not the things of God, that ye may be found spotless at the judgment-seat of Christ.

Translated by Joseph Smith, Jun.

You're either:
1. Lamanite or Remnant of HOI
2. Jew
3. Gentile
4. None of the above

If members of the church are none of the above, then why in the world do we have this book? Where is that written in the book? Maybe in the sealed portion?

If you try and say that you are "House of Israel," note the intended audience is "Written to the Lamanites, who are a remnant of the house of Israel." They are "The House of Israel." Not us. But! v13

I'll help-

“The Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischeifs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. . .” (3 Ne 7:34).
Maybe that describes some LDS's but certainly not all and it certainly doesn't describe what the church teaches.
The gentiles also reject the Book of Mormon because they already "have got a bible, and there can not be any more bible".

10 And thus commandeth the Father that I should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.
11 And then will I remember my covenant which I have made unto my people, O house of Israel, and I will bring my gospel unto them.
12 And I will show unto thee, O house of Israel, that the Gentiles shall not have power over you; but I will remember my covenant unto you, O house of Israel, and ye shall come unto the knowledge of the fulness of my gospel.
13 But if the Gentiles will repent and return unto me, saith the Father, behold they shall be numbered among my people, O house of Israel.

So we have a problem. If the rest of the nation(s) are Gentiles, but that doesn't include us, then the Book of Mormon was written to someone who will never posses these words. How can you reject the FULNESS of the Gospel if you don' t have the fulness? I think most will agree that WE are the only ones with the fulness "As contained in the BOM." If we are not HOI, as Moroni makes clear in the Title Page, then once again, why do we have this book that doesn't apply to us?

1 Hearken, O ye Gentiles, and hear the words of Jesus Christ, the Son of the living God, which he hath commanded me that I should speak concerning you, for, behold he commandeth me that I should write, saying:
2 Turn, all ye Gentiles, from your wicked ways; and brepent of your evil doings, of your lyings and deceivings, and of your whoredoms, and of your secret abominations, and your idolatries, and of your murders, and your priestcrafts, and your envyings, and your strifes, and from all your wickedness and abominations, and come unto me, and be baptized in my name, that ye may receive a remission of your sins, and be filled with the Holy Ghost, that ye may be numbered with my people who are of the house of Israel.

My People = Remnant of those at Bountiful, or Remnant of the House of Israel, the primary and original audience of the Book. Compare Mormon 5 (Gentiles) with Mormon 7 (Remnant)

13 And now, the thing which our father meaneth concerning the grafting in of the natural branches through the fulness of the Gentiles, is, that in the latter days, when our seed shall have dwindled in unbelief, yea, for the space of many years, and many generations after the Messiah shall be manifested in body unto the children of men, then shall the fulness of the gospel of the Messiah come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles unto the remnant of our seed—

The fulness will come unto the Gentiles, and from the Gentiles to them. We will deliver the fulness, not any other church. What other church or people could deliver the fulness to the Remnant? Only those who have received, and not rejected the fulness, born of water, spirit, and blood. They must believe the book themselves. They won't be under condemnation for vanity and unbelief, because they treated lightly the things they received. O ye fair ones, how could ye have departed from the ways of the Lord! O ye fair ones, how could ye have rejected that Jesus, who stood with open arms to receive you!

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I think Joseph Fielding Smith describes it best-

“Let us also remember that we are of the Gentiles! By this I mean that the Latter-day Saints have come to their blessings through the Gentile nations. President Brigham Young . . . said that Joseph Smith was a pure Ephraimite. This is true; yet Joseph Smith came also of a Gentile lineage. So do most members of the Church. We may boast of our lineage, and rejoice in the fact that Patriarchs have declared us to be of Ephraim, but at the same time let us not despise the Gentiles, for we are also of them. If it were not so the scriptures would not be fulfilled."

[chasecaptain of 100]

does anyone care to post exactly how the Book of Mormon explains or defines "gentiles"?

I'll help-

“The Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fullness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischeifs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations. . .” (3 Ne 7:34).
Maybe that describes some LDS's but certainly not all and it certainly doesn't describe what the church teaches.
The gentiles also reject the Book of Mormon because they already "have got a bible, and there can not be any more bible".

That quote is an unfair definition of Gentile. It is too narrow. It ignores the entire discussion of Gentiles presented in the Book of Mormon, reducing it to one verse to try to edge as many members out of that category as possible. It does define Gentiles, but it does not describe them in full. I suggest reading the Kirtland Temple dedicatory prayer and the chapters of Nephi's vision. These verses explain very nicely who the Gentiles are. General authorities have called ours' a Gentile church. As far as your assessment of the latter-day saints, I can agree, but probably not as broadly as you do. I do not think that the term Gentile applies to all LDS people, but certainly to the VAST, VAST, VAST majority. In fact, I would not be surprised if you could count the number of people who have actually been adopted into the house of Israel on one hand. I wouldn't be surprised if it was more either. However, I would be surprised if it was any appreciable percentage of the LDS population. All of this, however, does not matter. It doesn't matter if I'm a gentile, or President Monson is a gentile, or anyone on this forum is a gentile. The question to ask yourself is "Am I a gentile?" THAT question deserves all of the honest introspection you can give it. If you're not sure, you are probably a gentile, and I don't mean "sure" in the sense that you can look at what someone told you in a patriarchal blessing. I mean angels and baptisms of fire and visitations of Christ, etc. A good quote from the Millennial Star describes what I mean (pay attention to the bolded section):

“Do you think that your great sagacity and the compass of your profound, philosophical turn of mind will enable you to detect the error and delusion of these arts? Oh, man, this is a vain hope. Your mind will not be competent to detect the delusion. God Himself will allow Satan to ply your scrutinizing eye with powers and sophistications far beyond your capacity to detect. Do you say then, I will stand aloof from investigation, I will shun all acquaintance with these mysterious workings, in order that I may not be carried away with their delusive influence. Vain hope. Oh, man, you cannot be neutral. You must choose your side and put on your armor. Those that come not up to the help of the Lord in that day of battle, will be sorely cursed….The rock of revelation, by which Peter knew Jesus Christ, is the only basis upon which any man can escape the strong delusion which God will send among the nations through Satan and his mediums and coadjutors. Reader, if you live long, you will be compelled to take a side for God or for Satan. Satan was allowed to try a compulsory process upon as good a man as Job. The whirlwind and tempestuous elements, with disease and death, were put into Satan’s hand that he might compel Job to abandon his integrity. Had not Job possessed the key of revelation from God, he would have been compelled to have made peace with Satan, and forsaken the Lord…Now, reader, if you have ships of precious merchandise, floating at sea, the time is fast coming when Satan will destroy those ships, unless you bow down to his power and become a co-operator with him. And if you do bow down to him, to work wickedness and say, no eye seeth me-then God will destroy those ships and you too…Your beautiful mansion and flourishing family still have to be consecrated to God or to Satan, whichever you may choose. The controversy is begun and the war will never end till the victory is complete and universal, and there shall not be found so much as a dog to move his tongue against the Lord and the immediate revelations of His will. Your being a minister of some Church, will not serve as the least screen for you against the hot indignation of God, unless you have the law and the testimony of the true and living God made known to you personally….You cannot know God without present revelation. Did you ever think of this most solemn and essential truth, before? You may have been accustomed to pray, all your life time, and as yet you, even you, do not know God. You may have heard many thousand sermons, with a sincere desire both to remember and practice them, and yet you do not know God. But it has been decided in the court of heaven, that no man can know the Father but the Son, and he to whom the Son revealeth him. Now, has Jesus Christ ever revealed God the Father to you, dear reader? Be honest with yourself, and do not err in your answer to this most important question. However much the Son may have revealed the Father to Prophets, Patriarchs, and Apostles of old, the question still remains in full force-has he revealed him to you?” (Millennial Star 1853, from “The Coming Crisis”, David A. Dye).

Such an important question. We should answer it honestly.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I am really amazed at how confused people are about this per this thread, minus the usual suspects.

That's for darn sure

[Gideoncaptain of 100]

I am really amazed at how confused people are about this per this thread, minus the usual suspects.

That's for darn sure

I think the confusion arises for three reasons:
1. There are three distinct groups of gentiles mentioned in 3 Nephi.
2. References to the "fulness of the gospel", or similar terms, are not defined in the Book of Mormon.
3. Imposing personal beliefs on the terms. For example, the idea the Book of Mormon's only audience is the LDS church, and therefore that affects the definition of the term "gentiles". There are other examples which could be cited.

Groups of Gentiles
The three groups of gentiles are:
- Believing gentiles.
- Unbelieving gentiles.
- Nations of the gentiles.

Undefined Term
"fulness of the gospel" isn't defined in 3 Nephi, but it is defined in the D&C.

8 And gave him power from on high, by the means which were before prepared, to translate the Book of Mormon;
9 Which contains a record of a fallen people, and the fulness of the gospel of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles and to the Jews also;
(Doctrine and Covenants 20:8–9‎)‎

5 Behold, this is wisdom in me; wherefore, marvel not, for the hour cometh that I will drink of the fruit of the vine with you on the earth, and with Moroni, whom I have sent unto you to reveal the Book of Mormon, containing the fulness of my everlasting gospel, to whom I have committed the keys of the record of the stick of Ephraim;
(Doctrine and Covenants 27:5‎)‎

And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.
(Doctrine and Covenants 42:12‎)‎


Personal Beliefs
The primary readers of the Book of Mormon are members of the church, or, in other words, the believing gentiles. However, the Book of Mormon is being sent all over the world. Many read it and join the church, but most do not, but that doesn't mean that the message in the book isn't meant for those who don't read it or don't accept it.

And this revelation unto you, and commandment, is in force from this very hour upon all the world, and the gospel is unto all who have not received it
(Doctrine and Covenants 84:75‎)‎

However, the main point is that our personal beliefs have no influence on the Lord's intent.

Another idea that was presented is that of types. "Nations of the Gentiles" fits, as is. It clearly describes our day. Trying to view it as a type results in confusion, IMO. More important is the absence of scripture identifying it as a type. If there are verses which make this clear, please correct me.

Having said all that, here is the scenario that I see in 3 Nephi, in reference to the Gentiles of the Last Days:

The gospel (Book of Mormon) is taken by the believing gentiles to the descendants of Lehi, and they also spread it throughout the nations of the gentiles. Many of the gentiles are unbelieving and reject the Book of Mormon, which contains the fulness of the gospel. One gentile nation thinks of itself above all others (USA).

After the rejection of the fulness of the gospel (Book of Mormon) by the gentiles, the Lord instructs the believing gentiles to stop preaching to the nations of the unbelieving gentiles and to then take the gospel to the house of Israel.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

here is the scenario that I see in 3 Nephi, in reference to the Gentiles of the Last Days:

The gospel (Book of Mormon) is taken by the believing gentiles to the descendants of Lehi, and they also spread it throughout the nations of the gentiles. Many of the gentiles are unbelieving and reject the Book of Mormon, which contains the fulness of the gospel. One gentile nation thinks of itself above all others (USA).

After the rejection of the fulness of the gospel (Book of Mormon) by the gentiles, the Lord instructs the believing gentiles to stop preaching to the nations of the unbelieving gentiles and to then take the gospel to the house of Israel.

Perfect!

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

Trying to determine whether members of the LDS Church are Gentile or of the House of Israel can be difficult. In essence, for a time, we will be both.

Joseph married an Egyptian. He was the only son of Jacob to do so. In essence, the House of Ephraim are the Gentiles, figurative speaking, but they are also of the House of Israel--but they are not those that are mentioned as the Lost Tribes, of when we speak of the gospel being taught to the House of Israel as a whole, this does not include Ephraim, because those of Ephraim are Gentiles. In terms of culture and heritage, this is most definitely the case.

Now, when the Time of the Gentiles are past, and the House of Israel is being established at Zion, with the tribes being called home to America first, than Jerusalem, the Gentile culture will have been destroyed by a Heathen enemy (the Beast). At this time, those who are saved of Ephraim, or the Gentiles, will take upon them the full mantle of Ephraim and will govern as a tribe and not in the manner of the Gentiles. We may even have beards again, who knows.

[chasecaptain of 100]

D&C 109:60

[General Ikecaptain of 10]

Gentile is a cultural designation. We speak a Gentile language. We are subject to laws of a Gentile nation. We watch Gentile sports events on the Sabbath. We are a warlike people. We even call ourselves the Gentile designation, Mormons, except when the naughty polygamists are on the rampage, then of course the Gentiles don't like naughty, so then we are...something else. We support a very Gentile political movement as if it were equal with the Savior's church. Two scriptures, if you please:

"They wear stiff necks and high heads; yea, and because of pride, and wickedness, and abominations, and whoredoms, they have all gone astray save it be a FEW, who are the humble followers of Christ; nevertheless, they are led, that in many instances they do err because they are taught by the precepts of men." - 2Nephi 28:15

"And there were MANY whose faith was so exceedingly strong, even before Christ came, who could not be kept from within the veil, but truly saw with their eyes the things which they had beheld with an eye of faith, and they were glad." - Ether 12:19

In previous dispensations, MANY had veil piercing faith. In the Latter Days only a FEW humble followers of Christ were foretold. Pride will do you in, humility puts you in the savior's flock. Get off your magic bloodline high horse, be humble, and then be numbered with the Lord's chosen people - Isreal. Just saying...

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

I haven't read every post, but it appears that some are unable to accept that the term 'Gentile' used by the Messiah in 3 Nephi could possibly be addressed to members of the Church.

In President Packer's address, Finding Ourselves in Lehi's Dream, he states:

We live in a time of war, that spiritual war that will never end. Moroni warned us that the secret combinations begun by Gadianton “are had among all people. …

“Wherefore, O ye Gentiles [and the term Gentile in that place in the Book of Mormon refers to us in our generation], it is wisdom in God that these things should be shown unto you, that thereby ye may repent of your sins, and suffer not that these murderous combinations shall get above you. …

“Wherefore, the Lord commandeth you, when ye shall see these things come among you that ye shall awake to a sense of your awful situation, because of this secret combination which shall be among you” (Ether 8:20, 23–24).

You who are young will see many things that will try your courage and test your faith. All of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Let me say that again: all of the mocking does not come from outside of the Church. Be careful that you do not fall into the category of mocking.

http://www.lds.org/liahona/2010/08/find ... y=gentiles

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

Joseph married an Egyptian.

By race/ descent, not necessarily so. She could even have been a relative (likely), the missing granddaughter of Jacob/Israel (Pratt has a great article on it): www.johnpratt.com/items/docs/lds/meridi ... e_ans.html .