The 9/11 Debate

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

Let me get this straight, BM... there's evidence of a controlled demolition, but since we do not have anyone in custody as suspects for planting the explosives, therefore... it could not have been a controlled demolition?

That isn't what I said. I answered one hypothetical with another hypothetical.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

Let me get this straight, BM... there's evidence of a controlled demolition, but since we do not have anyone in custody as suspects for planting the explosives, therefore... it could not have been a controlled demolition?

That isn't what I said. I answered one hypothetical with another hypothetical.

But is this ultimately what you believe? Because it seems like you've run out of arguments against the overwhelming physical evidence.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

Let me get this straight, BM... there's evidence of a controlled demolition, but since we do not have anyone in custody as suspects for planting the explosives, therefore... it could not have been a controlled demolition?

That isn't what I said. I answered one hypothetical with another hypothetical.

: But is this ultimately what you believe? Because it seems like you've run out of arguments against the overwhelming physical
evidence.

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

[durangoutcaptain of 1,000]

quote]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

As Stone Cold Steve Austin would say: "That's the bottom line".







(How I wish this were the bottom line to this thread)

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

How were the Nazi's able to pull off the holocaust, killing millions, in secrecy? It was not until years after the killings began that the truth came out. Two escaped Jewish prisoners told what was happening -- and were NOT BELIEVED, at first anyway.
What part of "SECRET combination" do you not understand?

But you say that " No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false."

So, are you saying that if the evil schemers do a good job of covering up, we must believe their story of 9/11?

Again, you said "I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished."

How about this -- perhaps 20 evil schemers do the planning and are in the know. They select nanothermite explosive since it is available in form of an adherent "paint" which is safe until it dries, we learn from papers out of Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Only the inner columns (not visible to the public) of the Towers and WTC7 are painted the nice red color, by painters -- hired from a foreign country for this "painting" job, for good measure. ( Alternatively, rods could have been attached to the inner columns by foreign crews, actually containing conventional explosives, to be ignited using "superthermite" matches. ) Then another foreign crew is brought in to install small boxes on these inner columns... These are actually radio receivers which set off the explosives in computer-timed sequence, to give the shock-and-awe appearance of skyscrapers falling in accelerated fashion.

Lawrence Livermore Federal Lab: “The sol-gel process is very amenable to dip-, spin-, and spray-coating technologies to coat surfaces. We have utilized this property to dip- coat various substrates to make sol-gel Fe2O3/Al/Viton coatings. The energetic coating dries to give a nice adherent film.” “We have prepared fine powders, pressed pellets, cast monoliths, and thin films of the hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite” [LLNL, ref 25].

“The nature of the wet nanocomposites also affords an additional degree of safety. In our hands, the wet pyrotechnic nanocomposites cannot be ignited until the drying process is complete. This property should allow the production of a large quantity of the pyrotechnics... [LLNL, ref 19]

As we already noted in our "Active Thermitic Materials" paper:

Thus, the energetic nano-composite can be sprayed or even “painted” onto surfaces, effectively forming an energetic or even explosive paint. The red chips we found in the WTC dust conform to their description of “thin films” of “hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite”. Indeed, the descriptive terms “energetic coating” and “nice adherent film” fit very well with our observations of the red-chips which survived the WTC destruction.

Note that I am not saying this IS how it WAS done, but how it could have done in part. How it was done in detail can only be answered by means of a criminal investigation including subpoenaed witnesses.

[LateOutOfBedcaptain of 100]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

How were the Nazi's able to pull off the holocaust, killing millions, in secrecy? It was not until years after the killings began that the truth came out. Two escaped Jewish prisoners told what was happening -- and were NOT BELIEVED, at first anyway.
What part of "SECRET combination" do you not understand?

But you say that " No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false."

So, are you saying that if the evil schemers do a good job of covering up, we must believe their story of 9/11?

Again, you said "I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished."

How about this -- perhaps 20 evil schemers do the planning and are in the know. They select nanothermite explosive since it is available in form of an adherent "paint" which is safe until it dries, we learn from papers out of Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Only the inner columns (not visible to the public) of the Towers and WTC7 are painted the nice red color, by painters -- hired from a foreign country for this "painting" job, for good measure. ( Alternatively, rods could have been attached to the inner columns by foreign crews, actually containing conventional explosives, to be ignited using "superthermite" matches. ) Then another foreign crew is brought in to install small boxes on these inner columns... These are actually radio receivers which set off the explosives in computer-timed sequence, to give the shock-and-awe appearance of skyscrapers falling in accelerated fashion.

Lawrence Livermore Federal Lab: “The sol-gel process is very amenable to dip-, spin-, and spray-coating technologies to coat surfaces. We have utilized this property to dip- coat various substrates to make sol-gel Fe2O3/Al/Viton coatings. The energetic coating dries to give a nice adherent film.” “We have prepared fine powders, pressed pellets, cast monoliths, and thin films of the hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite” [LLNL, ref 25].

“The nature of the wet nanocomposites also affords an additional degree of safety. In our hands, the wet pyrotechnic nanocomposites cannot be ignited until the drying process is complete. This property should allow the production of a large quantity of the pyrotechnics... [LLNL, ref 19]

As we already noted in our "Active Thermitic Materials" paper:

Thus, the energetic nano-composite can be sprayed or even “painted” onto surfaces, effectively forming an energetic or even explosive paint. The red chips we found in the WTC dust conform to their description of “thin films” of “hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite”. Indeed, the descriptive terms “energetic coating” and “nice adherent film” fit very well with our observations of the red-chips which survived the WTC destruction.

Note that I am not saying this IS how it WAS done, but how it could have done in part. How it was done in detail can only be answered by means of a criminal investigation including subpoenaed witnesses.

Well said Dr. Jones! Great way to point out at exactly how the government operates with its Top Secret programs. Ever heard the term SCI? Special Compartmentalized Information? They break everything down into compartments so the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing, so a big picture can't be seen by anyone working at the compartmentalized level. I totally can see how they could use different crews painting/installing devices thinking it's all part of some major reconstruction project, when really it was setting up these explosives. Thanks for that info Dr. Jones!

-- Geoff

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Those installing the thermite would not even have to know what they were doing. That is the advantage of pulling an inside job. You can control who or what enters the buildings.

Blue needs to get past the it's impossible point and start using his imagination on how could it be done. We know thermite was found in the debris. That point is not in question but because Blue cannot imagine clever, deceitful people, using cunning and stealth, he puts it in the impossible catagory. Think of smart people doing this, not stupid ones.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

: How were the Nazi's able to pull off the holocaust, killing millions, in secrecy? It was not until years after the killings began that the truth came out. Two escaped Jewish prisoners told what was happening -- and were NOT BELIEVED, at first anyway.

The foregoing statements are not accurate. "Recent historical work suggests that the majority of Germans knew that Jews were being indiscriminately killed and persecuted. . . . . . . . Robert Gellately, an historian at Oxford University, conducted a widely respected survey of the German media before and during the war, concluding that there was 'substantial consent and active participation of large numbers of ordinary Germans' in aspects of the Holocaust and that the basics of the concentration camps, if not the extermination camps, were widely known." (Wikipedia, "Responsibility for the Holocaust")

: What part of "SECRET combination" do you not understand?

In what context?

: But you say that " No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false."

: So, are you saying that if the evil schemers do a good job of covering up, we must believe their story of 9/11?

Of course not. I'm saying that a theory must have--at a minimum--an iota of plausibility. Your CD theory does not.

: Again, you said "I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished."

: How about this -- perhaps 20 evil schemers do the planning and are in the know. They select nanothermite explosive since it is available in form of an adherent "paint" which is safe until it dries, we learn from papers out of Lawrence Livermore National Lab. Only the inner columns (not visible to the public) of the Towers and WTC7 are painted the nice red color, by painters -- hired from a foreign country for this "painting" job, for good measure. ( Alternatively, rods could have been attached to the inner columns by foreign crews, actually containing conventional explosives, to be ignited using "superthermite" matches. ) Then another foreign crew is brought in to install small boxes on these inner columns... These are actually radio receivers which set off the explosives in computer-timed sequence, to give the shock-and-awe appearance of skyscrapers falling in accelerated fashion.

Your scenario requires the involvement of large numbers of people (three different crews). After the news of the destruction of the buildings was announced, it is inevitable--a certainty--that one or more of those operatives would have come forward. Circa 11 years have passed, and no one has done so--not a single person. That simply isn't plausible.

Lawrence Livermore Federal Lab: “The sol-gel process is very amenable to dip-, spin-, and spray-coating technologies to coat surfaces. We have utilized this property to dip- coat various substrates to make sol-gel Fe2O3/Al/Viton coatings. The energetic coating dries to give a nice adherent film.” “We have prepared fine powders, pressed pellets, cast monoliths, and thin films of the hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite” [LLNL, ref 25].

“The nature of the wet nanocomposites also affords an additional degree of safety. In our hands, the wet pyrotechnic nanocomposites cannot be ignited until the drying process is complete. This property should allow the production of a large quantity of the pyrotechnics... [LLNL, ref 19]

: As we already noted in our "Active Thermitic Materials" paper: Thus, the energetic nano-composite can be sprayed or even “painted” onto surfaces, effectively forming an energetic or even explosive paint. The red chips we found in the WTC dust conform to their description of “thin films” of “hybrid inorganic/organic energetic nanocomposite”. Indeed, the descriptive terms “energetic coating” and “nice adherent film” fit very well with our observations of the red-chips which survived the WTC destruction.

: Note that I am not saying this IS how it WAS done, but how it could have done in part. How it was done in detail can only be answered by means of a criminal investigation including subpoenaed witnesses.

I'm sure the science explained in your four preceding paragraphs is accurate; however, it has minimal relevance to how the "installations" were accomplished in total secrecy, and why no one has come forward to expose what took place.

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

I saw a documentary about 9/11 where they interviewed employees at the world trade center. They reported that they came into their offices and found dust all over the floor where they worked. They were told that they were doing MAINTENANCE on the other floors and some of the dust got sucked through the duct work at night. So in the morning when they came into work the entire floor was covered in dust. They had to have a cleaning crew come and clean it up.

Logical answer to a problem. Construction or renovations in office buildings happen all the time. So the employees never thought about it again. Until boom 9/11... now they remembered that ya he had days when the entire floor was covered in dust due to some construction.

I put it to you that this construction was in fact the drilling and placing the thermite on the columns. The security on the build is suspect as well as it was controlled by insiders. So with crews looking like construction people they in fact were demolition crews.

That really is not that hard to pull off. Also, they said half the floors had no one on them at all. Placing the control center for the demo on those floors would of been super easy.

the final blow is building 7. The had a count down to blow it up. Firemen, policemen and employees at the building were all told it was going to come down.

If you can't see with your eyes or hear with your ears then there is no hope for you. These people many of them not just one or two but 20 30 firemen and policemen all have said the same thing.

You don't believe because the lie is so grand that you can not look truth in the eye. You don't like what the truth reveals. If true then we really have a huge problem on our hands don't we?

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

The same thing was said about the development of the atomic bomb too Blue - no way could it be done. And please... go enroll in and complete a physics 099 class somewhere and then return so we can begin to discuss this issue with your eyes opened and a new understanding of how gravity works.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Blue's attitude leaves the Gadiantions free to to anything, no matter how outragerous or implausible. No one will believe it. Even the witnesses that speak out are not believed. Only the Gadiantions themselves are to be believed.

[LateOutOfBedcaptain of 100]

I believe it would have been impossible for a crew to install bombs on dozens/hundreds of columns in three huge buildings and to do so in utter secrecy. No one on the conspiracy side has been able to explain how that could be accomplished. Consequently, I believe the CD theory is false.

The same thing was said about the development of the atomic bomb too Blue - no way could it be done. And please... go enroll in and complete a physics 099 class somewhere and then return so we can begin to discuss this issue with your eyes opened and a new understanding of how gravity works.

Pfft.. Gravity? We live in the electrical universe!!!

-- Geoff

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

I've noticed people tend to not notice what's directly in front of them unless they have some reason to. Especially if it's something mundane that they wouldn't be surprised to see. Like construction in buildings the size of WTCs 1, 2, and 7. It's highly likely workmen could've been installing the explosives in plain sight and nobody would've so much as asked them what they were doing. But instead they were working in less frequented areas, in the basement and near the central cores.

BM's argument is silly. The question isn't why somebody didn't notice them, but why anyone would.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

BlueMoon5, I'm finding it extremely difficult to believe that you forgot about this:

9/11 Security
Courtesy of Marvin Bush


Marvin P. Bush, the president’s younger brother, was a principal in a company called Securacom that provided security for the World Trade Center, United Airlines, and Dulles International Airport. The company, Burns noted, was backed by KuwAm, a Kuwaiti-American investment firm on whose board Marvin Burns also served. [Utne]

According to its present CEO, Barry McDaniel, the company had an ongoing contract to handle security at the World Trade Center "up to the day the buildings fell down."

The company lists as government clients "the U.S. Army, U.S. Navy, U.S Air force, and the Department of Justice," in projects that "often require state-of-the-art security solutions for classified or high-risk government sites."

Stratesec (Securacom) differs from other security companies which separate the function of consultant from that of service provider. The company defines itself as a "single-source" provider of "end-to-end" security services, including everything from diagnosis of existing systems to hiring subcontractors to installing video and electronic equipment. It also provides armored vehicles and security guards.

The Dulles Internation contract is another matter. Dulles is regarded as "absolutely a sensitive airport," according to security consultant Wayne Black, head of a Florida-based security firm, due to its location, size, and the number of international carriers it serves.

Black has not heard of Stratesec, but responds that for one company to handle security for both airports and airlines is somewhat unusual. It is also delicate for a security firm serving international facilities to be so interlinked with a foreign-owned company: "Somebody knew somebody," he suggested, or the contract would have been more closely scrutinized.

As Black points out, "when you [a company] have a security contract, you know the inner workings of everything." And if another company is linked with the security company, then "What's on your computer is on their computer." [American Reporter]

A heightened WTC security alert was lifted on 9/6/2001...

The World Trade Center was destroyed just days after a heightened security alert was lifted at the landmark 110-story towers, security personnel said yesterday [September 11]. Daria Coard, 37, a guard at Tower One, said the security detail had been working 12-hour shifts for the past two weeks because of numerous phone threats. But on Thursday [September 6], bomb-sniffing dogs were abruptly removed. [NY Newsday]

...there was a power down in WTC 2 the weekend before 9/11...

On the weekend of 9/8, 9/9 there was a 'power down' condition in WTC tower 2, the south tower. This power down condition meant there was no electrical supply for approx 36 hrs from floor 50 up... "Of course without power there were no security cameras, no security locks on doors and many, many 'engineers' coming in and out of the tower." [WingTV]

...Bush's cousin had a fortunate change of venue for a September 11 business conference...

President Bush's cousin should have been in the World Trade Centre when it was attacked. Jim Pierce, managing director of AON Corporations, had arranged a business conference on the 105th floor of the South Tower where its New York offices were based. But his group was too large so they decided to move across the street to the Millennium Hotel. [Annova]

...and it just so happens that Marvin Bush was in New York on 9/11.

Both WTC 6 and WTC 7 were evacuated within minutes of Flight 11 striking WTC 1, but this did not happen in the twin towers. There were no evacuation announcements in WTC 1 following the plane strike, and workers were encouraged to stay in their building...

Dan Baumbach - WTC 1 Survivor:

Dan Baumbach, 24, a software engineer from Merrick, was stunned to find that building officials in One World Trade Center were telling workers not to evacuate even after the first jet struck. "You can try it, but it's at your own risk," he quoted one official as telling a group of 100 people on the 75th floor. Many chose to follow that advice; Baumbach continued his descent from the 80th floor and survived, but only after braving the debris that fell when the neighboring tower collapsed. "The reason we got out was because we didn't listen," he said. [Newsday]

"In the neighboring south tower people were also evacuating, but an announcement over the PA system tells them their building is secure and they can return to their desks..."
WMV video download (43kB)


Stanley Praimnath - WTC 2 Survivor:

'If they had continued on and exited the building, all of their lives would have been spared. As it was, that's not the way it happened. "As soon as we reached the concourse level, the security guard stopped us and said, 'Where are you going?' Stanley explained about seeing the fire in Tower One. According to Stanley, the guard said, "Oh, that was just an accident. Two World Trade is secured. Go back to your office."' [Mercola]


"Today it is still a mystery why no-one in the towers reached the roof..."

WMV video download (145kB)

The solution to the mystery is simple - the roof doors were locked, as were many stairwell doors.

WTC surveillance tapes feared missing
Imagine my surprise...

Surveillance tapes and maintenance logs are among the missing evidence as investigators try to figure out why the World Trade Center collapsed, federal officials said Monday. ... The lost records probably contain vital information that could help answer questions, Sunder said. Investigators are trying to locate copies of many destroyed documents from the building's owners and city agencies. [FortWayne.com]

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I.W., he conveniently forgets a LOT that has been presented to him on the subject. Imagine a math teacher explaining to a student that 2+2 = 4 and having to repeat it dozens of times while the student still refuses to believe it - that's where we're at with Blue.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

I saw a documentary about 9/11 where they interviewed employees at the world trade center. They reported that they came into their offices and found dust all over the floor where they worked. They were told that they were doing MAINTENANCE on the other floors and some of the dust got sucked through the duct work at night. So in the morning when they came into work the entire floor was covered in dust. They had to have a cleaning crew come and clean it up.

How do you know what they were told was anything other than the truth? Answer: You don't.

: Logical answer to a problem. Construction or renovations in office buildings happen all the time. So the employees never thought about it again. Until boom 9/11... now they remembered that ya he had days when the entire floor was covered in dust due to some construction.

Indeed, construction will tend to create a lot of dust.

: I put it to you that this construction was in fact the drilling and placing the thermite on the columns. The security on the build is suspect as well as it was controlled by insiders. So with crews looking like construction people they in fact were demolition crews.

Hmmm. . .drilling into steel columns creates metal filings--not dust.

: That really is not that hard to pull off. Also, they said half the floors had no one on them at all. Placing the control center for the demo on those floors would of been super easy.

That's a possibility.

: the final blow is building 7. The had a count down to blow it up. Firemen, policemen and employees at the building were all told it was going to come down.

I have covered WTC-7 in detail in previous posts. It was obvious it was going to come down because it had a huge hole in one side (caused by flaming debris from one of the towers), and it was ravaged by fire for 6-7 hours.

: If you can't see with your eyes or hear with your ears then there is no hope for you. These people many of them not just one or two but 20 30 firemen and policemen all have said the same thing.

You would do well to read eyewitness accounts by scores of firemen, as well as the NYC Fire Chief, to gain an accurate perspective of what transpired. I have provided those accounts in my previous posts.

: You don't believe because the lie is so grand that you can not look truth in the eye. You don't like what the truth reveals. If true then we really have a huge problem on our hands don't we?

Yes, if true, which it isn't.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

BlueMoon: "Your scenario requires the involvement of large numbers of people (three different crews). After the news of the destruction of the buildings was announced, it is inevitable--a certainty--that one or more of those operatives would have come forward."

Again, these are just PAINTERs in the proposed scenario -- no one told them the paint would become explosive when it dried! and foreign painters brought in at that. Very clever, of course. -- But -- Why do you call them "operatives" instead of uninformed painters? And the three or four (NOT "large numbers") who installed the radios -- they would not have been told that these were DETONATORS; just temperature monitors (for example).

Two smallish crews would suffice -- painters, then temperature-monitor installers; both foreign and small crews.

Wait -- are you saying that some foreign painter brought in to paint interior columns some months (probably) before 9/11 is going to "come forward" and say "I painted inside the WTC -- therefore there is something very suspicious here"? Or -- "I put some temperature monitors inside the buidling"? Who would believe this was unusual or dangerous? Indeed, why would they think this was suspicious, to paint inside the WTC and install temp monitors?

You seem again to be missing the point, Blue. No one told these painters this paint would become explosive when thoroughly dried, or that they were installing detonators. You seem to miss the point, over and over again like you have some kind of blinders on.

BUT -- please explain yourself this time!

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I don't think Blue is capable of explaining anything with regard to 9/11. I've never seen such ignorance and flagrant disregard for facts, evidence and truths about a subject... by anyone... ever.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

I don't think Blue is capable of explaining anything with regard to 9/11. I've never seen such ignorance and flagrant disregard for facts, evidence and truths about a subject... by anyone... ever.

Yawn (rubs eyes). . . yet another personal attack.

You know, don't you Flagg, what Mark Twain said about blushing? Humans are the only creatures that blush--and need to.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I don't think Blue is capable of explaining anything with regard to 9/11. I've never seen such ignorance and flagrant disregard for facts, evidence and truths about a subject... by anyone... ever.

Yawn (rubs eyes). . . yet another personal attack.

You know, don't you Flagg, what Mark Twain said about blushing? Humans are the only creatures that blush--and need to.

It certainly applies to you with regard to this subject.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

BlueMoon: "Your scenario requires the involvement of large numbers of people (three different crews). After the news of the destruction of the buildings was announced, it is inevitable--a certainty--that one or more of those operatives would have come forward."

: Again, these are just PAINTERs in the proposed scenario -- no one told them the paint would become explosive when it dried! and foreign painters brought in at that. Very clever, of course. -- But -- Why do you call them "operatives" instead of uninformed painters?

Operative (noun): [first definition]: "A skilled person engaged in an occupation or profession; esp: a skilled or semiskilled employee in industry (as in a mill or factory." (Webster's Third New International Dictionary Unabridged, p. 1,581) Yes, there is a second definition: "a secret agent; private detective." You obviously prefer the second definition; nevertheless, my usage is still correct; the "painters" were functioning as secret agents by whoever hired them.

: And the three or four (NOT "large numbers") who installed the radios -- they would not have been told that these were DETONATORS; just temperature monitors (for example).

: Two smallish crews would suffice -- painters, then temperature-monitor installers; both foreign and small crews.

For three very large buildings, involving dozens/hundreds of columns? I don't think so.

: Wait -- are you saying that some foreign painter brought in to paint interior columns some months (probably) before 9/11 is going to "come forward" and say "I painted inside the WTC -- therefore there is something very suspicious here"? Or -- "I put some temperature monitors inside the buidling"? Who would believe this was unusual or dangerous? Indeed, why would they think this was suspicious, to paint inside the WTC and install temp monitors?

That isn't what I said or even implied. I said after the destruction of the buildings; and I implied that after your conspiracy theory became public knowledge (including knowledge that the bombs could have been applied by painting them onto the columns), one or two or three (who knows for certain?) "painters" may have realized they had been used to facilitate a horrendous crime. Guilt-stricken as they would understandably be, it is entirely logical to assume that some would come forward.

: You seem again to be missing the point, Blue. No one told these painters this paint would become explosive when thoroughly dried, or that they were installing detonators.

That is precisely my point. They were duped into believing they were doing a paint job, when--in fact--(if they swallow your CD theory)--they were facilitating the murders of 3,000+ people and the massive destruction of the WTC. I know you wouldn't like to have that on your conscience.

: You seem to miss the point, over and over again like you have some kind of blinders on.

I confess that I enjoyed reading your scenario (even though I'm not a fan of the fantasy genre).

: BUT -- please explain yourself this time!

Already have.

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Look at how many secrets the mafia were able to keep for so long. They didn't have the benefit of media ownership and government control. They were able to operate a large conspiracy for many years, involving many crimes that were known to many. The idea that 9/11 couldn't be pulled off without insiders spilling the beans is wrong. We already know it can be done and some people are expert in doing so. The only way the mafia was cracked was through relentless pressure from the federal government and even then much went unpunished and unrevealed. In this case there is no authority to put the pressure on the criminals.

We have also have seen secret cell terrorist organizations that are able to keep their actions secret over many decades, inspite of continued intense pursuit of the government. The IRA would serve as an example of this. They have managed to keep operating over many decades right under the nose of one of the most sophisticated police organizations in the world. Imagine what they could acomplish with press ownership and control of police, courts and government. With such power none of their secrets would ever be exposed.

BLUE, YOUR CLAIM THAT IT COULDN'T BE KEPT SECRET DOESN'T HOLD UP.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Those installing the thermite would not even have to know what they were doing. That is the advantage of pulling an inside job. You can control who or what enters the buildings.

Blue needs to get past the it's impossible point and start using his imagination on how could it be done. We know thermite was found in the debris. That point is not in question but because Blue cannot imagine clever, deceitful people, using cunning and stealth, he puts it in the impossible catagory. Think of smart people doing this, not stupid ones.

Thomas, You really believe that? I've heard about this but don't know what to think?

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Those installing the thermite would not even have to know what they were doing. That is the advantage of pulling an inside job. You can control who or what enters the buildings.

Blue needs to get past the it's impossible point and start using his imagination on how could it be done. We know thermite was found in the debris. That point is not in question but because Blue cannot imagine clever, deceitful people, using cunning and stealth, he puts it in the impossible catagory. Think of smart people doing this, not stupid ones.

Thomas, You really believe that? I've heard about this but don't know what to think?

Look up the other thread on 9/11, 90 some pages. There is overwhelming evidence pointing to an inside job, motivated by greed and world government domination. The begining of the end, of this country. The more you look, the more you can't believe the offical version. That combined with warnings from prophets and scripture paint the true picture.

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Spot on, Thomas.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Look at how many secrets the mafia were able to keep for so long. They didn't have the benefit of media ownership and government control. They were able to operate a large conspiracy for many years, involving many crimes that were known to many. The idea that 9/11 couldn't be pulled off without insiders spilling the beans is wrong. We already know it can be done and some people are expert in doing so. The only way the mafia was cracked was through relentless pressure from the federal government and even then much went unpunished and unrevealed. In this case there is no authority to put the pressure on the criminals.

We have also have seen secret cell terrorist organizations that are able to keep their actions secret over many decades, inspite of continued intense pursuit of the government. The IRA would serve as an example of this. They have managed to keep operating over many decades right under the nose of one of the most sophisticated police organizations in the world. Imagine what they could acomplish with press ownership and control of police, courts and government. With such power none of their secrets would ever be exposed.

BLUE, YOUR CLAIM THAT IT COULDN'T BE KEPT SECRET DOESN'T HOLD UP.

Well said, Thomas. We also see in the Book of Helaman, Gadiantons in "sole management of the government" and doing well in keeping their actions secret - until the "awful situation" was exposed to the people by Nephi. As the people woke up in increasing numbers, they finally took action. It's all there in the Book of Mormon.

[BlueMoon5captain of 1,000]

Look at how many secrets the mafia were able to keep for so long. They didn't have the benefit of media ownership and government control. They were able to operate a large conspiracy for many years, involving many crimes that were known to many.

If those "many crimes". . ."were known to many," the mafia didn't excel at keeping secrets, did it?

: "The only way the mafia was cracked was through relentless pressure from the federal government . . . .

Why did the federal government apply "relentless pressure" on the mafia? Well, obviously, the mafia's criminal activites were no secret.
You contradict yourself.

: We have also have seen secret cell terrorist organizations that are able to keep their actions secret over many decades, inspite of continued intense pursuit of the government.

Obviously, those "secret terrorist organizations" were not "able to keep their actions secret over many decades" because the government was in "intense pursuit" of them. Again, you contradict yourself.

: The IRA would serve as an example of this. They have managed to keep operating over many decades right under the nose of one of the most sophisticated police organizations in the world. Imagine what they could acomplish with press ownership and control of police, courts and government. With such power none of their secrets would ever be exposed.

I infer that you seriously believe the U.S. government owns the press; and controls the police, courts, and government. Astonishing.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

If I may pipe up here, I'll suggest this: since it appears that no one watched the video I posted (an excellent one by the way, very informative), I think it a good idea for me to ask something. If Blue doesn't believe the towers coming down by explosives is an inside job, then lets ask him to watch the video and determine if the planes hitting the towers wasn't an act allowed to happen and then our own government pretending to be surprised by it.

1 Osama Bin Laden, even though we were lead to believe the US was going after him, was allowed several times to escape from hideouts he was in. It was done intentionally. [In the video]

2 No planes were sent from NORAD to bring down the rest of the airliners in order to keep further targets from being hit. Intentionally. [In the video]

3 How is it that our Government knew about the attacks way before the actual event? Their lack of defending us from attack was done intentionally. [In the video]

4 Since this is the case then why wouldn't it be feasible to believe that explosives couldn't have been used to bring down the towers? The planes were allowed to hit the towers and the explosives were used to finish the job. The American people were told lies in an attempt to lead us to believe it was an act of war.

It all happened as an excuse for the US to go after terrorists, the same terrorists that were allowed to attack us in the first place.

Now it is easy to say the 2+2 =4, but let's find out from Blue why it couldn't. In retrospect, with all the evidence, how and why is it impossible for the towers to have come down the way they did, especially since the terrorists were allowed to crash into them in the first place? [In the video]

How could someone from the near ground level stories have their skin hanging off when the planes hit as high up as they did. How can the bomb blasts be explained that were heard from so many nearby fireman and others.

Perhaps there is someone that can articulate these events much better than I but this is what I get out of it all. Lies and Deceit by our government.

[Thinkercaptain of 100]

Why was our country attacked on September 11, 2001?
These "terrorists" were ticked at us... WHY?
Could it be a similar reason why we were ticked at England and when we fought back were called terrorists?
US retaliated by attacking Afghanistan... & while they were at it, found an excuse to attack Iraq too... WHY?

Maybe, US backed oil company officials made deals with Saudi Arabia and thought they could do the same with Iraq and didn't care that Saddam Hussein was a pathological mass murderer - what they (ie Bush family & other government involved with oil Corporations) wanted was oil. But Hussein wouldn't go along, so CIA jumped in, which again didn't work, so then American troops were sent in. (This has happened before.)
Why were our troops in Iraq for so long - wasting Iraqi and American lives, and American tax dollars?

Why, in Dec. 20, 1989 did Pres. Bush (Sr.) attack Panama with an airborne assault after Panama's Pres. Noriega refused to give the US back the PANAMA's canal? Why would our "democratic" government so obviously violate international law in this way? Why did the US take Pres. Noriega to our land, as a prisoner of war?

Why was Robert McNamara president of Ford Motor Co., then JFK's secretary of defense, then president of the World Bank? Smell conflict of interest?
Time Magazine touched on the surface of some answers to these questions with this article, "United States Gives Bechtel and Major Contract in Rebuilding Iraq"..."The Iraqis will then work with the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund, institutions with the United States enjoys wide influence, to reshape the country."

Why, as I was listening to talk radio a few minutes ago, did I hear Newt Gingrich pledge the US to be leading producer of oil?

Any source you get will be somewhat biased.
But common sense can go a long way.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

I infer that you seriously believe the U.S. government owns the press; and controls the police, courts, and government. Astonishing.

Not all. Just enough to get what they want accomplished without any pressure. If the gadiantons were able to gain the sole management of government in the past, why can't they do it now?


Please follow Ezra Taft Benson's admonition to read "None Dare Call it Conspiracy" (yes this was in General Conference) and you will gain much insight. I'd like to hear your thoughts on the book after you've read it. I won't hold my breath, though.



Also, watch this excellent documentary called The Century of the Self about propaganda and you will see how the media has been able to accomplish the will of the gadiantons.






P.S. It seems you purposefully ignored my post to you about the security regarding the WTC.