Wolves and Sheep

[kingbmmcaptain of 100]

I love how this thread is actually being debated...better yet, I love how certain people are trying to seperate Christ from his Church.
Sometimes I really can't believe what happens on this forum.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Jason, Sorry I haven't gotten around to it, but is nice to have you back again. I hate it when you take breaks. If it is your wife's desire, please let her know we appreciate her sacrifice.

Thank you....the breaks are for me. I get frustrated at times wondering if my efforts are value added or not. Many times it seems that all we do on here is fight and bicker amongst ourselves - myself included. But then I receive some information from somebody else that hits me hard and I'm able to grasp a concept/idea in a new perspective and feel enlightened for the experience....and am grateful for the participation. As well as a place to vent and share research in a world that isn't too keen on my research....as well as running across items that compel me to do research that also changes my perspective and what I hope is enlightening.

Still need to do a deep dive on Semp's electrical universe material that looks extremely fascinating....

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Just so we're all clear, this website and message board is representative of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints and not a reorganized or fundamentalist splinter group, correct? I've been getting odd vibes ever since I joined.

LDSFreedomForum.com does not necessarily agree with all content on this forum. This is not an official site of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The views and content on this site reflect only the opinions and teachings of the authors of the respective content contained herein.

there are at least 7 (if the poll is correct) people who are polygamist on this forum, and I know more than that are fundamentalist at least in part. I am not aware of any from the former reorganized LDS church.

Shadow is a church spy.
Mark is a cia plant.
Jason is a ex marine, so he is a bit slow on some things, but has great dress standards.
Aussie is a uni-bomber in training.

so we have lots of diversity here (aka, diffrent vibes) and the main feel of the board changes based on who shouts the loudest and most.

Coming from an ex-squid I'll take that as a complement...LOL

fyi - there is no such thing as an "ex-marine" or a "former marine"....the Commandant said so -
http://www.marines.mil/unit/hqmc/cmc/Do ... ipt%29.pdf

A Marine is a Marine. I set the policy two weeks ago – there’s no such thing as a former Marine. You’re a Marine, just in a different uniform and you’re in a different phase of your life. But you’ll always be a Marine because you went to Parris Island, San Diego or the hills of Quantico.

- Commandant, General James F. Amos (via The Seahorse)

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

And thus commandeth the Father that I (Jesus Christ) should say unto you: At that day when the Gentiles shall sin against my gospel, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, and shall be lifted up in the pride of their hearts above all nations, and above all the people of the whole earth, and shall be filled with all manner of lyings, and of deceits, and of mischiefs, and all manner of hypocrisy, and murders, and priestcrafts, and whoredoms, and of secret abominations; and if they shall do all those things, and shall reject the fulness of my gospel, behold, saith the Father, I will bring the fulness of my gospel from among them.

somehow now means that you are by default a wolf.

I just wanted to add a few scriptures that came just before this one that Brent quoted, so we can be sure of exaclty who the gentiles are, that the Lord is speaking of. Because I know we all like to blame this behavior and therefore this scripture with all of its condemnations, on all the non-members.

6 And blessed are the Gentiles, because of their belief in me, in and of the Holy Ghost, which witnesses unto them of me and of the Father.

7 Behold, because of their belief in me, saith the Father, and because of the unbelief of you, O house of Israel, in the latter day shall the truth come unto the Gentiles, that the fulness of these things shall be made known unto them.

So clearly the Lord calls those who would have the knowledge of the fulness of the gospel in the last days: gentiles. Not the house of Israel. So Mormons fall under the name gentile, not house of Israel, in the BofM. Here is another scripture a few chapters on where the Savior again makes it clear that members of the LDS church are called gentiles.

5 Therefore, when these works and the works(contained in the BofM) which shall be wrought among you(the Nephites) hereafter shall come forth from the Gentiles(here we are again, bringing the BofM to the remnant), unto your seed which shall dwindle in unbelief because of iniquity;

The BofM talks many times about the gentiles "fighting against Zion". Nephi established right from the beginning in the BofM, WHO the gentiles are, the Lord in 3 Nephi was consistant with that definition. So we mormons are part of the gentiles, actually we are the fuller definition of the gentiles, as the we are the only ones who actualy read the BofM and thereby benefit from the warnings. If this is true then the vast majority of Mormons will:

-do(or at least support) all of the things listed in the scripture above by Brent
-fight against Zion
-fail to repent
-and receive the full condemnation placed upon us by the BofM.

I think for many of us it is not about whether the CHURCH has failed or if the CHURCH is still true, etc. It is about what the scriptures actually say about us mormons. There are warnings that have life or death consequences and it is worth at least making sure we understand what exactly we need to repent of.

[Glenncaptain of 100]

While living in the Bible belt I recall a woman who was a convert. She enjoyed the sincere friendship and association at her past church, but knew she had to follow her heart and join the LDS church. She lost the association of many friends and family because of her decision to join the LDS church. This woman struggled because the LDS members showed little interest in fellow-shipping her; they just didn't appreciate the magnitude of her sacrifice and her subsequent needs for fellowship. Her home teachers were nonexistent to say the least. She expressed a point that has stuck with me ever since. She challenged the notion that LDS members were easily excused from their imperfections/neglect, because the Church was "perfect" (all is well). She said that Church can only rise as high as it members, and at the end of the day the Church and its members are the same. I recognized the truth in her statement.

Mortal Men/Women = very imperfect
The Church (As administered by Mortals) = still imperfect
The Gospel of Jesus Christ = Perfect

We as individuals, and as a Church are a work in progress. Jesus Christ is waiting for us to come unto him. Only then can the Lord join us in the flesh and dwell among us both as individuals, and as a Church. We get too caught up over Brigham Young worship, polygamy worship, criticism worship and a myriad of other pet issues that we forget who we are really seeking.

As for "wolves and sheep" I have learned from real experience to be wary of those claiming to defend the flock from wolves; sometimes a wolf simply doesn't like competition for a good meal. As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

[linj2flycaptain of 1,000]

I have some questions....all my life I've heard this:

"The <________> will never be taken from the earth again."

Fill in the blank with 'kingdom,' 'church,' priesthood,' etc. "There will not be another apostacy..."

So...what's true and what's not....all? some? I'd like some clarification.

Many have noted on the forum that the Nephite govt broke down into tribes before Christ's coming. I noticed that before this happened, the Church broke apart:

3 Ne 6:14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.

And we have Joseph Smith telling us about the key that will never rust: to follow the majority of the twelve. Other brethren have also warned us about wolves. And, as BrentL has demonstrated, there is a historical pattern for wolves in the inner circle, so to speak. (Actually beginning with Lucifer in the Pre-existence, and continuing with Cain on down; all were in the 'inner circle.') We are warned over and over again to prepare and beware of deception...

So what is it exactly that will never again be taken from the earth again?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

Keep working!

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

[Glenncaptain of 100]

As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

Keep working!

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Proverbs 18:12
12 Before destruction the heart of man is haughty, and before honour is humility.

Doctrine and Covenants 19:30
30 And thou shalt do it with all humility, trusting in me, reviling not against revilers.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

I have some questions....all my life I've heard this:

"The <________> will never be taken from the earth again."

Fill in the blank with 'kingdom,' 'church,' priesthood,' etc. "There will not be another apostacy..."

So...what's true and what's not....all? some? I'd like some clarification.

Many have noted on the forum that the Nephite govt broke down into tribes before Christ's coming. I noticed that before this happened, the Church broke apart:

3 Ne 6:14 And thus there became a great inequality in all the land, insomuch that the church began to be broken up; yea, insomuch that in the thirtieth year the church was broken up in all the land save it were among a few of the Lamanites who were converted unto the true faith; and they would not depart from it, for they were firm, and steadfast, and immovable, willing with all diligence to keep the commandments of the Lord.

And we have Joseph Smith telling us about the key that will never rust: to follow the majority of the twelve. Other brethren have also warned us about wolves. And, as BrentL has demonstrated, there is a historical pattern for wolves in the inner circle, so to speak. (Actually beginning with Lucifer in the Pre-existence, and continuing with Cain on down; all were in the 'inner circle.') We are warned over and over again to prepare and beware of deception...

So what is it exactly that will never again be taken from the earth again?

Here are a few scriptures in D&C:

3 Verily I say unto you, the keys of this kingdom shall never be taken from you, while thou art in the world, neither in the world to come;

The Lord is speaking to J.S. here, telling him he will never lose the keys of the kingdom.

44 Daniel, who foresaw and foretold the establishment of the kingdom of God in the latter days, never again to be destroyed nor given to other people;

So I guess the thing we need to know is: Is the LDS church and the kingdom of God the same thing?
In JST Revelations we are told that the woman is the church of God and the child she brings forth is the the kingdom of God. Daniel also tells us that the kingdom of God will crush all other nations and kingdoms. My personal thoughts are that the church is part of the kingdom of God. But the kingdom of God is much more than than the church.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

While living in the Bible belt I recall a woman who was a convert. She enjoyed the sincere friendship and association at her past church, but knew she had to follow her heart and join the LDS church. She lost the association of many friends and family because of her decision to join the LDS church. This woman struggled because the LDS members showed little interest in fellow-shipping her; they just didn't appreciate the magnitude of her sacrifice and her subsequent needs for fellowship. Her home teachers were nonexistent to say the least. She expressed a point that has stuck with me ever since. She challenged the notion that LDS members were easily excused from their imperfections/neglect, because the Church was "perfect" (all is well). She said that Church can only rise as high as it members, and at the end of the day the Church and its members are the same. I recognized the truth in her statement.

Mortal Men/Women = very imperfect
The Church (As administered by Mortals) = still imperfect
The Gospel of Jesus Christ = Perfect

We as individuals, and as a Church are a work in progress. Jesus Christ is waiting for us to come unto him. Only then can the Lord join us in the flesh and dwell among us both as individuals, and as a Church. We get too caught up over Brigham Young worship, polygamy worship, criticism worship and a myriad of other pet issues that we forget who we are really seeking.

As for "wolves and sheep" I have learned from real experience to be wary of those claiming to defend the flock from wolves; sometimes a wolf simply doesn't like competition for a good meal. As for me, I do not view myself as a wolf or a sheep; I’m just a free thinker and a work in progress.

I agree with you Glenn.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

So it's pride that keeps you from becoming one of the Lord's sheep, eh Glenn
At least you know, and as GI Joe always says, knowing is half the battle!

[Glenncaptain of 100]

So it's pride that keeps you from becoming one of the Lord's sheep, eh Glenn
At least you know, and as GI Joe always says, knowing is half the battle!

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

The Saints are struggling with a number of challenges: materialism, lack of dedication, doctrinal disputes etc. However, I have come to realize that our greatest weakness as Saints is our Arrogance and Pride; none of us are immune to this spiritual plague. After returning to Utah I must say that I have never seen so many "experts in the faith" who shirk their callings and disregard their home teaching responsibilities etc. etc. Its pride and arrogance that will cause the Saints to destroy each other; the adversary will simply mop up after the conflict.

Some have made this forum their own tower of Rameumptom. Some of us (including myself) may have done it inadvertently. As for me...No more...The hour is late and our tribulations are near.
There are a number of you who have enriched me; I'm thankful for that. I still look forward to popping in from time to time.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

linj2fly here is some more information about the kingdom of God that might be helpful.

CITIZENSHIP IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
11 29 89

An indepth study of the Kingdom of God and citizenship in that kingdom soon reveals a complex of related requirements, institutions, structures and offices of which the church is only a portion. There are four basic questions that every person in quest of the truth must seek to answer:
1. What is the kingdom of God?
2. What are the qualifications for citizenship?
3. How is citizenship conferred?
4. What are the blessings, powers and privileges?

THE FIRST QUESTION: What is the kingdom of God?

There is no simple answer to this question and therefore no simple definition for the Kingdom of God. We must define the kingdom as it exists in various situations.

There is always some representation of the kingdom of God on the earth.
1. In the depths of apostasy it may be no more than a single author¬ized person, in which case he could be viewed as the kingdom of god on earth (TPJS 271). He's not the whole kingdom, he's only a part of it. And so it has been through most of the earth's history. Sometimes the extant part of the kingdom is only a small group of people, a remnant, or a church, but one day the stone shall roll forth to fill the entire earth as Daniel foretold (Dan 2:31 45).

2. Some say the LDS church is the kingdom of God. That statement is largely inaccurate. It is only a portion of the kingdom even though, as at present, it's all there is of the kingdom on the face of the earth. One might ask what evidence there is for this conclusion. The evidence is:

a. The book of Revelation Chapter 12 speaks of a woman that brings forth a child. In Joseph's inspired version, Rev. 12: the woman is identified as the church, and the child as the kingdom of God. Why did Joseph add these identities if not to assure us that the kingdom of God grows out of the church but is a separate entity.

b. In Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5) he makes it plain that one must be born of the water (baptism of water) and of the Spirit (baptism of fire) to enter the kingdom of God. Most people in the church do not even know what the baptism of fire is. If we do not know what it is, we have not experienced it; hence simply becoming a member of the church does not constitute citizenship in the kingdom of God. There are some who have been born again and they alone constitute the citizenry of the kingdom of God on earth.


c. When Joseph Smith implemented the fullness of the kingdom of God (which he did, but the fullness was soon lost to us) the organization was as follows:I had to take the diagram out as it would not show correctly.

The kingdom of God exists eternally and will eventually reign supreme on the earth. This is Zion. For the present however Zion is confined to the pure in heart who, having been baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, are born again and enter the kingdom of God per Jon 3:3 5. Zion, the full kingdom of God, exists even now but is only visible and tangible to those who are born again, those to whom the Kingdom is given as expressed in D&C 29:1 8, 38:7 15 & 45:1.

THE SECOND QUESTION: What are the qualifications for citizenship?

The qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God are few and rewarding within themselves. There will be temporal sorrow in the natural man, but eternal rejoicing in the spiritual being, the rightful heir and that is the reward. The Qualifications are:

• Repentance Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within us (Luk 17:21). Locked away, deep within us, is a prisoner, an exile of the kingdom of God, a rightful heir; his domain seized by a usurper, the natural man, who corrupts that domain with worldliness. From prison the rightful heir pleads with his dominion,"cast out the usurper! repent! and accept me." Repentance is the highway to the kingdom of God (III Nep 9:22). Not just to stop doing what we shouldn't and start doing what we should, but to change our minds and our desires. To love everyone and hate the world, to have no will born of the flesh but to have the mind and the will of God. Desiring his desires ourselves.


• Knowledge of God Joseph Smith once said, "If we do not God we do not know ourselves." and if we don't know ourselves we certainly don't know what we shall be nor where we're going. We may have some vague or general idea like the "Celestial beings in the Celestial Kingdom" but such vague concepts have not the power to compel us beyond our worldly penchants. When we truly understand the revel¬ations of the scriptures we will throw away the world, strip our¬selves naked of worldly "stuff", see the world as the restraining prison it really is, and hate it. We shall long for the kingdom of God and pray pleadingly, unceasingly for its advent in our lives. Consider the deep significance of the following scriptures:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. (Jon 17:3).

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is. (I Jon 3:2).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwelleth in you"? (I Cor 3:16 17).

... as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God. (II Cor 6:16).

. . . . yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples..." (D&C 93:35).

• A broken heart and contrite spirit Inwardly our feelings and our attitudes must be reconciled with the divine nature. We must be humbled in total aware of our nothingness before God (Mosi 4:2 5&11), and viewing our worthless and fallen state become broken hearted for our sins and repent. "But blessed are the poor who are pure in heart, whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite for they shall see the kingdom of God coming in power and great glory unto their deliverance. (D&C 56:17 18). This is one of the two great sacrifices required. "And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost (III Nep 9:20 also 12:19). (also II Nep 2:7 & D&C 56:18).

• Sacrifice of all earthly things The second great sacrifice required is the sacrifice of all things stipulated in "The Lectures on Faith" Lecture 6 par. 7: All material things, honors of men, desires of the flesh. If the previously mentioned sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit has been accomplished this sacrifice will be accomplished, without thought or calculation, and it will not seem to have been a sacrifice at all; for we shall hate the world and all of its trappings, its honors and its substance.

It is apparent from the above that the qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God, for the baptism of fire and for the spiritual rebirth are the same. The gate to the straight and narrow path to eternal life spoken of by Nephi (II Nep 31:13 21) is also the gate to the kingdom of God just as Jesus assured Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5).

THE THIRD QUESTION: How is membership conferred?
Citizenship in the kingdom of God is conferred by ordinances, ordination, instruction, covenants, and sealing.

• Ordinances: the second anointings administered by mortal hands in the temple (Ref. temple drama "... called up and anointed kings and queens, priests and priestesses) and the baptism of fire adminis¬tered by the Lord personally (III Nep 12:1).

• Ordination for men and women: Kings and queens, priests and priest¬esses (ref. Temple drama, Rev 5:10, TPJS p. 370, D&C 76:52 56) in the Holy Order of the Priesthood (II Nep 6:2, Alma 4:20, 5:44 & 13:6 12). This ordination is administered by the Lord personally (D&C 50:17 & 26 30, 84:38 42). See also D&C 77:11, ordination of the 144 thousand.

• Instruction: God will personally teach us and administer the oath and covenant of the priesthood (D&C 84:38 42 & 48).

• Sealing: by the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:52 53, 88:3).

THE FOURTH QUESTION: What are the blessings, powers and privileges?
For those to whom the kingdom is given there are a number of marvelous benefits to be realized:

The spiritual gifts become common (Moro 10:8 26, 84:62 76 &35:8 14)
• The truth of all things (Jon 14:26, I Jon 2:20 & 27, II Nep 32:3 5, Hel 9:41, Eth 12:21, Moro 10:25, D&C 39:6, 93:28)

• Possess all things (D&C 50:27 28, 76:55 59, 78:19 22)

• Membership in the church of the firsrborn (D&C 76:52 54, 77:11, 107:18 19)

• Zion and Zion's economy even now (D&C 64:33 36). The Lord admonish¬es us to seek the kingdom where all of our temporal needs shall be fulfilled (Mat 6:19 34 & III Nep 13:19 34). But the laborer in Zion must labor for Zion (II Nep 26:31), we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:19 24, III Nep 13:19 24.

[linj2flycaptain of 1,000]

Thanks col...do you have a link so i can look at the diagram?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

Hmm, so you tout that you're not some silly little sheep but that you're a "free thinker" (whatever that is ) then when the words of the Lord are placed before you as an FYI that say being a "sheep" is actually a good thing you call me out as being prideful? Why, because I posted a scripture that contradicted your "status"? The funny thing is you then you go on some lengthy diatribe about how the saints in Utah are lousy. I guess you find what you're looking for

I love Fridays!

[laroniuscaptain of 100]

Just as our bodies are tabernacles of our spirits and give them expression, so to is the "church" the tabernacle of God's kingdom. The church represents the physical structure or outward appearance of God's kingdom. It includes the body of officers and offices that lead and direct us, the organization of stakes, wards, branches etc, the missionary program, bishops storehouses, ward organizations (primary, YM, YW etc)... The kingdom is the spirit at work that makes it all possible and gives all of these things life. It is the perfecting process that goes on in each of our lives as we fill our callings and apply the principles of the gospel. It is living by the spirit as we move forward the Lord's work.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

Thanks col...do you have a link so i can look at the diagram?

I will get back to you with a link. It is simple really. At the top is Jesus Christ, under him is Joseph Smith(as President of the high priesthood), under Joseph is an "exculsive priesthood council probably 6 in number"(not defined well historically). Then under these three it is divided into two arms. One being the ecclesiastical arm of the kingdom with the president of the church and the quorum of the 12 apostles. The other arm being the political arm of the kingdom with a presiding councilman and the council of fifty.

[Matthew.Bcaptain of 100]

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

Hmm, so you tout that you're not some silly little sheep but that you're a "free thinker" (whatever that is ) then when the words of the Lord are placed before you as an FYI that say being a "sheep" is actually a good thing you call me out as being prideful? Why, because I posted a scripture that contradicted your "status"? The funny thing is you then you go on some lengthy diatribe about how the saints in Utah are lousy. I guess you find what you're looking for

I love Fridays!

There is no love in this comment, or in your previous comments to Glenn in this thread.

If you want to know who the real wolves are, it is those who make a mock of their brother, or exploit their weaknesses, or treat them lightly or cruelly; a wolf magnifies himself against his brother and says to his soul "bow down, that I may go over". A wolf makes a mountain out of a molehill, a big deal out of a small offense, and wrinkles smooth discussion.

Real wolves will come in all shapes and sizes and in every degree of public piety imaginable... Some wolves and shepherds say very similar things- one can only tell them apart by their fruits.

Before any of us begins pointing fingers, we need to look inward and see if we have offended our brothers or sisters today and ask their forgiveness with a sincere heart.

Wolves are those who refuse to do this. Sheep do this. There is a point in every disciple's life where they are in serious doubt as to the status of their own soul, and whether they are really the in the fold of the LORD or not. Mocking Glenn for what he's said is Satan's way of doing things, not Christ's.

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

MatthewB, thumbs up. Well said.

[kingbmmcaptain of 100]

Almost everyone (including apostate/ fundementalist LDS) is claiming to follow the Savior - yet the various controversies revolve around if the First Presidency & 12 Apostles still have authority & divine revelation to lead Christ's church; hence Stephen Robinson's comment to follow the Church, it's leaders, with a deep conviction and correct understanding of the Gospel.

Perfectly said.

[kingbmmcaptain of 100]

I can't believe what I'm reading...honestly, I'm shocked.

[kingbmmcaptain of 100]

Apostasy is apostasy...you guys can cook it up any way that you'd like, but eventually you're just going to regurgitate the same apostasy.
The greatest thing is that there are many who participate on this forum who recognize the wolves...you're not fooling anybody.
Real Defenders of the Faith can always discern the wheat from the tares.

[MrSciencecaptain of 100]

linj2fly here is some more information about the kingdom of God that might be helpful.

CITIZENSHIP IN THE KINGDOM OF GOD
11 29 89

An indepth study of the Kingdom of God and citizenship in that kingdom soon reveals a complex of related requirements, institutions, structures and offices of which the church is only a portion. There are four basic questions that every person in quest of the truth must seek to answer:
1. What is the kingdom of God?
2. What are the qualifications for citizenship?
3. How is citizenship conferred?
4. What are the blessings, powers and privileges?

THE FIRST QUESTION: What is the kingdom of God?

There is no simple answer to this question and therefore no simple definition for the Kingdom of God. We must define the kingdom as it exists in various situations.

There is always some representation of the kingdom of God on the earth.
1. In the depths of apostasy it may be no more than a single author¬ized person, in which case he could be viewed as the kingdom of god on earth (TPJS 271). He's not the whole kingdom, he's only a part of it. And so it has been through most of the earth's history. Sometimes the extant part of the kingdom is only a small group of people, a remnant, or a church, but one day the stone shall roll forth to fill the entire earth as Daniel foretold (Dan 2:31 45).

2. Some say the LDS church is the kingdom of God. That statement is largely inaccurate. It is only a portion of the kingdom even though, as at present, it's all there is of the kingdom on the face of the earth. One might ask what evidence there is for this conclusion. The evidence is:

a. The book of Revelation Chapter 12 speaks of a woman that brings forth a child. In Joseph's inspired version, Rev. 12: the woman is identified as the church, and the child as the kingdom of God. Why did Joseph add these identities if not to assure us that the kingdom of God grows out of the church but is a separate entity.

b. In Jesus's discussion with Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5) he makes it plain that one must be born of the water (baptism of water) and of the Spirit (baptism of fire) to enter the kingdom of God. Most people in the church do not even know what the baptism of fire is. If we do not know what it is, we have not experienced it; hence simply becoming a member of the church does not constitute citizenship in the kingdom of God. There are some who have been born again and they alone constitute the citizenry of the kingdom of God on earth.


c. When Joseph Smith implemented the fullness of the kingdom of God (which he did, but the fullness was soon lost to us) the organization was as follows:I had to take the diagram out as it would not show correctly.

The kingdom of God exists eternally and will eventually reign supreme on the earth. This is Zion. For the present however Zion is confined to the pure in heart who, having been baptized with fire and the Holy Ghost, are born again and enter the kingdom of God per Jon 3:3 5. Zion, the full kingdom of God, exists even now but is only visible and tangible to those who are born again, those to whom the Kingdom is given as expressed in D&C 29:1 8, 38:7 15 & 45:1.

THE SECOND QUESTION: What are the qualifications for citizenship?

The qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God are few and rewarding within themselves. There will be temporal sorrow in the natural man, but eternal rejoicing in the spiritual being, the rightful heir and that is the reward. The Qualifications are:

• Repentance Jesus taught that the kingdom of God is within us (Luk 17:21). Locked away, deep within us, is a prisoner, an exile of the kingdom of God, a rightful heir; his domain seized by a usurper, the natural man, who corrupts that domain with worldliness. From prison the rightful heir pleads with his dominion,"cast out the usurper! repent! and accept me." Repentance is the highway to the kingdom of God (III Nep 9:22). Not just to stop doing what we shouldn't and start doing what we should, but to change our minds and our desires. To love everyone and hate the world, to have no will born of the flesh but to have the mind and the will of God. Desiring his desires ourselves.


• Knowledge of God Joseph Smith once said, "If we do not God we do not know ourselves." and if we don't know ourselves we certainly don't know what we shall be nor where we're going. We may have some vague or general idea like the "Celestial beings in the Celestial Kingdom" but such vague concepts have not the power to compel us beyond our worldly penchants. When we truly understand the revel¬ations of the scriptures we will throw away the world, strip our¬selves naked of worldly "stuff", see the world as the restraining prison it really is, and hate it. We shall long for the kingdom of God and pray pleadingly, unceasingly for its advent in our lives. Consider the deep significance of the following scriptures:

And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent. (Jon 17:3).

Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, WE SHALL BE LIKE HIM; for we shall see him as he is. (I Jon 3:2).

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. (Rom 8:29)

Know ye not that ye are the temple of God and the spirit of God dwelleth in you"? (I Cor 3:16 17).

... as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God. (II Cor 6:16).

. . . . yea, man is the tabernacle of God, even temples..." (D&C 93:35).

• A broken heart and contrite spirit Inwardly our feelings and our attitudes must be reconciled with the divine nature. We must be humbled in total aware of our nothingness before God (Mosi 4:2 5&11), and viewing our worthless and fallen state become broken hearted for our sins and repent. "But blessed are the poor who are pure in heart, whose hearts are broken and whose spirits are contrite for they shall see the kingdom of God coming in power and great glory unto their deliverance. (D&C 56:17 18). This is one of the two great sacrifices required. "And ye shall offer for a sacrifice unto me a broken heart and a contrite spirit. And whoso cometh unto me with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, him will I baptize with fire and with the Holy Ghost (III Nep 9:20 also 12:19). (also II Nep 2:7 & D&C 56:18).

• Sacrifice of all earthly things The second great sacrifice required is the sacrifice of all things stipulated in "The Lectures on Faith" Lecture 6 par. 7: All material things, honors of men, desires of the flesh. If the previously mentioned sacrifice of a broken heart and contrite spirit has been accomplished this sacrifice will be accomplished, without thought or calculation, and it will not seem to have been a sacrifice at all; for we shall hate the world and all of its trappings, its honors and its substance.

It is apparent from the above that the qualifications for citizenship in the kingdom of God, for the baptism of fire and for the spiritual rebirth are the same. The gate to the straight and narrow path to eternal life spoken of by Nephi (II Nep 31:13 21) is also the gate to the kingdom of God just as Jesus assured Nicodemus (Jon 3:3 5).

THE THIRD QUESTION: How is membership conferred?
Citizenship in the kingdom of God is conferred by ordinances, ordination, instruction, covenants, and sealing.

• Ordinances: the second anointings administered by mortal hands in the temple (Ref. temple drama "... called up and anointed kings and queens, priests and priestesses) and the baptism of fire adminis¬tered by the Lord personally (III Nep 12:1).

• Ordination for men and women: Kings and queens, priests and priest¬esses (ref. Temple drama, Rev 5:10, TPJS p. 370, D&C 76:52 56) in the Holy Order of the Priesthood (II Nep 6:2, Alma 4:20, 5:44 & 13:6 12). This ordination is administered by the Lord personally (D&C 50:17 & 26 30, 84:38 42). See also D&C 77:11, ordination of the 144 thousand.

• Instruction: God will personally teach us and administer the oath and covenant of the priesthood (D&C 84:38 42 & 48).

• Sealing: by the Holy Spirit of Promise (D&C 76:52 53, 88:3).

THE FOURTH QUESTION: What are the blessings, powers and privileges?
For those to whom the kingdom is given there are a number of marvelous benefits to be realized:

The spiritual gifts become common (Moro 10:8 26, 84:62 76 &35:8 14)
• The truth of all things (Jon 14:26, I Jon 2:20 & 27, II Nep 32:3 5, Hel 9:41, Eth 12:21, Moro 10:25, D&C 39:6, 93:28)

• Possess all things (D&C 50:27 28, 76:55 59, 78:19 22)

• Membership in the church of the firsrborn (D&C 76:52 54, 77:11, 107:18 19)

• Zion and Zion's economy even now (D&C 64:33 36). The Lord admonish¬es us to seek the kingdom where all of our temporal needs shall be fulfilled (Mat 6:19 34 & III Nep 13:19 34). But the laborer in Zion must labor for Zion (II Nep 26:31), we cannot serve two masters (Mat 6:19 24, III Nep 13:19 24.

reese-could you please give the source of this quote? Thanks

[linj2flycaptain of 1,000]

Thanks col...do you have a link so i can look at the diagram?

I will get back to you with a link. It is simple really. At the top is Jesus Christ, under him is Joseph Smith(as President of the high priesthood), under Joseph is an "exculsive priesthood council probably 6 in number"(not defined well historically). Then under these three it is divided into two arms. One being the ecclesiastical arm of the kingdom with the president of the church and the quorum of the 12 apostles. The other arm being the political arm of the kingdom with a presiding councilman and the council of fifty.

Oops...im sorry i misattributed that post reese thanks for responding!

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

Some have made this forum their own tower of Rameumptom. Some of us (including myself) may have done it inadvertently.

The truth is, many of our message board postings are opportunities for all of us to pull out our little soapboxes and prove our ignorance to others. My postings in the past only proved to myself how little I knew, so I decided to stop reminding myself.

Still, the fixation here of wolves and false prophets remains high, as always. I have never understood that obsession. Of course, there used to be a poster here who posted all kinds of elaborate explanations on occult topics, and her threads always had high view counts and people were sad to see that poster go. Nevermind people (including lurkers) were constantly exposed to subjects we are better off without. Funny how that works sometimes. The most worrisome things are the things we notice the least.

I think we're all wolves and false prophets here, almost without exception. Heck, after six years in my ward my bishop still won't let me give a Sacrament talk. My wolfish grin probably clued him in from the start.

[Glenncaptain of 100]

Some have made this forum their own tower of Rameumptom. Some of us (including myself) may have done it inadvertently.

The truth is, many of our message board postings are opportunities for all of us to pull out our little soapboxes and prove our ignorance to others. My postings in the past only proved to myself how little I knew, so I decided to stop reminding myself.

Still, the fixation here of wolves and false prophets remains high, as always. I have never understood that obsession. Of course, there used to be a poster here who posted all kinds of elaborate explanations on occult topics, and her threads always had high view counts and people were sad to see that poster go. Nevermind people (including lurkers) were constantly exposed to subjects we are better off without. Funny how that works sometimes. The most worrisome things are the things we notice the least.

I think we're all wolves and false prophets here, almost without exception. Heck, after six years in my ward my bishop still won't let me give a Sacrament talk. My wolfish grin probably clued him in from the start.

So true Gruden; at times aren't we all. I have even been told that my special contact lenses do a poor job of hiding my reptilian eyes...

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

reese-could you please give the source of this quote? Thanks

Yes, it was written by a man named James Custer. He has written several books. You can find his website online. This is a essay he wrote, #28. His wife will send you his essays if you e-mail her from the website. I don't know if I agree with everything he writes, but he has a very good understanding of many things.

Gruden2.0 wrote: I think we're all wolves and false prophets here, almost without exception. Heck, after six years in my ward my bishop still won't let me give a Sacrament talk. My wolfish grin probably clued him in from the start.

Isn't this the truth Gurden. Until we know for sure our standing before God, it would do us well not to assume anything!

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

Apostasy is apostasy...you guys can cook it up any way that you'd like, but eventually you're just going to regurgitate the same apostasy.
The greatest thing is that there are many who participate on this forum who recognize the wolves...you're not fooling anybody.
Real Defenders of the Faith can always discern the wheat from the tares.

I am glad we have a quailfied judge, like you, to help us in this matter. Maybe you can assist Christ in determining who should be burned as tares.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I am painfully aware of my weaknesses, including pride. However, your inability to recognize the pride in your own words is both astonishing, yet expected.

Hmm, so you tout that you're not some silly little sheep but that you're a "free thinker" (whatever that is ) then when the words of the Lord are placed before you as an FYI that say being a "sheep" is actually a good thing you call me out as being prideful? Why, because I posted a scripture that contradicted your "status"? The funny thing is you then you go on some lengthy diatribe about how the saints in Utah are lousy. I guess you find what you're looking for

I love Fridays!

There is no love in this comment, or in your previous comments to Glenn in this thread.

If you want to know who the real wolves are, it is those who make a mock of their brother, or exploit their weaknesses, or treat them lightly or cruelly; a wolf magnifies himself against his brother and says to his soul "bow down, that I may go over". A wolf makes a mountain out of a molehill, a big deal out of a small offense, and wrinkles smooth discussion.

Real wolves will come in all shapes and sizes and in every degree of public piety imaginable... Some wolves and shepherds say very similar things- one can only tell them apart by their fruits.

Before any of us begins pointing fingers, we need to look inward and see if we have offended our brothers or sisters today and ask their forgiveness with a sincere heart.

Wolves are those who refuse to do this. Sheep do this. There is a point in every disciple's life where they are in serious doubt as to the status of their own soul, and whether they are really the in the fold of the LORD or not. Mocking Glenn for what he's said is Satan's way of doing things, not Christ's.

Well I've felt no love from Glenn either, so what? And I never pointed any fingers at Glenn nor did I call him a sheep or a wolf. Man, all this because I posted a scripture stating that being a sheep is a good thing Oh well, usually people get offended for worse things. But hey, he's free and clear to mock and point fingers at others (same as you do!) so I suppose hypocrisy is alive and well! If my response to Glenn was prideful what do you think your response to me was? Educational? I see it as prideful and extremely hypocritical which typically doesn't describe you.
The fact is Glenn posted that he wasn't a wolf or a sheep but a free thinker. I simply posted that being a "sheep" is good. His response was to say I need humbled. And I'm picking on Glenn? I see it as Glenn picking on me, but I won't cry over it.

The difference between a sheep and a wolf is their intent. A wolf recognizes the truth but leads others astray anyway, deceiving the flock. There probably are some wolves on this site but there are more deceived sheep than wolves. Most on this site are good sheep doing their best to follow the Good Shepard. None are perfect.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]