Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Fiannan
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
Would the Muslim woman in the blue dress fit in at BYU?

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/180657/LETIZIA.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Don't worry though, the USA/AL Qaeda Alliance is working on the demise of that woman and her husband.

Fiannan
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

I just want to make it clear that I am not against BYU having a code. I was offered honors at entrance back in the 1980s but chose not to go since I really did not want to have someone watching what I wore. However, it is great if someone wants to go there and conform to whatever styles are set in place by the administration.

That said, we should be careful not to assume that BYU's standards in dress make for students who think better thoughts or that these are God's code of conduct. Modesty is entirely a societal construct. Even in the Garden of Eden when we read that Eve put on fig leaves I think it is safe to assume that she still remained topless. Why would she have covered herself and Adam not?

Just remember, take a typical group of young adults having a Monday night Family Home Evening, force them into a time machine and fire them back to Salt Lake 1860 and you know full well what the reaction of the people would be. Maybe in 2150 if we were to send the same sort of group back to 2012 we would totally freak out about their attire.

natasha
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by natasha »

Once again...I really wish everyone would read the talk by Neal Maxwell entitled "Why a University in the Kingdom"...it clarifies a lot...great talk.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/10/why-a ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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shadow
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by shadow »

bobhenstra wrote:THERE IS NO PROPERTY FOR SALE HERE!

Bobby!
Only because there are no buyers!!
The town I live in had an apostolic blessing by Pres. Packer a few yrs ago that we would be protected during the last days calamities. I'll take that over gonorrhea, I mean Genola, or is it Jenola? You guys either can't spell or can't pronounce. Probably BYU grads! ;)

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

shadow wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.
=))

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bobhenstra
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by bobhenstra »

It's simple folks, Genola does not exist!

Bobby

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by A Random Phrase »

bobhenstra wrote:It's simple folks, Genola does not exist!

Bobby

"This is not the Genola you're looking for. Genola does not exist." (waves hand slowly while saying it, and everyone's eyes glaze over as they repeat, "Genola does not exist.")

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:As to your assertion you have to pay for it. That's not true. You can stop paying tithing any time you like if that is your wish. Part of paying tithing is having the faith that it is being used as the Lord intends, or if it is not.....have the charity to overlook the weaknesses or foibles of those that the Lord has called to administer his tithes.
Come on, is that really a valid choice? Shut up and sustain it with your dollars, or don't, and burn at the second coming. Those are the choices. But it's the same as other organizations, isn't it? The situation is the same as this one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 78522.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The bottom line, is the institution always wins. For the greater good. The end justifies the means. It's all the same. It's not leadership, and has nothing to do with inspiration or doing what is right: it's real name is "management", which is just a politically correct word for "damage control".

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?
Why would I need a medical reason not to have to remove my secondary sexual characteristic? I'm just glad they haven't asked the sisters to do the same. That hasn't addressed the issue. The issue is why is there a dress code / beard code / code in the first place? I've already pointed out how I think it misses the mark and treats men unfairly from the women, and ignores the way women are motivated to be with men -- which is not by showing skin, but ironically, by dressing up, and by being clean shaven.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

ChelC wrote:Even a perfectly modest woman may have an affect on you. Some of that is normal attraction, and some of that is a warped view of the human body. Sexual attraction is pretty normal for a young guy and doesn't necessarily mean anything but if you are uncomfortable about the very idea of breast feeding, for example, then you have allowed Satan to warp your mind, IMO. A girl being modest isn't going to fix that misperception of yours.
Exactly. You can be clothed head to foot and still be immodest, and you can be nearly naked but still be modest as well.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by patriotsaint »

ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?
Why would I need a medical reason not to have to remove my secondary sexual characteristic? I'm just glad they haven't asked the sisters to do the same. That hasn't addressed the issue. The issue is why is there a dress code / beard code / code in the first place? I've already pointed out how I think it misses the mark and treats men unfairly from the women, and ignores the way women are motivated to be with men -- which is not by showing skin, but ironically, by dressing up, and by being clean shaven.
I've already listed a number of possible reasons why a dress code exists at BYU. I'm not sure if those are the real reasons, but in the end it doesn't matter. The dress code isn't enforced church-wide, so those that wish to avoid can do so easily enough. I find myself in agreement with you on many other topics, but I just don't get your position on this one. It's just not that big a deal. Sounds like straining at a gnat, but swallowing a camel to me.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

patriotsaint wrote: It's just not that big a deal. Sounds like straining at a gnat, but swallowing a camel to me.
I do see your point. You're right, and I'm out on this thread.

cheers.

freedomforall
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.
Maybe it's the hypocrisy that bugs me, and the fact that I have to pay for it. You can't wear a beard, and goodbye Dr. Jones, but hey, lets welcome Mr. Dick Cheney the seasoned and blood thirsty war criminal, dressed to the nines, and clean shaved: our arms are open for you.

And it's financed, at least partly, with your sacred tithing dollars.

BYU deserves an official name lift, how about just: "Y?"
If Joseph Smith were to have founded a learning facility like BYU, he would have taught and advocated correct principles and then let every student govern themselves.

Right?

Wrong?

Correct principles may not be strongly taught at home, or once kids get out of the house they allow peers to sway them in wrong decisions, or that the young girls watch too much TV and think they need to dress and act like the scantily clad actors, therefore comprising their better judgement.

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.

Fiannan
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by Fiannan »

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.
True, but women in Joseph Smith's time also wore no bras and never shaved their legs or underarms. Does that mean we need to return to those habits in the Church today?

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:If Joseph Smith were to have founded a learning facility like BYU, he would have taught and advocated correct principles and then let every student govern themselves.

Right?

Wrong?

Correct principles may not be strongly taught at home, or once kids get out of the house they allow peers to sway them in wrong decisions, or that the young girls watch too much TV and think they need to dress and act like the scantily clad actors, therefore comprising their better judgement.

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.
Well I'm back in. I see what you are saying, and I appreciate the Amish woman. But even back in JS day with those long dresses, was adultery lost? No way, it was rampant. In essence, what I'm saying is the amount or type of clothing you are wearing has virtually nothing to do with modest you are. I know the plural marriage women swim in their dresses, while the apostle Peter likely swam with the custom of the time, which was naked. Our culture has us terrified of skin, let alone a "nipple" here and there, we gasp and run away in fear. And because of that, it all remains for sale as cheap titillation for the masses.

Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place? And now he want's us to get undressed? Are we sure about that?

Now pass the bottle of zotrax or whatever, I'm all depressed now.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

ithink wrote:Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place?
Answer...God, when he gave fig leaves to Adam and Eve. But when one thinks about it, Adam and Eve wandered around the Garden for who knows how long naked, prior to their partaking of the forbidden fruit, and God would have seen them in that naked state for all that time. So nakedness must not have been an issue until after their fall. That's when our carnal natures showed up. I mean, why else did God reduce the population down to only eight people?

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Fiannan wrote:
I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.
True, but women in Joseph Smith's time also wore no bras and never shaved their legs or underarms. Does that mean we need to return to those habits in the Church today?
Not unless we want a bouquet of hairy armpits.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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freedomfighter wrote:
ithink wrote:Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place?
Answer...God, when he gave fig leaves to Adam and Eve. But when one thinks about it, Adam and Eve wandered around the Garden for who knows how long naked, prior to their partaking of the forbidden fruit, and God would have seen them in that naked state for all that time. So nakedness must not have been an issue until after their fall. That's when our carnal natures showed up. I mean, why else did God reduce the population down to only eight people?
Right, it's a carnal thing, but sorry, but it was Satan that suggested it in the first place, and note that while Satan was there and they were naked, they weren't ashamed yet, until he suggested it.

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paper face
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by paper face »

Bravo, ithink.

I would add that the "Lord's school" should reflect the Lord's values, and the number one thing that the Lord values is autonomy. It is the first and most sacred thing that we know Jehovah stood for in the war in Heaven, and it was the other guy who was interested in control.

Most of the students are already under covenant. Why compel them take on a redundant law that has nothing to do with their salvation? It is a redundancy that patronizes large numbers of our most bright and faithful members. It also turns many into terrorists for one side of the argument or the other. Individuals who never swore, drank alcohol, vandalized, or subverted authority suddenly have impetus to do so when they arrive in Provo. Others act like the SS in their support of the code, and rat out their friends/roommates because they conflate the code with the Gospel. Either way, these reactions create a polarized environment at the school that is much more volatile than is generally understood.

I went to UVU and I had a friend at BYU who had a bad experience dealing with the HC office. He ended up delaying his repentance because his bishop was known for being a hard liner when it came to notifying the school. There are literally thousands of good kids in this situation at BYU. For many the code takes repentance away from being an "act of faith" and places it in the realm of "calculated risk". It is a very corporatized recontextualization of the issues surrounding the repentance process, and I know of many graduates that are disillusioned with the Church as a result.

Those of you who rely on the argument that "students know what they are getting into" have a point, but the argument doesn't address the questions about why the code is valuable or necessary. Wouldn't it make more sense to simply trust these young people to live up to their covenants?

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

In the 1960's when the hippies were taking over campuses nationwide, the First Presidency and Apostles wanted BYU and students to stand remarkably distinct from the rest of the world- to be a light on the hill. They still want BYU to have high standards:modesty, purity, clean cut, etc.

Even if all byu students voted away the honor codethe vhur

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Even if all byu students voted away the honor code, the church leadership would never allow it. The world knows BYU as that clean cut pure students place (jokes about stone cold sober aside), and reflects on the perception of the church. Beards since 1950's have been seen as rebellion or worldliness.

HeirofNumenor
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by HeirofNumenor »

Final thought:
The idea that there shouldn't be a standard because one may be more comitted to gospel makes as much sense as removing minimum age limits for driver's licenses because your 12 year old son is more behaved than his 7th grade friends.

katers
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by katers »

Paperface I think it is silly to blame the HC office or any bishop for a young man's decision not to come forth in repentance. Students at BYU are well informed of the risks associated with behaviors in contradiction to the honor code. To commit any act in violation and then whine when punished for it is absurd. Bishops are given stewardship and it is a call from the Lord. Bravo to that bishop for taking it seriously. If one isn't ready to own up, that is their own fault. Not that of any "hard nosed" bishop or honor code that the student signed and agreed to upon admission to BYU.

Yes, the Lord values autonomy and agency, but he has always set forth laws and commandments as well. We are given the choice whether or not to obey them and reap the blessings associated or not and reap the consequences.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by freedomforall »

Aren't there a lot of hair splitting going on here? Look, a girl can wear a nice, modest outfit and there will always be some guy that can let his imagination run wild, right? And there are guys that keep their desires/temptations under check, even if a girl wears a skirt above the knee. There are, I'm sure, some boys at BYU that secretly look at porno, or they have wild erotic imaginings at night, whatever. Their minds are corrupted and they seek anything that will give them a turn on.

Then there are those of whom strive to keep pure thoughts and are not so easily tossed to and fro. These are those that have more control over their mind, perhaps because they haven't corrupted their mind with smut.

However, It is not right for women to purposely wear provocative clothing and expect every guy to act saintly. Females should be just as saintly by being modest. In today's world, guys striving to be saintly are being tempted from all sides from, TV, movies, peers, public places and, yes, fitness facilities.

A dress code has its purpose.

And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

Post by ithink »

freedomfighter wrote:And for anyone that thinks nudity is the answer...ya, RIGHT!
Nudity is like money: it's not the nudity that's the problem, it's the inequality that makes is so wrong! :-o

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