Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:Once at the testing center I was told I had to go home and shave before being allowed to test. I had shaved that morning, but had a 5 O'clock shadow by the time I went to take my test that evening. Was I a bit annoyed? Sure, but I went and shaved.
Apparently not annoyed enough though. You should have pulled out a picture of Young, Taylor, Smith, Smith or Smith, or how about Snow, and then told them you're one of the 3 Nephites, or maybe Jesus Christ, and you just failed. At least when Christ returns we'll all be able to wear beards again. After all, didn't God put that hair on my face?

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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fiannan, ithink, :ymapplause:

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Matthew.B wrote:We young men have a hard enough time keeping our minds clean as it is in this world, and do not need to be constantly watching out in supposedly safe institutions, where young women have agreed to live a higher standard.
But that is part of the reason you can't "keep your mind clean". For example, the only time you see a woman's breast, it's probably in a hollywood movie with some sexual connotation, or in a magazine selling cosmetics or at the supermarket checkout. All that stuff is a facade. What is real, is bathing, breast feeding, and even beach activities. That stuff normalizes our perception of our own humanity, and too much "quick, run and hide, make yourself something to wear" actually incites the opposite attention that we are trying to quell.

I was skating with the family the other day and a young woman with her boyfriend appeared, and she was dressed in skin tight black tights or something. I noticed her as did my daughter, my sons (one is 3 years old, and he just kept staring at her) and everyone else in the change area not because she wore tight slacks and we were all thinking evil thoughts, but because she was just downright beautiful. Nobody could deny it, like a perfect vase, or a rose, it's the same thing. Now I just looked at that guy and smiled because what a blessing it is to have a rose by your side, and oh, the wonders of youth! But at no time did I denigrate her in my thoughts or think one thing ill of her, nor have I since because I have a perspective on such things that permit me to view beauty without getting sexual, the way a father admires beauty in his posterity -- in his daughters. Such things are not evil, and as long as we keep calling them that we'll need an ever increasing supply of Prozac and Zoloft.

http://abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4 ... 0F7XvWbJk0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"The fact that we're twice the national average with something like anti-depressants begs some explanation,". No kidding.

""A few of our friends take anti-depressants just because I think we're not good enough, like we don't think we're good enough, then we turn to other things," said high-schooler Lyndsay Anderson."

"Utah's leading psychiatrists say there needs to be additional studies to solve this growing mental health mystery."

It's not mystery to me. We're fighting the fire while we're feeding the flames.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Fiannan wrote:The "athletic" job for a cheerleader is to hype up the testosterone levels of the male audience, if not they would dress as they did back in the 1940s.

Sort of like when Celtic women would line the streets of a village naked and cheer on the warriors going into battle.
I suppose for some it is true. I attended my daughters dance performance a while back, and there were dancers on the stage that I'm sure would make the mainstream mormon squirm. I squirmed not, neither did my beautiful wife beside me. We could appreciate the beauty of the performance we saw, one in particular, where the dancer fully clothed but tightly, matched her curves with the curves of her body moving to the music. It was exhilaratingly beautiful, but not at all titillating. We commented to each other that such a performance would never fly at church or say, the BYU. So sad that in ensuring nobody is titillated, everything becomes a source for titillation when even Sister Frumpy accidentally wears a skirt 1/8" higher than she should.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink, the population of the church should have your perception about the human body.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:I am just pointing out that eliminating one source of potential immorality for one kind of person might just be creating problems for 9/10 others.
Where has BYU said the dress code is about eliminating potential sources of immorality? There are many reasons why the dress code could exist, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that it's to keep us poor zoobies from our perverted thoughts.
ithink wrote:And you completely missed my point on the double standard:
No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think it's correct.
Last edited by patriotsaint on February 19th, 2012, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Once at the testing center I was told I had to go home and shave before being allowed to test. I had shaved that morning, but had a 5 O'clock shadow by the time I went to take my test that evening. Was I a bit annoyed? Sure, but I went and shaved.
Apparently not annoyed enough though. You should have pulled out a picture of Young, Taylor, Smith, Smith or Smith, or how about Snow, and then told them you're one of the 3 Nephites, or maybe Jesus Christ, and you just failed. At least when Christ returns we'll all be able to wear beards again. After all, didn't God put that hair on my face?
This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:
ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Once at the testing center I was told I had to go home and shave before being allowed to test. I had shaved that morning, but had a 5 O'clock shadow by the time I went to take my test that evening. Was I a bit annoyed? Sure, but I went and shaved.
Apparently not annoyed enough though. You should have pulled out a picture of Young, Taylor, Smith, Smith or Smith, or how about Snow, and then told them you're one of the 3 Nephites, or maybe Jesus Christ, and you just failed. At least when Christ returns we'll all be able to wear beards again. After all, didn't God put that hair on my face?
This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.
Exactly. My son went to BYU-I, knowing full well the rules. Then he was upset about the midnight curfew. I told him he knew the rules and to just measure-up. He did....

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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So everyone who has an issue with BYU's dress code (or beard code) should either not go or withdraw. Makes sense to me. They are a private college, right? (That still doesn't make their dress/body code any less strange.)

Now, if only people would stop viewing the action of attending BYU as some sort of outer proof that one is righteous - and those who don't go as proof that one doesn't quite measure up.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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A Random Phrase wrote:So everyone who has an issue with BYU's dress code (or beard code) should either not go or withdraw. Makes sense to me. They are a private college, right? (That still doesn't make their dress/body code any less strange.)

Now, if only people would stop viewing the action of attending BYU as some sort of outer proof that one is righteous - and those who don't go as proof that one doesn't quite measure up.
That is honestly not how I view it. I just wish everyone could attend a church school. I was on campus at one time when Pres. Hinckley was coming to dedicate a building. All the students that day, dressed in their Sunday best in reverence for our Prophet. I love the feeling on that campus. I have a hard time leaving!

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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A Random Phrase wrote:Now, if only people would stop viewing the action of attending BYU as some sort of outer proof that one is righteous - and those who don't go as proof that one doesn't quite measure up.
The people who view it in this light aren't worth paying attention to my friend. Many of the current apostles attended schools other than BYU right? That should be enough to dispel the notion that attending BYU is some kind of spiritual rite of passage or somehow marks someone as spiritually superior.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:Where has BYU said the dress code is about eliminating potential sources of immorality? There are many reasons why the dress code could exist, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that it's to keep us poor zoobies from our perverted thoughts. ...No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think it's correct.
Perhaps you have a point, the dress code is there for no reason at all, to prevent the illicit sales of unpasteurized milk, or to prevent too much unmarried sex on campus. I have no idea which it might be. My point was that your point that "we don't have to go there" might be correct, but my point was that we still have to pay for it, and there is nothing we can do about it.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.
Maybe it's the hypocrisy that bugs me, and the fact that I have to pay for it. You can't wear a beard, and goodbye Dr. Jones, but hey, lets welcome Mr. Dick Cheney the seasoned and blood thirsty war criminal, dressed to the nines, and clean shaved: our arms are open for you.

And it's financed, at least partly, with your sacred tithing dollars.

BYU deserves an official name lift, how about just: "Y?"

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Juliette wrote:Exactly. My son went to BYU-I, knowing full well the rules. Then he was upset about the midnight curfew. I told him he knew the rules and to just measure-up. He did....
Got a friend here locally, he can't even shave daily, his face turns to raw meat. Give me a break folks: "Man looketh on the outward appearance, the Lord looketh on the heart". But we are so concerned about how we look aren't we? Today was ward conference, and the number of suit jacket in the congregation always doubles on these days. It'll be business as usual next week though, the pony show will be over.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Juliette, I will confess something to you. I once lived in Provo. I tried going to a "family ward" and was told I had to go to the ward that comprised my apartment complex (the complex was one ward), so I did. Most of the people were students and it was a BYU ward. (I thought I'd be out of place because I didn't go to school there.)

(Totally not on topic, but the counselor in the bishopric was the guy who played Joseph in the old First Vision movie that I used on my mission.)

Anyway, I was invited to come to a friend's Doctrine and Covenants class. I sat in on it several times. The class was huge and the teacher excellent.

Another friend had gone to BYU in the past, but was still in the science fiction club. I went with her a time or two.

Anyway, with assorted people I knew, I went to the movies they offered, went to a sort of devotional (or something - not the regular devotional; it was a small gathering in the same place the movies were shown) where Neal Maxwell spoke. Pretty cool. And was otherwise exposed to some student classes/life.

So, I've had experience there as a non-student. I was never hassled about anything, but that was a long time ago. My experiences with the students and faculty were very positive.

(I still think dress/hair codes are weird for adults to go by.)

Ithink, I was in a ward a couple of years ago where a man had a beard because of the same issues with shaving. No one in the ward even noticed or cared, as far as I could tell.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Juliette wrote:I was on campus at one time when Pres. Hinckley was coming to dedicate a building. All the students that day, dressed in their Sunday best in reverence for our Prophet. I love the feeling on that campus. I have a hard time leaving!
And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.
Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.
18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21 The rings, and nose jewels,
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.
That pretty much covers it all, but no, I forgot:
And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty [ie. they weren't wearing the right kinds of clothes], yea, and more especially by our priests [it is what it is]; for they have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do?

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:The people who view it in this light aren't worth paying attention to my friend. Many of the current apostles attended schools other than BYU right? That should be enough to dispel the notion that attending BYU is some kind of spiritual rite of passage or somehow marks someone as spiritually superior.
Patriotsaint, somehow I missed your post. Your view is refreshing. I wish more people had that perception.

I don't know what schools the current apostles attended. That would be interesting to find out.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.
ithink, I like you more and more.

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ithink
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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A Random Phrase wrote:
ithink wrote:And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.
ithink, I like you more and more.
:ymblushing:

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:Where has BYU said the dress code is about eliminating potential sources of immorality? There are many reasons why the dress code could exist, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that it's to keep us poor zoobies from our perverted thoughts. ...No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think it's correct.
Perhaps you have a point, the dress code is there for no reason at all, to prevent the illicit sales of unpasteurized milk, or to prevent too much unmarried sex on campus. I have no idea which it might be. My point was that your point that "we don't have to go there" might be correct, but my point was that we still have to pay for it, and there is nothing we can do about it.
Some of the possible reasons I see:

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
It couldn't be that they want to avoid distractions that extreme styles may present if allowed to crop up? (like private schools requiring uniforms)
It couldn't be that it's simply easier to set a standard than evaluate every individual case and preference?

As to your assertion you have to pay for it. That's not true. You can stop paying tithing any time you like if that is your wish. Part of paying tithing is having the faith that it is being used as the Lord intends, or if it is not.....have the charity to overlook the weaknesses or foibles of those that the Lord has called to administer his tithes.

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patriotsaint
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote: Got a friend here locally, he can't even shave daily, his face turns to raw meat. Give me a break folks: "Man looketh on the outward appearance, the Lord looketh on the heart".
BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?

natasha
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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Once again, I recommend everyone read the following talk by Neal Maxwell entitled "Why a University in the Kingdom":

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/10/why-a ... m?lang=eng" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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ChelC
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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ithink wrote:But that is part of the reason you can't "keep your mind clean". For example, the only time you see a woman's breast, it's probably in a hollywood movie with some sexual connotation, or in a magazine selling cosmetics or at the supermarket checkout. All that stuff is a facade. What is real, is bathing, breast feeding, and even beach activities. That stuff normalizes our perception of our own humanity, and too much "quick, run and hide, make yourself something to wear" actually incites the opposite attention that we are trying to quell.

.
I do agree with this part. I have no problem with BYU's honor code, but I think that if you are having trouble keeping your mind clean it is because you have allowed yourself to be exposed to too much over-sexualized media. it's hard not to today really. But trying to keep your mind clean by living in a bubble is never going to work. I'm not suggesting modest dress is anything other than perfectly awesome by the way, but you will encounter immodesty. Even a perfectly modest woman may have an affect on you. Some of that is normal attraction, and some of that is a warped view of the human body. Sexual attraction is pretty normal for a young guy and doesn't necessarily mean anything but if you are uncomfortable about the very idea of breast feeding, for example, then you have allowed Satan to warp your mind, IMO. A girl being modest isn't going to fix that misperception of yours.

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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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patriotsaint wrote:It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.

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bobhenstra
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Re: Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

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shadow wrote:
patriotsaint wrote:It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.
Thanks Shadow, we "want" people thinking we have no paved roads! Genola is a secret, and must remain so! We've worked hard trying to keep us off the map! We have no gas stations, no stores, (no Walmarts) Even the sign that that points the way to Genola was sent to you to add to your collection----We are the one single town in Utah, therefore the nation, that is prepared!

THERE IS NO PROPERTY FOR SALE HERE!

Bobby!

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