Recent Modesty Issue That Went Viral

[patriotsaintcaptain of 1,000]

Now, if only people would stop viewing the action of attending BYU as some sort of outer proof that one is righteous - and those who don't go as proof that one doesn't quite measure up.

The people who view it in this light aren't worth paying attention to my friend. Many of the current apostles attended schools other than BYU right? That should be enough to dispel the notion that attending BYU is some kind of spiritual rite of passage or somehow marks someone as spiritually superior.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

Where has BYU said the dress code is about eliminating potential sources of immorality? There are many reasons why the dress code could exist, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that it's to keep us poor zoobies from our perverted thoughts. ...No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think it's correct.

Perhaps you have a point, the dress code is there for no reason at all, to prevent the illicit sales of unpasteurized milk, or to prevent too much unmarried sex on campus. I have no idea which it might be. My point was that your point that "we don't have to go there" might be correct, but my point was that we still have to pay for it, and there is nothing we can do about it.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.

Maybe it's the hypocrisy that bugs me, and the fact that I have to pay for it. You can't wear a beard, and goodbye Dr. Jones, but hey, lets welcome Mr. Dick Cheney the seasoned and blood thirsty war criminal, dressed to the nines, and clean shaved: our arms are open for you.

And it's financed, at least partly, with your sacred tithing dollars.

BYU deserves an official name lift, how about just: "Y?"

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

Exactly. My son went to BYU-I, knowing full well the rules. Then he was upset about the midnight curfew. I told him he knew the rules and to just measure-up. He did....

Got a friend here locally, he can't even shave daily, his face turns to raw meat. Give me a break folks: "Man looketh on the outward appearance, the Lord looketh on the heart". But we are so concerned about how we look aren't we? Today was ward conference, and the number of suit jacket in the congregation always doubles on these days. It'll be business as usual next week though, the pony show will be over.

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

Juliette, I will confess something to you. I once lived in Provo. I tried going to a "family ward" and was told I had to go to the ward that comprised my apartment complex (the complex was one ward), so I did. Most of the people were students and it was a BYU ward. (I thought I'd be out of place because I didn't go to school there.)

(Totally not on topic, but the counselor in the bishopric was the guy who played Joseph in the old First Vision movie that I used on my mission.)

Anyway, I was invited to come to a friend's Doctrine and Covenants class. I sat in on it several times. The class was huge and the teacher excellent.

Another friend had gone to BYU in the past, but was still in the science fiction club. I went with her a time or two.

Anyway, with assorted people I knew, I went to the movies they offered, went to a sort of devotional (or something - not the regular devotional; it was a small gathering in the same place the movies were shown) where Neal Maxwell spoke. Pretty cool. And was otherwise exposed to some student classes/life.

So, I've had experience there as a non-student. I was never hassled about anything, but that was a long time ago. My experiences with the students and faculty were very positive.

(I still think dress/hair codes are weird for adults to go by.)

Ithink, I was in a ward a couple of years ago where a man had a beard because of the same issues with shaving. No one in the ward even noticed or cared, as far as I could tell.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

I was on campus at one time when Pres. Hinckley was coming to dedicate a building. All the students that day, dressed in their Sunday best in reverence for our Prophet. I love the feeling on that campus. I have a hard time leaving!

And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.

Moreover the Lord saith, Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet:
17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.
18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments about their feet, and their cauls, and their round tires like the moon,
19 The chains, and the bracelets, and the mufflers,
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the earrings,
21 The rings, and nose jewels,
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping pins,
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and the hoods, and the vails.
24 And it shall come to pass, that instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle a rent; and instead of well set hair baldness; and instead of a stomacher a girding of sackcloth; and burning instead of beauty.

That pretty much covers it all, but no, I forgot:

And they came unto Alma; and the one who was the foremost among them said unto him: Behold, what shall these my brethren do, for they are despised of all men because of their poverty [ie. they weren't wearing the right kinds of clothes], yea, and more especially by our priests [it is what it is]; for they have cast us out of our synagogues which we have labored abundantly to build with our own hands; and they have cast us out because of our exceeding poverty; and we have no place to worship our God; and behold, what shall we do?

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

The people who view it in this light aren't worth paying attention to my friend. Many of the current apostles attended schools other than BYU right? That should be enough to dispel the notion that attending BYU is some kind of spiritual rite of passage or somehow marks someone as spiritually superior.

Patriotsaint, somehow I missed your post. Your view is refreshing. I wish more people had that perception.

I don't know what schools the current apostles attended. That would be interesting to find out.

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.

ithink, I like you more and more.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

And that is exactly why the saviour will come in an hour ye think not of, because there won't be time to get your game face on, it will be come as you are.

ithink, I like you more and more.

[patriotsaintcaptain of 1,000]

Where has BYU said the dress code is about eliminating potential sources of immorality? There are many reasons why the dress code could exist, so you shouldn't necessarily assume that it's to keep us poor zoobies from our perverted thoughts. ...No, I didn't miss your point. I just don't think it's correct.

Perhaps you have a point, the dress code is there for no reason at all, to prevent the illicit sales of unpasteurized milk, or to prevent too much unmarried sex on campus. I have no idea which it might be. My point was that your point that "we don't have to go there" might be correct, but my point was that we still have to pay for it, and there is nothing we can do about it.

Some of the possible reasons I see:

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?
It couldn't be that they want to avoid distractions that extreme styles may present if allowed to crop up? (like private schools requiring uniforms)
It couldn't be that it's simply easier to set a standard than evaluate every individual case and preference?

As to your assertion you have to pay for it. That's not true. You can stop paying tithing any time you like if that is your wish. Part of paying tithing is having the faith that it is being used as the Lord intends, or if it is not.....have the charity to overlook the weaknesses or foibles of those that the Lord has called to administer his tithes.

[patriotsaintcaptain of 1,000]

Got a friend here locally, he can't even shave daily, his face turns to raw meat. Give me a break folks: "Man looketh on the outward appearance, the Lord looketh on the heart".

BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

Once again, I recommend everyone read the following talk by Neal Maxwell entitled "Why a University in the Kingdom":

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/10/why-a ... m?lang=eng

[ChelCThe Law]

But that is part of the reason you can't "keep your mind clean". For example, the only time you see a woman's breast, it's probably in a hollywood movie with some sexual connotation, or in a magazine selling cosmetics or at the supermarket checkout. All that stuff is a facade. What is real, is bathing, breast feeding, and even beach activities. That stuff normalizes our perception of our own humanity, and too much "quick, run and hide, make yourself something to wear" actually incites the opposite attention that we are trying to quell.

.

I do agree with this part. I have no problem with BYU's honor code, but I think that if you are having trouble keeping your mind clean it is because you have allowed yourself to be exposed to too much over-sexualized media. it's hard not to today really. But trying to keep your mind clean by living in a bubble is never going to work. I'm not suggesting modest dress is anything other than perfectly awesome by the way, but you will encounter immodesty. Even a perfectly modest woman may have an affect on you. Some of that is normal attraction, and some of that is a warped view of the human body. Sexual attraction is pretty normal for a young guy and doesn't necessarily mean anything but if you are uncomfortable about the very idea of breast feeding, for example, then you have allowed Satan to warp your mind, IMO. A girl being modest isn't going to fix that misperception of yours.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?

I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?

I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.

Thanks Shadow, we "want" people thinking we have no paved roads! Genola is a secret, and must remain so! We've worked hard trying to keep us off the map! We have no gas stations, no stores, (no Walmarts) Even the sign that that points the way to Genola was sent to you to add to your collection----We are the one single town in Utah, therefore the nation, that is prepared!

THERE IS NO PROPERTY FOR SALE HERE!

Bobby!

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?

Would the Muslim woman in the blue dress fit in at BYU?

http://i.huffpost.com/gen/180657/LETIZIA.jpg

Don't worry though, the USA/AL Qaeda Alliance is working on the demise of that woman and her husband.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

I just want to make it clear that I am not against BYU having a code. I was offered honors at entrance back in the 1980s but chose not to go since I really did not want to have someone watching what I wore. However, it is great if someone wants to go there and conform to whatever styles are set in place by the administration.

That said, we should be careful not to assume that BYU's standards in dress make for students who think better thoughts or that these are God's code of conduct. Modesty is entirely a societal construct. Even in the Garden of Eden when we read that Eve put on fig leaves I think it is safe to assume that she still remained topless. Why would she have covered herself and Adam not?

Just remember, take a typical group of young adults having a Monday night Family Home Evening, force them into a time machine and fire them back to Salt Lake 1860 and you know full well what the reaction of the people would be. Maybe in 2150 if we were to send the same sort of group back to 2012 we would totally freak out about their attire.

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

Once again...I really wish everyone would read the talk by Neal Maxwell entitled "Why a University in the Kingdom"...it clarifies a lot...great talk.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1975/10/why-a ... m?lang=eng

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

THERE IS NO PROPERTY FOR SALE HERE!

Bobby!

Only because there are no buyers!!
The town I live in had an apostolic blessing by Pres. Packer a few yrs ago that we would be protected during the last days calamities. I'll take that over gonorrhea, I mean Genola, or is it Jenola? You guys either can't spell or can't pronounce. Probably BYU grads!

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

It couldn't be that the school is trying to train students to look and behave as professionals?

I think we can cross that one out. I saw a story on KSL last week about BYU students building a cardboard box castle. So productive! I remember doing something similar in preschool.

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?sid=192456 ... ard-castle

I understand once Genola gets a paved road BYU grad students will paint the cross-walk lines. Hopefully the asphalt will be a few years down the road, BYU students still need to build a cardboard box bus to get the students down to Genola first.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

It's simple folks, Genola does not exist!

Bobby

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

It's simple folks, Genola does not exist!

Bobby

"This is not the Genola you're looking for. Genola does not exist." (waves hand slowly while saying it, and everyone's eyes glaze over as they repeat, "Genola does not exist.")

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

As to your assertion you have to pay for it. That's not true. You can stop paying tithing any time you like if that is your wish. Part of paying tithing is having the faith that it is being used as the Lord intends, or if it is not.....have the charity to overlook the weaknesses or foibles of those that the Lord has called to administer his tithes.

Come on, is that really a valid choice? Shut up and sustain it with your dollars, or don't, and burn at the second coming. Those are the choices. But it's the same as other organizations, isn't it? The situation is the same as this one:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 78522.html

The bottom line, is the institution always wins. For the greater good. The end justifies the means. It's all the same. It's not leadership, and has nothing to do with inspiration or doing what is right: it's real name is "management", which is just a politically correct word for "damage control".

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?

Why would I need a medical reason not to have to remove my secondary sexual characteristic? I'm just glad they haven't asked the sisters to do the same. That hasn't addressed the issue. The issue is why is there a dress code / beard code / code in the first place? I've already pointed out how I think it misses the mark and treats men unfairly from the women, and ignores the way women are motivated to be with men -- which is not by showing skin, but ironically, by dressing up, and by being clean shaven.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

Even a perfectly modest woman may have an affect on you. Some of that is normal attraction, and some of that is a warped view of the human body. Sexual attraction is pretty normal for a young guy and doesn't necessarily mean anything but if you are uncomfortable about the very idea of breast feeding, for example, then you have allowed Satan to warp your mind, IMO. A girl being modest isn't going to fix that misperception of yours.

Exactly. You can be clothed head to foot and still be immodest, and you can be nearly naked but still be modest as well.

[patriotsaintcaptain of 1,000]

BYU has an answer for this as well. Those that aren't able to shave for medical reasons are given an exemption. The Lord does look on the heart, and whose heart is more pleasing to the Lord........the student who agrees to the honor code and tries to follow it faithfully, or the student who murmurs, bickers and basically just kicks against the pricks all the time?

Why would I need a medical reason not to have to remove my secondary sexual characteristic? I'm just glad they haven't asked the sisters to do the same. That hasn't addressed the issue. The issue is why is there a dress code / beard code / code in the first place? I've already pointed out how I think it misses the mark and treats men unfairly from the women, and ignores the way women are motivated to be with men -- which is not by showing skin, but ironically, by dressing up, and by being clean shaven.

I've already listed a number of possible reasons why a dress code exists at BYU. I'm not sure if those are the real reasons, but in the end it doesn't matter. The dress code isn't enforced church-wide, so those that wish to avoid can do so easily enough. I find myself in agreement with you on many other topics, but I just don't get your position on this one. It's just not that big a deal. Sounds like straining at a gnat, but swallowing a camel to me.

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

It's just not that big a deal. Sounds like straining at a gnat, but swallowing a camel to me.

I do see your point. You're right, and I'm out on this thread.

cheers.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

This is the kind of attitude that bugs me. If you want a beard, go for it. Just don't voluntarily attend a school that doesn't allow one, and then complain about it afterward. How hard is that concept to grasp? If the honor code or its enforcement was a big problem for me, I wouldn't have went to BYU.

Maybe it's the hypocrisy that bugs me, and the fact that I have to pay for it. You can't wear a beard, and goodbye Dr. Jones, but hey, lets welcome Mr. Dick Cheney the seasoned and blood thirsty war criminal, dressed to the nines, and clean shaved: our arms are open for you.

And it's financed, at least partly, with your sacred tithing dollars.

BYU deserves an official name lift, how about just: "Y?"

If Joseph Smith were to have founded a learning facility like BYU, he would have taught and advocated correct principles and then let every student govern themselves.

Right?

Wrong?

Correct principles may not be strongly taught at home, or once kids get out of the house they allow peers to sway them in wrong decisions, or that the young girls watch too much TV and think they need to dress and act like the scantily clad actors, therefore comprising their better judgement.

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.

True, but women in Joseph Smith's time also wore no bras and never shaved their legs or underarms. Does that mean we need to return to those habits in the Church today?

[ithinkcaptain of 1,000]

If Joseph Smith were to have founded a learning facility like BYU, he would have taught and advocated correct principles and then let every student govern themselves.

Right?

Wrong?

Correct principles may not be strongly taught at home, or once kids get out of the house they allow peers to sway them in wrong decisions, or that the young girls watch too much TV and think they need to dress and act like the scantily clad actors, therefore comprising their better judgement.

I once walked up to an Amish woman and told her I really appreciated the way she dressed so modestly. And I thought how the women in our church dress. There is no comparison. I think the Amish women dress like the women did back in Joseph's day, and the type of modesty church leaders would like to see today.

Well I'm back in. I see what you are saying, and I appreciate the Amish woman. But even back in JS day with those long dresses, was adultery lost? No way, it was rampant. In essence, what I'm saying is the amount or type of clothing you are wearing has virtually nothing to do with modest you are. I know the plural marriage women swim in their dresses, while the apostle Peter likely swam with the custom of the time, which was naked. Our culture has us terrified of skin, let alone a "nipple" here and there, we gasp and run away in fear. And because of that, it all remains for sale as cheap titillation for the masses.

Who was it that asked us to get dressed in the first place? And now he want's us to get undressed? Are we sure about that?

Now pass the bottle of zotrax or whatever, I'm all depressed now.