[KoZ Comments below are in red and brackets...]
For Kathyn, quotes and comments about Salvation.
by bobhenstra » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:09 pm
Kathyn, everybody; Every prophet I quote, everything I say in this thread is my opinion,
This treatise is about the subject of Salvation. Its in two parts; The first part does not contain everything I had in the original, by the same token some quotes in the first part are not contained in the original. For clarification only, my original treatise follows my answers to Kathyn.
[This is fine... only I never found anything in this post that dealt with the subject of Salvation? Odd.]
Thank you Kathyn, but I suppose it depends on who you talk to. It's very strange how people will look me up after a lesson, meeting or class to ask me a question about something said, next thing you know I'm explaining myself in front of my Bishop or Stake President. They never attempt to set me straight about what I say, they say; "just be careful" So,--- I'm careful--, the discussion usually ends when I playfully request a list of prophets I can quote, or cannot quote--because that's how I usually answer questions, with a quote from a prophet or scripture.
[Sad commentary to have to play such games to keep your membership in an organization you call hereafter a 'True Church'.]
I have often been disappointed during Sunday School and priesthood classes as instructors present the gospel in what I consider a haphazard way, i.e. making "out of the blue" statements he or she considers factual when they are not! These fallacies are called by various names by real searchers, Sunday school doctrines, teachings of the fathers doctrines, or doctrines and false histories passed down from fathers to children without thought to test them in the very way we are clearly instructed by the Lord to do so. In reality, there simply isn't much testing done by utilizing the Spirit.
[You could just a easily dismiss most of my statements by holding them to this or that canonized book held in revere by this or that Church... you might want to take your own advise here when hearing some new point of doctrine to see if it is doctrine. Not by going to some published work, but taking it to the source of all truths, G_d and getting your own witness of whether it is true or not! I am sorry but not all truths are revealed in the Scriptures.]
Those who make a determined study of the scripture understand that they must “apply their hearts to understanding” in order to determine which interpretations of the teachings are true, casting out those which do not pass the test.
Applying our hearts to understanding, just what does that mean? We get some very clear hints from the scripture; The 9th section of the Doctrine and Covenants tells us we must study a concept out in our minds, pray about the concept, and expect an answer, burning in the bosom if the concept is true or confusion of thought if false. Indeed Luke and Cleopus on the road to Emaus after seeing and speaking to our Savior ask; “Did not our hearts burn within us?” and as recorded, Abinadi chastising the priests of wicked King Noah declared;
---Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean? I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord. Ye have not applied your hearts to understanding; therefore, ye have not been wise. Therefore, what teach ye this people? (Mosiah 12:26-27.)
Indeed, what teach ye this people? If as parents, instructors or students we are not able to apply our hearts to understanding; What our we teaching this people, what are we learning? As a parent or spouse we do not know how to apply our hearts to understanding, what are we teaching our families? How do we know what we are teaching or learning is true? Is the fact that we simply heard something in church sufficient? Perhaps we misunderstood what we heard, shouldn’t we make an effort to understand correctly?
Almost everybody in the True Church is familiar with Moroni’s declaration;
3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of ALL things. (Moroni 10:3-5.) Did you see Kathyn?? "All things!!!"
[Moroni had it right, not just in reference to those writings, but how to receive answers to come to know the truth of ALL Truths!]
And how about the famous scripture in James that caused the Prophet Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord about the churches of his day;
“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5)
How? How shall it be given us, Moroni says ”by the power of the Holy Ghost!” All these examples “burning in the heart,” burning in the bosom, the “swelling motions” described by Alma, the feelings of absolute peace of mind described by our Lord, all products of the Holy Ghost.
So, how do we accomplish this? How do we learn to apply our hearts to understanding? Really, it’s a process, actually a very simple process, we do as Moroni instructed. We read the Book of Mormon one or two chapters at a time, ponder what we have read, get on our knees, bow our heads and pray about it. We make it simple, asking if what we have just read and pondered is true, and “if” we do not cast it out by our unbelief as Alma instructs, the Lord promises we “will” receive an answer. We pray praising our Father in Heaven, thanking him for all he has given us, and asking for conformation of the truthfulness of what we just read, then ending our prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. However, we must learn not to cast out the things of God because we will receive no immediate answer, this involves the pondering. So we read a few more chapters, ponder, get on our knees and pray again. And we continue reading and pondering until we receive the witness of the Holy Ghost that the Lord, who cannot lie, promised us.
[If you do not get an answer at first, then you continue praying and seeking the spirit until you do, about all things that you feel a need to understand the truth of.]
There is an even more important reason to learn to apply our hearts to understanding, it's in understanding that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unclean tabernacles. So, is it possible that's the reason so few of us attempt to "apply our hearts to understanding?" Somehow we believe we are so wicked, the Holy Ghost would never do that for me! That's simply wrong! Look at the story of Alma the Younger, are you as wicked as he once was? The Holy ghost cleanses us before he can dwell within us, that's what happened to Joseph Smith just before he saw the Father and the Son, the grief he experienced, he was remembering his sins, all of them, then he was cleansed, and "saw"! We are cleansed of our sins back to our baptism. That's why Joseph Fielding Smith can say "he doesn't worry about sin, he can repent to fast!" None of us can stand in the presence of any member of the Godhood without first being cleansed by the Holy Ghost.
[So Bob, are you saying that forgiveness of sin come through a water baptism? That does not square with 2 Nephi, when speaking of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost that comes after, and then comes the remission of sin. I tell you, that when a repentant sinner really comes to the Father, all their sins are forgiven them whether they are a member or not, whether the sins were committed before or after their baptism!]
Seeking the Spirit, that's the key! And the promise is there, seek and ye shall find!
[I this we can agree... Amon! Amon! and Amon!]