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[Scarecrowcaptain of 100]

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[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc: the unofficial police of the police state.

[linj2flycaptain of 1,000]

I'm all for defending an individual's 2nd amendment rights, but a few things make me wonder if we're not hearing the whole story....

1. How does a discussion with a cardiologist logically move from 'all your tests are fine' to 'we could make a hole and put tubes in' (tracheostomy....really????) and then 'to you need to go to the ER' after David makes a flippant comment. This just does not compute. I don't know what state he lives in, but this is not common logic among doctors in my area.

2. Again, I don't know what state he lives in, but here, you have to be seriously, 'off your rocker' crazy to be admitted to the psych unit, (unless you have actually attempted suicide) because beds are few and far between. I think, however, this is a nationwide problem.

3. I'm not surprised that the police showed up to take him to the ER. If he was actually attempting, and someone called, that is what would happen; however, I've seen patients who were doing no harm to anyone or themselves (just talking to their hallucinations) brought in against their will by the police (and even then, the officers involved were unsure of the justness of what they had done...esp after our ER doc chewed them out). I also recently treated an elderly woman who was tased after holding a knife to her throat. Very bizarre situation. Anyway, they do show up...what they do after that?? Some show respect and restraint; others...not so much. I remember a couple of years ago talking with one of our senior police officers and he said, speaking of the younger officers in our town's dept, that they aren't getting the training that they use to. They don't know enough about civil rights and the constitution. He indicated that that used to be in the training but not so much anymore.

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

I'm all for defending an individual's 2nd amendment rights, but a few things make me wonder if we're not hearing the whole story....

1. How does a discussion with a cardiologist logically move from 'all your tests are fine' to 'we could make a hole and put tubes in' (tracheostomy....really????) and then 'to you need to go to the ER' after David makes a flippant comment. This just does not compute. I don't know what state he lives in, but this is not common logic among doctors in my area.

2. Again, I don't know what state he lives in, but here, you have to be seriously, 'off your rocker' crazy to be admitted to the psych unit, (unless you have actually attempted suicide) because beds are few and far between. I think, however, this is a nationwide problem.

3. I'm not surprised that the police showed up to take him to the ER. If he was actually attempting, and someone called, that is what would happen; however, I've seen patients who were doing no harm to anyone or themselves (just talking to their hallucinations) brought in against their will by the police (and even then, the officers involved were unsure of the justness of what they had done...esp after our ER doc chewed them out). I also recently treated an elderly woman who was tased after holding a knife to her throat. Very bizarre situation. Anyway, they do show up...what they do after that?? Some show respect and restraint; others...not so much. I remember a couple of years ago talking with one of our senior police officers and he said, speaking of the younger officers in our town's dept, that they aren't getting the training that they use to. They don't know enough about civil rights and the constitution. He indicated that that used to be in the training but not so much anymore.

My guess? The doctor'd already run the tests and found nothing. Rather than searching for an actual cause he took the easy way out and labeled it psychosomatic. Testing this theory, he did a casual psychoanalysis. Not understanding the gravity of this test, likely due to the doctor's incompetence, the patient treats it all lightly and makes a few jokes the doctor finds concerning. At which point tries to fob the poor guy off on the emergency room to handle so he doesn't have to. His patient, refusing to do any such thing, goes home. The doctor calls the cops on him, and since authority figures stick together the police come and forcibly escort him to the emergency room.

The emergency room has no idea what to do with him, but they take his doctor at his word about the mental problems, so they hold him in detention trying to figure out what's wrong with him. Eventually he, understandably upset, insists on being allowed to leave. Taking this as a confirmation of mental problems, the doctors have him admitted to a psychiatric institution for evaluation, at which point he is found to be perfectly find (if psychiatrists and psychologists are capable of finding a person to be fine), but to avoid embarrassment for their colleagues he is "diagnosed" with something harmless and allowed to leave.

Everyone's happy. The doctor doesn't get proved an incompetent buffoon and sued for malpractice, and he can conveniently take a vacation when the issue goes to court. The police get to confiscate the man's toys for keeps and can feel good about themselves, the emergency room and psychiatric institution were "just following procedure" and are held blameless, even if they were found to be at fault.

Sure, the guy's entire life is ruined, but that's not their problem, is it? He shouldn't have tried to seek help for a real medical condition.

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

I was watching this show with my sister the other night and she immediately blurts out 20 minutes into the show, "they're crazy! They are obviously mentally unstable!" I suddenly thought boy I'd hate to think what she things about me lol!

Seriously though people who are not into being prepared and such seem to see these people as nuts. I love watching it because I learn so much. Great ideas! I guess when the bottom drops my family will be running to my house... I will expect appologies before I let them in lol!!

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

The show is meant to show prepper's as crazy people. so they find the most outrageous people they can find. This is to support the fact that preppers are terrorist. Then the Gov will come in and haul you off to the nearest re-education camp or FEMA camp. They also try and get these guys to say outrageous stuff. The one guy was normal but apparently they asked him what would you do if others came to steal you food or hurt your family... off camera of course and the guys' answer on camera was to poison their food or cut their throats in the middle of the night. What a moron! That comes across as crazy talk to most normal folks. Never every say stuff like that on camera even though my may think it. That is bad marketing. They are trying to make all preppers out to be mentally unstable, extremist that hate all authority. This is total propaganda straight from the Nazi hand book. Why do you think this show is even on TV.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

We know the producers of this show and shows like it have an agenda. And that agenda is not good. It's probably satan's way of mocking those of us who feel the need to prepare for what will INEVITABLY come. He wants to turn us all into the foolish virgins. The show could have shown normal LDS about their daily lives with a 2 year food storage, but instead they purposefully hand-pick these kinds of people who will provide "amusing" entertainment.

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

All true. Also I always imagine that they usually are staying under the radar so when I saw they so freely wanting to be on TV I was surprised. I always hide the fact that I have things in place to be prepared. I definately don't want attention on myself.

[DrJaycaptain of 100]

Even here, we need to be careful what we share. This is a public record. Not even the locked sections are really private. I believe as our government becomes more invasive our posts here will be monitored and used to identify those that are "unfriendly". Even PM can be and will be monitored, although the sheer volumn there offers a small degree of privacy. I personally use GoldKey to secure communication I want to really be private.

[sadie_Mormoncaptain of 1,000]

Excellent point DrJay!

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc: the unofficial police of the police state.

Interesting that these are professions that are SO over-regulated that it is almost to the point where we have to pay their fees, but they really have to do what the government tells them to, or risk their license, property, freedom, etc. It's almost like we have to pay them, but they work for the government.

For some services and products the payment for them is basically another tax. For example, income tax law and forms are so incomprehensible that people (including me) buy software to make it easier or hire an accountant to take care of it, and in the process reduce their liability because the IRS appreciates that these tax professionals are their peers and really make their lives easier.

These days most companies of any decent size have people working full-time on government compliance... and some even have C-level executives acting solely as compliance officers. What these people do is dictated by government policy, so their role may theoretically be to protect the company from the government, but they really just do what the government says, and these roles are usually prime candidates for future government positions with the whole revolving door policy.

Frankly, hiring a lawyer is the same way. They are theoretically supposed to protect your interests, but unless you are their full-time employer their loyalty to the court is far greater than the little loyalty you can buy for a few hundred (or a few thousand) dollars per hour.

Not that all people in such positions are always this way, but is it surprising that people who are so used to constant "compliance" would by default support the position of government agents, no matter how wrong the situation might be?

Politicians often confuse legality with morality, and as they understand over time how they can get the legal system to do just about anything by twisting the truth, they can get the system to do nearly anything they want. There is no morality involved any more, it's just a matter of how well you manipulate the system that determines whether what you do is okay or not. If you're careful, you can break every one of the ten commandments with no legal problems (as people in government do EVERY day in the USA), but if you're not then any it doesn't even take a real crime or sin to get on the wrong side of the law and get chewed up by the system they helped support and grow.

[serenitylalacaptain of 100]

Doctors, lawyers, teachers, accountants, etc: the unofficial police of the police state.

Hey! I'm a doctor and I resent that!

[Tetramancaptain of 100]

Even here, we need to be careful what we share. This is a public record. Not even the locked sections are really private. I believe as our government becomes more invasive our posts here will be monitored and used to identify those that are "unfriendly". Even PM can be and will be monitored, although the sheer volumn there offers a small degree of privacy. I personally use GoldKey to secure communication I want to really be private.

The technology exists and storage is cheap enough that every phone call you make can be recorded, every financial transaction you make can be recorded, every place on the Internet that a computer goes can be recored. Google already tracks what you search for. Every keystroke can be recorded. Once every car has GPS installed (it's coming) everywhere that vehicle goes can be recorded. I'm not saying all this IS recorded and available to the government(yet), but the potential is there, and it's cheap to do.

It's obvious that there is far too much data for anyone to ever look at; however, I met someone where I work and when I asked him what he was working on he told me he was developing software to convert phone calls into text so that it could be profiled for terrorist or other illegal activity. So, what is more likely to happen is that all the data that is collected about you or your family will be used to create a profile. Remember Watson? The computer that was on Jeopardy? That's the kind of technology that will be profiling everyone. Remember how accurate it wasn't sometimes? It will be far easier to judge you by your profile then to spend the time to look at the real data on you AND it will be easier to be "safe" then sorry. So once you are profiled in a negative way, it might be impossible to undo it. Example: You may not be able to get a job because your profile says you are a high risk. The person looking at your profile will never know the details, just the summary.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

Even here, we need to be careful what we share. This is a public record. Not even the locked sections are really private. I believe as our government becomes more invasive our posts here will be monitored and used to identify those that are "unfriendly". Even PM can be and will be monitored, although the sheer volumn there offers a small degree of privacy. I personally use GoldKey to secure communication I want to really be private.

The technology exists and storage is cheap enough that every phone call you make can be recorded, every financial transaction you make can be recorded, every place on the Internet that a computer goes can be recored. Google already tracks what you search for. Every keystroke can be recorded. Once every car has GPS installed (it's coming) everywhere that vehicle goes can be recorded. I'm not saying all this IS recorded and available to the government(yet), but the potential is there, and it's cheap to do.

It's obvious that there is far too much data for anyone to ever look at; however, I met someone where I work and when I asked him what he was working on he told me he was developing software to convert phone calls into text so that it could be profiled for terrorist or other illegal activity. So, what is more likely to happen is that all the data that is collected about you or your family will be used to create a profile. Remember Watson? The computer that was on Jeopardy? That's the kind of technology that will be profiling everyone. Remember how accurate it wasn't sometimes? It will be far easier to judge you by your profile then to spend the time to look at the real data on you AND it will be easier to be "safe" then sorry. So once you are profiled in a negative way, it might be impossible to undo it. Example: You may not be able to get a job because your profile says you are a high risk. The person looking at your profile will never know the details, just the summary.

A good thread to read on this forum concerning this topic: Opening Your STASI File
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=14886&p=160342

[davedancaptain of 1,000]

If you ever get brought in to the ED by the police for a psychological evaluation. DO NOT get aggitated, angry, yell, threaten, curse, and try to leave. This behavior doesn't help your case. Just patiently go through the motions. You have to be medically cleared first which requires screening lab tests. Then you wait for a behavior health professional to do an assessment. Yes, the process takes way too long for anyone's patience.

If you have been brought to the ED by police, you likely have some sort of white paper signed that allows the doctor to have you held against your will for 48hrs until you have been evaluated. You don't just have to be suicidal to be committed. A person who the doctor believes could be psychotic or aggitated enough that there is concern that they could pose a harm to themselves or others can be committed.

As an ED doc, I can say that neither the behavior health, the accepting psychiatrist or ED doc wants to commit people. There are never enough beds, and the whole process is a bunch of time consuming, arduous paperwork. Also, psych patients take up a room in the ED for long periods of time which slows down the entire ED and requires a 1-on-1 watch which takes away ED staffing.

If you get brought to the ED with claims you are a threat to yourself or others, the patient becomes the responsility of the ED doctor. We try to look out for incidence of a false claim. Family membets might make a claim when the Social Security check comes in the mail. But again, going APE in the ED and being uncooperative is not the best policy in this circumstance.

However, often people come to the ED and they are not mentally stable or regulated. We see people who are psychotic and suicidal every day. And making sure there is not a medical cause and then getting that person to the care of a psychiatrist is necessessary. For less severe cases, the ED always prefers that the patient follow up as an outpatient.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

If you ever get brought in to the ED by the police for a psychological evaluation. DO NOT get aggitated, angry, yell, threaten, curse, and try to leave. This behavior doesn't help your case. Just patiently go through the motions. You have to be medically cleared first which requires screening lab tests. Then you wait for a behavior health professional to do an assessment. Yes, the process takes way too long for anyone's patience.

If you are ever brought anywhere by the police for any reason, it is best to close your mouth and communicate with them only through a lawyer. Even if you are a lawyer, it's better to communicate through someone else to avoid any sort of self-incrimination.

There is no such thing as trust in these circumstances... they won't trust you, and you can't trust them. Police officers, are trained to lie to you, but if you lie to them it is a crime (in some cases even a felony). Prosecuting attorneys, and many others in the legal system, will also lie to you or threaten you or take actual physical action against you to get you scared and make you more compliant. They are NOT in the business of bringing people to trial, even on felony charges where your life will be changed forever in so many ways people aren't even aware of. They are in the business of plea deals and boosting their numbers, and will threaten you with all sorts of stuff that is totally impossible if the case was actually brought to trial just to get a guilty plea from you.

Being a felon is no small deal either, and I guess being declared mentally incompetent has many of the same consequences (as done being on probation or parole for a misdemeanor, or even having certain misdemeanors on your record): no firearms or other "dangerous weapon"; most licensed jobs are unavailable, and many others won't hire you if they find out about your record; no voting in many places; restricting travel (not allowed, or requires permission for each trip); in some cases there are other arbitrary constraints added like limits on where you can live, who you can spend time with (ie no children, no one who has is a felon or has other particular criminal records), access to computers or the internet, and much more... in fact pretty much anything a judge decides would be applicable (yes... ANYTHING)... and to help it out there are mental health professionals whose livelihood depends on you being convicted, so they will say all sorts of things to increase your sentence and negatively influence the court proceedings.

There is also no logic or reason in these circumstances, so don't try to convince them of your innocence. They trick people into cages for a living, and have all sorts of things they look for in people and will try to catch you with, especially if you aren't licking their boots, which to them is offensive and confrontational. If they suspect you of a crime but can't prove it, they will continually be looking for alternatives they can get you on... and they can change or add charges at any time, even in the middle of a trial.

In no case are these people your "friend", even if they act friendly. If you comply with them they will treat you better, but chances are they will do more long-term harm during the process and many of them will think of you with contempt as a weak person. If you challenge them or don't comply, expect behavior on par with an elementary school bully... and expect to be fought against every step of the way. There is no way to "win"... even if you are found innocent it will cost you money, time, and potentially loss of employment and family/friend relationships just for beng accused. Remember, they are paid to be there and have all the time in the world... while you are paying for every minute of your time taken in this way.

All you can do is limit the damage, and the best way to do this is not communicate with them. There are laws in most state that you must identify yourself with your full name when asked, but in many states that is all you must do... though they will threaten you and lie to you and try to get you to sign all sorts of crazy forms and other documents to make the case against you easier. This is where you want a lawyer, even if it is a court appointed one.

Also, even if you have a lawyer... don't always take their advice. They do NOT have your best interest in mind... they are concerned with your ability to pay, and with their standard in the court. They will not help you if it jeopardizes their "permission" from the state to practice law, and many are even sensitive to getting on unfriendly terms with judges and prosecuting attorneys. Chances are they just want to get a plea deal going and call it a day.

A good resource to get familiar with this stuff is Juris Dictionary:

http://www.jurisdictionary.com/

They talk about defending yourself without a lawyer, but that's a tricky and risky thing to do. Not being a lawyer there are things you can get away with in court that a lawyer could not without risking his profession, and you might be able to influence the jury in your favor with such tactics. However, in some courts even mentioning jury nullification could land you in prison for contempt of court for six months or more with no trial and no easy way to appeal.

Having a lawyer allows you to restrict your communication with police and prosecuting attorneys, and that is usually better. They might lie and say they aren't out to get you... but the fact is that it is their JOB to be out to get you. If they are upset you with for whatever reason, even things like having food storage and guns, then you can't win with them... you can just minimize the damages.

I'm not a lawyer... thank goodness. I would hate to work in a job where I work for the government and have to do what they say, but my clients pay me. That's just icky and wrong, and unfortunately it is the ONLY way things happen under our current legal system.

Still, I wish someone had told me this when I was young. Instead I was taught to trust and respect authority and to always be honest, even if it causes you harm. In one situation about a decade ago that turned out to be a HUGE mistake. Honesty is great, but not to people who are trying to harm you. For me, I'll teach my children to not speak to police officers... it's just too dangerous for them. Even if they are a victim, I'll teach them to say as little as possible and not speak to them without an adult present. I've already taught my son the importance of keeping certain things private, and to not speak with teachers or doctors or anyone but very trusted family about things like firearms, food storage, and other preparations.

It sounds weird to even say that, and I know when doing so I have to carefully treat water. In an ugly divorce I was accused of all sorts of things, and I know that telling children not to talk about stuff is often part of abuse... so that is something we all have to be sensitive of. Still, most of what happens in our daily lives is not the business of government at all, and they really seem to hate it when people try to be independent and not reliant on their services.

Anyway, what a mess. I really feel for this guy. I know how totally frustrating and disempowering it is to deal with police and courts. If you are into preparedness, even more so because so many things you might want to do are now illegal for you, and that's not just firearms but various other things.

If he wasn't considering suicide before, he probably is now. They take suicide seriously when it suits them, but from my experience most of them don't really care, and in fact appreciate it when someone "takes care of" themselves. I had some counseling at one point that included group therapy and many there were on court ordered therapy... and in it suicide was considered one of the very few valid and possible ways out. The therapists and courts just got angry and blamed it on the people when they committed suicide (and it happened a few times while I was there), and then within minutes on another topic they would list suicide along with reoffending and successfully completing the program as the only ways out. Of course, these were sex offenders... so of course people want them to commit suicide.

To say this experience opened my eyes would be a serious understatement and not come close to describing the impact it had on me.

One therapist with decades of experience in court-ordered therapy and criminal psychology even joked about thinning down the prison population by throwing desired things like money or drugs over the wall and standing back to watch the ensuing fight. This guy had even been a Bishop. Seriously, people in these professions get twisted over time, it's really sad from an eternal perspective and really scary from a temporal one. It's not a "bad" system in some theoretical or ephemeral way... it's a bad system in that it hurts and kills people in unjust ways every day.

And then on top of this you hear otherwise reasonable seeming people say that all prisoners should be shot in case of an emergency so severe that the prison can no longer be operated. Once you are judged by the system, you are worthless. If you are even accused by the system, you are considered worthless until (and if) you manage to make it out of their clutches.

In an emergency what would scare me about ex-cons is not that they as individuals are inherently bad or crazy, but that they have been mistreated and abused for so long that you can't count on being able to deal with them in honest and respectful ways. Still, I have the same concern for most people currently involved in various parts of government. Should we shoot such people on sight in cases of emergency? I don't think so, and I don't think they have justification for treating people the way they do... but unfortunately they DO think so... and that is concerning.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Thank you for this, jonesde.
I have awakened in the Ether 8 sense, I believe, but not until 2005 when I first saw the fall of WTC-seven and pulled out my stopwatch and timed it's fall... that opened the can of worms. Then when I was put on Admin Leave for speaking out about these matters -- followed by Dick Cheney honored with an honorary PhD a few months later in a big public ceremony -- well, my eyes opened wider. And teary.


How about legal-shield or pre-paid legal? One can get these services for about $17 per month, and you have a 24/7 phone number to call. Otherwise, I don't "have a lawyer" whom I could call in an emergency such as arrest.

[davedancaptain of 1,000]

I'm not sure what good a lawyer would be in the ED?

I know judges in the ED giving out discharge instructions would be terrible. Tempting but a total violation of freedom. "I hereby sentence you to exercise, stop smoking, and limit your salt intake". It gets real when judges sentence rule that a person has to take Psych meds like lithium or seroquel. These kind of courts happen routinely.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

I'm not sure what good a lawyer would be in the ED?

I know judges in the ED giving out discharge instructions would be terrible. Tempting but a total violation of freedom. "I hereby sentence you to exercise, stop smoking, and limit your salt intake". It gets real when judges sentence rule that a person has to take Psych meds like lithium or seroquel. These kind of courts happen routinely.

I think your comments in the second paragraph answer your question in the first.

If you voluntarily go into the ED/ER, that's one thing... if the police escort you there, that's quite another. In theory we have protection from being forced to witness against ourselves, but most cops and judges get quite childish if you claim that right. That's where a lawyer is helpful... you'll get less argument, harassment (or effectively torture, depriving of sleep, food, water, etc for extended periods of time), lies, threats, and so on.