The PRICE of becoming a God? To serve or be surved?

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

now that we have a quorum of 12 who want to be GODS and have the mighty change, let's hear it from them on how they did it, besides the usual "broken heart and contrite spirit" response, ie, I mean the PRICE THEY PAID

Sticking with God even when it seemed He really wasn't there, had even betrayed you.

Praying mightily in behalf of an enemy who was actively trying to destroy you, even though you choked on your words the first several times. Praying until there was a day that you really meant it. Continuing to pray. Facing your enemy in court. Seeing plainly from his countenance and the look on his face that he hated you and intended to destroy you if he could, but your feelings for him were only pure love which really did chase away all fear. There is no feeling so awesome as that feeling. Not in my experience anyway.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

well said Random.............love it

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

The price hurts, but the end result is worth it.

Keeping the change is important. Like the scriptures say, we endure to the end.

[Ldwarrior1Hi, I'm new.]

In our fathers house are many mansions. I am sure we can attain the Celestial kingdom without going through what the Savior did; but If we are to have spirit children and create a place for them to live, it makes sense that we would have to sacrifice for them,just as we sacrifice for our children here on earth.Just speculating

The only candidates for the Celestial Kingdom are those who are baptized and received the ordnances of the Restored Church, by those who hold the authority of the Restored priesthood. Joseph Smith said it would be a long, long time after this life before we attain that position of being a God for our own posterity. But, we have to repent and keep the commandments and do the works He did. To do that we have to not just READ the scriptures, but STUDY them and incorporate them into our lives. As Elder Oaks said, “We must become,” what we came here to become. God the Father stated “It is my work and my glory to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” and that was the work that Jesus took on for the Father and WE must do His work so we will learn to do what He did. When we become Gods this will be OUR WORK with OUR POSTERITY. So, we must learn GOOD.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

ummmmmmm, what about pre-eight year olds?, and, all those born before the "Restored church"?, and, those who recieved by "previous priesthood", like Joseph Smith?, and, IF it will be a "long time", does that mean we can repent LATER?, oh, so many questions?

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

There is a law irrevocably decreed...
I would say yes. If we want what they have then we will have to do what they did. Maybe not in exact detail, but exactly in the "same cost" to us personally.

while we do have to sacrifice, i think you will find that the condescention, the atonement, and free salvation are all a gift from god. which makes him Lord and lord (God)

To say we have to be crucified misses this point

there is discussion that God the Father was once a Saviour on another way/ world, but that is still conjecture

the only thing I understand we equate to christ is that if we don't repent and wash our sins in his blood then WE have to suffer as he did. Refer D&C19.

otherwise I'd say no, we don't have to go through what the Saviour went through to receive ALL he will inherit. This is what the gospels are all about, this is what the "good news" was, I especially refer to Romans and Revelation for that.

I'd say there are some beliefs worth a discussion for sure, but barking up the wrong tree

The atonement is there so that we can still qualify to become God's ourselves by His sacrifice while we are in our more infantile stages of development. The atonement is essential to the plan because without it we would have no opportunity to continue on to Godhood. It doesn't mean that in order to become like Him we won't have to make our own sacrifices as well at the appointed time.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

The cost for us will depend upon our own wickedness, we either go to a place where there's weeping, and wailing and gnashing of teeth and suffer greatly in that terrible place, or understand the promise of Our Lord that we will not have to suffer as he did as long as we repent, forgive others and are forgiven ourselves.

The rights of agency will never be removed from our Heavenly Father's children, therefore the right to repent will always be with God's children, no matter how long it takes for wickedness, wrong choices and utter stupidity to be individually recognized and repented of. And then especially forgiveness from those the wicked offended, and that again, according to "their" agency, however long that takes!

Any other outcome means Satan wins, and it's impossible for Satin to win, Our Heavenly Father is perfect, His plan is perfect, and perfection cannot fail!

Bob

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

I agree with you Bob. There is a difference also between Salvation, Exaltation and Godhood however and I do think that is something to keep in mind.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

I agree with you Bob. There is a difference also between Salvation, Exaltation and Godhood however and I do think that is something to keep in mind.

No Sun, there is no difference between salvation, exaltation and Godhood, only a lack of correct scriptural study and understanding.

viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645

Bob

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

Candidates for the Celestial Kingdom, according to the scriptures:
Those who would have received the gospel
Little children

Those who meet the following criteria:
Receive the testimony of Jesus
Believe on His name
Baptized after the manner of His burial
Receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of hands by someone ordained and sealed to this power
Who overcome by faith
Who are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise

I don't see anything about having to pay for someone else's sins, be crucified, and so forth. It's pretty plain.

Scriptures I got this from:

From D&C 137:
1 THE heavens were opened upon us, and I beheld the celestial kingdom of God, and the glory thereof, whether in the body or out I cannot tell.
2 I saw the transcendent beauty of the gate through which the heirs of that kingdom will enter, which was like unto circling flames of fire;
3 Also the blazing throne of God, whereon was seated the Father and the Son.
4 I saw the beautiful streets of that kingdom, which had the appearance of being paved with gold.
5 I saw Father Adam and Abraham; and my father and my mother; my brother Alvin, that has long since slept;
6 And marveled how it was that he had obtained an inheritance in that kingdom, seeing that he had departed this life before the Lord had set his hand to gather Israel the second time, and had not been baptized for the remission of sins.
7 Thus came the voice of the Lord unto me, saying: All who have died without a knowledge of this gospel, who would have received it if they had been permitted to tarry, shall be heirs of the celestial kingdom of God;
8 Also all that shall die henceforth without a knowledge of it, who would have received it with all their hearts, shall be heirs of that kingdom;
9 For I, the Lord, will judge all men according to their works, according to the desire of their hearts.
10 And I also beheld that all children who die before they arrive at the years of accountability are saved in the celestial kingdom of heaven.

D&C 76:
50 And again we bear record—for we saw and heard, and this is the testimony of the gospel of Christ concerning them who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just—
51 They are they who received the testimony of Jesus, and believed on his name and were baptized after the manner of his burial, being buried in the water in his name, and this according to the commandment which he has given—
52 That by keeping the commandments they might be washed and cleansed from all their sins, and receive the Holy Spirit by the laying on of the hands of him who is ordained and sealed unto this power;
53 And who overcome by faith, and are sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise, which the Father sheds forth upon all those who are just and true.
54 They are they who are the church of the Firstborn.
55 They are they into whose hands the Father has given all things—
56 They are they who are priests and kings, who have received of his fulness, and of his glory;
57 And are priests of the Most High, after the order of Melchizedek, which was after the order of Enoch, which was after the order of the Only Begotten Son.
58 Wherefore, as it is written, they are gods, even the sons of God—
59 Wherefore, all things are theirs, whether life or death, or things present, or things to come, all are theirs and they are Christ's, and Christ is God's.
60 And they shall overcome all things.
61 Wherefore, let no man glory in man, but rather let him glory in God, who shall subdue all enemies under his feet.
62 These shall dwell in the presence of God and his Christ forever and ever.
63 These are they whom he shall bring with him, when he shall come in the clouds of heaven to reign on the earth over his people.
64 These are they who shall have part in the first resurrection.
65 These are they who shall come forth in the resurrection of the just.
66 These are they who are come unto Mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly place, the holiest of all.
67 These are they who have come to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of Enoch, and of the Firstborn.
68 These are they whose names are written in heaven, where God and Christ are the judge of all.
69 These are they who are just men made perfect through Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, who wrought out this perfect atonement through the shedding of his own blood.
70 These are they whose bodies are celestial, whose glory is that of the sun, even the glory of God, the highest of all, whose glory the sun of the firmament is written of as being typical.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

perhaps, it's just not about repenting, perhaps it ALSO has something to do with experience, ie, Christ suffered the greatest of all "humilations", adjudged for something he didn't do and was tortured to death for it and learned another lesson in Charity, might we need to have such experiences to empathize with those who become our progenitry, and prove outselves herewith, our faith in the law of justice?

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

Exaltation versus salvation:

17 For these angels did not abide my law; therefore, they cannot be enlarged, but remain separately and singly, without exaltation, in their saved condition, to all eternity; and from henceforth are not gods, but are angels of God forever and ever.
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 132:17)

Exaltation is:

20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.
21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.
22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me.
23 But if ye receive me in the world, then shall ye know me, and shall receive your exaltation; that where I am ye shall be also.
24 This is eternal lives—to know the only wise and true God, and Jesus Christ, whom he hath sent. I am he. Receive ye, therefore, my law.
D&C 132

Salvation is:

61 Therefore it is given to abide in you; the record of heaven; the Comforter; the peaceable things of immortal glory; the truth of all things; that which quickeneth all things, which maketh alive all things; that which knoweth all things, and hath all power according to wisdom, mercy, truth, justice, and judgment.
62 And now, behold, I say unto you: This is the plan of salvation unto all men, through the blood of mine Only Begotten, who shall come in the meridian of time.

Hm. It looks like salvation and exaltation are the same from the many scriptures I did not add (there were about 315, and I did not want to go through them all). But the first scripture above puts a difference between salvation and exaltation. Interesting. A person could argue two ways until doomsday, I suppose.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Random, why do we do baptisms and other works for the dead? Might it be for God's children as they repent, learn, and understand? And then qualify like those you mention in the scriptures above, the "scriptures" you quote?

Bob

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

perhaps, it's just not about repenting, perhaps it ALSO has something to do with experience, ie, Christ suffered the greatest of all "humilations", adjudged for something he didn't do and was tortured to death for it and learned another lesson in Charity, might we need to have such experiences to empathize with those who become our progenitry, and prove outselves herewith, our faith in the law of justice?

Well, the scriptures show us that Abraham had to pass through a pretty painful test. I understand that everyone who desires exaltation will have to be willing to give ALL to God, and the test is something we don't really want to give up. In that sense, I am sure that the sacrifice, to us, is what Jesus' sacrifice was to Him. (Our all, His all.)

Oh, yes, Bob. Most definitely. I wasn't taking sides on the issue. I was interested in seeing what the scriptures say about it.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

"..one intelligence above another.....", we all have the test we need, no only to "overcome", but to BE what we ARE and winess that to all those who might call themselves "sons and daughter"?

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

I agree with you Bob. There is a difference also between Salvation, Exaltation and Godhood however and I do think that is something to keep in mind.

No un, there is no difference between salvation, exaltation and Godhood, only a lack of correct scriptural study and understanding.
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645
Bob

yup, based on your eternal intelligence, right..........serendipity

[A Random Phrasecaptain of 1,000]

"..one intelligence above another.....", we all have the test we need, no only to "overcome", but to BE what we ARE and winess that to all those who might call themselves "sons and daughter"?

sbsion, *thumbs up*

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

"..one intelligence above another.....", we all have the test we need, no only to "overcome", but to BE what we ARE and winess that to all those who might call themselves "sons and daughter"?

As we repent, learn and are forgiven we "are" as our Savior described us in John 10:34 and Psalms 82, ---Children of the Most High! All we need is study!

Bob

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

"..one intelligence above another.....", we all have the test we need, no only to "overcome", but to BE what we ARE and winess that to all those who might call themselves "sons and daughter"?

sbsion, *thumbs up*

your light is SHINNING

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

What I mean is that achieving Christs level of Godhood will require others to do just as he did. There are different levels of Godhood and exaltation. As Joseph Smith said it is not something to be figured out all in this one life time and it will be something we will be working and figuring out for a long time. Thinking one can achieve what he has without having the same requirements doesn't make sense to me. As Joseph said in his King Follet discourse. What did Jesus do? Why He did what He saw His father do. He laid down His life and took it up AGAIN. There are many mansions in the Father's kingdom. The requirements are all the same. The road is all the same. But some will not choose to attain to Godhood or the highest form of Godhood.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

understand, comprehending, and practice manifestations are all essentials

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

It is not really a chose to become a God... for either your were, are and always was a God or your not. There is NO such thing as becoming such. For if you have a beginning as a God then you shall have an end, not being a God and there is no such God. All the Gods that have ever been and will ever will be Gods, remain God. They are without beginning of days or end of years... an allegory as to the span of time, more time laying before them.

Thomas and Reese and then thebestsun seem to be the only ones here who grasps what it takes to become a God. Thomas, there are those who know what those steps are after this life, and that Christ's sacrifice was and is the final step for Godhood. That is where the God's come from... The Messiah having been sired by a God, hence becoming the only Begotten Son (here in this world), having then receiving the markings of a God in His flesh (tokens of Godhood). For what is required? Those who would become a God in full right must first descend below all things and become an Eternal Son, they are then allowed to ascend above all things and become an Eternal Father. How can this be? Because they (the Gods) have made the Eternal Sacrifice required to become a God and having had all the blood drained from their bodies yet having the priesthood power required to pick that body up again do so and live forever.

thebestsun wrote: The atonement is there so that we can still qualify to become God's ourselves by His sacrifice while we are in our more infantile stages of development. The atonement is essential to the plan because without it we would have no opportunity to continue on to Godhood. It doesn't mean that in order to become like Him we won't have to make our own sacrifices as well at the appointed time.
Amon, well said thebestsun!

As for bobhenstra, Bob if I may, when you said: No Sun, there is no difference between salvation, exaltation and Godhood, only a lack of correct scriptural study and understanding. I would say the same to you... for it is a lack of understanding of the different that you cannot see the differences or the steps required. Salvation comes to all who will bend the knee and except the Messiah sacrifice. Exaltation come to only those few who go in by the narrow gate, for wide is the way that leads to other rooms and mansions in the Father's kingdom and many go in thereby. As for Godhood, 50% of the human race are the wrong gender and have a different portion to fulfill, a full 1/3 (men only) were cast out in the First Estate, leaving only 17% of the beings in this creation or 1/3 of all males in this creation still able to one day be. What is the ratio of males to produce a God? 1 in 1,620,000,000 billion. As for your question, why do we do baptisms and other works for the dead? First you have to understand why were required to be baptized. What is the two party covenant that is made? As for the other ordinances, these covenants relate to after life relationships in the Millennial world to come.

A Random Phrase, you quoted D&C 76:60 And they shall overcome all things. I would suggest looking at every reference of OVERCOME or OVERCOMING in the D&C and Book of Revelations. You might ask this simple question, not everyone will or can overcome the world, the Messiah was able to and he promises when those whom are given to Him grow up, we shall also overcome the world. So, in our current life here, is it possible to overcome the world and receive all those celestial blessings now? Obvious the Messiah or John is speaking of blessings in a far distant future time.

sbsion you are open to finding the truth, and in time you shall... there is a time and season for everything.

Shadow wrote: At the end of the millennium is the "little season" where satan will be loosed and there will be a last battle of testimonies, and we all know who wins that war. Winner takes all (hugs...) Well, the War fought in Heaven before this world was the war fought on the world before this world in its Millennial world and the war coming at the end of this world will end up in the same averages as every world does. A third part will be cast out of Heaven, as third part will become the Elect of God, and a third part will be fence sitters and lukewarm and shall eventually be spat out.

One person said we need to hear from those who have experienced their baptism of Fire... I am sorry I must eternally differ from this opinion. Only Second Estate Beings receive such a manifestation of a promised of exaltation. Fourth Estate Beings have their Calling (Holy Anointing) received in a Millennial world before this world or Third Estate and have now come to the place in the path where they must prove their Election... John 6:37-40 and D&C 50:40-42. For they have arrived where they are 'gods Elect', just Men made perfect and are the remnant of God spoken of so many times in the last days.
D&C 50
 40 Behold, ye are little children and ye cannot bear all things now; ye must grow in grace and in the knowledge of the truth.
 41 Fear not, little children, for you are mine, and I have overcome the world, and you are of them that my Father hath given me;
 42 And none of them that my Father hath given me shall be lost.

He was speaking of such beings...

Shalom

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

not disagreeing, but, add to it, those who will become gods, may not realize it yet, we all ARE, always were, and will be, some have called life fate, others predistined, still others just a serendipity, whatever, may you awaken and arise and BE

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

As for bobhenstra, Bob if I may, when you said: No Sun, there is no difference between salvation, exaltation and Godhood, only a lack of correct scriptural study and understanding. I would say the same to you... for it is a lack of understanding of the different that you cannot see the differences or the steps required. Salvation comes to all who will bend the knee and except the Messiah sacrifice. Exaltation come to only those few who go in by the narrow gate, for wide is the way that leads to other rooms and mansions in the Father's kingdom and many go in thereby. As for Godhood, 50% of the human race are the wrong gender and have a different portion to fulfill, a full 1/3 (men only) were cast out in the First Estate, leaving only 17% of the beings in this creation or 1/3 of all males in this creation still able to one day be. What is the ratio of males to produce a God? 1 in 1,620,000,000 billion. As for your question, why do we do baptisms and other works for the dead? First you have to understand why were required to be baptized. What is the two party covenant that is made? As for the other ordinances, these covenants relate to after life relationships in the Millennial world to come.

A small portion of my study! Read, study and understand, or not! Your choice!
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645

Bob

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

When does one awaken and arise to the knowledge of where they are upon the path? For men, they must generally be Senior Fourth Estate Beings, Noah's, Moses's, Elijah's, Joseph Smith's or Enoch's... even Avraham and Lot, or Aaron and Joshua, nor Peter and John, or Brigham and Heber with all their blessings, did not know where they stood before the thrown. They had dreams and visions, they had things revealed to them by their Dispensation Kings, but they did not truly know. For to know is to have faith beyond belief, to never question the truth revealed to you.

Do not feel disheartened that you or possibly others do not know (now) where you are upon the path... that old saying; that where more is given more it expected... is not something to be trifled with, there is more to this saying than a cute couplet

Thank you sbsion.

Blessings and Shalom

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

bobhenstra wrote: A small portion of my study! Read, study and understand, or not! Your choice!
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=5645

Oh how I love a challenge, be assured that I will take the time tomorrow to review your post and comment about it (here for you). I have no presumptions one way or the other. Also be assured it will be reviewed based on its merits and harmony with eternal truths and correct principles, not yours or the LDS Church's current interpretation of the doctrine.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

That's good, because your explanation of salvation is quite possibly the worst I have ever seen, in fact, it's so bad that I suspect your actually here on this site to cause trouble. Looking at your response to my post, now I'm sure of it! But you go ahead, it's not as if I haven't been through all this before!

Bob

[Kingdom of ZIONcaptain of 100]

[KoZ Comments below are in red and brackets...]
For Kathyn, quotes and comments about Salvation.
by bobhenstra » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:09 pm
Kathyn, everybody; Every prophet I quote, everything I say in this thread is my opinion,

This treatise is about the subject of Salvation. Its in two parts; The first part does not contain everything I had in the original, by the same token some quotes in the first part are not contained in the original. For clarification only, my original treatise follows my answers to Kathyn.

[This is fine... only I never found anything in this post that dealt with the subject of Salvation? Odd.]
___________________________________________________________________________

Thank you Kathyn, but I suppose it depends on who you talk to. It's very strange how people will look me up after a lesson, meeting or class to ask me a question about something said, next thing you know I'm explaining myself in front of my Bishop or Stake President. They never attempt to set me straight about what I say, they say; "just be careful" So,--- I'm careful--, the discussion usually ends when I playfully request a list of prophets I can quote, or cannot quote--because that's how I usually answer questions, with a quote from a prophet or scripture.

[Sad commentary to have to play such games to keep your membership in an organization you call hereafter a 'True Church'.]

I have often been disappointed during Sunday School and priesthood classes as instructors present the gospel in what I consider a haphazard way, i.e. making "out of the blue" statements he or she considers factual when they are not! These fallacies are called by various names by real searchers, Sunday school doctrines, teachings of the fathers doctrines, or doctrines and false histories passed down from fathers to children without thought to test them in the very way we are clearly instructed by the Lord to do so. In reality, there simply isn't much testing done by utilizing the Spirit.

[You could just a easily dismiss most of my statements by holding them to this or that canonized book held in revere by this or that Church... you might want to take your own advise here when hearing some new point of doctrine to see if it is doctrine. Not by going to some published work, but taking it to the source of all truths, G_d and getting your own witness of whether it is true or not! I am sorry but not all truths are revealed in the Scriptures.]

Those who make a determined study of the scripture understand that they must “apply their hearts to understanding” in order to determine which interpretations of the teachings are true, casting out those which do not pass the test.

Applying our hearts to understanding, just what does that mean? We get some very clear hints from the scripture; The 9th section of the Doctrine and Covenants tells us we must study a concept out in our minds, pray about the concept, and expect an answer, burning in the bosom if the concept is true or confusion of thought if false. Indeed Luke and Cleopus on the road to Emaus after seeing and speaking to our Savior ask; “Did not our hearts burn within us?” and as recorded, Abinadi chastising the priests of wicked King Noah declared;

---Are you priests, and pretend to teach this people, and to understand the spirit of prophesying, and yet desire to know of me what these things mean? I say unto you, wo be unto you for perverting the ways of the Lord! For if ye understand these things ye have not taught them; therefore, ye have perverted the ways of the Lord. Ye have not applied your hearts to understanding; therefore, ye have not been wise. Therefore, what teach ye this people? (Mosiah 12:26-27.)

Indeed, what teach ye this people? If as parents, instructors or students we are not able to apply our hearts to understanding; What our we teaching this people, what are we learning? As a parent or spouse we do not know how to apply our hearts to understanding, what are we teaching our families? How do we know what we are teaching or learning is true? Is the fact that we simply heard something in church sufficient? Perhaps we misunderstood what we heard, shouldn’t we make an effort to understand correctly?

Almost everybody in the True Church is familiar with Moroni’s declaration;

3 Behold, I would exhort you that when ye shall read these things, if it be wisdom in God that ye should read them, that ye would remember how merciful the Lord hath been unto the children of men, from the creation of Adam even down until the time that ye shall receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts. And when ye shall receive these things, I would exhort you that ye would ask God, the Eternal Father, in the name of Christ, if these things are not true; and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost. And by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of ALL things. (Moroni 10:3-5.) Did you see Kathyn?? "All things!!!"

[Moroni had it right, not just in reference to those writings, but how to receive answers to come to know the truth of ALL Truths!]

And how about the famous scripture in James that caused the Prophet Joseph Smith to inquire of the Lord about the churches of his day;

“If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.” (James 1:5)

How? How shall it be given us, Moroni says ”by the power of the Holy Ghost!” All these examples “burning in the heart,” burning in the bosom, the “swelling motions” described by Alma, the feelings of absolute peace of mind described by our Lord, all products of the Holy Ghost.

So, how do we accomplish this? How do we learn to apply our hearts to understanding? Really, it’s a process, actually a very simple process, we do as Moroni instructed. We read the Book of Mormon one or two chapters at a time, ponder what we have read, get on our knees, bow our heads and pray about it. We make it simple, asking if what we have just read and pondered is true, and “if” we do not cast it out by our unbelief as Alma instructs, the Lord promises we “will” receive an answer. We pray praising our Father in Heaven, thanking him for all he has given us, and asking for conformation of the truthfulness of what we just read, then ending our prayer in the name of Jesus Christ. However, we must learn not to cast out the things of God because we will receive no immediate answer, this involves the pondering. So we read a few more chapters, ponder, get on our knees and pray again. And we continue reading and pondering until we receive the witness of the Holy Ghost that the Lord, who cannot lie, promised us.

[If you do not get an answer at first, then you continue praying and seeking the spirit until you do, about all things that you feel a need to understand the truth of.]

There is an even more important reason to learn to apply our hearts to understanding, it's in understanding that the Holy Ghost cannot dwell in unclean tabernacles. So, is it possible that's the reason so few of us attempt to "apply our hearts to understanding?" Somehow we believe we are so wicked, the Holy Ghost would never do that for me! That's simply wrong! Look at the story of Alma the Younger, are you as wicked as he once was? The Holy ghost cleanses us before he can dwell within us, that's what happened to Joseph Smith just before he saw the Father and the Son, the grief he experienced, he was remembering his sins, all of them, then he was cleansed, and "saw"! We are cleansed of our sins back to our baptism. That's why Joseph Fielding Smith can say "he doesn't worry about sin, he can repent to fast!" None of us can stand in the presence of any member of the Godhood without first being cleansed by the Holy Ghost.

[So Bob, are you saying that forgiveness of sin come through a water baptism? That does not square with 2 Nephi, when speaking of the baptism of fire and the Holy Ghost that comes after, and then comes the remission of sin. I tell you, that when a repentant sinner really comes to the Father, all their sins are forgiven them whether they are a member or not, whether the sins were committed before or after their baptism!]

Seeking the Spirit, that's the key! And the promise is there, seek and ye shall find!


[I this we can agree... Amon! Amon! and Amon!]

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

my last post didn't appear, hmmmmm quess I't just take it as a "sign"... suffice, intelligences ARE, eternal, unchangeable except in their manifestation relative to their experience, hence God is just based on eternal law of "Charity", allowing each of us to be who or what we are, ordinances and blessing come according to choice and, according to the law, automatic..enough

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

the PRICE, bottom line.......your life to help others live NO MATTER their "station"