People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by BroJones »

gooseguy11 wrote:

OK, I am excited to say the least for your progress in this thing. To address the above concerns, in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike. Follow the link:

http://www.stevenscountyassembly.com/bl ... ance-final" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have a strong sheriff, who is part of Sheriff Mack’s line of thinking.


As far a local economies doing this, we have been doing this in my home town for three years. Each year we grow a little more. Our local municipality actually puts it on. They let us (the market) use the space and each vendor pays for the space it uses $15 a week. All the money goes to pay for a manager and advertising and it is managed by a board comprised of vendors. Each vendor sells what ever they want. We sell b-fast sandwiches, and cotton candy. Others sell trinkets they make, or produce on their own property, tacos, shave ice, veggies and fruits. The health dept is very much a part of what we do, it is not that big of a deal. They just make sure what we make is safe. As far as vendor goes we have probably 40 vendors in the peak of the season. Some come as far as 130 miles to sell at our market. After talking to our market vendors that come from afar they say other markets may have more people that come to them, but that they are often just looking at our people are buying stuff. They come from markets far larger than ours, it just works out better for them here than there. Our town is only 20,000 people not a small town but not a huge one either.

The structure of the market is also a draw to the vendors as well as they say other markets are privately ran and often the owners are there to make a buck and do not contribute to the market at all. They charge admission, or for parking which then just inhibits potential customers from even wanting to come. Or their rules are cumbersome to follow.

Here is a link to the market: http://www.moseslakefarmersmarket.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I Hope this helps.
jaasdf
Yes! I'm excited to see that you have this in place already. Great!

in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike.


Please let us know if this is challenged/holds up, would you? again, congratulations to you and your county.

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bobhenstra
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by bobhenstra »

If you guys really want to do this, I'm sure you'll find that's it's much better to keep everything simple. Our fruit farmers here have discovered that they make a better profit from their fruit by simply selling it in farmers markets instead of trucking it all over selling it through brokers. I'm sure if you guys start a farmers market in your area our farmers will discover your market.

I've spent a lot of time in markets in many different countries, in every case they were simple places to buy and sell in. I loved outdoor market shopping in the City of Quezaltenango in Guatemala. Tons of great stuff to buy there! And cheap, I often went broke saving money-----

Bob

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by davedan »

Every December my home ward has an interesting SWAP-DAY event. Everyone brings to the Cultural Hall surplus, second-hand, clothing, toys, furniture, electronics, kitchen ware, etc. People bring what they aren't using, and take whatever they need.

There is no bartering. You bring what you have excess of, and take what you need. We are always left with a huge excess of everything.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

I was out of the loop yesterday, and this thread had a lot of activity, so lots to catch up on. I’m just going to grab a few comments here and there for quick response.

First of all, Mes, great thoughts from D&C 64. This is what I’m going to say, based on my experience and observation – the proof will be in the pudding -- if it is Lord’s will, and it is meant to be, it will work and come together; if it is not, then the time is not yet right, although obviously eventually there is no question that all this sort of thing will happen and be very successful – under the Lord’s guidance, direction, and possible intervention.
It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.
As I mentioned before, I’ve done some of this. We started in our own town. I won’t go into all the details here, but it took us four years of hard, persistent work to change the law (an intrusive new land-use ordinance) and the lawmakers (regime change). It was a great effort and a great success story that I could share some time in more detail. Two years later we tried to start doing the same thing at the county level – to clean-up some serious and obvious corruption, but we got handed our hats. As I’ve said before, especially in a county full of old-timers and good ol’ boys, I don’t believe it is realistically possible to make something happen politically before making something significant happen business-wise. The people who are trying to do it and leade the effort have to have a lot of credibility. A successful and thriving co-op/market would be a great way to get people involved, on board, spread the word, etc.
Also a couple thoughts on profit. Profit is an essential requirement of doing business. It basically represents the value added by the company to the goods or tools that the company acquires. Profit is requisite for future business expansion/investment.

As I understand the Law of Consecration....the entire focus of the LOC is on profit....or value added. . . . The focus is on stewardship and ultimately in adding value (profitability - parable of the talents).
I agree with Jason’s thoughts on all counts, especially including financial/profit aspect of it. Having said that, while I agree that profit can’t/shouldn’t be the only motive, to be successful, I don’t think the financial/profit motive can be ignored. Mes and I and others need to provide, financially, for our families. If we’re struggling to do that, we need to be putting our time, energy, effort and resources into things that help do that (and other things). Since ETB said our single most important role as Fathers in Zion is to provide for our families, if we’re struggling to do that, we can’t afford to be spending a bunch of time and effort doing things that don’t help us in that role. On the other hand, helping us better meet that need should be a great motivating factor in this whole equation. And that is one reason I think it is worth considering even making the market itself a “for-profit” venture. I have run the numbers. In the right place, I actually think that side of it would be the easiest “business” to get up and running, and generating income to help get the ball rolling. I have considered the fact that in Utah a real successful people’s market venture would eventually need to a place to move indoors to be protected from the elements during the winter, etc., and have thought that an old Wal-mart, K-mart, etc., would be a great venue (I’ve even done some location scouting), but how could that be funded and/or make any financial sense unless it were operated on a for-profit basis?
Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.
Because I’ve already looked into this to some extent, I know that in Utah I Famer’s Markets have been exempt from sales tax. That is one of the reasons why both sellers and buyers love them. The state legislature has been talking about changing that, but I don’t think it has happened yet. With respect to business licenses, even in a worst case scenario only “businesses” need them anyway. If people simply bring their garage sale to the market, they don’t need a license. But doing something to stream-line and handle any business license requirement would be a great help. I’ve also had some additional thoughts along that line, but a cooperative, instead of antagonistic local government would be a great help.

Yesterday, because I was on the road and out-of pocket, whenever I had a chance I was reading a book that I had along. The book was about the business considerations for farmstead/artisan cheesemaking. It went into a lot of history about cheese and cheesemaking and marketing, etc. It talked about how in Europe, some towns are/were considered to be "market' towns. Those were the towns where markets just like we've described were developed, and where people came to trade and do business. Based on my experience and observation, I think the same thing is true all over the world. Some towns are market towns. They become commercial hubs, in a sense, and the local economy benefits greatly from the financial activity. During one of my several stints in Cedar City, Utah, I was heavily involved with the local Chamber of Commerce and economic development committee. One interesting study we did was about the multiplier effect of money that changed hands at the local livestock auction, and then changed hands again all over town. Cedar City is a market town, and people come from all over, especially to sell their livestock at the auction. My point is that any communit(ies) that get a successful alternative market up and running and become "market" towns will have a huge advantage economically. I think the same thing is true all over. In Sanpete County the current "market" town is Ephraim. It has evolved into the commercial hub of Sanpete County (mostly because of Wal-mart and Snow College). The problem, though, is that except for wages very little of the money spent at Wal-mart gets re-circulated in the local community.

The point I want to make is that I think it is worth thinking "with the end in mind" and seriously considering the full potential of this sort of enterprise, especially from the people's market side of things. To that end, I think it would be worth trying to re-invent the wheel just once, and really perfect a business model, and then duplicate that model over and over again in places that would make sense to be "market" towns, providing a great venue for locals to buy, sell and trade "local" stuff.

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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Well said, tmac -- I appreciated these insights:
Because I’ve already looked into this to some extent, I know that in Utah I Famer’s Markets have been exempt from sales tax. That is one of the reasons why both sellers and buyers love them. The state legislature has been talking about changing that, but I don’t think it has happened yet. With respect to business licenses, even in a worst case scenario only “businesses” need them anyway. If people simply bring their garage sale to the market, they don’t need a license. But doing something to stream-line and handle any business license requirement would be a great help. I’ve also had some additional thoughts along that line, but a cooperative, instead of antagonistic local government would be a great help.
And:

The point I want to make is that I think it is worth thinking "with the end in mind" and seriously considering the full potential of this sort of enterprise, especially from the people's market side of things. To that end, I think it would be worth trying to re-invent the wheel just once, and really perfect a business model, and then duplicate that model over and over again in places that would make sense to be "market" towns, providing a great venue for locals to buy, sell and trade "local" stuff.
That seems a worthy goal of this discussion -- to "re-invent the wheel just once" for the "people's market" or "multi-family yard sale" concept.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

awar_e wrote:I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Has anyone else looked at this site?

I do not live in the service area so I will not be able to test it but I think there are some good ideas here.

One, what if people could pre-order for the people's market. This would give a merchant the incentive to be there if they know ahead of time that they have a known quantity of sells already made.

Two, the people's market can serve as an escrow to accept the payment from the customer, and hold it for the vendor. If the vendor doesn't show the market can refund the money. If the customer doesn't show, then what?

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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mes5464 wrote:
awar_e wrote:I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Has anyone else looked at this site?

I do not live in the service area so I will not be able to test it but I think there are some good ideas here.

One, what if people could pre-order for the people's market. This would give a merchant the incentive to be there if they know ahead of time that they have a known quantity of sells already made.

Two, the people's market can serve as an escrow to accept the payment from the customer, and hold it for the vendor. If the vendor doesn't show the market can refund the money. If the customer doesn't show, then what?
Its an awesome distribution model (no store front, low overhead, etc)....but the downers are lack of choice as the buyers pick what will be in the baskets and you just purchase X number of baskets and you get what you get (product quality, variety, and quantity has declined over the past year).

My family has used them for just over a year now but we have petered out on them over the past month or so and will probably cease and desist in the near future.

Part of that is driven by health goals....whereas the basic driver of BB membership I think is cost savings on produce. If their organic line and non-organic line didn't cross over (same products) it would be exceptionally better. For example dirty dozen items provided in the organic box and not in the main baskets. Maybe that's asking a lot. Many other similar organizations. One of late that has been useful to us for meat purchases is Zaycon Foods.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

I just remembered something that has been going on in my county. People are buying shares in farmer's crops. Then through the summer they pickup (or it is delivered) their share of the produce. My sister-in-law likes it and feels that she is getting her moneys worth. Additionally, they now know the farmer, where the food is grown, and can just show up to look at their investment. This method also, by its nature, keeps the food production close to the consumer.

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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JulesGP wrote:Thanks for the info Jason, maybe I'll have to do a bit more research before I jump in!
Try it for a week or two....there's no long term obligation. I still think its a very good bang for the buck in terms of what you pay and what you get.

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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JulesGP wrote:
Jason wrote:
JulesGP wrote:Thanks for the info Jason, maybe I'll have to do a bit more research before I jump in!
Try it for a week or two....there's no long term obligation. I still think its a very good bang for the buck in terms of what you pay and what you get.
Well I'm very particular about paying attention to the "Dirty Dozen" and watching where my produce comes from. So I'll have to check out the prices... we'll see. Glad there is no contract though. But I'd still likely pay a little more to support a cooperative if that's the case.
They ask you to volunteer roughly every 5 times...which is very cool that everyone volunteers time to help each other out.

When we initially started we were overwhelmed with eating the vast amounts of vegetables (we've gotten two baskets every week for past year)....which was good for our health. Over the year we've progressed in our health knowledge and have gotten more picky. Specifically trying to avoid the dirty dozen when possible as well as adding vast amounts of specific items like kale.

BB seems to not go after the exotic variety as much (buyer's choice or market dynamics like drought and export problems with Mexico). The choices seem to mirror what deals Sunflower Market is having so seem to be buying the same things at the same time. BB obviously offers more bang for the buck because its a Co-op run by volunteers. In a perfect world they would avoid the dirty dozen in the regular baskets and offer that stuff in the organic boxes....unfortunately that isn't the case and its usually a mix of items. You get less for organic so we've tried to balance our quantity needs with organic by getting one of each. That isn't working and the quality in the organic boxes hasn't been that great (at the store I would have chosen less beat up produce and gladly paid a higher price).

We hope to soon bypass the whole process and grow most of our produce ourselves via hydroponics in the basement until the gardens can get cranking. That though has been a work in progress and is running 150% of budget right now and weeks out from hopefully what will be positive results.

Sorry about the epistle....

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Hate to move from the very useful and practical discussion of the ins and outs of BB (we use them too) back to more theoretic and esoteric topics, but I wanted to go back to the people's market discussion.

John Adams' discussion of Leonard Arrington and the Great Basin Kingdom, etc., got me thinking about a book I have that talks about Brigham Young's original vision for how the West would be settled and colonized. I have now hunted and hunted for the book, but can't seem to find it. But in a nutshell, it said his basic vision was that local communities and their residents would be (and always be) interdependent and self-sufficient in virtually every way, and that within not more than 50 miles there would be a "market town," if you will, or a bigger commercial hub, where you could get anything that you might not be able to get in your own small community, but without having to travel any farther than that. I think that concept makes a lot of sense. I remember talking to a guy some years ago about all of this. We were at a big draft horse and equipment sale and swap meet in Oregon sponsored by Small Farmers Journal (held every spring, and also definitely worth checking out). He say "you know what has destroyed small towns don't you? -- cheap gas." There's a lot of truth to what he said. Cheap gas has allowed us to drive to Wal-mart and Costco to get a little better price, rather than do business more locally.

So back to the market idea. From my perspective, in the context of starting a for-profit co-op to provide basic goods and/or services, I think an alternative, peoples-market itself could/should be considered to be one of the essential services that could/should be one of the first enterprises.

I’ve given all this a lot of thought – for quite some time now. I agree with everything that has been said about working together and production, etc. That all needs to happen. But in addition to faith, vision, etc., it will take time, effort, energy and most-importantly, capital to make all that happen and get productive enterprises up and running. In the meantime, it wouldn't take near as much to get a market up and running. The other thing is, it’s pretty tough to make a living from most start-ups, including production enterprises, especially during the initial start-up phase. In most cases, like Jonesde said, you either have to have other resources, investment capital, another source of income, etc., to help bridge the gap. And my point is, if it was structured right, I think this whole alternative market concept could be a very viable for-profit business that could start generating net income much more quickly, and essentially right of the chute, and help start building resources of all kinds to get something more tangible and concrete going. And, when it comes to the production side of the equation, marketing is usually the biggest challenge, so it would be killing multiple important birds with one stone.

I have some more concrete ideas along that line, but I'm curious to hear other peoples' thoughts. I've got to take off again this morning, and will probably be out of the discussion loop for a couple days, but will try to catch up again when I get back.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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tmac wrote: [Brigham Young's] basic vision was that local communities and their residents would be (and always be) interdependent and self-sufficient in virtually every way, and that within not more than 50 miles there would be a "market town," if you will, or a bigger commercial hub, where you could get anything that you might not be able to get in your own small community, but without having to travel any farther than that. I think that concept makes a lot of sense.
I remember talking to a guy some years ago about all of this. We were at a big draft horse and equipment sale and swap meet in Oregon sponsored by Small Farmers Journal (held every spring, and also definitely worth checking out). He say "you know what has destroyed small towns don't you? -- cheap gas." There's a lot of truth to what he said. Cheap gas has allowed us to drive to Wal-mart and Costco to get a little better price, rather than do business more locally.

So back to the market idea. From my perspective, in the context of starting a for-profit co-op to provide basic goods and/or services, I think an alternative, peoples-market itself could/should be considered to be one of the essential services that could/should be one of the first enterprises.

I’ve given all this a lot of thought – for quite some time now. I agree with everything that has been said about working together and production, etc. That all needs to happen. But in addition to faith, vision, etc., it will take time, effort, energy and most-importantly, capital to make all that happen and get productive enterprises up and running. In the meantime, it wouldn't take near as much to get a market up and running. The other thing is, it’s pretty tough to make a living from most start-ups, including production enterprises, especially during the initial start-up phase. In most cases, like Jonesde said, you either have to have other resources, investment capital, another source of income, etc., to help bridge the gap. And my point is, if it was structured right, I think this whole alternative market concept could be a very viable for-profit business that could start generating net income much more quickly, and essentially right of the chute, and help start building resources of all kinds to get something more tangible and concrete going. And, when it comes to the production side of the equation, marketing is usually the biggest challenge, so it would be killing multiple important birds with one stone.

I have some more concrete ideas along that line, but I'm curious to hear other peoples' thoughts. I've got to take off again this morning, and will probably be out of the discussion loop for a couple days, but will try to catch up again when I get back.
Excellent points, again, Tmac -- and the time may come in the not-too-distant future when gas is very pricey/unavailable -- and then we will NEED the local people's markets. Even BB (which we have also used, less so lately) won't work well with high-priced gasoline.

Jules wrote:
I dream of living this way! Thanks for this thread Dr. Jones! I've actually thought of trying to implement a cooperative/barter system/network among several of us from the forum who may be interested, and some individuals I know from outside of the forum. (If I remember correctly, mes5464 has shared similar thoughts in other threads.) We all have so many diverse resources and talents and abilities, and we all know that this is the type of system the Lord intended for us to live - sharing and cooperating and unselfishly doing what will make our communities successful, rather than living for the purpose of "getting gain". I'd love to be able to have a network of friends I could rely upon and share what I can offer - especially when the crap hits the fan. Thank you again for this brainstorming opportunity, I truly value yours and the input of the others on this thread!
This is a good idea, Jules! A thread where folks could offer items for sale, between ourselves mostly. I have a 2-acre lot up in the mountains above Spring City, in Pine Creek Ranches that is currently for sale (for example), but this is with a real estate agent for another few months... And where is that rifle I thought I might sell??

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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DrJones wrote: This is a good idea, Jules! A thread where folks could offer items for sale, between ourselves mostly. I have a 2-acre lot up in the mountains above Spring City, in Pine Creek Ranches that is currently for sale (for example), but this is with a real estate agent for another few months... And where is that rifle I thought I might sell??
How much are you asking for the 2 acres?

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Mes-- I'm asking $8k for the 2 acres in the mountains; negotiable part owner financing. By far the least expensive lot in Pine Creek Ranches -- where each lot as underground power and spring water available to it (piped in). But it is on a slope... neighbors have put in access roads and leveled out a spot; a guy would probably want to do that. See attached photo taken on the property last year.
2acres.jpg
2acres.jpg (202.9 KiB) Viewed 2280 times
Jules:
We have the "Exchange" section on the forum, viewforum.php?f=39 and maybe it's time to put it to good use and share, barter, sell, whatever - among those of us who are interested. Even in my current humble circumstances, I have plenty to share as well - and some things worthy of sale.

I've thought of doing this on a larger scale if it was possible. I mean if one of us has a fruit and vegetable farm, I'd love to trade eggs for produce on a regular basis. If someone has survival skills and knowledge, I'd love to learn from them - and teach herbology and homeopathy. If that concept grew into a community cooperative, where I knew I could go to a certain person for a need they could fulfill and trade for a skill or product or service they needed from me on a regular basis, it could be beneficial to all of us, especially already having something like that set up when things worsen in the world.
Right! totally agreed.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Couldn't agree more about all the exchange ideas. I'm a big believer in essentially all forms of alternative markets and exchange enterprises/venues. In the intermountain west, ksl.com actually creates a fairly phenomenal alternative market/exchange. We just need more -- of all kinds.

I also finally found the book I was referring to earlier: New Genesis -- A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. It includes an essay titled "The Mormon Village: Model for Sustainability," with the sub-heading: "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). In addition to the points I mentioned before, the following is a quote from that essay that I have always found to be profound and right on target.
Brigham Young had a clear concept of how the Great Basin should be developed. Based on Joseph Smith's model, the self-sufficient Mormon Village was replicated over and over again. A commonwealth of villages was the intended result, a community of communities. Each village controlled its own water, food and fuel resources, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land. Irrigation systems developed through cooperation were responsible for the success of these dynamic new communities. The Mormon village exerted a strong influence on other planned communities in the West that somehow never achieved equal success.
. . . .

The Mormon pioneer village was an extraordinary example of a sustainable community. The pioneers knew well the critical systems on which they both depended and survived. Water from winter snow, stored in some form of reservoir, fed the planted fields in the hot dry summer. Fuel was harvested from the surrounding forest. LIfe was organized around the resources of the countryside, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land and natural resources.
. . . .

Despite the success of the Mormon village in an agrarian society, it never made an adequate adjustment to the industrial society. Unlike the Amish who held fast to their agrarian roots, the Mormon culture moved toward mainstream America and abandoned its agrarian tradition., Today, Utah is like any other western state; its main crop is hay for feeding cattle. Virtually all of its food and much of its fuel is imported, and fresh water in the mountains is no longer safe to drink. Self-sufficiency is a thing of the past.


Otherwise, I have some more food for thought for cooperative productive enterprises. I'll save that for a separate post.
Last edited by tmac on January 28th, 2012, 8:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

Sorry, double post. How/why does that happen?

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

I just learned about this tonight. I think it might be help.

Cottage Industry Laws

I haven't found much. Maybe one of you can look into Utah to see if they exist there.
Here is what I have found.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=359500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://sites.google.com/site/thepatrio ... stries-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.eatwellfoodtour.com/2009/06/ ... -laws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18668/ ... dustry-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

tmac wrote:Couldn't agree more about all the exchange ideas. I'm a big believer in essentially all forms of alternative markets and exchange enterprises/venues. In the intermountain west, ksl.com actually creates a fairly phenomenal alternative market/exchange. We just need more -- of all kinds.

I also finally found the book I was referring to earlier: New Genesis -- A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. It includes an essay titled "The Mormon Village: Model for Sustainability," with the sub-heading: "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). In addition to the points I mentioned before, the following is a quote from that essay that I have always found to be profound and right on target.
Brigham Young had a clear concept of how the Great Basin should be developed. Based on Joseph Smith's model, the self-sufficient Mormon Village was replicated over and over again. A commonwealth of villages was the intended result, a community of communities. Each village controlled its own water, food and fuel resources, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land. Irrigation systems developed through cooperation were responsible for the success of these dynamic new communities. The Mormon village exerted a strong influence on other planned communities in the West that somehow never achieved equal success.
. . . .

The Mormon pioneer village was an extraordinary example of a sustainable community. The pioneers knew well the critical systems on which they both depended and survived. Water from winter snow, stored in some form of reservoir, fed the planted fields in the hot dry summer. Fuel was harvested from the surrounding forest. LIfe was organized around the resources of the countryside, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land and natural resources.
. . . .

Despite the success of the Mormon village in an agrarian society, it never made an adequate adjustment to the industrial society. Unlike the Amish who held fast to their agrarian roots, the Mormon culture moved toward mainstream America and abandoned its agrarian tradition., Today, Utah is like any other western state; its main crop is hay for feeding cattle. Virtually all of its food and much of its fuel is imported, and fresh water in the mountains is no longer safe to drink. Self-sufficiency is a thing of the past.


Otherwise, I have some more food for thought for cooperative productive enterprises. I'll save that for a separate post.
WOW! That is profoundly true.

I hope I have the faith to help turn it around because right now it feels daunting.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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mes5464 wrote:I just learned about this tonight. I think it might be help.

Cottage Industry Laws

I haven't found much. Maybe one of you can look into Utah to see if they exist there.
Here is what I have found.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=359500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://sites.google.com/site/thepatrio ... stries-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.eatwellfoodtour.com/2009/06/ ... -laws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18668/ ... dustry-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How kind of a generous government to allow people to do those things, as long as they still at least make sure the proper cut of the proceeds gets properly submitted....

We used to live in a country where everything was legal that wasn't prohibited by law... now it looks like permission and compliance efforts are necessary for nearly everything. Wouldn't it be nice for this sort of thing to step back and only look at crimes with a victim, like fraud or intentionally unsafe products.

How did we survive for so many thousands of years without all of this government protection?

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Here is what Wiki has to say. It isn't much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_in ... e_industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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mes5464 wrote:Here is what Wiki has to say. It isn't much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_in ... e_industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks mes. This is an interesting article in general, beyond the cottage industry section. The concept of a larger distributor or brand acting on behalf of various small manufacturers is interesting. There might be issues with uniformity, but that could be part of the appeal for certain types of goods.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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The OP taught me at BYU that unless we can think in terms of natural law, common sense will never get at the correct answer. When it comes to monetary theory, the Milton Freidman equation is the law:

dM/dt (money supply) + dV/dt (velocity) = inflation + dR/dt (real output)

This equation explains everything about the operation of money in an economy. Thanks to this equation, Japan was transformed from a feudal society during WW2 to a First World Economy in just 30 years. Think of that miracle.

During a few years of the Tribulation, bartering and Mercantile-money system (take commodity to bank that creates and issues money sufficient to purchase commodity) will be useful. However, when it comes to building Zion, and restoring America after the Burning of Babylon, we are going to need a efficient and equitable monetary system.

The 30-year Japanese Miracle depended on several factors. What we are talking about is a phenomenal growth in Real Output while controlling inflation.

1. Money Supply. The key here is making loans and determining credit worthiness. If an individual or group has an idea, and they can prove feasibility, then money should be created to make it happen.

What I have been saying with my Safety Society System is the patented idea, the land, machinery, proven oil reserves in the ground can serve as the redeemable backing and collateral for the loan and money creation.

Infinite money can be created and infinite loans can be issued which will never cause inflation because money creation will always be perfectly in-line with real output.

2. Velocity. This has to do with how technology can increase the rate of transactions. The more transactions per unit time = more real output.

A. Identity. Need to establish who is who
B. Property Rights. Need to know who owns what.
C. Rule of Law. Need established rules to transfer property from one person to another.
D. Represent real assets by paper, or electronically (increases velocity because if you had to transport asset to sell it, transport costs and time are a drag. Problems arise when paper and electronic entries are not tied to anything of value. This undermines faith and social capital)

E. World-wide electronic markets [EBay]. Helps sellers find buyers. However, this is bad for commodities. If there was a drought in the Midwest. Brazilian corn could outcompete domestic corn. Therefore, domestic prices should reflect the actual cost to produce corn and tarrifs should protect domestic producers in a difficult year.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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davedan wrote:The OP taught me at BYU that unless we can think in terms of natural law, common sense will never get at the correct answer. When it comes to monetary theory, the Milton Freidman equation is the law:

dM/dt (money supply) + dV/dt (velocity) = inflation + dR/dt (real output)

This equation explains everything about the operation of money in an economy. Thanks to this equation, Japan was transformed from a feudal society during WW2 to a First World Economy in just 30 years. Think of that miracle.


How would an equation do any such thing? The Japanese economic expansion was driven by new opportunities for trade and by hard work by a people trying to reestablish their place in the world following a military defeat. To this day Japanese people from CEOs to assembly line workers consider their contribution to their organization and community to be the most important part of their lives.

All that equation, or more precisely the Keynesian variation of it, has done is resulted in an economy that is stagnating and burdened by significant public and private debt.
davedan wrote:During a few years of the Tribulation, bartering and Mercantile-money system (take commodity to bank that creates and issues money sufficient to purchase commodity) will be useful. However, when it comes to building Zion, and restoring America after the Burning of Babylon, we are going to need a efficient and equitable monetary system.
This gets to your real point, it seems. On this, I couldn't disagree more and I doubt we'll see debt-based currency in a Zion. There is both no need, and the inequality and harm it would cause would be undesirable.

Throughout history prosperity has not happened because of any sort of monetary system, it has happened as a natural result of people working hard to improve their lives in the absence of violent interference (either as war or political domination and taxation).

This is true of the United State just after WWII when the tax rates were reduced and a period of peace allowed for huge prosperity and economic expansion. This was also true of the Saints in the mountain west in the early provincial period with government that focused on peace and economic coordination as opposed to economic control and a class of bureaucrats that produces nothing but control and force. Once the federal government eliminated the more local government and instituted various policies as a condition of statehood, things took a big step back and have continued to since.

When people are free to trade, they figure out ways of doing so. There is no need for a fiat currency backed only by threats of force as all non-value-backed currencies are.
davedan wrote:The 30-year Japanese Miracle depended on several factors. What we are talking about is a phenomenal growth in Real Output while controlling inflation.

1. Money Supply. The key here is making loans and determining credit worthiness. If an individual or group has an idea, and they can prove feasibility, then money should be created to make it happen.

What I have been saying with my Safety Society System is the patented idea, the land, machinery, proven oil reserves in the ground can serve as the redeemable backing and collateral for the loan and money creation.

Infinite money can be created and infinite loans can be issued which will never cause inflation because money creation will always be perfectly in-line with real output.


Sorry, but you cannot add money to the supply based on assets alone without decreasing the value of the money already there. Production is a combination of resources and work, so if you loan based on expected production and that expected production does not materialize, then the monetary inflation will lead to: price inflation, centralization of wealth (no matter how "small" the fees and whether or not there is interest for such loans), and for the person stuck with the loan it would result in long-term indebtedness which is just a form of "free-range" slavery.

Loans based on expected production constantly go wrong, and loans based on assets also cause problems when commodity prices are not constantly increasing. Loans based on assets push more currency into the marketplace and cause those price increases, just like real estate for a couple of decades before 2007, but eventually debt saturation will occur and there will be significant economic damage.
davedan wrote:2. Velocity. This has to do with how technology can increase the rate of transactions. The more transactions per unit time = more real output.
Actually, technology is not needed for monetary velocity. It's not how quickly money can be moved around, but rather how quickly the money is spent after it is received. An increase in velocity does not necessarily mean an increase in real output, it can also result in price inflation (and in a panic, that's exactly what happens... people spend now based on anticipated needs and speculation of future value in other areas instead of saving, and this increased demand increases all sorts of prices).

Velocity isn't always a good thing. Saving money or assets helps protect against future want, allows for investment in larger endeavors, and following more productive periods allows for human effort in more meaningful or pleasurable things instead of just pure production. Saving is the basis of any stable economy, and no, some faulty idea about easy money through asset-backed loans cannot replace it.

Technology can make markets more efficient and can reduce human labor needed for many things. Good information about existing and projected supply and demand can help people make better decisions about what to produce and whether more effort needs to go into providing for basic needs versus other human endeavors beyond our basic needs as mortals.

Of course, if we were immortal most economic activity would be very different as there would never be concerns over insufficient food or shelter or clean water and sanitation. It's a funny thing to consider as the time value of money wouldn't have the same meaning since it would be easy to have zero expenses for millennia if need be to allow your assets to appreciate through loans or investment... kind of funny to think about.

Technology can be used to facilitate records of assets and facilitate transfer, but there is no need to have a fiat currency for that... and in fact it would be way more valuable and effective for asset-backed notes.

The stuff you mentioned about identity and property records are interesting. Wouldn't it be great to have a government that you could trust enough to have that information without using it to steal from you (as our current government does... in fact that is the primary reason for most of their record keeping).

In general aside from using force to counter theft or fraud, it has no place in a free society or marketplace. Anything that relies on it to function efficiently, even using a tariff to manipulate the economy or interfere with free trade, shows a weakness in the intended system as well as representing an immoral application of force. There are ways to tariffs that don't do these things (if you can trust the government with that...), and also better ways to fund justified government actions that represent societal application of force so that people don't have to (ie punishment of crimes involving agression, theft, fraud, etc).

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Jonesde, I agree with you.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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SSS miney is not "debt-based". SSS money is "asset-based". All bank loans are redeemable by a real asset. SSS just recognizes that loans are a major point of money supply creation.

Yes, I agree that "projected production" sometimes falls short. But sometimes production exceeds projections. To correct for inflation and excess money on the system, the Federal government can tax by raising inteerst rates on loans. This interest rate constitutes a constitutional voluntary excise tax on the use of credit.

I am all in support of a limited federal government. However, our inspired Constitution actually gives certain specific powers to the Federal Government. How about we have our Government actually do what it's supposed to and get out of the business of what its not supposed to do.

Constitution says tarrifs are Constitutional except between states.

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