People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

Sorry, tmac, I'm afraid I didn't do very well presenting my point. My main thought was that for the farmer's market the profit for those involved could come from what they produce and the sales they make, with less emphasis on making money off the location itself. IE nobody's sitting back charging fees to vendors, parking fees, or other things that would discourage attendance. As long as someone is willing to allow the market on their land, it seems to me the location is the smallest concern.

A bigger concern would be finding enough people who produce desirable things, finding enough people to buy those things, and making sure they have a safe, friendly environment in which to do so. And I think it goes without saying that to keep it safe and friendly keeping the government from interfering is a must.

I agree that Sanpete isn't perfect. For one thing local corruption is definitely in evidence. I had some experience with trying to work with real estate in Ephraim, and ran into a lot of stonewalling from the city. Coincidentally, a few members of the city council owned student housing complexes and didn't seem keen on the prospect of competition.

Not to mention the fact that in spite of reasonably low crime rate every small town has its shiny new police car pulling folks over and giving tickets to pay the bills on the large fancy city halls and courthouses. I passed one on my way to the Post Office just a few weeks ago, and oddly enough the sight of that car sirens blazing while the officer wrote out a ticket to a neighbor didn't make me feel much safer.

Not that I'm bitter.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

My main thought was that for the farmer's market the profit for those involved could come from what they produce and the sales they make, with less emphasis on making money off the location itself. IE nobody's sitting back charging fees to vendors, parking fees, or other things that would discourage attendance. As long as someone is willing to allow the market on their land, it seems to me the location is the smallest concern.

A bigger concern would be finding enough people who produce desirable things, finding enough people to buy those things, and making sure they have a safe, friendly environment in which to do so. And I think it goes without saying that to keep it safe and friendly keeping the government from interfering is a must.
Good point(s)! . . . and I completely agree.

I've said this in similar contexts before, but anyone who is really serious about doing this, and has the time and resources should be in Elm Mott, Texas on Labor Day Weekend for the Sorghum Festival or Thanksgiving Weekend for the Homestead Fair sponsored by Homestead Heritage -- a group that is already doing everything that has been described very impressively and successfully (in my opinion).

http://www.homesteadheritage.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.homesteadcraftfair.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I agree that Sanpete isn't perfect. For one thing local corruption is definitely in evidence. I had some experience with trying to work with real estate in Ephraim, and ran into a lot of stonewalling from the city. Coincidentally, a few members of the city council owned student housing complexes and didn't seem keen on the prospect of competition.

Not to mention the fact that in spite of reasonably low crime rate every small town has its shiny new police car pulling folks over and giving tickets to pay the bills on the large fancy city halls and courthouses. I passed one on my way to the Post Office just a few weeks ago, and oddly enough the sight of that car sirens blazing while the officer wrote out a ticket to a neighbor didn't make me feel much safer.
Unfortunately, it's everywhere. And when it comes to government, I haven't necessarily found Sanpete County (or any place else) to have any corner on the market when it comes to virtue, liberty, freedom, accountability or constitutional uprightness -- if it did, what would be the challenge? Obviously, that's one of the tasks that lies ahead.

Fairminded, you've talked something about your background before, and it has stuck in my mind. I just want you to know that I have been impressed with many of your posts, and I can tell that this whole concept is something that really kind of "spins your wheels." That's exciting to see. I'm going to post something that may be apropos to the situation -- especially for the young bucks in the discussion.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

Fairminded, this article talks about some groups where you might find yourself in some very good company.
Young urban farmers provide reasons to believe
by Jim Gerrish (Stockman Grass Farmer, Jan. 2012)

I have been going to conferences for over 30 years now encompassing a wide variety of topics,
mostly related to agriculture, resource, or food. Of course, if we are serious about eating healthy
food, then we must also be serious about resources and agriculture. And if we are serious about
agriculture, then we must be serious about food. And if we don’t take care of all of our resources we
will have even greater food issues than we have now. It is all so interrelated we really cannot
separate issues of food, agriculture, and natural resources.

A lot of you know Dawn and I are foodies on this end of the thread and many of you also know we
are strongly involved in the alternative ag and food sector. I don’t get to go to many conferences that
involve serious natural resource management, alternative agriculture themes, and the Real Food
movement all in one place. That’s where we went last November. The venue was the Quivira
Coalition 10 Annual Conference in Albuquerque NM. It easily ranks in the top 5 conferences I have
attended over the last 32 years. It gives me reason to believe in the future of farming and ranching,
food vs. commodities, and the youth of America. For more information, check out their website at
http://www.quiviracoalition.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and look at the program for the 2011 Annual Conference.

I opened the conference with a one-day workshop with the theme of Ranching in the 21st Century
attended by 270 people, about half of whom were under 30 years of age which is pretty unusual for
an ag conference these days. Most of them didn’t look like your typical farm kids. While that might
seem unremarkable to some of you, put it in this context. The average age of farmers and ranchers
in the US is 58 while the average age of beef producers is 63. We are not a healthy industry. After
years of farm and ranch parents telling their kids to go to town and get a job, we are about out of the
chance for the next generation returning to the farm or ranch.

But into the fray step a bunch of enthusiastic punk urban farmers and ranchers. I got a lot of thank
you’s from many of them for my recent columns in SGF discussing appropriate education for
beginning farmers and ranchers. I had advocated basic liberal arts education and that is from where
most of this group has come. These guys and gals are coming from a different background than
young people who grew up on farms and ranches.

Visit this website for exciting information on this movement: http://www.thegreenhorns.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There are
over 7,000 young farmers and ranchers in this group which has only existed for about four years. If
they had told me this group had 700 members, I would have been impressed. This is the Facebook,
Twitter, and other social media farming movement. They have barn raisings, tree plantings, chicken
killings, and all kinds of other old fashioned community farming activities called together across
cyberspace just like the hoods in Philadelphia call together spontaneous riots.

They are involved in everything from rooftop gardens in big cities ( http://rooftopfarms.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to
going back to the country and living with Grandma or Aunt Irene and taking over the family farm
( http://www.masumoto.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). From a Vietnamese college student fighting for food justice to city
kids doing on-farm butchering, it was an inspirational group. What makes me even more excited for
the future of pasture-based farming is almost none of them are vegetarians. As Severine von
Tschaner Fleming, founder of the Greenhorns, said in her presentation, “Nothing sexier than a hot
young man butchering a hog.” Maybe not her exact words, but the meaning was clear. These young
people are up to their elbows in working with the land and livestock and they’re excited about it.
Severine’s presentation at Quivira may have been the best I have ever seen at any conference anywhere
in the world. One after another, these young people got up and told their stories and presented their visions
for the future of American agriculture. It’s not one a lot of people in mainstream agriculture have seen or
heard before. Farm Bureau and NCBA might not like it, but those organizations are not providing
the regeneration of agriculture and the repopulating of rural areas. We need new blood in this
industry and here is an opportunity for ag revitalization.

Too many of my generation (the over 55 crowd) believe kids today are lazy, selfish, and all they
want to do is play video games and watch TV. What I heard from these kids is they are tired of
convenience, having everything easy, and no interface with the real world. They are not afraid to get
their hands dirty, but they are also not interested in a subsistence existence. This is not the ‘back to
earth’ movement of the 1960s and 70s. I saw enough of that earlier movement to know this is
something completely different. They want to make a good living off the land, not just survive. They
are into product development and diversification, aggressive marketing, and a very capitalistic
approach to farming, but with social justice as a core belief.


As a result of the three days we spent with this group, Dawn and I got fully recharged and inspired
to continue to run the good race and fight the good fight. I finally have reason to believe the future
of American agriculture is a little brighter than I thought it might be. We’re already planning to see
them again next year. Maybe you should do likewise.

Real food from real people. We love it and encourage you to visit some of the links I have listed.

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

Thanks for that, tmac. I agree that is exciting to see a younger generation wanting to leave the cities and get back to a simpler and more productive lifestyle. To be honest I can't stand big cities like the Utah Valley or Salt Lake areas. From increasingly ludicrous traffic to winter inversions, to watching people walk around eyes downward, barely acknowledging those around them, it just doesn't work for me.

I've mentioned in another post that as soon as heating and air conditioning became widespread people by and large abandoned the old practical houses most well-adapted to the local climate in favor of the poorly insulated aboveground frame and wallboard, completely forgetting all the learning of the past in favor of completely relying on current technology. If heating and air conditioning were to go away along with power, their situations would be much worsened, and they'd either have to relearn what previous generations knew or find those who had that knowledge.

I bring this up because I view first world countries' shift to heavily populated urban environments in much the same way. As soon as we got the ability to cheaply mass produce and ship necessary items, we threw all our previous learning and stable lifestyles out the window and became completely dependent on it. Since our current lifestyles are so heavily dependent on abundant fossil fuel energy, any failure of supply would essentially bring us back to pioneer day living. Only we no longer have the skills to live that way, so many, many people in urban cities would find their situations dire in only a few weeks. Their highly technical specialized educations wouldn't help too much in the general day to day necessities.

So it's heartening to see younger people leaving the cities and learning to farm and ranch and butcher with their own hands. I have a feeling in a true collapse they'll find themselves in a much better situation, with skills they'll need to not only survive but prosper.

I'm going to look further into the organization, thanks for providing the link.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

Fairminded, I'm not exactly sure how it fits this discussion (although it may really fit), and I didn't say anything at the time, but your post (on another thread) about underground construction and passive solar design was actually one of the ones I really liked. I couldn't agree more with all the points you made. UG/PS construction is something that I'm likewise very interested in and have been for some time. I was very impressed with your presentation of the information. Sounds like you've studied it quite a bit and know what you're talking about.

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

tmac wrote:Fairminded, I'm not exactly sure how it fits this discussion (although it may really fit), and I didn't say anything at the time, but your post (on another thread) about underground construction and passive solar design was actually one of the ones I really liked. I couldn't agree more with all the points you made. UG/PS construction is something that I'm likewise very interested in and have been for some time. I was very impressed with your presentation of the information. Sounds like you've studied it quite a bit and know what you're talking about.
Thanks, I've looked into it a bit, mostly Earthship designs and a few books by people who've built their own earth-bermed structures. Most of my experience comes from helping to construct a few, featuring two buried shipping containers with a space between and a roof over it all.

Yes, a bit off topic for this thread, unless the people's market had customers with a need for labor or expertise involving such a structure :).

jonesde
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

tmac wrote: Otherwise, just a couple additional observations, particularly about Sanpete County.
Thanks for your post tmac, this brings up some... less than great... memories about living in Sanpete.

BTW, real quick, Gunnison is actually in Sevier county so it doesn't suffer from the rule of the Petty Tyrants in Manti.

Before getting into govt related stuff, I had a few small issues with vandalism and property theft and destruction while living there, including graffiti from the MS13 gang. Still, it was all pretty minor stuff. Most of the violation of rights I experienced in Sanpete had nothing to do with gangs or drugs (though there is certainly plenty of drug activity in Sanpete), but rather from the "watchers" themselves. As always, who watches the watchers?

There are some famous stories in Sanpete, like the school board a few years back quietly giving themselves the maximum raises allowed over a period of years until they all had incomes well over six figures.

I've personally had some bad experiences (aside from hearing scary stories) with power-hungry building inspectors and incompetent fire chiefs (the guy was new, but that is no justification for creating arbitrary policy that was clearly not required by law or even state policy, even if the Salt Lake big-wig the guy called in thought that city policy there should be applied in Sanpete as well).

I've also experienced cops that refused to arrest or even detain drunk friends caught in trespassing and harassment. Later one of the same cops along with the police chief of that town threatened me with felony theft for refusing to turn over some property of an ex-tenant who was a friend of theirs (or more likely someone they felt sorry for). I was in the middle of a legal dispute with that tenant, and ended up spending more on legal fees to convince the local thugs that not only was there no criminal aspect to the situation, but I had no civil liability either. The cops backed down and admitted it was an unfounded threat, but never apologized and probably got a good kick out of how much they got away with through some simple threats of violence.

Fortunately I've had some good experiences with police as well, and even have family and friends in law enforcement, but I do have the bureaucrats and cops of Sanpete County and a couple of cities within it to thank for my increased interest in constitutional government and general liberty-friendly principles of government. To this day when I think of petty tyrants in government protecting their frankly pitiful little fiefdoms, I have a few faces and names to associate with examples of organized "legal" crime, violently enforced monopolies, and the smug wealthy "gentlemen" of the community who collaborate with government for these purposes.

It's a lot different when you experience these things on a local level and meet some of the people involved, including a man who was my Stake President for a short time. In state and national politics you hear these stories all the time but it is distant and doesn't seem so real. When you experience this face to face or you are the one compromised by direct and overt government action, things get real in a hurry.

This is a big reason why I wouldn't want money or even want to give explicit permission if my land in Sanpete was used for a barter fair. The more plausible deniability I have, and the less documented proof they have, the better.

Actually, frankly I'd love to locate somewhere else, but I end up spending a lot of time in Sanpete because I have family in that area, especially my son who lives with my ex-wife in American Fork (and I don't want to have a place or spend much time up there so Sanpete is close enough and also far enough away).

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Before this thread started I and my wife had received personal revelation that we were to move to Sanpete County. At first I just thought it was going to be about getting a job in a nice rural place so I could raise my kids.

After reading many of the comments on this thread, I started to wonder, why am I being called to Sanpete? What am I supposed to do when I get there? The job prospect I was seeking hasn't materialized so why is Father sending me to Sanpete?

This morning I went to Father in prayer, specifically asking what I am expected to do when I get to Sanpete. Then I turned to the scriptures and this is the answer I believe I received.

The following section is all about Father/Jesus cleaning out the corruption in the church/kingdom. I likened this unto myself, and the names have changed but the story is the same.
D&C 64
...
12 And him that repenteth not of his sins, and confesseth them not, ye shall bring before the church, and do with him as the scripture saith unto you, either by commandment or by revelation.

13 And this ye shall do that God may be glorified—not because ye forgive not, having not compassion, but that ye may be justified in the eyes of the law, that ye may not offend him who is your lawgiver

14 Verily I say, for this cause ye shall do these things.

15 Behold, I, the Lord, was angry with him who was my servant Ezra Booth, and also my servant Isaac Morley, for they kept not the law, neither the commandment;

16 They sought evil in their hearts, and I, the Lord, withheld my Spirit. They condemned for evil that thing in which there was no evil; [Peoples Market, debt free currency, self-reliance, liberty, the Constitution, ...] nevertheless I have forgiven my servant Isaac Morley.
...
19 And that which he hath seen and heard may be made known unto my disciples, that they perish not. [Aren't we trying not to perish? What do those in our local government know that they aren't telling?] And for this cause have I spoken these things.
...
23 Behold, now it is called today until the coming of the Son of Man, and verily it is a day of sacrifice, and a day for the tithing of my people; for he that is tithed shall not be burned at his coming.

24 For after today cometh the burning—this is speaking after the manner of the Lord—for verily I say, tomorrow all the proud and they that do wickedly shall be as stubble; and I will burn them up, for I am the Lord of Hosts; and I will not spare any that remain in Babylon.

25 Wherefore, if ye believe me, ye will labor while it is called today. [We need to act now, while it is still today!]

...

27 Behold, it is said in my laws, or forbidden, to get in debt to thine enemies; [China, LDGs, Banksters. This is just one of the things we must clean up.]

30 And he hath set you to provide for his saints in these last days, that they may obtain an inheritance in the land of Zion. [Are we not talking about providing for the saints in this very thread?]

31 And behold, I, the Lord, declare unto you, and my words are sure and shall not fail, that they shall obtain it. [We must have faith. We are called and we are commanded to succeed.]

32 But all things must come to pass in their time. [I think the time is now.]

33 Wherefore, be not weary in well-doing, for ye are laying the foundation of a great work. And out of small things proceedeth that which is great.

34 Behold, the Lord requireth the heart and a willing mind; and the willing and obedient shall eat the good of the land of Zion in these last days. [Are we not talking about trying to ensure that there is something good to eat in the land of Zion in the last days?]

35 And the rebellious shall be cut off out of the land of Zion, and shall be sent away, and shall not inherit the land. [It is time for the rebellious to go!]

36 For, verily I say that the rebellious are not of the blood of Ephraim, wherefore they shall be plucked out.

37 Behold, I, the Lord, have made my church in these last days like unto a judge sitting on a hill, or in a high place, to judge the nations.

38 For it shall come to pass that the inhabitants of Zion shall judge all things pertaining to Zion. [The inhabitants, the citizens, the people, the saints!]

39 And liars and hypocrites shall be proved by them, and they who are not apostles and prophets shall be known.

40 And even the bishop, who is a judge, and his counselors, if they are not faithful in their stewardships shall be condemned, and others shall be planted in their stead. [It is time to clean the inner vessel of the church.]

41 For, behold, I say unto you that Zion shall flourish, and the glory of the Lord shall be upon her;

42 And she shall be an ensign unto the people, and there shall come unto her out of every nation under heaven. [Haven't we been told that people will flee to Zion with bundles under their arms and their children on their shoulders?]

43 And the day shall come when the nations of the earth shall tremble because of her, and shall fear because of her terrible ones. The Lord hath spoken it. Amen.

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Jason »

mes5464 wrote:It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.
Amen and Amen! Hence the closer in 2 Nephi 10:15...and the plague....etc etc etc

A few thoughts this morning on currency and the business model tmac has discussed. I would think that the easiest way to implement some sort of currency on a small trial basis (introduction) would be in the format of using it in a bazaar type setting. For example people exchange silver, gold, FRNs, etc for coins or paper that are then used to trade within the bazaar (swap meet). Sort of like trading FRNs for coins to use in a video game arcade. One could make the coins or paper represent whatever they want - weight of gold, silver, copper, etc. That would mean that everyone within the bazaar would be buying/selling with that currency (officially rounds with no face value?).

A couple hurdles....what do you take in trade for your new currency? Or in other words what do you peg it to? silver, gold, etc??? Is that native, electrum, junk, sterling, 900, 925, silver flashed metal, nickel mix, etc...silver? Do you now need an assayer on site?

Does this add another dimension to the business start-up making it even more difficult to get off the ground? Bring on potential legal hassles that would stifle the business?

One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?

Also a couple thoughts on profit. Profit is an essential requirement of doing business. It basically represents the value added by the company to the goods or tools that the company acquires. Profit is requisite for future business expansion/investment.

As I understand the Law of Consecration....the entire focus of the LOC is on profit....or value added. The beauty of the LOC is that when a person/business reaches the point where profits cannot be invested to obtain further profit....they then go back into the pool (nest egg) to fuel investment somewhere else. In other words, when the individual/business cannot add any more value in whatever endeavor they are engaged in.....rather than then (or prior to reaching that point) siphoning off profits to build a bigger house higher up the hill that adds little if any additional value (or even destroys value).....the profits are turned over to others via the agent bishop (individual) or high council (business) to be invested elsewhere. The focus is on stewardship and ultimately in adding value (profitability - parable of the talents).

I believe that when this is implemented....along with proper government structure (rule of judges - as established by Moses and espoused by Cleon Skousen???)....standard of living will accelerate at a pace not seen in the history of the world (perhaps with a few minor exceptions - City of Enoch, etc).

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

Jason wrote:
mes5464 wrote:It seems from everyone's posts that it will require intervention into local government (having our own people run for positions) so that we can begin to clean up the corruption. We don't stand a chance if we don't clean up corruption.
Amen and Amen! Hence the closer in 2 Nephi 10:15...and the plague....etc etc etc

A few thoughts this morning on currency and the business model tmac has discussed. I would think that the easiest way to implement some sort of currency on a small trial basis (introduction) would be in the format of using it in a bazaar type setting. For example people exchange silver, gold, FRNs, etc for coins or paper that are then used to trade within the bazaar (swap meet). Sort of like trading FRNs for coins to use in a video game arcade. One could make the coins or paper represent whatever they want - weight of gold, silver, copper, etc. That would mean that everyone within the bazaar would be buying/selling with that currency (officially rounds with no face value?).

A couple hurdles....what do you take in trade for your new currency? Or in other words what do you peg it to? silver, gold, etc??? Is that native, electrum, junk, sterling, 900, 925, silver flashed metal, nickel mix, etc...silver? Do you now need an assayer on site?

Does this add another dimension to the business start-up making it even more difficult to get off the ground? Bring on potential legal hassles that would stifle the business?

One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?

Also a couple thoughts on profit. Profit is an essential requirement of doing business. It basically represents the value added by the company to the goods or tools that the company acquires. Profit is requisite for future business expansion/investment.

As I understand the Law of Consecration....the entire focus of the LOC is on profit....or value added. The beauty of the LOC is that when a person/business reaches the point where profits cannot be invested to obtain further profit....they then go back into the pool (nest egg) to fuel investment somewhere else. In other words, when the individual/business cannot add any more value in whatever endeavor they are engaged in.....rather than then (or prior to reaching that point) siphoning off profits to build a bigger house higher up the hill that adds little if any additional value (or even destroys value).....the profits are turned over to others via the agent bishop (individual) or high council (business) to be invested elsewhere. The focus is on stewardship and ultimately in adding value (profitability - parable of the talents).

I believe that when this is implemented....along with proper government structure (rule of judges - as established by Moses and espoused by Cleon Skousen???)....standard of living will accelerate at a pace not seen in the history of the world (perhaps with a few minor exceptions - City of Enoch, etc).
An alternative to a trade currency used solely within the market would be to have someone at the market performing the role of moneychanger. If he had a decent supply of gold and silver rounds, junk silver, and FRNs, he could, say, exchange FRNs for silver so people could make purchases from those unwilling to take FRNs, or vice versa. He could then invest those FRNs in enlarging his supply of precious metals and supplying them to the market as an alternative form of stable currency.

I'm not necessarily opposed to the idea of alternative currency in the form of notes or IOUs, but I'd like to avoid it if necessary, and it seems like there's other means of achieving the same effects that entail less risk. I've read a bit on the bank Joseph Smith implemented in the early days of the Church, and how enemies of the church manipulated the bank notes it produced to essentially make them worthless and bring great financial hardship to Joseph and other prominent members who'd supported the bank with large investments. The moment something becomes official, its enemies have something to attack.

I agree completely with your thoughts on the Law of Consecration and profits. I think one of the major flaws of today's businesses is that all efforts are confined to that business, so that when it's reached its maximum potential it either continues trying to expand past feasible boundaries, or it oversteps in some other way.

Reading the Work and the Glory series by Gerald Lund, I was very impressed by the way he presented the Steed family. It was a fairly large family that continued getting larger as time passed and children married. All had their various talents and interests and prospered within them. Then, as younger members of the family (or married-in members), decided it was time to begin providing for themselves, they would find an area they had expertise in, or one they thought the community needed, and the family would pitch in what they could spare of time and money to help that person get going in that venture. In that way everyone prospered as a need was taken care of.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

I agree with everything Jason just posted.

I like the idea of the market making business easier by handling the business license.
They could also process the sales tax at the end when the merchant trades the rounds back in for FRNs/gold/silver?
These features would make it easy for a single person to make "something" and then just come to the bazaar and sell it without hassles.
Then, if they are successful enough, they may just open a brick and mortar store of their own.

I know the following is dreaming big:

What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

mes5464 wrote:What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?
We could house it in the Wal Mart building after we drive it out of business! Yeah!

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Fairminded wrote:
mes5464 wrote:What if the bazaar got to the point that it was enclosed like a mall? If that the wrong way to go?
We could house it in the Wal Mart building after we drive it out of business! Yeah!
W00T! I support that!

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 30#p255461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Was it that bad?

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

I don't think it's so much that we're ignoring it, mes5464. I know I read it through and appreciated the scriptures you'd found and the way you applied them to our situation. I was considering thanking you for providing them but laziness got in the way :), as well as thinking that I didn't really have much to add.

As to being inspired to move to Sanpete, I do know several people in Missouri who were inspired to move there and were doing their best to faithfully prosper themselves and follow the Lord's guidance. I admire anyone who follows such promptings, although I do have a word of caution (probably unnecessary from what I've read of your posts). Simply that you "look before you leap". Being inspired to do something doesn't always mean immediately drop everything and do it. Especially when it comes to something as dramatic as moving across the country, it's wise to make sure you find some prospects before doing so. I believe that where the Lord wills, He will open a way.

That said, I understand that to go back to my Missouri example, talking to the members there they've spoken of those who DID move there following promptings of the Spirit, but they did so pell-mell without plan or preparation and ended up in a fairly dire situation on arrival and became a burden on the local saints. A few even became bitter at their situation.

I'm glad you're searching the scriptures on this matter, but also that you're searching for opportunities in the area before committing. I hope one presents itself.

DrJay
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by DrJay »

mes5464 wrote:Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 30#p255461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Was it that bad?
Not at all. Just be careful. Make sure that direction is from the Lord. Sometimes we want something so bad, we don't recognize a true prompting. I'm not saying one way or the other. Personal revelation is just that. If it is revelation - then do your part to make it happen.

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Jason »

DrJay wrote:
mes5464 wrote:Everyone seems to be ignoring my post at
http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopi ... 30#p255461" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Was it that bad?
Not at all. Just be careful. Make sure that direction is from the Lord. Sometimes we want something so bad, we don't recognize a true prompting. I'm not saying one way or the other. Personal revelation is just that. If it is revelation - then do your part to make it happen.
....my take as well....thus leaving it at that.

I've had a few hand wringers that nearly all (if not all) of my family members, friends, business associates, church members, and church leaders thought I was plumb crazy. At the end of the last major one two leaders (on separate occasions and unknown to my knowledge by the other) referred to it as my own little personal Zion's Camp (went out and back w/o seeming to accomplish anything in the middle except gain knowledge/experience) which I am still paying the bills for....but I have been blessed as promised (though I was highly doubtful when I received that promise - something along the lines of "I'll believe it when I see it")....and a way has been provided for my escape.

Best of luck and more importantly, blessings, to you and your family in your hurdles through life!

jonesde
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

Jason wrote: One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?
Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.

Personally, I prefer the working around the law approach. I don't really like the idea of funding violent gangsters any more than I have to. A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).

For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).

This reminds me of the recent movie "Larry Crowne" with Tom Hanks. In it one of his neighbors had a perpetual garage sale in his front yard, and it seemed to be his full-time occupation. What an idea... forget opening a retail outlet, just run it as a perpetual garage sale in your front yard!

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Jason
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Jason »

jonesde wrote:
Jason wrote: One of the ways that the swap meet adds value besides bringing buyer and seller together.....can be reducing legal framework. For example I go home teaching to a gentleman who deals in antiques. When he goes to a show he's provided a business license for that show thus reducing the legal quagmire he has to swim through to buy and sell.

If you set up a "legal" trading scheme (currency) within the bazaar....would it do away with sales tax issues? business licenses - federal/state/local? etc....

Is there some way (like the antique shows) to streamline paperwork hurdles to reduce the barriers to buying/selling at your swap meet?
Anyone could provide legal services, or more like paralegal services, and not just the event organizer. That might include helping with sales tax as well as temporary licensing and such.

Personally, I prefer the working around the law approach. I don't really like the idea of funding violent gangsters any more than I have to. A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).

For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).

This reminds me of the recent movie "Larry Crowne" with Tom Hanks. In it one of his neighbors had a perpetual garage sale in his front yard, and it seemed to be his full-time occupation. What an idea... forget opening a retail outlet, just run it as a perpetual garage sale in your front yard!
Lamar Johnson got lucky....and never looked back in terms of stickin' it to the man! Hence the effort to move away from even FRNs in an attempt to control such activities....and thus provide for greater taxation/control via electronic credits.

I knew of a guy who did some upholstery work occasionally for one of the states. The state was notoriously slow in paying its bills...often taking up to a year. Interest would be tacked on but the state would then refuse to pay the bill. The end users begged for service in order to keep their vehicles up. As a way to get his due rewards from the state....the response was to stick cash in his pocket when a customer paid for a job with cash. The state missed out on the sales tax revenue and he got his interest (as well as cash flow since they used his materials and labor for up to a year w/o paying for them). Get rid of the anonymous cash and it all goes away.....

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John Adams
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by John Adams »

HI guys,

I've really missed out on this thread. I haven't been to the site for a while and had a chance to get caught up a little today and sure enjoyed everyone's comments.

The past few months we've done some neat things with some friends in the ward. Nothing earth-shattering, but at least I believe heading in the right direction (pooling some resources, having some of the young men change the oil in cars vs. jiffy lube, etc.)

I also read a fun book recently (at least I thought it was fun) - Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of Latter-Day Saints 1830-1900 by Leonard Arrington. I stumbled across it while doing some research on co-ops and found it fascinating. It was written in the 1950's, but provided some great information about all the "trial & error" attempts that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc. went through with Law of Consecration, United Order, Co-ops, etc.

A few things I took away from it.

1 - The principles are still there for us to learn from and to try to implement even in our day (the early Saints struggled with the details as well, but some of the principles they listed in their various "constitutions" were really inspiring).
2 - The implementation may constantly be a "work in process" but so what - we want the Kingdom of God, so I'm OK with making a few mistakes along the way.
3 - External forces (i.e., government) can sure make life difficult, but God is in charge and will provide the means/way at the proper time if we're doing our part.
4 - The Saints were obviously against big government (i.e., socialism, communism, etc. in modern day terms), but they also weren't that hip on laissez faire individualism/capitalism either. The goal was always co-operation to build the Kingdom of God. Many of their initiatives would never have been tried if the sole purpose was "profit," but if they felt there was a need to help build the kingdom they would do their best to make it successful. With my wife being from Sugar City, Idaho; I really liked the story about how the Saints were able to make a success out of Sugar Beet farming when so many people said it would never be profitable in the Utah/Idaho desert wasteland.

This is more "philosophy" vs. "practical application" but the other thing that I took out of it was the thought that maybe we're part of a big chiasm. The Saints for whatever reason weren't ready for it back then (based on omniscience it's a good thing so we would get our chance to come down to earth and live, etc.), but there is a lot of information about what they did that we can learn from. Just about the time they were starting to get the hang of it (during the 1870's there were some really amazing success stories), then the government had to squash it all (the Edmunds-Tucker Act really stopped much of their progression to that point). Maybe on the other side of the cycle we'll see it play out the other way around--i.e., the government is gradually falling apart, maybe/hopefully we as Saints are learning to humble ourselves a little more each year as we struggle through these economic difficulties, and as we keep heading in the right direction seeking inspiration maybe all the stars will align this time.

Anyway, whether there is any credence to that line of thinking or not, I still think all this co-op, people's markets, home industry, etc. talk is a good thing no matter what.

I am excited to keep trying.

Oh yeah, one other piece of information that was interesting to me. Based on "monetary units," the church was in debt through the majority of those first seventy years (at least per the world's standards). However based on other points of view, the Kingdom continued to grow each year (i.e., additional communities, additional agriculture, additional flocks/herds, additional manufacturing, new immigrants, new children, new trade, etc.). So per the Babylon definition of success, you would say the Saints really struggled during those years of trying a co-operative approach. However I think what they accomplished was amazing. So yes I know we have to deal with the whole FRN/$ issue even now, but I think as we try to implement these other ideas we do build a more lasting type of "wealth" that will serve us all well as the Babylonian currency gradually collapses.

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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by BroJones »

John Adams wrote:HI guys,

I've really missed out on this thread. I haven't been to the site for a while and had a chance to get caught up a little today and sure enjoyed everyone's comments.

The past few months we've done some neat things with some friends in the ward. Nothing earth-shattering, but at least I believe heading in the right direction (pooling some resources, having some of the young men change the oil in cars vs. jiffy lube, etc.)

I also read a fun book recently (at least I thought it was fun) - Great Basin Kingdom: An Economic History of Latter-Day Saints 1830-1900 by Leonard Arrington. I stumbled across it while doing some research on co-ops and found it fascinating. It was written in the 1950's, but provided some great information about all the "trial & error" attempts that Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, John Taylor, etc. went through with Law of Consecration, United Order, Co-ops, etc.

A few things I took away from it.

1 - The principles are still there for us to learn from and to try to implement even in our day (the early Saints struggled with the details as well, but some of the principles they listed in their various "constitutions" were really inspiring).
2 - The implementation may constantly be a "work in process" but so what - we want the Kingdom of God, so I'm OK with making a few mistakes along the way.
3 - External forces (i.e., government) can sure make life difficult, but God is in charge and will provide the means/way at the proper time if we're doing our part.
4 - The Saints were obviously against big government (i.e., socialism, communism, etc. in modern day terms), but they also weren't that hip on laissez faire individualism/capitalism either. The goal was always co-operation to build the Kingdom of God. Many of their initiatives would never have been tried if the sole purpose was "profit," but if they felt there was a need to help build the kingdom they would do their best to make it successful. With my wife being from Sugar City, Idaho; I really liked the story about how the Saints were able to make a success out of Sugar Beet farming when so many people said it would never be profitable in the Utah/Idaho desert wasteland.

This is more "philosophy" vs. "practical application" but the other thing that I took out of it was the thought that maybe we're part of a big chiasm. The Saints for whatever reason weren't ready for it back then (based on omniscience it's a good thing so we would get our chance to come down to earth and live, etc.), but there is a lot of information about what they did that we can learn from. Just about the time they were starting to get the hang of it (during the 1870's there were some really amazing success stories), then the government had to squash it all (the Edmunds-Tucker Act really stopped much of their progression to that point). Maybe on the other side of the cycle we'll see it play out the other way around--i.e., the government is gradually falling apart, maybe/hopefully we as Saints are learning to humble ourselves a little more each year as we struggle through these economic difficulties, and as we keep heading in the right direction seeking inspiration maybe all the stars will align this time.

Anyway, whether there is any credence to that line of thinking or not, I still think all this co-op, people's markets, home industry, etc. talk is a good thing no matter what.

I am excited to keep trying.
...
Thanks for the insights from Arrington's history, and from yourself, John Adams... I'm excited to keep trying, too.

Wife and I went on a quick trip; back now and I read through the posts. More good ideas keep evolving here as we discuss.
Jonesde for example noted:
A common term for this in the liberty movement is "agorism", which I think DrJones referred to in this original post in this threat (though I don't know if he meant it this way).
Yes, I like the terma "agorism," from the Greek for open market IIRC. This really resonates with me:
For example, rather than calling it a market why not call it a community garage sale? The laws around such things are much more relaxed and reasonable. I've heard that some places are pretty strict about garage sales too and require permits for them, costing as much as $100 for a one day event. I don't think that's the case in Sanpete County (or in any of the cities there), but it would be good to make sure first (if the local thug reps will give you a straight answer, and they often won't... seem even outright lie; lawyers are sometimes not helpful on such topics off the top of their heads, but with a little cash incentive they will do some research and find a good answer; and yes, this is based on unfortunate experience with such things).
Or a "multi-family garage/yard sale"...
instead of using the term "farmer's MARKET" etc. which does seem to be likely to attract formal guvmint attention.

Say there are six families who want to do a bi-monthly (or whatever) garage sale. They choose one well-located yard to hold it at -- or the location could even rotate from one yard to another.
Advertising is cheap in the local advertiser -- in Sanpete = The Horseshoe Trader -- and those editors probably know if there have been "rules restricting" garage or yard sales).

More to the point -- I was one of about 6 families who actually did this about two years ago and it went VERY well. Most folks came in the morning before noon (Like Mes noted) and it was over by about 2pm. Good deals. I remember one neighbor who was not even part of the original "founders" of the yard sale brought over a rifle with scope... it sold quickly! Private party selling of firearms between Utahns is legal in Utah...
The monies from the garage sale (we used FRN's) went to the person who contributed the stuff. Each family had a separate table, pretty much.

Good idea, Jonesde! good way to get the ball rolling IMO.

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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by BroJones »

I'll tell you how to get folks to come to a multi-family yard sale in Sanpete county --
advertise that you'll have available things like:

1. Rifles, pistols etc
2. Old silver coinage and silver rounds
3. A place to sell YOUR silver coinage and silver rounds; no fingerprints taken
4. Four-wheelers and snow-mobiles
5. Bales of hay; food - storage buckets of wheat etc.
6. Redmond salt
7. Barbed-wire and other fencing.
8. That old truck without computer-stuff, especially diesel. Running older cars also.
9. Fresh-baked cookies, pies (yum!) and cakes and muffins
10. Home-grown veggies, apples, peaches, and eggs...
:ymhug:

Things you probably won't find at garage sales in Orem... ;)

They might drive miles for the fire arms... but they'll also buy some stuff to eat for the trip back. ;)

awar_e
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Posts: 392

Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by awar_e »

I have used this one. Their rate of growth has been amazing. http://bountifulbaskets.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

gooseguy11
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by gooseguy11 »

mes5464 wrote:
DrJones wrote:I learned that in my town of Spring City, the town guvmint wanted more revenue from fees etc.... which has prompted some of us to seek a spot for the PM outside the town, in the county. There are actually two guys with proposed spots -- Keith C and David... will leave the names at that for now.
I believe that a political movement should be started to replace local and county leaders that aren't supportive of smaller government and lower taxes. I believe it will be imperative to alter the tax structure so that the Gadiantons can't use it to thwart efforts at independence.

Additionally, a constitutionally minded sheriff will have to be elected that will stand up to unconstitutional federal authorities that attempt to exert influence in the county.

OK, I am excited to say the least for your progress in this thing. To address the above concerns, in Stevens county, WA the locals have become very much involved in the political process. They have created a local county ordinance to tell the feds to take a hike. Follow the link:

http://www.stevenscountyassembly.com/bl ... ance-final" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

They have a strong sheriff, who is part of Sheriff Mack’s line of thinking.

As far a local economies doing this, we have been doing this in my home town for three years. Each year we grow a little more. Our local municipality actually puts it on. They let us (the market) use the space and each vendor pays for the space it uses $15 a week. All the money goes to pay for a manager and advertising and it is managed by a board comprised of vendors. Each vendor sells what ever they want. We sell b-fast sandwiches, and cotton candy. Others sell trinkets they make, or produce on their own property, tacos, shave ice, veggies and fruits. The health dept is very much a part of what we do, it is not that big of a deal. They just make sure what we make is safe. As far as vendor goes we have probably 40 vendors in the peak of the season. Some come as far as 130 miles to sell at our market. After talking to our market vendors that come from afar they say other markets may have more people that come to them, but that they are often just looking at our people are buying stuff. They come from markets far larger than ours, it just works out better for them here than there. Our town is only 20,000 people not a small town but not a huge one either.

The structure of the market is also a draw to the vendors as well as they say other markets are privately ran and often the owners are there to make a buck and do not contribute to the market at all. They charge admission, or for parking which then just inhibits potential customers from even wanting to come. Or their rules are cumbersome to follow.

Here is a link to the market: http://www.moseslakefarmersmarket.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I Hope this helps.



jaasdf

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