Funny no one is reporting this here.

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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby shadow » Fri Jan 20, 2012 10:19 pm

bobhenstra wrote:But it's alright for some of you to call and imply that Mitt Romney, who I respect, a crook, a liar, and a thief?

I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to out-right call a person a hypocrite.

I was talking with a retired client of mine yesterday. He's some sort of engineer. He told me a company in Minnesota hired him away from ATK years ago to save their company, a big company. One of the products they built were the flywheels in Honda transmissions. But they were 3 months from closing the door on this particular plant because it was losing money. Well he got in there and changed a few things and streamlined a few more. Within a year they were 1 million ahead. But even AFTER they became profitable he laid off 5 of the 7 inspectors. Their positions were no longer needed. In order for companies to survive sometimes jobs need to be cut.
Bain pretty much does the same thing. Fairminded whines about all the people that were laid off, or as he says "plundered" yet they would have lost there jobs anyway. Talk to a Staples employee and see if they are grateful for their job. Thanks to Bain they have a job.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so ignorant of how businesses need to be managed in order for them to stay open. The world doesn't owe anyone a steady job and the best control over your financial situation comes from yourself. So start a business and hire the world if you think it's so easy to keep a business open. Just go rent yourself an office or store and put an open sign on the door and sit back and let the work flow! Any takers?

All that said, I'm no Romney fan!
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:39 am

Thomas wrote:Bob, if a strong man waited outside a bank, he could find a weak old woman walking out with some money and take it from her. He would be using his strength to take from her instead of working for it. At what point does using your strength in mind power, clout or wealth, fall into the same category? I am not sure myself but I know there must be a reason the Savior said," It is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven then for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle".


Well, you see Thomas, Jim didn't have just one plan for that property, if he could turn it for a quick profit that was fine with him. If the home builder below the property failed to meet Jim's price then Jim was prepared to go to plan B, if plan B somehow wasn't feasible, he had a plan C. One way or another Jim was going to make money off that property! If I learned anything from that man it was how to plan for contingencies!

When Jo was diagnosed with cancer the first thing I did was have my son set up a family trust in his name with all our (paid for) property in that trust, that's called "planning" for any contingency! We had no idea what was going to happen with her diagnosis, operations? treatments?---- What??

We have our food storage and many other things involved with preparation for any contingency! And that Thomas, is exactly what I didn't do when I started my own business, Murphy's law stuck up it's ugly head and "I" was left holding the bag. My fault, nobody elses! I should have planned better!

So your camel at the needle gate example holds little water, a man can be righteous and rich too, read up on Lehi! Study the quote from the Book of Jacob a few posts back, pay better attention to the part in red!

Mitt Romney did!

Bob
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:59 am

bobhenstra wrote:
Thomas wrote:Bob, if a strong man waited outside a bank, he could find a weak old woman walking out with some money and take it from her. He would be using his strength to take from her instead of working for it. At what point does using your strength in mind power, clout or wealth, fall into the same category? I am not sure myself but I know there must be a reason the Savior said," It is harder for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of heaven then for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle".


Well, you see Thomas, Jim didn't have just one plan for that property, if he could turn it for a quick profit that was fine with him. If the home builder below the property failed to meet Jim's price then Jim was prepared to go to plan B, if plan B somehow wasn't feasible, he had a plan C. One way or another Jim was going to make money off that property! If I learned anything from that man it was how to plan for contingencies!

When Jo was diagnosed with cancer the first thing I did was have my son set up a family trust in his name with all our (paid for) property in that trust, that's called "planning" for any contingency! We had no idea what was going to happen with her diagnosis, operations? treatments?---- What??

We have our food storage and many other things involved with preparation for any contingency! And that Thomas, is exactly what I didn't do when I started my own business, Murphy's law stuck up it's ugly head and "I" was left holding the bag. My fault, nobody elses! I should have planned better!

So your camel at the needle gate example holds little water, a man can be righteous and rich too, read up on Lehi! Study the quote from the Book of Jacob a few posts back, pay better attention to the part in red!

Mitt Romney did!

Bob

It's not my camel going through the eye of the needle, it's the Savior's words. like I said, I don't know where that line is crossed. I have owned a small business for 19 years. I know there is a lot of deadbeats out there. I know what it takes to keep a business going and I've seen many people fail at what I do.

Is Romney using his money to feed the poor and clothe the naked or to buy 15 houses that are much to big for his needs? Your interpetation of Isaiah said those with houses to big for their needs would be burned. I doubt Romney has done a honest day of work in his life.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:36 am

Lol, You were using the needle gate as "your" example, and I'd bet that Mitt could out work you any day! As I mentioned before, he derives rental income off the houses he owns. And it's 13, plus a ranch in Wyoming where he raises cattle, run by his son!

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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 11:13 am

bobhenstra wrote:Lol, You were using the needle gate as "your" example, and I'd bet that Mitt could out work you any day! As I mentioned before, he derives rental income off the houses he owns. And it's 13, plus a ranch in Wyoming where he raises cattle, run by his son!

Bob

Bob there are few people on this earth that have out worked me. I'm talking productive work, that actually makes something, not using your brain to get out of real work or using your brain to give someone less money for an asset than it's worth , so you can sell it later for a profit. Romney was born with a silver spoon in in his mouth. He knows nothing of what it takes to make it on your own. I was living in state foster homes from the age of 12. I received nothing from my parents. No free college. No cars, clothes, money or open doors because of my name.

My Bible says nothing about needles gate. I have heard others try to say that's what it means. Once again, the Savior's words not mine. If you can disprove the Bible, please show me your evidence. My take is that very few, if any,wealthy people will make it into the kingdom of heaven.

You still haven't told me why Romney is exempt from the burning, that people will receive from having houses to large for their needs.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 12:06 pm

St. Mark, Chp. 10 :

21Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, one thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me.

22 And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.

23 And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, how hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them , children, how hard is it for them that"trust in riches"to enter into the kingdom of God!

25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter into the kindom of God.

Nothing about a gate here. I think it's quite clear.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 1:17 pm

The Eye of a Needle

Many visitors to this site come seeking an understanding of what Yeshua (Jesus) meant when He said, "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God" (MARK 10:25). The following is what I have found as the answer.

There are at least four possible explanations for what Yeshua said. One, that "eye of a needle" was a narrow mountain pass of which it was difficult for a camel to go through. That explanation is plausible but not very likely there being no known pass by that name in that part of the world. Another explanation is given by EW Bullinger in his Companion Bible. He wrote,

"...the eye of the needle, a small door fixed in a gate and opened after dark. To pass through, the camel must be unloaded. Hence the difficulty of the rich man. He must be unloaded, and hence the proverb, common in the East. In Palestine the "camel"; in the Babylonian Talmud it is the elephant".
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Then there's this-----

Manners and Customs of the Bible by James Freeman gives a similar explanation. This second explanation seems reasonable except for a couple of things. First, at the time of Yeshua's quote, He was on the coast of Judaea and was near no city gates. One might expect that when Yeshua made reference to something in His teaching, He pointed to it as His illustration. When He said one might wither a fig tree or cast a mountain into the sea (MATHEW 21:21), He very likely pointed at the fig tree and at mount Olivet and then at the sea. When He said that Solomon was not arrayed like one of these lilies, He probably pointed at the flower for the comparison. If He was standing alongside a city gate as He made this statement about a camel entering through the eye of a needle, Bullinger's suggestion might seem more likely, but not as much so if He was walking along the sea coast.

In addition to this, the New Bible Dictionary says concerning the existence of these gates, that "there is no historical evidence to support this". The context of His teaching does not place Him around camels or city gates, and with "no historical evidence to support" the idea that He was indeed referring to a camel going through a city gate, it seems to me quite a stretch to assume Bullinger is right.

A third suggestion of the meaning of a camel going through the eye of a needle is given by Abraham Mitrie Rihbany in his book The Syrian Christ. On pages 131-132 quoted below, he comments on the idea of the eye of the needle being a city gate.

The saying [about a camel going through the eye of a needle] is current in the East, and in all probability it was a common saying there long before the advent of Christ. But I never knew that small door in a city or a castle gate to be called the needle's eye; nor indeed the large gate to be called the needle. The name of that door, in the common speech of the country, is the "plum," and I am certain the Scriptural passage makes no reference to it whatever.

The Koran makes use of this expression in one of its purest classical Arabic passages. The term employed here- sum-el-khiat- can mean only the sewing instrument, and nothing else.

So, it would appear that although the gates may of existed, they were not called "needle's eyes". Mr. Rihbany suggests that Yeshua was simply speaking figuratively, as when He said "Ye blind guides, which strain at [out] a gnat and swallow a camel" (MATTHEW 23:24). Perhaps this is so, and without the final explanation given below, it sounds most plausible.

Lastly however, is the explanation which seems the most likely. Most Christians realize that the Gospels weren't originally written in English. Some think they were written in Latin, most believe they were first written in Greek. Very possibly though, some if not all were written in the language of Yeshua and His followers, Aramaic. This language was all but forgotten until about a hundred years ago, which is why few students are familiar with it. Dr. George Lamsa, who has written extensively about the language and in his book entitled Gospel Light clarifies for us the probable meaning of Yeshua's words concerning the eye of a needle. I will quote from page 167.

"The Aramaic word gamla means camel, a large rope and a beam. The meaning of the word is determined by its context. If the word riding or burden occurs then gamla means a camel, but when the eye of a needle is mentioned gamla more correctly means a rope. There is no connection anywhere in Aramaic speech or literature between camel and needle, but there is a definite connection between rope and needle."

Most English versions of the Gospels came from Greek texts by translators who may have known nothing about Aramaic. Thus "camel" would have been translated instead of "rope". It takes little effort to imagine Yeshua, while walking along the sea coast, pointing to a rope and saying, "It is easier for a camel [a gamla, a rope] to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".

One final note of information should be passed along to the reader. In his book Judaism in the First Three Centuries of the Christian Era, George Foot Moore shares the following from ancient Jewish beliefs.

God encourages and assists every movement of man's heart towards him. The words of the lover in the Song of Songs (5,2), 'Open to me, my sister,' are thus applied: God says, "Open to me an entrance no larger than the eye of a needle, and I will open to you an entrance through which tents and great timbers can pass."

Now let us venture beyond which was actually spoken by the Lord. Let us consider, in the context, what our Lord was meaning by His illustration. His context has to do with entering the kingdom of GOD. In the previous chapter He had warned that "if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire". Then a few verses before the one we are studying, He said, "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein". We all know the eagerness and excitement children have for learning. What parent hasn't tired of hearing their child ask, "but why"? If we are to discover that hidden kingdom of GOD, we also must not only remove from us anything that may offend, but also we must with childlike meekness ask to receive answers and knock so as to have doors opened unto us.

As we continue reading the record in Mark's gospel we come to our verse in question. A wealthy man had come to Yeshua seeking what he must do to "inherit eternal life". After hearing Yeshua's response, Mark wrote that the man "was sad at that saying, and went away grieved". He was sad and he was grieved because Yeshua's response was not the answer he had hoped for. He didn't realize that greater wealth then he had ever dreamed of could be his if he accepted Yeshua's answer. This man was as the seed sown amongst thorns. He was acquainted with accumulating "great possessions" but he was not acquainted with laying up "treasure in heaven". He may have known "the commandments" but he didn't know the Word of GOD.

It is interesting that before Yeshua gave him his answer, the Scripture says that Yeshua "loved him". That is always why the word is sown. That is why the word is sent. But too often it is rejected. Yeshua wasn't desiring to deprive this rich man of his wealth. Yeshua was showing him the way into the kingdom of GOD. Yeshua was offering him treasures vastly superior to any that moth and rust could corrupt. Thus, three times, as if trying to drive the point home to His disciples, Yeshua said, "How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God...how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God...It is easier for a camel [rope] to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God". For Yeshua to declare this warning three times, speaks loudly to those who have ears to hear. The desire for riches is not to be underestimated in its ability to deceive and divert one from the narrow way that leads unto life.

Many people living in the Bible lands at the time when the Gospels were written, erroneously believed that all wealth was a blessing from GOD. If one was poor, then the people believed that he must surely be cursed by GOD, but if one was rich he must surely be blessed by GOD. This is why the disciples then "were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?" (MARK 10:26). They thought that if the rich found it difficult to enter the kingdom of GOD, what chance did the rest of them have? Much of Yeshua's teaching endeavored to correct the false assumption that wealth is always a blessing from GOD. The truth is more the other way. Usually the pursuit of wealth insulates us from the workings of GOD in our lives. It can choke the word sown in our hearts and rob us of eternal treasures our heavenly Father desires for us to obtain. Hence, it is difficult (not impossible) for a rich man to enter the kingdom of GOD. Many stumble at this and are sad and go away grieved, having found no answer that pleases them. A few however are willing to set aside secondary pursuits and seek with all their heart to know HIM who knew them "before the foundation of the world" (EPHESIANS 1:4).

MARK 8:35, 36 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it; but whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel's, the same shall save it. For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?

So, then in your view Thomas it absolutely impossible for a rich man to also be a righteous man! Ok, but your wrong! Many of our General Authorities are rich men, past and ancient prophets included. But does a rich man have to be a prophet to be righteous? No! It's always in the eye of the beholder making unrighteous judgement!

Bob
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:26 pm

Bob, you have not quite convinced me. I have seen your gate and explainations before. Many will find excuses to justify their actions when they don't coincide with the teachings of Christ. Jesus clearly told the man to give up his wealth.

Why are the people to be burned up with large houses. You seem to have contradicted yourself. Even your BoM scriptures say you should only seek wealth to assist the poor. I think when we get to the other side, we will have a greater understanding of how much harm our greed does. The road to riches is paved upon the backs of the poor.

I didn't know that any of the GAs were worth 250 million like Romney.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Matthew.B » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:34 pm

I would like to see an accurate side-by-side comparison of how much money Romney has made vs. how much he's donated to the Church. Since bob is using Romney's church donations as a measurement of Romney's righteousness, perhaps if we could get an accurate idea of how much money Romney has donated (as a percentage) above and beyond tithing, we could assess the situation better.

Maybe that will have to wait until April. But, it seems to me that there comes a point when a person simply has too much money than they can ever hope to righteously use to provide for their family. At what point does hoarding wealth and using it to accumulate even more wealth become cankerous to the soul?

bob, the following two quotes- both from your posts- cause me some alarm.

bobhesntra wrote:Mitt, even in all his successes, kept his family together and succeeded in becoming rich simply because, like his father, understood the admonition of Jacob in the 2nd chapter of the Book called Jacob (Book of Mormon)!


bobhenstra wrote:Many people living in the Bible lands at the time when the Gospels were written, erroneously believed that all wealth was a blessing from GOD. If one was poor, then the people believed that he must surely be cursed by GOD, but if one was rich he must surely be blessed by GOD. This is why the disciples then "were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?" (MARK 10:26). They thought that if the rich found it difficult to enter the kingdom of GOD, what chance did the rest of them have? Much of Yeshua's teaching endeavored to correct the false assumption that wealth is always a blessing from GOD.


Perhaps, if you can show how you absolutely know that Romney's wealth are a result of righteousness- beyond the fact that there have been wealthy, righteous men before- I would be more convinced. I don't think you've done a good job of it so far, notwithstanding Jacob's teachings.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:58 pm

Thomas wrote:Bob, you have not quite convinced me. I have seen your gate and explainations before. Many will find excuses to justify their actions when they don't coincide with the teachings of Christ. Jesus clearly told the man to give up his wealth.

Why are the people to be burned up with large houses. You seem to have contradicted yourself. Even your BoM scriptures say you should only seek wealth to assist the poor. I think when we get to the other side, we will have a greater understanding of how much harm our greed does. The road to riches is paved upon the backs of the poor.

I didn't know that any of the GAs were worth 250 million like Romney.


Thomas, you don't know of any simply because "you" don't know, their wealth is none of your business. Romney is not required to show "you" how he supports the poor! Lets say he doesn't rent out all those houses you keep commenting upon, so I ask you Thomas! Who takes care of those homes, who repairs problems that arise, roof problems, plumbing problems who keeps up the landscape etc, who Thomas? who does all that?? Might it be people Mitt hires to do all that work, people in need of jobs, people who don't have his or even possibly your smarts for business? The ranch in Wyoming, who takes care of that cattle ranch, might he have a ranch foreman, ranch hands, people to repair fences, keep homes, bunk houses, and out buildings in repair? Who does all that Thomas, friendly neighbors, enemies? Or people in need of work Mitt hires?

Thomas, for a self professed business owner, I find you amazingly short sighted concerning other peoples business! Fact is, it's none of your business how they run their business!

Bob
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Original_Intent » Sat Jan 21, 2012 3:46 pm

Well Bob, I have been patient with you.

But when you will excuse someone owning 17 homes by saying that he is therefore providing employment for people to maintain those homes, therefore he is helping the poor - you've abandoned reason, there is NOTHING Mitt Romney could do that you will not find a way to twist scripture to justify.

I understand you are old Bob, that means time is short for you to get right with the Savior. You seem like a good man, but you are either deceived or acting as deceiver in this regard. You want to support Mitt? Have at it. The fact is, I didn;t really care about his wealth, I am not envious of him, I am far more concerned with his willingness to change his position for political advantage (Which you also excuse because "he's the priesthood holder!")

But this defense of owning 17 homes and not only won't say that is excessive but you actually twist it into a positive CHARITABLE thing - you've gone too far. I've actaully held you in high esteem, even though we often disagree - but no more. Absolutely shameful Bob, the only good to come out of it is your true colors are there for all to see.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Matthew.B » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:37 pm

bobhenstra wrote:Thomas, you don't know of any simply because "you" don't know, their wealth is none of your business. Romney is not required to show "you" how he supports the poor

I guess you missed my first post, Bob. I know you may feel attacked from multiple people right now, but I really want to know:

How do *you* know that Romney is, in fact, helping the poor? How do *you* know what is inside Mitt Romney's heart? If you have additional evidence, I'd like to hear about it, because I am curious.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby shadow » Sat Jan 21, 2012 4:55 pm

Original_Intent wrote:Well Bob, I have been patient with you.

But when you will excuse someone owning 17 homes by saying that he is therefore providing employment for people to maintain those homes, therefore he is helping the poor - you've abandoned reason, there is NOTHING Mitt Romney could do that you will not find a way to twist scripture to justify.

I understand you are old Bob, that means time is short for you to get right with the Savior. You seem like a good man, but you are either deceived or acting as deceiver in this regard. You want to support Mitt? Have at it. The fact is, I didn;t really care about his wealth, I am not envious of him, I am far more concerned with his willingness to change his position for political advantage (Which you also excuse because "he's the priesthood holder!")

But this defense of owning 17 homes and not only won't say that is excessive but you actually twist it into a positive CHARITABLE thing - you've gone too far. I've actaully held you in high esteem, even though we often disagree - but no more. Absolutely shameful Bob, the only good to come out of it is your true colors are there for all to see.

Pride check on OI!
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:16 pm

I guess your right OI, Romney shouldn't be giving people those jobs, he should be giving those people those houses and letting them pay for the upkeep and the taxes, wonder how long that'd last? Romney is paying them for their honest labor, much better to just give them the money, not require them to work for it. You must see some sort of racial connotation in what I said, but I see none! I think it's better to give people a job than it is to give them a handout!

The very reason Mitt is waiting until April to release his tax forms is to allow all you anti Romney folk to continue to step in it, it's amazing to me you cannot see that! Especially since Ron Paul has declared he will "NOT" release "HIS" tax forms.

I see, and expected, a distinct double standard there, not with Romney and Paul, but with you Paul supporters. Why is it Ok for you to jump all over Romney, but ignore Ron Paul's declaration!

OI, your argument is very very shallow!

And Mathew, how much money Mitt gives to helping the poor in none of my business, I have no right to view his church donation list, but I know a lot of people work for Mitt Romney making honest wages, not receiving handouts! In April you'll see what his donations report is, are you going to be one like OI who has stepped in it? Remember, Tax law allows only 15 percent of income to be counted as donations, Mitt invests the rest, supplying good people with good jobs, not handouts!

Bob
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Matthew.B » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:45 pm

bobhenstra wrote:And Mathew, how much money Mitt gives to helping the poor in none of my business, I have no right to view his church donation list, but I know a lot of people work for Mitt Romney making honest wages, not receiving handouts! In April you'll see what his donations report is, are you going to be one like OI who has stepped in it? Remember, Tax law allows only 15 percent of income to be counted as donations, Mitt invests the rest, supplying good people with good jobs, not handouts!

Bob, my friend, here's the critical chink in the armor of your argument, as I see it. Perhaps I'm missing something and you can correct me.

You have declared, multiple times, that you believe Romney's wealth is because of his righteousness, citing Jacob as the pattern whereby righteous people can acquire wealth righteously. As an example of this righteousness, you have only ever offered the fact that Romney's business ventures have created jobs. If I understand your above statement correctly, your stance is that it is nobody's business how much Romney donates to the poor or church donations.

Now, how do the scriptures teach us that we may know if wealth is being righteously used? It will be used to clothe the poor, feed the hungry, etc. (Jacob 2:18). That is the fruit whereby we may know if a rich man is righteous: he will use his great wealth to do those things. However, you claim that those things are no one's business (that comment shows that you yourself don't know). How can you judge a tree whose fruit you have not tasted?

Now, you claim that Romney using his wealth to create jobs helps the poor by giving them jobs. I respond, that it is a truth that tyrants and dictators also put people to work. Some of the most wicked, degenerate men have created elaborate business and government empires that have put many people to "work", oftentimes for "honest wages"- yet those wicked men are still wicked. Job creation with fair compensation is an incredibly poor measuring rod because it so easily yields false positives (using that measuring rod, Mussolini, Hitler, Lenin, and many other tyrants would be considered righteous). Businesses offer compensation for labor- it's not the charitable giving that is admonished by King Benjamin and Jacob.

I am worried that you have gone after the very error from the article you quoted not 10 posts ago- that oftentimes men see wealth as a sign of righteousness and God's favor, when in fact Christ taught that that is most definitely *not* always the case.

If I am missing something, I ask that you show me where I am wrong.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:51 pm

When it comes to someone running for president of this country, all things pertaining to that person's character is my business. I find the way that Romney has acquired his wealth to be unsavory at best. He has used his position of wealth and power to tear things down, when he could have used it to build things up. I find that business atitude to be very shortsighted. It is at the root of some of America's problems right now. Dismantling manufacturing capicity and sending it to China, for a short term gain, that benefits a few and hurts many. He could have used his postion to help this country build something. Germany has done a good job of keeping their productive base, because they have not fallen for that greed trap. I don't see how the home matinence jobs make up for the loss of good jobs. It has always been easier to destroy than build.

My main problem with Romney is,he doesn't seem to care about the destruction of our constitution. We have been repeatly warned of the dire consequences of that loss, by the prophets of the church.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby bobhenstra » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:48 pm

C'mon guys! Good grief, tell you what, I suggest a letter, or better yet, go see Mitt's Bishop face to face concerning Mitt's temple worthiness and his year end donations statement, I'm certain Mitt's bishop will set you straight, probably won't take him long at all!

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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Nan » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:06 pm

It is amazing how many people here are so judgmental of someone that has money. Frankly I know a lot of wicked poor people. I see much pride coming from people here about how they aren't wealthy. There are a lot of people that scream about our church and how "wealthy" it is. There are many people that make good money who were honest and hard working. They weren't lucky or wicked.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:28 pm

Nan wrote:It is amazing how many people here are so judgmental of someone that has money. Frankly I know a lot of wicked poor people. I see much pride coming from people here about how they aren't wealthy. There are a lot of people that scream about our church and how "wealthy" it is. There are many people that make good money who were honest and hard working. They weren't lucky or wicked.

Nan, how do know who here is wealthy or not? Isn't that being quite judgemental.

BTW, Grinchrich is predicted winner in SC. Maybe worse than Obama.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby seer stone » Sat Jan 21, 2012 7:46 pm

I've followed this thread since the beginning. I thought it may be for the better I stay away from the controversy that has developed with Romney's wealth. I must admit that I don't have a problem with Mitt having money or even owning homes. Matter of fact, I'm sure Mitt uses a considerable amount of his money in a charitable way. I'm not the one to judge him on this.

Where I have a problem with Brother Romney is in his political views. I've also felt some concern with his business principles.

I haven't seen the movie "King of Bain" yet. The movie I posted on another thread was called "When Romney came to town". The two documentaries seem related, however I'm quite amused that the source is from a Fox News insider. Fox News is a company with direct affiliation to Bain Capitol. This accumulates to one of two scenarios. First scenario could be Gingrich's campaign completely falsified the statement of these two Unimax employees during filming through clipping or editing statements. This is quite possible. The other scenario is that the Romney campaign or possibly Bain Capitol, itself, paid these two employees a considerable amount of money to retract or alter their statements and even endorse Romney. All that we know for sure is that they agreed to talk about corporate raiders. Who were the corporate raiders that they agreed to film about then? I know that the other participants in the film spoke about Romney directly. Someone needs to be accountable for bearing false witness, but who? Gingrich or Romney?
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Nan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:24 am

Thomas wrote:
Nan wrote:It is amazing how many people here are so judgmental of someone that has money. Frankly I know a lot of wicked poor people. I see much pride coming from people here about how they aren't wealthy. There are a lot of people that scream about our church and how "wealthy" it is. There are many people that make good money who were honest and hard working. They weren't lucky or wicked.

Nan, how do know who here is wealthy or not? Isn't that being quite judgemental.

BTW, Grinchrich is predicted winner in SC. Maybe worse than Obama.


I don't think you are willing to look at yourself at all. And people with money don't run around calling people who have money wicked just because they have money. They know that you can be wealthy and be righteous. But I have seen a lot of people who just haven't been successful consoling themselves that people with money are wicked.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Fairminded » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:53 am

Nan wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Nan wrote:It is amazing how many people here are so judgmental of someone that has money. Frankly I know a lot of wicked poor people. I see much pride coming from people here about how they aren't wealthy. There are a lot of people that scream about our church and how "wealthy" it is. There are many people that make good money who were honest and hard working. They weren't lucky or wicked.

Nan, how do know who here is wealthy or not? Isn't that being quite judgemental.

BTW, Grinchrich is predicted winner in SC. Maybe worse than Obama.


I don't think you are willing to look at yourself at all. And people with money don't run around calling people who have money wicked just because they have money. They know that you can be wealthy and be righteous. But I have seen a lot of people who just haven't been successful consoling themselves that people with money are wicked.


Wealth and corruption often go hand in hand. To dismiss someone's concerns about a wealthy person's conduct as mere jealousy is common (more common than you'd think, just look at this thread for plenty of examples). However it just serves to reinforce my previous statement that our culture, and most other cultures, venerate the wealthy. People are willing to excuse the indiscretions of the wealthy, and blindly come to their defense when others speak against them.

Imagine this wasn't about a wealthy person at all. Imagine instead this is about a factory worker who kills his wife. If his neighbor were to speak out against him, do you think everyone else would jump on that neighbor and saying he's only making those accusations because he's jealous of the murderer for being free of spousal nagging?

Many people have raised valid concerns about Romney's past business practices and his current political viewpoints. You can't dismiss all such concerns as mere jealousy. This is not only being willfully blind to any evidence they bring to back their arguments, but also displays a judgmental and closeminded nature.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Nan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:03 am

Umm when did Romney kill anyone? Sorry but your argument isn't valid. You say that all wealthy people are corrupt. And yet most people are not wealthy and we are living in a very corrupt society. It is completely corrupt to expect to live off the labors of others while you don't work. So how many people do we have on welfare? How many people are accepting government help? I bet it outnumbers the wealthy. I am sorry but I know many poor people who are wicked. We live in wicked times. And it is only going to get worse. Money isn't the problem. It is people choosing not to follow God.
And I find it funny that you completely ignore the concerns with Ron Paul. Somehow they don't count in your mind.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Fairminded » Sun Jan 22, 2012 8:29 am

No, I said that wealthy people are OFTEN corrupt. Because wealth is a form of power, and the scriptures are quite clear in saying that power corrupts.

And unlike some people I don't like to deal in absolutes. If someone is against hate crime legislation I don't automatically assume they're racist, and if someone accuses a wealthy person of misconduct I don't automatically assume they're just jealous of that person's wealth.

As for concerns about Ron Paul, I've heard a fair number and of the ones I've heard to me they AREN'T concerns.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:18 am

Nan wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Nan wrote:It is amazing how many people here are so judgmental of someone that has money. Frankly I know a lot of wicked poor people. I see much pride coming from people here about how they aren't wealthy. There are a lot of people that scream about our church and how "wealthy" it is. There are many people that make good money who were honest and hard working. They weren't lucky or wicked.

Nan, how do know who here is wealthy or not? Isn't that being quite judgemental.

BTW, Grinchrich is predicted winner in SC. Maybe worse than Obama.


I don't think you are willing to look at yourself at all. And people with money don't run around calling people who have money wicked just because they have money. They know that you can be wealthy and be righteous. But I have seen a lot of people who just haven't been successful consoling themselves that people with money are wicked.

Nan, I'm not running for president. I have the right to question anyone that does.

I have been quite sucessful in my life. I question if I will burned because my house is to large. What I question is the way Romney got his money. I worked for my money.

I guess your logic is that casino owners and mafia lords are righteous. What about the Mexican drug lords. I guess God gave them their money. Same with all the LDS con men who made millions. They all held the priesthood. There is a diference between working for something and being rich. Romney doesn't know what work is. He has made his money by manipulation, not by any productive means. By my defintion, that's not righteous. If he wasn't running for president, I wouldn't care.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Nan » Sun Jan 22, 2012 1:51 pm

Thomas you are quite wrong. Romney has done nothing but work his entire life. He never received an inheritance from his parents. He didn't manipulate things. Seriously what you said about Romney is the dumbest thing I have heard any say. And all of your arguments are extremist arguments. You take things so out of context it isn't funny. where do you get off saying I believe mafia guys are righteous guys?
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Rob » Sun Jan 22, 2012 3:32 pm

bobhenstra wrote: go see Mitt's Bishop face to face concerning Mitt's temple worthiness and his year end donations statement
And what, pray tell, will his bishop be allowed to tell us? And what are our chances of getting an appointment? :-?

Don't get me wrong, Bob, I'm not saying anything one way or the other. I'm just wondering why you would suggest something so seemingly absurd. :-\
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby Thomas » Sun Jan 22, 2012 4:48 pm

Nan wrote:Thomas you are quite wrong. Romney has done nothing but work his entire life. He never received an inheritance from his parents. He didn't manipulate things. Seriously what you said about Romney is the dumbest thing I have heard any say. And all of your arguments are extremist arguments. You take things so out of context it isn't funny. where do you get off saying I believe mafia guys are righteous guys?

Nan, I just can't respect a guy who didn't work for his money. If you think Romney's wealth wasn't influenced by his dad's clout and the position he was put into,top schools ect., then you are blind. Go ahead and worship that kind of thing if you want. The fact is, Gingrich was able to portray Romney as part of the corrupt, elite, money masters, like MF global, Goldman Sachs, ect.. It is what cost Romney the race in South Carolina. Most Americans have to work for a living. They don't respect guys that get huge loans to use for breaking up businesses, to sell at a profit, that got those loans based on their father's reputation and backing. No average American off the street would be given loans like that.

I think Romney has a lot of good qualities. I like his family values. I don't think he is evil. I do think Gingrich has no redeeming character values. I think he is a power hungry, morally bankrupt person. We need more than good intentions to save this country. We need someone who understands"our awful situation" and will do something about it. Romney doesn't seem to have a clue. If he would show some solutions to the real problems we face, I would support him. I would love to have a LDS man as president but I can't vote fo him just because he is LDS. If that was a good measuring stick, then Harry Reid would be good leader.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby kfb » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:50 pm

Fairminded wrote:Actually, Bain's business practices resulted in the companies they took over producing inferior products with decreased safety and a larger number of defects. At which point they dumped the companies on unsuspecting buyers who thought they were still producing their usual quality goods, only with lower overhead. It's no wonder that once people figured out that was NOT the case that the company's stock plummeted.

Plain and simple, Romney's company looted the equity of smaller companies going through rough patches, then sold them at a profit to trusting investors. They destroyed jobs, company, and investors all, and made a, to quote one reporter, "disgusting" profit in the process.

I realize it's heavily ingrained in our culture to revere successful people, but you have to look deeper to see just how vile these business practices are.



Perhaps a course in Econ 110 would help you understand the faulty logic of your post. It doesn't take an MBA to understand venture capitalists.
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Re: Funny no one is reporting this here.

Postby kfb » Sun Jan 22, 2012 5:53 pm

shadow wrote:
bobhenstra wrote:But it's alright for some of you to call and imply that Mitt Romney, who I respect, a crook, a liar, and a thief?

I was thinking the same thing but didn't want to out-right call a person a hypocrite.

I was talking with a retired client of mine yesterday. He's some sort of engineer. He told me a company in Minnesota hired him away from ATK years ago to save their company, a big company. One of the products they built were the flywheels in Honda transmissions. But they were 3 months from closing the door on this particular plant because it was losing money. Well he got in there and changed a few things and streamlined a few more. Within a year they were 1 million ahead. But even AFTER they became profitable he laid off 5 of the 7 inspectors. Their positions were no longer needed. In order for companies to survive sometimes jobs need to be cut.
Bain pretty much does the same thing. Fairminded whines about all the people that were laid off, or as he says "plundered" yet they would have lost there jobs anyway. Talk to a Staples employee and see if they are grateful for their job. Thanks to Bain they have a job.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can be so ignorant of how businesses need to be managed in order for them to stay open. The world doesn't owe anyone a steady job and the best control over your financial situation comes from yourself. So start a business and hire the world if you think it's so easy to keep a business open. Just go rent yourself an office or store and put an open sign on the door and sit back and let the work flow! Any takers?

All that said, I'm no Romney fan!

Thanks for explaining to the non businessmen and women on the site about capitalism and the free market. Unfortunately many in this country have gotten their education about the free market from ABC NBC CBS and the other state media clowns.
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