Funny no one is reporting this here.

[Nancaptain of 1,000]

People here have jump Romney about Bain capital and how he ruined people's lives. But no one has reported the follow up.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/men-int ... f-context/

[Silascaptain of 100]

In spite of my dislike for Romney as a candidate I really don't like attacking him for firing people. If a company is inefficient and firing unproductive workers will improve the company then that is actually a very desirable thing to do in a market economy. The purpose of a firm is not to support people it is to produce.

[AGalagaChiasmuscaptain of 100]

I find it amusing no one considers what would have happened to those companies if Bain or anyone else simply didn't show up. Were they healthy companies, wherein extra investment would have provided diminished returns? Why were they ripe for turnaround? I think, if one thought it out, that Bain came in and slashed jobs and bottom lines to turn the company around and make it profitable, thereby SAVING jobs that a flailing company would have dumptrucked eventually anyway, going belly-up.

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

Actually, Bain's business practices resulted in the companies they took over producing inferior products with decreased safety and a larger number of defects. At which point they dumped the companies on unsuspecting buyers who thought they were still producing their usual quality goods, only with lower overhead. It's no wonder that once people figured out that was NOT the case that the company's stock plummeted.

Plain and simple, Romney's company looted the equity of smaller companies going through rough patches, then sold them at a profit to trusting investors. They destroyed jobs, company, and investors all, and made a, to quote one reporter, "disgusting" profit in the process.

I realize it's heavily ingrained in our culture to revere successful people, but you have to look deeper to see just how vile these business practices are.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Actually, Bain's business practices resulted in the companies they took over producing inferior products with decreased safety and a larger number of defects. At which point they dumped the companies on unsuspecting buyers who thought they were still producing their usual quality goods, only with lower overhead. It's no wonder that once people figured out that was NOT the case that the company's stock plummeted.

Plain and simple, Romney's company looted the equity of smaller companies going through rough patches, then sold them at a profit to trusting investors. They destroyed jobs, company, and investors all, and made a, to quote one reporter, "disgusting" profit in the process.

I realize it's heavily ingrained in our culture to revere successful people, but you have to look deeper to see just how vile these business practices are.

Nonsense, that's very liberal of you!

Bob

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Here's how I look at it - what's more important - taking care of employees and providing employment for them and their families... or profit margin? Was Romney doing anything wrong by stepping in and advising laying people off? No. Was it the right thing to do for the company financially? Maybe. Is it morally wrong to lay people off just to increase a company's bottom line? IMO, yes. I used to work for a company that allowed itself to be acquired (they called it a merger but we knew otherwise) and within a year, the company had managed to seize our platform technology and had their base operations moved to Colorado (corporate headquarters) and all but about 10% of the employees were let go. The owner of the company was so distraught and upset over how many lives he affected because of his greed that he tried to commit suicide. Anyway - fwiw. I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

[durangoutcaptain of 1,000]

Actually, Bain's business practices resulted in the companies they took over producing inferior products with decreased safety and a larger number of defects. At which point they dumped the companies on unsuspecting buyers who thought they were still producing their usual quality goods, only with lower overhead. It's no wonder that once people figured out that was NOT the case that the company's stock plummeted.

Plain and simple, Romney's company looted the equity of smaller companies going through rough patches, then sold them at a profit to trusting investors. They destroyed jobs, company, and investors all, and made a, to quote one reporter, "disgusting" profit in the process.

I realize it's heavily ingrained in our culture to revere successful people, but you have to look deeper to see just how vile these business practices are.

I realize it is ingrained in YOUR culture to be jelous of successful people...

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

Just so I understand you correctly, you would rather an owner of a company not make any money so long as he kept his employees employed? If that's what you're saying then you're absolutely crazy and I double dog dare you to take the initiative and start your own company

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

You've got that right, Durangout! There's a lot of income envy going on here!

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

Just so I understand you correctly, you would rather an owner of a company not make any money so long as he kept his employees employed? If that's what you're saying then you're absolutely crazy and I double dog dare you to take the initiative and start your own company

And when I start my company, remind me to hire him to oversee things!

[Thomascaptain of 1,000]

I just saw Bob's post about Isaiah on another thread, where he said , those with homes to large for their needs would be burned up.

How many extremely large homes does Romney have?

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

Yes, I'm terribly envious of Romney's $250 million net worth. I should go find 250-500 people and pillage their entire life's earnings so I can be respectable too.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

Just so I understand you correctly, you would rather an owner of a company not make any money so long as he kept his employees employed? If that's what you're saying then you're absolutely crazy and I double dog dare you to take the initiative and start your own company

And when I start my company, remind me to hire him to oversee things!

Actually I'd like him to hire me! Talk about job security! Maybe he'd even mortgage the house to keep me on the payroll, that is if he didn't already mortgage his house to start the business!

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I should go find 250-500 people and pillage their entire life's earnings so I can be respectable too.

Care to honestly explain that?

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

Sure. If your income range is between 13,000 and 26,000 a year, and you work for 40 years, it ranges from 500,000 to 1,000,000 lifetime earnings. Romney's personal take in his company's pillaging of other companies and the various frauds perpetrated concurrently have netted him a 250 million dollar net worth. Meaning his dishonest business practices have earned him the equivalent of 250-500 people's lifetime earnings.

But that's just a generous estimate. I'm sure he's made far more than 500 people's lives worse through his actions. More than 500 providers out of work and health care, more than 500 investors out of their life savings, etc.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

Actually, Bain's business practices resulted in the companies they took over producing inferior products with decreased safety and a larger number of defects. At which point they dumped the companies on unsuspecting buyers who thought they were still producing their usual quality goods, only with lower overhead. It's no wonder that once people figured out that was NOT the case that the company's stock plummeted.

Plain and simple, Romney's company looted the equity of smaller companies going through rough patches, then sold them at a profit to trusting investors. They destroyed jobs, company, and investors all, and made a, to quote one reporter, "disgusting" profit in the process.

I realize it's heavily ingrained in our culture to revere successful people, but you have to look deeper to see just how vile these business practices are.

I realize it is ingrained in YOUR culture to be jelous of successful people...

This reminds me of a class at BYU which was one of those mega-classes with 500 people in it and was then broken into smaller groups with TAs leading discussions. I was fortunate enough to be in a section with a good TA who asked an interesting question one day, something like: "who believes that wealth and business success are a sign of righteousness?"

The response was unanimous in the affirmative, except for the TA and me.

Welcome to the culture of mormonism.

[natashacaptain of 1,000]

That's really strange because in all my years in the Church I have never heard anyone equate wealth/success with righteousness. I don't believe it's the culture of mormonism.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

That's really strange because in all my years in the Church I have never heard anyone equate wealth/success with righteousness. I don't believe it's the culture of mormonism.

It may be more of a Wasatch Front or even Utah valley phenomenon -- jonesde's example came from a BYU setting. I encountered this attitude there also, with ostentatious homes and cars in the area.

I noticed the difference when I came to Sanpete. Here, there is very little interest in ostentation, indeed, folks seem to stay away from it.

See also Helaman 3:33-36. gotta run.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

I just saw Bob's post about Isaiah on another thread, where he said , those with homes to large for their needs would be burned up.

How many extremely large homes does Romney have?

Is the rent from those home income? Why are you not buying homes and renting them out? Is Romney the only Mormon smart enough to do that?

There's nothing stopping you from starting your own business, except maybe fear of failure. Why should Romney who has no fear of failure not own homes he can rent out?

My own sons are starting their own heating and air company, even in this climate of doom, they're not afraid of failure, why should you be? Why should you expect Romney to be afraid of failure? I'm not a rich man, except in blessings, I don't hold Romney's riches against him!

Read the ABC article on how much money Romney gave to the Church!

Bob

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

Just so I understand you correctly, you would rather an owner of a company not make any money so long as he kept his employees employed? If that's what you're saying then you're absolutely crazy and I double dog dare you to take the initiative and start your own company

Did I say 'not make any money'? I'm simply saying that I would applaude and respect any company that put their employees, their jobs and their employees' families first before greed. Sorry if you misunderstood that Shadowman.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

I would have the utmost respect for any CEO or company that had minimal profit (if any) because their philosophy was to keep people employed instead of increasing profits!

Just so I understand you correctly, you would rather an owner of a company not make any money so long as he kept his employees employed? If that's what you're saying then you're absolutely crazy and I double dog dare you to take the initiative and start your own company

And when I start my company, remind me to hire him to oversee things!

Come on you two - you're acting as if making decisions based on morality in the business world is a bad thing. If we had more of it, the world might not be in the mess it's in financially!

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Actually I'd like him to hire me! Talk about job security! Maybe he'd even mortgage the house to keep me on the payroll, that is if he didn't already mortgage his house to start the business!

The love of money is the root of all evil - you cannot deny or refute that, no matter how hard you try or knock my position of dedication to people over profit!

[Fairmindedcaptain of 1,000]

Come on you two - you're acting as if making decisions based on morality in the business world is a bad thing. If we had more of it, the world might not be in the mess it's in financially!

There's a reason CEOs tend to make shortsighted decisions to increase quarterly profits, when more long term strategies would ultimately be far more lucrative as well as more beneficial to everyone involved. If they were to show low profits or even losses in a quarter they'd get sacked, no matter how solid their long term strategy was. There's a reason Japan creamed us in the electronics market as well as a few select others, and that was that they were willing to take heavy losses over a short period to get large long term gains. (Although corruption with government involvement certainly helped.)

People seem to think that treating employees well and respecting customer wishes and striving for a quality product are all doomed to ultimately produce lower profits. Like having integrity in the business world makes you a fool. I suppose when those kind of jaded people control the government and the large corporations that can squash small startups it's true, but not because it's inherently correct.

It kind of makes me sad that people don't realize that doing the right thing usually leads to prosperity. And even more so that sharks like Romney are lauded for their skill at playing the system to steal the hard work and value others have built.

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

I just saw Bob's post about Isaiah on another thread, where he said , those with homes to large for their needs would be burned up.

How many extremely large homes does Romney have?

Is the rent from those home income? Why are you not buying homes and renting them out? Is Romney the only Mormon smart enough to do that?

There's nothing stopping you from starting your own business, except maybe fear of failure. Why should Romney who has no fear of failure not own homes he can rent out?

My own sons are starting their own heating and air company, even in this climate of doom, they're not afraid of failure, why should you be? Why should you expect Romney to be afraid of failure? I'm not a rich man, except in blessings, I don't hold Romney's riches against him!

Read the ABC article on how much money Romney gave to the Church!

Bob

You write of risk as if there was no downside to it... nothing to fear. That couldn't be further from the truth. The penalty for failure in business in our current economy and legal system is slavery. It's that simple. If you fail in business it means you invested more than you were able to generate in return. That means you have lost assets. For those who are not wealthy, that means debt, and the bigger the risk (the bigger the investment of time and/or money) the bigger the debt. The bigger the debt, the more you are enslaved and the less you are able to service in the Church, have a family, and so on.

Risk is a big deal if you are not wealthy. Romney was born with a silver spoon so far up his keister that no amount of failure will ever put his standard of living at risk. If he fails he doesn't have to seek wage work until his net worth is back above zero, he just has to decide what to do next with his time. For him it's like this: "darn, that business failure was a doozey and business isn't much fun any more... maybe I'll get into politics!"

You also imply that risk is a necessary part of success in business. That simply isn't the case. Wealthy people don't leave it to risk. They create and manipulate systems of finance and law so that they have no risk of loss. The individualize gain and socialize loss. They collaborate with government to use its violent force to mitigate risk wherever possible.

People in business and finance like to talk about risk, but it's a lie. They do everything they can to avoid it personally, and push the losses onto other people.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My comments were about "FEAR" of risk, not taking risks! Those who have fear of risks seem very jealous of those who have no fear of failure, risk taking! That's exactly what Bain Capital was when Romney owned it, risk takers invested money in his business, he was successful with their money 77 times, failed four times.

After one week of starting their own company my sons have service and new equipment contracts that total three million dollars. They had the guts to take a risk! You??

[jonesdecaptain of 1,000]

My comments were about "FEAR" of risk, not taking risks! Those who have fear of risks seem very jealous of those who have no fear of failure, risk taking! That's exactly what Bain Capital was when Romney owned it, risk takers invested money in his business, he was successful with their money 77 times, failed four times.

He took risks mostly with other people's money, not his own. That's normal in modern business, and subject to all sorts of abuse.

After one week of starting their own company my sons have service and new equipment contracts that total three million dollars. They had the guts to take a risk! You??

You show an impressive lack of empathy for those who have failed. I hope your sons are spared from that as it sounds like you personally have been.

Are you asking me personally? I am one of the failures, that was the result of the risks I took. I'm about 2.5 years into wage labor out of probably five years that will be necessary for me to get back to zero. That means long hours and earning a lot and getting taxed a lot, but living on poverty level expenses.

Things can go south in ways that you can do little about, especially once an investment is committed. After about 5 years of 60-80 hour work weeks trying to work my way out of a financial pit from a divorce, I had two businesses doing well until the crash of the real estate and labor markets in 2007. My main business was an enterprise software consulting group that went from nearly $4 million per year income to a projected $500k after 6 months of no new contracts and having 2 large contracts cancelled. As for real estate, I managed to reach a point in my career where I had a bit extra to invest at just the point where the market turned around after nearly 20 years of untenable price increases.

I was able to keep them running and wind down business and personal expenses before walking away with a $300k loss in 2008. The main business survived, but we had to lay off about 40 people and it wasn't making enough for me to bring home enough to meet my expenses, so it was back to the consulting world for me, and abandoning lots of investment in that company.

I know very well what the failure side of risk looks like. Most people who talk about the glories of risk do not. I've managed to avoid bankruptcy and honestly keep on top of my financial obligations, but not without significant personal sacrifice and deprivation of most of the good things in life. And my reward for that? More condemnation for not leading a "balanced" life.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Actually I'd like him to hire me! Talk about job security! Maybe he'd even mortgage the house to keep me on the payroll, that is if he didn't already mortgage his house to start the business!

The love of money is the root of all evil - you cannot deny or refute that, no matter how hard you try or knock my position of dedication to people over profit!

The love of money is NOT the root of all evil. The love of self (pride) is.
Maybe I misunderstood your comment. It seemed you were saying a CEO should keep employees employed rather than take a paycheck himself. Why not get after employees for not asking to be paid less during lean times?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I was able to keep them running and wind down business and personal expenses before walking away with a $300k loss in 2008. The main business survived, but we had to lay off about 40 people and it wasn't making enough for me to bring home enough to meet my expenses, so it was back to the consulting world for me, and abandoning lots of investment in that company.

Don't let Col. Flagg know!

[ChelCThe Law]

All hail the proletariat!

Er... wait...

Wrong group (?)

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Actually I'd like him to hire me! Talk about job security! Maybe he'd even mortgage the house to keep me on the payroll, that is if he didn't already mortgage his house to start the business!

OK, say I ran a business that was averaging $10 million in profit annually, but I could increase my profit by an additional $2 million if I let go 50 of my employees while losing some productivity and business in the process - are you saying you'd rather see the 50 go and an additional $2 million in the bank?