LDS Freedom Forum

by **Col. Flagg** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:06 pm

I asked this question yesterday in gospel principles class because it has never made any sense to me why Satan would choose the path he did knowing it would eventually lead to his ultimate demise and destruction, misery, torment and eventually, being cast out to outer darkness to suffer a spiritual death. Surprisingly, a few class members responded that he may not have known what the consequences would be for his rebellion and that his lust for power, glory and control blinded his ability to make a rational decision. It just seems to me that he had to know what the end was going to be for him by choosing to rebel, fall and take 1/3 of the Lord's spirit children with him, so why would any spirit willingly choose that end? Any ideas/thoughts on this?

**Sponsor**

by **kathyn** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:16 pm

I think his ego and pride convinced him he could win....the most disastrous mistake ever.

by **Col. Flagg** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:20 pm

kathyn wrote:I think his ego and pride convinced him he could win....the most disastrous mistake ever.

How could he possibly think he could defeat God? If true, it's the biggest blunder in the history of the universe. :))

It is my understanding that since Satan and his followers never had the chance to gain bodies or be born into mortality that they all still have their memories of the pre-existence and after the Lord made spirits out of the intelligences he had created, thus, Satan had to know what the consequences of his actions were going to be if we knew what ours would be if we followed Christ's plan (tests of faith and trials on earth for Christ's followers but glory in the end if you prove yourself while Lucifer and his minions would have nothing but misery and no ability to experience a physical body or everlasting happiness). I guess the ultimate question is: did Satan know what the ultimate consequence would be for his rebellion? And did his followers know what they were getting into?

by **InfoWarrior82** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 6:25 pm

He thought his plan was better than the Father's plan. It was "risk free". It was pride that kept him clinging to the end... even though he knew what would happen to him. "I'm going home and taking my ball with me!"

I still think he's actively trying his best here on earth to establish his opposite of the Kingdom of God with his angels of light appearing to men who fall for lust of power and gain. After all, he did say that he would take our bodies and his spirit followers would then possess the bodies that house our spirits. He can only do that if he can get away with establishing one world government and then... finally removing free agency.

by **ktg** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 9:13 pm

Verlan Anderson, in his book "The Book of Mormon and the Constitution" wrote:
"No one has ever accused Satan of being stupid. Why then did he chose misery?...
The fate they chose for themselves is horrible beyond description...
But that scripture which most clearly reveals his insensate lust for power, honor and glory, is the one which describes his attemps to induce Moses to worship him. It so fully reveals his true nature that he inspired wicked men to remove it from the world...
(quote Moses 1:12-22) This scripture is quoted this extensively so that it will be seen that Satan's pride, his desire to be worshiped, completely consumes him. So filled is he with envy and lust for power and glory that he is utterly incapable of contemplating any other goal or worrying about the terrible consequences to himself...
He and his followers are what the scriptures call "vessels of wrath". They are so filled with hate that there is no room for anything else. In one sense of the word they are insane because the only thought process of which they are capable are those directed toward gratifying their pride and inducing others to worship them."

by **dauser** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:02 pm

He was the victim type... not the creator type?
His security was more important than his freedom?
He thought freedom was eating someone elses lunch?
He felt entitled?
He wanted a free education?
A social security check?
The principle of work applies to other people not himself?
It was a power lust thing?
Why does 1/3 of the hosts of Earth choose Lucifer's plan too?

by **Eddie Lyle** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:27 pm

I think Lucifer honestly thought he could turn enough of the children against God and thus gain God's power. Look at D&C 29:36 -38

36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;

37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;

38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.

I gather from these verses that God's power derives from his honor. If you remove enough of God's honor he can cease to be God. But in order to remove that honor, God must stop perfectly obeying laws (see Alma 42:13,22,25 and Mormon 9:19). Lucifer tried mighty hard to convince us that his plan was better and would somehow circumnavigate universal laws that if broken would end up with God losing his power and ceasing to be God. With God no longer in charge something would have to fill that vacuum for that lost power. Since Intelligence cleaves to intelligence (D&C 88) and we also know this is God's glory, if God was to lose his Glory, Honor and thus power something would have to take His place. Lucifer thought he could gather enough intelligences to him to overpower God. He miscalculated our love of Father and of Agency and Liberty. He lost and will have to pay the price set by universal law.
My two cents anyway.

by **PunaGabe** » Mon Jan 16, 2012 11:48 pm

WOW! What a serious thread.It all makes since though lucifers way in heaven was just like communism, fascism and new world order.Like you will do it my way no free agency! #:-s

by **bobhenstra** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 12:37 am

Wasn't it that Lucifer sought higher office?
He didn't get it and had followers he made promises to?
Isn't it necessary that there must be opposition in all things? Wasn't Lucifer and his followers sent to this and other earths to supply that opposition? Is that opposition serving a purpose?

Doesn't he get his power from us in our iniquities?

He and his followers are consigned to hell, and just where is hell?
And, just what is the "correct" definition of "outer darkness?

No speculation allowed, correct answers please!

Bob

by **gkearney** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 2:13 am

Here is another question for you. Does Satan have agency? Could he choose now to stop tempting mankind and withdraw from the battle of good v. evil. And if he did so what would the effect be on God's plan given it dependence on opposition in all things.

by **SpeedRacer** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 8:30 am

dauser wrote:He was the victim type... not the creator type?
His security was more important than his freedom?
He thought freedom was eating someone elses lunch?
He felt entitled?
He wanted a free education?
A social security check?
The principle of work applies to other people not himself?
It was a power lust thing?
Why does 1/3 of the hosts of Earth choose Lucifer's plan too?

+1

by **AGalagaChiasmus** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:06 am

You know, I think Satan thought he could get half or better of the hosts of heaven. If he could have, then he would have won. Let me explain, no, that will take too long, so let me sum up.

God, through his righteousness commands the elements (intelligences) who choose to obey Him. If *everything* and *everyone* made a decision to not obey, He would cease to be God, not willing to command via compulsion. Now, consider if Satan got HALF the hosts of heaven, the tables wouldn't be nearly so lopsided. Now I can only imagine, and there's probably not scripture to support this, but imagine a evil dictator here on earth. Who does someone like this surround himself with? Advisers, surely, but also sycophants and bum-kissers. If somehow Satan thought (convinced by his followers) he could gain an advantage over the Lord by sheer numbers of intelligences, then he would have done it (which he did). The adversary probably realized he didn't quite get the number he wanted, but having committed to his rebellion, he thinks there's no turning back.

I've also heard (mainly in the Bible Dictionary under War in Heaven), that the 2/3rds that didn't follow Lucifer, weren't all gung-ho for the Eternal Father either. There were, as Peter Venkman describes his laundry, varying shades of cleanliness in the souls that stayed with God. So this, to me explains why the battle over freedom and righteousness is so tight. If you have a very convicted 1/3 fighting against, let's say a very convicted 1/3 for the Lord and maybe a 1/3 that's luke warm, it will be a close match.

by **Rensai** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 1:51 pm

Imagine yourself as a spirit listening to Christ outline the plan. Now imagine a horrible sinking feeling as you realize you can't possibly succeed and will be damned by that plan because you know yourself well enough to know how you would perform. Do you follow the plan anyway, knowing you will be damned by it? Or do you rebel and grasp for whatever you can? Its not an easy choice either way.

This is partly conjecture, but I imagine this is the choice Satan and many others faced.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 357. The contention in heaven was -- Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

How appealing is Satan's plan if you know you cannot succeed under Christs? It must have been pretty tempting to lead away so many spirits. I don't think Satan was ignorant or stupid or any of the other things commonly ascribed to him. He was a son of the morning and obviously a spirit of great influence. I think he faced a very hard choice and became consumed with hate and bitterness over it. How would you feel if your father announced a plan to you that meant some of your siblings would be saved, but you, one of his elder children, would fail no matter what choice you made?

If a given spirit felt they were doomed as Christ outlined his plan, imagine the hope that must have surged through them when Satan started selling his alternative plan to save all. Even many spirits who thought they would do well in life must have been tempted by it. The chance to be sure is hard to pass up. Or imagine knowing that Christs plan is correct, but that it would damn the brother/sister you love. The war in heaven had to be an agonizing choice for us all.

There is a paper from BYU with quotes that touch on this topic.

http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/PreexistFirstEstate.htm

The Preexistent First Estate

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, 6 Oct 1956, 82-86. "The Ideology of Equality," Messages of Inspiration, comp. by Deseret Book Company, 1957, 20-30. In that great body of intelligences [quoting from Abraham 3:19-26] there were those whom the Lord has described as "noble and great ones"; obviously others were not noble and great....

Then the scripture tells us that there were two who stood up. Each one wanted to create this new world that they had talked about. This is the Grand Council that we talk about, where all of us presumably were. Some were "noble and great ones," and some of us were not. We were not equal in that Grand Council, have no mistake about that....

We understand that we kept our first estate, we who belong to this Church, that we have received the Gospel, and if we live as we should, we will be "added upon."

"... and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate ..." (Abr 3:26.)

The Lord has told us that we have three kingdoms, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; he has told us who will be, in great broad classifications, in each of these kingdoms, possess each of these glories....

I am not undertaking to declare doctrine or Gospel, but as I read that, and as I understand it, it means that after we, so to speak, have been taken out, those who have kept their first estates, and we are not the only ones, there remains the great over-plus. They do not have the same heritage, the same kingdom, the same glory, that we shall have, and they have and can fall into the terrestrial, the telestial, and then the Doctrine and Covenants tells us there is a kingdom without any glory. (D&C 88:24.)

... We had our agency over there, and the Lord has so told us that and that it was because of the exercise of that agency that a third of the hosts of heaven rebelled. They did not keep their first estate and apparently the punishment to be inflicted upon them for their rebellion was that they should not have bodies....

Then the Lord goes on and tells us about the two beings who came and offered to build this earth and implement its creation. Satan, we learn from the other scriptures, declared that he would save everybody, apparently either take away their free agency or else cause that nothing they did would be a crime. The other one said he would do the will of the Father....

Now, this matter of body which, I take it, will come to those who keep their first estate; and those who do not keep their first estate, but who do not belong to the rebellious group, they all get bodies too. We have our bodies. We are not all born in the same circumstances, with the same advantages, and all the rest of it. But evidently the possession of a body was a great consideration, and I refer you, in that connection, to the incident of the Gadarene demons.

... I can imagine that those who did not keep their first estate but who still may come to earth and get a body, are anxious to come and get a body no matter what the conditions are ...

Joseph Fielding Smith, President of the Quorum of the Twelve, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:186. In the Book of Moses, Chapter 4, and in the Book of Abraham, Chapter 3, we are taught that there was a council held in heaven and our Eternal Father presented a plan by which we could come down on the earth and receive tabernacles (bodies) of flesh and bones for our spirits which are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We learn also that one third of those spirits rebelled against the plan and followed Satan. For this they were denied bodies of flesh and bones and have to remain spirits.... Well, there were other spirits there who were not faithful in keeping of this first estate (Abr 3:23-28). Yet they have not sinned away their right to receive bodies and come to earth and receive the resurrection. They were restricted in the privileges that were given to those who keep their first estate and who were promised to have "glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abr 3:26).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:151-152. The implication here [Abr 3:22-26] is very clear that all were capable of keeping their first estate, but that there would be many who would not do so. Therefore they were to receive rewards according to merit. The promise of reward therefore was open to all based on their faithfulness and obedience.

Heber J. Grant, Collected Discourses, Vol 3., November 6, 1892, n.p. We have been placed upon this earth because of our faithfulness in having kept our first estate. The labors that we performed in the sphere that we left before we came here have had a certain effect upon our lives here, and to a certain extent they govern and control the lives that we lead here, just the same as the labors that we do here will control and govern our lives when we pass from this stage of existence. It has been revealed to us, through the Prophet Joseph Smith, that whatever degree of intelligence we shall attain to in this life, the same will rise with us in the life to come. It is because of this knowledge that we will have an advantage over those that are negligent, in the life to come. It is now explained to my mind how some come into this world without any particular degree of energy or desire to labor for their fellows and for the spread of righteousness; it is because of their failure to have kept their first estate with diligence and with fidelity.

Elray L. Christiansen, BYU Speeches, March 24, 1964, 5. [Bracketed text in original.] And they who keep their first estate [in the pre-existence; and we did] shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; [This might give us some answer to the differences that we see among human beings.] and they who keep their second estate [in which we now find ourselves] shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. (Abraham 3:22-26.)

Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol. 1, No. 4, 53-54.
43. It is not likely that the final decision of the contending armies took place immediately. Many, no doubt, were unsettled in their views, unstable in their minds, and undecided as to which force to join; there may have been, for aught we know, many deserters from both armies: and there may have been a long period before the division line was so strictly drawn as to become unalterable. Laws, without doubt, were enacted, and penalties affixed, according to the nature of the offences or crimes; those who altogether turned from the Lord, and were determined to maintain the cause of Satan, and who proceeded to the utmost extremities of wickedness, placed themselves without the reach of redemption; therefore, such were prohibited from entering into a second probationary state, and had no privilege of receiving bodies of flesh and bones.
44. Among the two-thirds who remained, it is highly probable, that there were many who were not valiant in the war, but whose sins were of such a nature that they could be forgiven through faith in the future sufferings of the Only Begotten of the Father, and through their sincere repentance and reformation. We see no impropriety in Jesus offering Himself as an acceptable offering and sacrifice before the Father to atone for the sins of His brethren, committed, not only in the second, but also in the first estate. Certain it was, that the work which Jesus was to accomplish, was known in the Grand Council where the rebellion broke out; it was known that man would sin in his second estate; for it was upon the subject of his redemption that the assembly became divided, and which resulted in war....
46. If all the two-thirds who kept their first estate were equally valiant in the war, and equally faithful, why should some of them be called and chosen in the spiritual state to hold responsible stations and offices in this world, while others were not? If there were none of those spirits who sinned, why were the Apostles, when they existed in their previous state, chosen to be blessed "with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"? All these passages seem to convey an idea, that there were callings, choosings, ordinances, promises, predestinations, elections, and appointments, made before the world began.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 9:103-104, January 5, 1860. I will now leave these ideas, and turn my attention on to the remarks made by brother Lorenzo Snow in the forenoon. The principles and doctrine couched in those remarks are of great interest to the human family. I will take the liberty to treat upon the same principles, but shall carry the ideas still further, though in my own language and style of delivery. I will use a few words of Scripture concerning the evil that now exists and has existed upon the earth, referring to certain characters who have always been upon the earth and are still upon it, who are actually, to a great extent, "lording over God's heritage." I would plant my remarks here; and then for the context, I will use another saying--"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." I have but little time to expound and explain minutely, but will start at the beginning. God has created man in his own image, upright. Man in his creation is but a very little lower than the angels. In what degree and capacity is he lower than the angels? Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. They have kept their first estate far enough to preserve themselves in the Priesthood. They did not so violate the law of the Priesthood and condemn themselves to the sin against the Holy Ghost as to be finally lost. They are not crowned with the celestial ones. They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods, even the sons of God. Human beings that pertain to this world, who do not magnify or are not capable of magnifying their high calling in the Priesthood and receive crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives, will also, when they again receive their bodies, become angels and will receive a glory. They are single, without families or kingdoms to reign over. All the difference between men and angels is, men are passing through the day of trial that angels have already passed through. They belong to the same family that we do; but they have proven themselves worthy only of an exaltation to the state of angels, whereas we have the privilege of obtaining not only the same exaltation they enjoy, but of going further until we become Gods, even the sons of God.

B. H. Roberts, The Gospel and Man's Relationship to Deity, 279. I have called attention to these passages to prove that there were some spirits who dwelt with God, so wicked and rebellious that they had to be cast out of heaven, and became the devil and his angels; as well as some who had developed such nobility of character, that God had set them apart or ordained them to be his rulers. Between these two extremes of good and bad, obedient and rebellious were, I doubt not, all degrees of faithfulness and nobility of conduct; and I hazard the opinion that the amount and kind of development in that pre-existent state influences the character in this life, and brings within reach of men privileges and blessings commensurate with their faithfulness in the spirit world. Yet, I would not be understood as holding the opinion that those born to wealth and ease, whose lives appear to be an unbroken round of pleasure and happiness, must therefore have been spirits in their first estate thta were very highly developed in refinement, and very valiant for God and his Christ.

Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 33. From these [John 10:14,27; Rom 8:17,29; 9:11; Eph 1:4] and a host of other passages, it is clear that people do not all have the same talent for recognizing truth and believing the doctrines of salvation. Some heed the warning voice and believe the gospel; others do not.

(Page 34.) No two persons are born with the same talents and capacities; no two are rooted in the same soil of circumstances; each is unique. The cares of this world, gold and honor and power and renown, the lusts of the flesh, the chains of past sins, and a thousand other things -- all exert their influence upon us. But in the final sense the answer stems back to premortality.... And the talent of greatest worth was that of spirituality, or it enables us to hearken to the Holy Spirit and accept that gospel which prepares us for eternal life.

Men are not born equal. They enter this life with the talents and capacities developed in preexistence....

And as it is with the prophets, so is it with all the chosen seed. "God's elect," as Paul calls them (Rom 8:33), are especially endowed at birth with spiritual talents. It is easier for them to believe the gospel than it is for the generality of mankind.

(Page 39.) Do all of Abraham's seed believe the truth and pursue the course he charted? Not by any means.

(Page 40.) Speaking of Israel -- "my kinsmen according to the flesh," he calls them -- Paul says: "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:3,6-8.) [Meaning the obedient are really sons of Abraham, and the disobedient, even if they are in the blood-line, are not counted as sons of Abraham.]

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 357. The contention in heaven was -- Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

Intelligence

Marion G. Romney, Ensign, Nov. 1978, 14. Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings.

Bruce R. McConkie, Promised Messiah, 46. ... as a conscious identity, he [Jesus Christ - Jehovah] had a beginning. He was born, as were all the spirit children of the Father.... For him [Christ], as for all men -- and he is the Prototype -- the eternal spirit element that has neither beginning nor end, and is self-existent, by nature, was organized into a spirit body.

Bruce R. McConkie, "Intelligence," Mormon Doctrine, 387 (paperback edition). Intelligence, or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D&C 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits "the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abr 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element.

Bruce R. McConkie, "Spirit Element," Mormon Doctrine, 751 (paperback edition). "There is no such thing as immaterial matter," the Prophet tells us. "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." (D&C 131:7-8.) This spirit element has always existed; it is co-eternal [co-eval] with God. (Teachings, 352-354.) It is also called intelligence or the light of truth, which "was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29.)

Speaking of pre-existent spirits, Abraham calls them "the intelligences that were organized before the world was." (Abr 3:22-24.) Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences.

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:225-226. Pre-existence is the term commonly used to describe the pre-mortal existence of the spirit children of God the Father. Speaking of this prior existence in a spirit sphere, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) said: "All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity"; as spirits they were the "offspring of celestial parentage." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, 351, 355.) These spirit beings, the offspring of exalted parents, were men and women, appearing in all respects as mortal persons do, excepting only that their spirit bodies were made of a more pure and refined substance than the elements from which mortal bodies are made. (Ether 3:16; D&C 131:7-8.)

To understand the doctrine of pre-existence two great truths must be accepted:1. That God is a personal Being in whose image man is created, an exalted, perfected, and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57), and not a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; and 2. That matter or element is self existent and eternal in nature, creation being merely the organization and reorganization of that substance which 'was not created or made, neither indeed can be.' (D&C 93:29.) Unless God the Father was a personal Being, he could not have begotten spirits in his image, and if there had been no self-existent spirit element, there would have been no substance from which those spirit bodies could have been organized.

From the time of their spirit birth, the Father's pre-existent offspring were endowed with agency and subjected to the provisions of the laws ordained for their government. They had power to obey or disobey and to progress in one field or another. "The first principles of man are self-existent with God," the Prophet said. "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself." (Teachings, p. 354.)

The pre-existent life was thus a period -- undoubtedly an infinitely long one -- of probation, progression and schooling. The spirit hosts were taught and given experiences in various administrative capacities. Some so exercised their agency and so conformed to law as to become "noble and great"; these were foreordained before their mortal births to perform great missions for the Lord in this life. (Abr 3:22-28.) Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father. (D&C 93:21-23.) Mortal progression and testing is a continuation of what began in pre-existence. (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., 589-590.)

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:125. Why he [God] cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons.

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 5. Our spirit matter was eternal and coexistent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father.

Orson Pratt, Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, 61-70 (Millennial Star, 28:721-723). ... the substance of our spirits, like the substance of our bodies, had a pre-existence; that both are eternal, and that not one particle of either ever sprang from nothing; that creation signifies organization of pre-existent materials, and not the production of those materials from nothing

Orson Pratt, Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, 65-80 (Journal of Discourses 21:197-206). The world which we inhabit is a fallen creation, a fallen world, shut out from the presence of our Father, the being whom we worship, so that we cannot behold his face, nor the glory of his presence. It is for a wise purpose, that we are placed here, in this fallen condition. It seems to be so, as far as we have been made acquainted with the purpose of the great Jehovah. It seems to be the ordeal through which all intelligent beings must pass in order to gain that fulness of exaltation, in the presence of God, which is promised in his word.

We were not always in the condition we are now in. We are only placed here for a few years, and are adapted to our present condition. A long time before you and I came here upon this stage of action, we had an intelligent existence; we dwelt in a better world than this, and a world that had been sanctified and glorified; in other words, a world that had been redeemed, a world that had been made celestial, just as we are in hopes that our present world will, at some future period, be exalted to the celestial glory, and become the habitation of celestial beings. That world we occupied, before we came here, was celestial; our Father had his dwelling place there, or, at least, one of his dwelling places; and we were surrounded by our Father's glory, we were familiar with his countenance, familiar with the beautiful mansions that were there-familiar with all the gory that existed there, so far as we were capable of comprehending. There was no veil drawn between us and our Father, no veil drawn between us and the associates of our Father, who were also celestial beings, many of them having been redeemed from a world more ancient than ours. We had a long experience, I suppose, in that world; at least, we know from that which our Father has revealed to us, that we were born there; that this intelligent being that has power to discern, power to reflect, power to reason-that this intelligent being was born in that previous estate.

All men in the beginning were created after the image of this body which he was then showing [to the brother of Jared]. All the human family that then existed, and that would exist in future time upon the earth were created in the beginning, after the image of that body, that is, that body which he showed was not a body of flesh and bones, but a pure spiritual body, organized our of pure spiritual substance, filled with light and truth.

There is one thing connected with the temporal form of the earth which I did not mention; I will refer to it now. While this earth existed in its more perfect temporal form, Adam and Eve were placed upon it, and they were immortal, just like all the beasts and just like the fishes of the sea; death had not yet come upon any of them; all things were immortal so far as this creation was concerned. The first pairs, the beginning of this temporal work, were not subject to death. And another thing, they were not to be shut out from the presence of the Almighty.

James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, 466. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences we are to understand personal “spirits” (Abr 3:22, 23);; nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

One-Third Part (Not Just One-Third) D&C 29:36; Revelation 12:4.

John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, Ch. 11, 95. But having free agency, they used it; and Lucifer and a third part of the angels were cast out because they rebelled and used this agency in opposition to their Heavenly Father.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, 173–174. RINGS AND CLIQUES IN CHURCH GOVERNMENT.—But there are those in our midst, who, although they have a name and a standing in the church, disregard the authority of the priesthood, both local and general. I hear sometimes of parties, and of cliques, and of rings in our midst. What! a party in the church and kingdom of God? What! rings associated with the principles of eternal truth—associated with the celestial law that emanates from our Heavenly Father? The devil got up a ring and was cast out of heaven for getting it up, as also a third part of the spirits who associated themselves with him. They were cast out because they devised principles that were in opposition to the word and will and law of God, and every man who follows in their footsteps, unless he speedily repent, will be placed in the same position—will also be cast out. The law of God must be put in force against the transgressor. No man who professes to be a Latter-day Saint can transgress with impunity. The priesthood of God cannot be disregarded with impunity….

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:197. From the scriptural records available to us, from the sermons of the Prophet, and from a knowledge of the revealed requisites for becoming a son of perdition, we know that Cain was a liar and a rebel in pre-existence; that, like Lucifer, he had power and influence there; that in this life he was taught the gospel, received the priesthood, and knew of the divinity of the Lord’s work; that he then came out in open rebellion against God; that he in fact loved Satan more than God, choosing to worship and serve that evil one rather than the Lord; and that he offered false sacrifices at Satan’s behest and slew Abel because the devil directed him so to do. (Gen. 4; Moses 5:16-55.)

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:715. A comparable case is Cain. That son of Adam, though a friend of Lucifer in pre-existence, did manage to gain mortal birth. He could have hearkened to his Father Adam and walked in the strait and narrow path. But instead he chose to follow a course which he had already charted, in a very real sense, in his first estate, an estate where he had been known as Perdition. Coming from this background, Cain elected to use his agency to fight the truth in this life, and in his case he became a son of perdition. (Moses 5:16-59.)

Joseph Smith, Words of Joseph Smith, 200-201. No person can have this Salvation except through a tabernacle [physical body]. Now in this world mankind are naturally selfish, ambitious & striving to excel one above another. Yet some are willing to build up others as well as themselves. So in the other world there is a variety of spirits, some who seek to excel, & this was the case with the devil when he fell. He sought for things which were unlawful. Hence, he was cast down & it is said he drew away many with him & the greatness of his punishment is that he shall not have a tabernacle. This is his punishment.

Discourses of Brigham Young, 68. He came here, and one-third part of the spirits in heaven came with him. Do you suppose that one-third part of all beings that existed in eternity came with him? No, but one-third part of the spirits that were begotten and organized and brought forth to become tenants of fleshly bodies to dwell upon this earth. They forsook Jesus Christ, the rightful heir, and joined with Lucifer, the Son of the Morning, and came to this earth; they got here first. As soon as Mother Eve made her appearance in the garden of Eden, the Devil was on hand. (JD 3:368-369.)

Discourses of Brigham Young, 54-55. But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two-thirds of the heavenly host; and they were cast down to this world. It is written that they were cast down to the earth. They were cast down to this globe -- to this terra firma that you and I walk upon, and whose atmosphere we breathe. One-third part of the spirits that were prepared for this earth rebelled against Jesus Christ, and were cast down to the earth, and they have been opposed to him from that day to this, with Lucifer at their head. He is their general -- Lucifer, the Son of the Morning. He was once a brilliant and influential character in heaven, and we will know more about him hereafter. (JD 5:54-55.)

Discourses of Brigham Young, 379. If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits -- Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh. (JD 7:240.)

Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, 241. The devil did not make this earth. It never belonged to him, and never will; but Lucifer was cast down to the earth with the third part of the hosts of heaven, and they have dwelt here until today. They remain here yet; and they have had their effect upon the hearts and minds and lives of the children of men for nearly six thousand years--from the time that man was cast out of the Garden of Eden into the cold and dreary world. (JD 11:243, October 22, 1865.)

by **Col. Flagg** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:08 pm

AGalagaChiasmus wrote:Let me explain, no, that will take too long, so let me sum up.

Love that movie!

by **Col. Flagg** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 7:09 pm

gkearney wrote:Here is another question for you. Does Satan have agency? Could he choose now to stop tempting mankind and withdraw from the battle of good v. evil. And if he did so what would the effect be on God's plan given it dependence on opposition in all things.

I was wondering this very thing - maybe I'll bring it up on Sunday in GP.

by **Matthew.B** » Tue Jan 17, 2012 9:47 pm

I think this is a good question, and a lot of good has been shared so far.

When I saw the title of this post, I immediately thought of Abraham 3:28:

And there stood one among them that was like unto God, and he said unto those who were with him: We will go down, for there is space there, and we will take of these materials, and we will make an earth whereon these may dwell;

25 And we will prove them herewith, to see if they will do all things whatsoever the Lord their God shall command them;

26 And they who keep their first estate shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; and they who keep their second estate shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever.

27 And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me. And another answered and said: Here am I, send me. And the Lord said: I will send the first.

28 And the second was angry, and kept not his first estate; and, at that day, many followed after him.

There's a lot that goes into why Lucifer was angry, but the ultimate reason he refused to keep his first estate (in other words, the reason he fell) was because he was angry. If you've ever done anything spiteful, cruel, or even withheld charity from someone on account of anger, you know why Lucifer fell.

by **ldsfireguy** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:16 am

gkearney wrote:Here is another question for you. Does Satan have agency? Could he choose now to stop tempting mankind and withdraw from the battle of good v. evil. And if he did so what would the effect be on God's plan given it dependence on opposition in all things.

The answer to this is no, he no longer has agency - at least not as we perceive it. Does that mean that God has taken it away from him? Well, yes and no.

Agency is the ability to act independently within your sphere. The fact that an individual has no right to act independently or any way outside their sphere is not a curtailment of their agency, it is a function of their just boundaries. So, for example, we cannot speak or act right now in the spirit world because we are mortally bound.

Satan is bound by outer darkness - that is, no light can enter where he is. He cannot be near light, it does not exist where he exists. Without any light at all, repentance is simply not possible. There is no way at all to choose the light when there is absolutely no light in one's sphere of existence. The only "agency" he has is within his sphere - to enact harm upon the children of men, which men, when to do it, where to do it, how to do it ... Doing that harm is all that there is left to his existence - without it there would be nothing to his existence but to sit in silence and do nothing forever, and be subject to the evil darkness within which he resides - and that is a choice which he cannot make, again because it would require some light and there is none where he is.

As an aside, it would be extremely offensive for Satan to come in contact with the light because he is nothing but darkness himself, nothing but filthiness - so it would be an act of self-destruction for him to choose it even were it possible. After you have killed a billion or more people personally, after you have raped a million women, after you have tortured to death a half million children, the light of Christ is the ultimate offense, even unto death.

Satan is nothing but a sensient black hole - he has no power other than to pursue what we call evil. To think of him in terms of a rational being, as some sort of person, is a mistake. He is not a person, and at this point he is not really a spirit offspring of the Father - he has become something entirely different, something akin to a force of evil.

The evil in the presence of him or one of his followers is palpable, and is so great that it would immediately become obvious that in them is no repentance possible in the least degree.

by **7cylon7** » Wed Jan 18, 2012 10:33 am

Rensai wrote:Imagine yourself as a spirit listening to Christ outline the plan. Now imagine a horrible sinking feeling as you realize you can't possibly succeed and will be damned by that plan because you know yourself well enough to know how you would perform. Do you follow the plan anyway, knowing you will be damned by it? Or do you rebel and grasp for whatever you can? Its not an easy choice either way.

This is partly conjecture, but I imagine this is the choice Satan and many others faced.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 357. The contention in heaven was -- Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

How appealing is Satan's plan if you know you cannot succeed under Christs? It must have been pretty tempting to lead away so many spirits. I don't think Satan was ignorant or stupid or any of the other things commonly ascribed to him. He was a son of the morning and obviously a spirit of great influence. I think he faced a very hard choice and became consumed with hate and bitterness over it. How would you feel if your father announced a plan to you that meant some of your siblings would be saved, but you, one of his elder children, would fail no matter what choice you made?

If a given spirit felt they were doomed as Christ outlined his plan, imagine the hope that must have surged through them when Satan started selling his alternative plan to save all. Even many spirits who thought they would do well in life must have been tempted by it. The chance to be sure is hard to pass up. Or imagine knowing that Christs plan is correct, but that it would damn the brother/sister you love. The war in heaven had to be an agonizing choice for us all.

There is a paper from BYU with quotes that touch on this topic.
http://emp.byui.edu/marrottr/PreexistFirstEstate.htm

The Preexistent First Estate

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., Conference Report, 6 Oct 1956, 82-86. "The Ideology of Equality," Messages of Inspiration, comp. by Deseret Book Company, 1957, 20-30. In that great body of intelligences [quoting from Abraham 3:19-26] there were those whom the Lord has described as "noble and great ones"; obviously others were not noble and great....

Then the scripture tells us that there were two who stood up. Each one wanted to create this new world that they had talked about. This is the Grand Council that we talk about, where all of us presumably were. Some were "noble and great ones," and some of us were not. We were not equal in that Grand Council, have no mistake about that....

We understand that we kept our first estate, we who belong to this Church, that we have received the Gospel, and if we live as we should, we will be "added upon."

"... and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate ..." (Abr 3:26.)

The Lord has told us that we have three kingdoms, celestial, terrestrial, and telestial; he has told us who will be, in great broad classifications, in each of these kingdoms, possess each of these glories....

I am not undertaking to declare doctrine or Gospel, but as I read that, and as I understand it, it means that after we, so to speak, have been taken out, those who have kept their first estates, and we are not the only ones, there remains the great over-plus. They do not have the same heritage, the same kingdom, the same glory, that we shall have, and they have and can fall into the terrestrial, the telestial, and then the Doctrine and Covenants tells us there is a kingdom without any glory. (D&C 88:24.)

... We had our agency over there, and the Lord has so told us that and that it was because of the exercise of that agency that a third of the hosts of heaven rebelled. They did not keep their first estate and apparently the punishment to be inflicted upon them for their rebellion was that they should not have bodies....

Then the Lord goes on and tells us about the two beings who came and offered to build this earth and implement its creation. Satan, we learn from the other scriptures, declared that he would save everybody, apparently either take away their free agency or else cause that nothing they did would be a crime. The other one said he would do the will of the Father....

Now, this matter of body which, I take it, will come to those who keep their first estate; and those who do not keep their first estate, but who do not belong to the rebellious group, they all get bodies too. We have our bodies. We are not all born in the same circumstances, with the same advantages, and all the rest of it. But evidently the possession of a body was a great consideration, and I refer you, in that connection, to the incident of the Gadarene demons.

... I can imagine that those who did not keep their first estate but who still may come to earth and get a body, are anxious to come and get a body no matter what the conditions are ...

Joseph Fielding Smith, President of the Quorum of the Twelve, Answers to Gospel Questions 2:186. In the Book of Moses, Chapter 4, and in the Book of Abraham, Chapter 3, we are taught that there was a council held in heaven and our Eternal Father presented a plan by which we could come down on the earth and receive tabernacles (bodies) of flesh and bones for our spirits which are begotten sons and daughters unto God. We learn also that one third of those spirits rebelled against the plan and followed Satan. For this they were denied bodies of flesh and bones and have to remain spirits.... Well, there were other spirits there who were not faithful in keeping of this first estate (Abr 3:23-28). Yet they have not sinned away their right to receive bodies and come to earth and receive the resurrection. They were restricted in the privileges that were given to those who keep their first estate and who were promised to have "glory added upon their heads for ever and ever" (Abr 3:26).

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 4:151-152. The implication here [Abr 3:22-26] is very clear that all were capable of keeping their first estate, but that there would be many who would not do so. Therefore they were to receive rewards according to merit. The promise of reward therefore was open to all based on their faithfulness and obedience.

Heber J. Grant, Collected Discourses, Vol 3., November 6, 1892, n.p. We have been placed upon this earth because of our faithfulness in having kept our first estate. The labors that we performed in the sphere that we left before we came here have had a certain effect upon our lives here, and to a certain extent they govern and control the lives that we lead here, just the same as the labors that we do here will control and govern our lives when we pass from this stage of existence. It has been revealed to us, through the Prophet Joseph Smith, that whatever degree of intelligence we shall attain to in this life, the same will rise with us in the life to come. It is because of this knowledge that we will have an advantage over those that are negligent, in the life to come. It is now explained to my mind how some come into this world without any particular degree of energy or desire to labor for their fellows and for the spread of righteousness; it is because of their failure to have kept their first estate with diligence and with fidelity.

Elray L. Christiansen, BYU Speeches, March 24, 1964, 5. [Bracketed text in original.] And they who keep their first estate [in the pre-existence; and we did] shall be added upon; and they who keep not their first estate shall not have glory in the same kingdom with those who keep their first estate; [This might give us some answer to the differences that we see among human beings.] and they who keep their second estate [in which we now find ourselves] shall have glory added upon their heads for ever and ever. (Abraham 3:22-26.)

Orson Pratt, The Seer, Vol. 1, No. 4, 53-54.
43. It is not likely that the final decision of the contending armies took place immediately. Many, no doubt, were unsettled in their views, unstable in their minds, and undecided as to which force to join; there may have been, for aught we know, many deserters from both armies: and there may have been a long period before the division line was so strictly drawn as to become unalterable. Laws, without doubt, were enacted, and penalties affixed, according to the nature of the offences or crimes; those who altogether turned from the Lord, and were determined to maintain the cause of Satan, and who proceeded to the utmost extremities of wickedness, placed themselves without the reach of redemption; therefore, such were prohibited from entering into a second probationary state, and had no privilege of receiving bodies of flesh and bones.
44. Among the two-thirds who remained, it is highly probable, that there were many who were not valiant in the war, but whose sins were of such a nature that they could be forgiven through faith in the future sufferings of the Only Begotten of the Father, and through their sincere repentance and reformation. We see no impropriety in Jesus offering Himself as an acceptable offering and sacrifice before the Father to atone for the sins of His brethren, committed, not only in the second, but also in the first estate. Certain it was, that the work which Jesus was to accomplish, was known in the Grand Council where the rebellion broke out; it was known that man would sin in his second estate; for it was upon the subject of his redemption that the assembly became divided, and which resulted in war....
46. If all the two-thirds who kept their first estate were equally valiant in the war, and equally faithful, why should some of them be called and chosen in the spiritual state to hold responsible stations and offices in this world, while others were not? If there were none of those spirits who sinned, why were the Apostles, when they existed in their previous state, chosen to be blessed "with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ"? All these passages seem to convey an idea, that there were callings, choosings, ordinances, promises, predestinations, elections, and appointments, made before the world began.

Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses, 9:103-104, January 5, 1860. I will now leave these ideas, and turn my attention on to the remarks made by brother Lorenzo Snow in the forenoon. The principles and doctrine couched in those remarks are of great interest to the human family. I will take the liberty to treat upon the same principles, but shall carry the ideas still further, though in my own language and style of delivery. I will use a few words of Scripture concerning the evil that now exists and has existed upon the earth, referring to certain characters who have always been upon the earth and are still upon it, who are actually, to a great extent, "lording over God's heritage." I would plant my remarks here; and then for the context, I will use another saying--"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." I have but little time to expound and explain minutely, but will start at the beginning. God has created man in his own image, upright. Man in his creation is but a very little lower than the angels. In what degree and capacity is he lower than the angels? Angels are those beings who have been on an earth like this, and have passed through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. They have kept their first estate far enough to preserve themselves in the Priesthood. They did not so violate the law of the Priesthood and condemn themselves to the sin against the Holy Ghost as to be finally lost. They are not crowned with the celestial ones. They are persons who have lived upon an earth, but did not magnify the Priesthood in that high degree that many others have done who have become Gods, even the sons of God. Human beings that pertain to this world, who do not magnify or are not capable of magnifying their high calling in the Priesthood and receive crowns of glory, immortality, and eternal lives, will also, when they again receive their bodies, become angels and will receive a glory. They are single, without families or kingdoms to reign over. All the difference between men and angels is, men are passing through the day of trial that angels have already passed through. They belong to the same family that we do; but they have proven themselves worthy only of an exaltation to the state of angels, whereas we have the privilege of obtaining not only the same exaltation they enjoy, but of going further until we become Gods, even the sons of God.

B. H. Roberts, The Gospel and Man's Relationship to Deity, 279. I have called attention to these passages to prove that there were some spirits who dwelt with God, so wicked and rebellious that they had to be cast out of heaven, and became the devil and his angels; as well as some who had developed such nobility of character, that God had set them apart or ordained them to be his rulers. Between these two extremes of good and bad, obedient and rebellious were, I doubt not, all degrees of faithfulness and nobility of conduct; and I hazard the opinion that the amount and kind of development in that pre-existent state influences the character in this life, and brings within reach of men privileges and blessings commensurate with their faithfulness in the spirit world. Yet, I would not be understood as holding the opinion that those born to wealth and ease, whose lives appear to be an unbroken round of pleasure and happiness, must therefore have been spirits in their first estate thta were very highly developed in refinement, and very valiant for God and his Christ.

Bruce R. McConkie, A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, 33. From these [John 10:14,27; Rom 8:17,29; 9:11; Eph 1:4] and a host of other passages, it is clear that people do not all have the same talent for recognizing truth and believing the doctrines of salvation. Some heed the warning voice and believe the gospel; others do not.

(Page 34.) No two persons are born with the same talents and capacities; no two are rooted in the same soil of circumstances; each is unique. The cares of this world, gold and honor and power and renown, the lusts of the flesh, the chains of past sins, and a thousand other things -- all exert their influence upon us. But in the final sense the answer stems back to premortality.... And the talent of greatest worth was that of spirituality, or it enables us to hearken to the Holy Spirit and accept that gospel which prepares us for eternal life.

Men are not born equal. They enter this life with the talents and capacities developed in preexistence....

And as it is with the prophets, so is it with all the chosen seed. "God's elect," as Paul calls them (Rom 8:33), are especially endowed at birth with spiritual talents. It is easier for them to believe the gospel than it is for the generality of mankind.

(Page 39.) Do all of Abraham's seed believe the truth and pursue the course he charted? Not by any means.

(Page 40.) Speaking of Israel -- "my kinsmen according to the flesh," he calls them -- Paul says: "They are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, in Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:3,6-8.) [Meaning the obedient are really sons of Abraham, and the disobedient, even if they are in the blood-line, are not counted as sons of Abraham.]

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pg 357. The contention in heaven was -- Jesus said there would be certain souls that would not be saved; and the devil said he could save them all, and laid his plans before the grand council, who gave their vote in favor of Jesus Christ. So the devil rose up in rebellion against God, and was cast down, with all who put up their heads for him.

Intelligence

Marion G. Romney, Ensign, Nov. 1978, 14. Through that birth process, self-existing intelligence was organized into individual spirit beings.

Bruce R. McConkie, Promised Messiah, 46. ... as a conscious identity, he [Jesus Christ - Jehovah] had a beginning. He was born, as were all the spirit children of the Father.... For him [Christ], as for all men -- and he is the Prototype -- the eternal spirit element that has neither beginning nor end, and is self-existent, by nature, was organized into a spirit body.

Bruce R. McConkie, "Intelligence," Mormon Doctrine, 387 (paperback edition). Intelligence, or light and truth, is also used as a synonym for spirit element. Scriptures using both terms speak of the self-existent nature of the substance involved. (D&C 93:29; 131:7-8.) Abraham calls the pre-existent spirits "the intelligences that were organized before the world was" (Abr 3:22) because the intelligences were organized intelligence or in other words the spirit bodies were born from spirit element.

Bruce R. McConkie, "Spirit Element," Mormon Doctrine, 751 (paperback edition). "There is no such thing as immaterial matter," the Prophet tells us. "All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes; We cannot see it; but when our bodies are purified we shall see that it is all matter." (D&C 131:7-8.) This spirit element has always existed; it is co-eternal [co-eval] with God. (Teachings, 352-354.) It is also called intelligence or the light of truth, which "was not created or made, neither indeed can be." (D&C 93:29.)

Speaking of pre-existent spirits, Abraham calls them "the intelligences that were organized before the world was." (Abr 3:22-24.) Thus, portions of the self-existent spirit element are born as spirit children, or in other words the intelligence which cannot be created or made, because it is self-existent, is organized into intelligences.

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:225-226. Pre-existence is the term commonly used to describe the pre-mortal existence of the spirit children of God the Father. Speaking of this prior existence in a spirit sphere, the First Presidency of the Church (Joseph F. Smith, John R. Winder, and Anthon H. Lund) said: "All men and women are in the similitude of the universal Father and Mother, and are literally the sons and daughters of Deity"; as spirits they were the "offspring of celestial parentage." (Man: His Origin and Destiny, 351, 355.) These spirit beings, the offspring of exalted parents, were men and women, appearing in all respects as mortal persons do, excepting only that their spirit bodies were made of a more pure and refined substance than the elements from which mortal bodies are made. (Ether 3:16; D&C 131:7-8.)

To understand the doctrine of pre-existence two great truths must be accepted:1. That God is a personal Being in whose image man is created, an exalted, perfected, and glorified Man of Holiness (Moses 6:57), and not a spirit essence that fills the immensity of space; and 2. That matter or element is self existent and eternal in nature, creation being merely the organization and reorganization of that substance which 'was not created or made, neither indeed can be.' (D&C 93:29.) Unless God the Father was a personal Being, he could not have begotten spirits in his image, and if there had been no self-existent spirit element, there would have been no substance from which those spirit bodies could have been organized.

From the time of their spirit birth, the Father's pre-existent offspring were endowed with agency and subjected to the provisions of the laws ordained for their government. They had power to obey or disobey and to progress in one field or another. "The first principles of man are self-existent with God," the Prophet said. "God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself." (Teachings, p. 354.)

The pre-existent life was thus a period -- undoubtedly an infinitely long one -- of probation, progression and schooling. The spirit hosts were taught and given experiences in various administrative capacities. Some so exercised their agency and so conformed to law as to become "noble and great"; these were foreordained before their mortal births to perform great missions for the Lord in this life. (Abr 3:22-28.) Christ, the Firstborn, was the mightiest of all the spirit children of the Father. (D&C 93:21-23.) Mortal progression and testing is a continuation of what began in pre-existence. (Mormon Doctrine, 2nd ed., 589-590.)

Joseph Fielding Smith, Answers to Gospel Questions, 3:125. Why he [God] cannot create intelligence is simply because intelligence, like time and space, always existed, and therefore did not have to be created. However, intelligences spoken of in the Book of Abraham were created, for these are spirit children of God, begotten sons.

Spencer W. Kimball, Miracle of Forgiveness, 5. Our spirit matter was eternal and coexistent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father.

Orson Pratt, Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, 61-70 (Millennial Star, 28:721-723). ... the substance of our spirits, like the substance of our bodies, had a pre-existence; that both are eternal, and that not one particle of either ever sprang from nothing; that creation signifies organization of pre-existent materials, and not the production of those materials from nothing

Orson Pratt, Masterful Discourses of Orson Pratt, 65-80 (Journal of Discourses 21:197-206). The world which we inhabit is a fallen creation, a fallen world, shut out from the presence of our Father, the being whom we worship, so that we cannot behold his face, nor the glory of his presence. It is for a wise purpose, that we are placed here, in this fallen condition. It seems to be so, as far as we have been made acquainted with the purpose of the great Jehovah. It seems to be the ordeal through which all intelligent beings must pass in order to gain that fulness of exaltation, in the presence of God, which is promised in his word.

We were not always in the condition we are now in. We are only placed here for a few years, and are adapted to our present condition. A long time before you and I came here upon this stage of action, we had an intelligent existence; we dwelt in a better world than this, and a world that had been sanctified and glorified; in other words, a world that had been redeemed, a world that had been made celestial, just as we are in hopes that our present world will, at some future period, be exalted to the celestial glory, and become the habitation of celestial beings. That world we occupied, before we came here, was celestial; our Father had his dwelling place there, or, at least, one of his dwelling places; and we were surrounded by our Father's glory, we were familiar with his countenance, familiar with the beautiful mansions that were there-familiar with all the gory that existed there, so far as we were capable of comprehending. There was no veil drawn between us and our Father, no veil drawn between us and the associates of our Father, who were also celestial beings, many of them having been redeemed from a world more ancient than ours. We had a long experience, I suppose, in that world; at least, we know from that which our Father has revealed to us, that we were born there; that this intelligent being that has power to discern, power to reflect, power to reason-that this intelligent being was born in that previous estate.

All men in the beginning were created after the image of this body which he was then showing [to the brother of Jared]. All the human family that then existed, and that would exist in future time upon the earth were created in the beginning, after the image of that body, that is, that body which he showed was not a body of flesh and bones, but a pure spiritual body, organized our of pure spiritual substance, filled with light and truth.

There is one thing connected with the temporal form of the earth which I did not mention; I will refer to it now. While this earth existed in its more perfect temporal form, Adam and Eve were placed upon it, and they were immortal, just like all the beasts and just like the fishes of the sea; death had not yet come upon any of them; all things were immortal so far as this creation was concerned. The first pairs, the beginning of this temporal work, were not subject to death. And another thing, they were not to be shut out from the presence of the Almighty.

James E. Talmage, Articles of Faith, 466. God showed unto Abraham “the intelligences that were organized before the world was”; and by “intelligences we are to understand personal “spirits” (Abr 3:22, 23);; nevertheless, we are expressly told that “Intelligence” that is, “the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be” (D&C 93:29).

One-Third Part (Not Just One-Third) D&C 29:36; Revelation 12:4.

John Taylor, Mediation and Atonement, Ch. 11, 95. But having free agency, they used it; and Lucifer and a third part of the angels were cast out because they rebelled and used this agency in opposition to their Heavenly Father.

John Taylor, The Gospel Kingdom, 173–174. RINGS AND CLIQUES IN CHURCH GOVERNMENT.—But there are those in our midst, who, although they have a name and a standing in the church, disregard the authority of the priesthood, both local and general. I hear sometimes of parties, and of cliques, and of rings in our midst. What! a party in the church and kingdom of God? What! rings associated with the principles of eternal truth—associated with the celestial law that emanates from our Heavenly Father? The devil got up a ring and was cast out of heaven for getting it up, as also a third part of the spirits who associated themselves with him. They were cast out because they devised principles that were in opposition to the word and will and law of God, and every man who follows in their footsteps, unless he speedily repent, will be placed in the same position—will also be cast out. The law of God must be put in force against the transgressor. No man who professes to be a Latter-day Saint can transgress with impunity. The priesthood of God cannot be disregarded with impunity….

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3:197. From the scriptural records available to us, from the sermons of the Prophet, and from a knowledge of the revealed requisites for becoming a son of perdition, we know that Cain was a liar and a rebel in pre-existence; that, like Lucifer, he had power and influence there; that in this life he was taught the gospel, received the priesthood, and knew of the divinity of the Lord’s work; that he then came out in open rebellion against God; that he in fact loved Satan more than God, choosing to worship and serve that evil one rather than the Lord; and that he offered false sacrifices at Satan’s behest and slew Abel because the devil directed him so to do. (Gen. 4; Moses 5:16-55.)

Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 1:715. A comparable case is Cain. That son of Adam, though a friend of Lucifer in pre-existence, did manage to gain mortal birth. He could have hearkened to his Father Adam and walked in the strait and narrow path. But instead he chose to follow a course which he had already charted, in a very real sense, in his first estate, an estate where he had been known as Perdition. Coming from this background, Cain elected to use his agency to fight the truth in this life, and in his case he became a son of perdition. (Moses 5:16-59.)

Joseph Smith, Words of Joseph Smith, 200-201. No person can have this Salvation except through a tabernacle [physical body]. Now in this world mankind are naturally selfish, ambitious & striving to excel one above another. Yet some are willing to build up others as well as themselves. So in the other world there is a variety of spirits, some who seek to excel, & this was the case with the devil when he fell. He sought for things which were unlawful. Hence, he was cast down & it is said he drew away many with him & the greatness of his punishment is that he shall not have a tabernacle. This is his punishment.

Discourses of Brigham Young, 68. He came here, and one-third part of the spirits in heaven came with him. Do you suppose that one-third part of all beings that existed in eternity came with him? No, but one-third part of the spirits that were begotten and organized and brought forth to become tenants of fleshly bodies to dwell upon this earth. They forsook Jesus Christ, the rightful heir, and joined with Lucifer, the Son of the Morning, and came to this earth; they got here first. As soon as Mother Eve made her appearance in the garden of Eden, the Devil was on hand. (JD 3:368-369.)

Discourses of Brigham Young, 54-55. But let me tell you that it was one-third part of the spirits who were prepared to take tabernacles upon this earth, and who rebelled against the other two-thirds of the heavenly host; and they were cast down to this world. It is written that they were cast down to the earth. They were cast down to this globe -- to this terra firma that you and I walk upon, and whose atmosphere we breathe. One-third part of the spirits that were prepared for this earth rebelled against Jesus Christ, and were cast down to the earth, and they have been opposed to him from that day to this, with Lucifer at their head. He is their general -- Lucifer, the Son of the Morning. He was once a brilliant and influential character in heaven, and we will know more about him hereafter. (JD 5:54-55.)

Discourses of Brigham Young, 379. If we are faithful to our religion, when we go into the spirit world, the fallen spirits -- Lucifer and the third part of the heavenly hosts that came with him, and the spirits of wicked men who have dwelt upon this earth, the whole of them combined will have no influence over our spirits. Is not that an advantage? Yes. All the rest of the children of men are more or less subject to them, and they are subject to them as they were while here in the flesh. (JD 7:240.)

Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, 241. The devil did not make this earth. It never belonged to him, and never will; but Lucifer was cast down to the earth with the third part of the hosts of heaven, and they have dwelt here until today. They remain here yet; and they have had their effect upon the hearts and minds and lives of the children of men for nearly six thousand years--from the time that man was cast out of the Garden of Eden into the cold and dreary world. (JD 11:243, October 22, 1865.)

Thank you. That was a great post. I read your entire article and have it now in my library of great articles.

by **chase** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 11:49 am

bobhenstra wrote:Wasn't it that Lucifer sought higher office?

Everyone coming to this earth came seeking to become like God. That is a righteous desire. God has more knowledge than Satan. He also has more knowledge than us. Yet, we disobey him all the time. Why? Are we stupid? Yes. Satan carried his sin to outright rebellion. Sometimes we do the same. Sometimes we know what's best and still choose the opposite.

by **bobhenstra** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:07 pm

Satan wanted to be the Savior, that's the higher office he sought! In his bid to get higher office he made promises that went against higher law, law in control of the Father. Our Father called the second petitioner to the position, the offer made within the higher law.

Lucifer has not lost his agency? No, never will! Agency is one of those higher laws! Will Lucifer and his followers eventually repent? Honestly, I don't know, I can find no scripture supporting that Idea. But in my opinion I think they will eventually repent, they are after all wayward Children of the Most High, prodigal sons if you will allow! And, there is always the Parable of the Potter (Jeremiah 18). My Father in Heaven is smart enough to allow for them!

Bob

by **sbsion** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 4:52 pm

no question about it.............it IS his NATURE, we all are, and will be, why would anyone choose the telestial kingdom, or even the terrestial, or the celestial without marriage?

by **davedan** » Mon Feb 27, 2012 7:48 pm

Same reason the guy who lives in a hole in the ground down by the river. This guy comes into the ER and I'm sewing up his face after his hole-mate beat him in the face with a beer bottle and stole some money to buy drugs. So I asked him " why live in a hole ?"

He falsely claims he can do what he wants and no one tells him what do do.

by **jcricket6048** » Tue Feb 28, 2012 2:03 pm

kathyn wrote:I think his ego and pride convinced him he could win....the most disastrous mistake ever.

I often has questioned myself since I have a hearing disability on both ears. I ask God several times when I was young why did I make the choice of coming here with a malfunction body and going through all of the hardship that I had toe endure in my youth. Later when I got older my life changed and I noticed that my personality and attitude changed from why to grateful. You see Satan wants everything to be easy and since the 1/3 thought this was a good idea lost the war in heaven. You do remember when Eve partake of the fruit of good and evil and notice that she started to understand and got Adam to partake of the fruit also. Their eyes begin to open and the understanding started to kick in now Satan would of never understand this because he wanted things to be easy without any understanding of difference between right and wrong, pain or joy, sweet or bitter, love or hate and etc. I think you get the picture now my question was back then was why did I chose to come here with hearing problem? Well because I knew that God will provide me with resources to succeed as long as I continue to believe in Him. This has changed my live around and made me a believer in what I am doing today. Taking lessons from our mistakes and changed them will only make us wiser and have a better understanding of our existence and part in this grand plan that our Father in Heaven provided for us. To me having a hearing disability have given me a the answer I needed when I am down or when life gets hard. I will always remember why I came here on earth and that is to experience and then report to him of all of my stewardship to Him. My disability has taught me courage to move on, has given me a wonderful personality and a beautiful attitude towards all men. With Satan's plan we would never experience this or understand what is the purpose of life. It would be like communism where things are given to you and never understand why. So I am grateful for what I have and I al glad that I chose Heavenly Father's plan.

by **gdemetz** » Wed May 02, 2012 2:43 am

That is correct Agalaga! Satan sought God's power which was His honor (see D&C 29:36). This is the honor given to God by all the vast seas of intelligences which make up what we term to be the "light of Christ." This honor is the source of God's power (see D&C 88:7-13), and it is the power behind the priesthood. God can command these intelligences which are in, and control the matter, and they obey Him. They obey, not because of any force, but because of love, respect, and honor, and this is the secret of God's power, and this is what Satan coveted. God can and does delegate this power to those that "have been cleansed from sin every whit," but no one could do a miracle otherwise, as the Book of Mormon states. However, it also states that if God would not be just, then He would cease to be God. How could this happen? It could happen if these intelligences would cease to honor God in the event that He would not act accordingly. However, I am confident that would never happen!

by **braingrunt** » Wed May 02, 2012 11:33 am

to a proud soul grace is extremely offensive.

by **sbsion** » Wed May 02, 2012 12:05 pm

he KNEW no other way, and "felt" it was whats best for eternal life

by **Legion** » Wed May 02, 2012 12:30 pm

davedan wrote:Same reason the guy who lives in a hole in the ground down by the river. This guy comes into the ER and I'm sewing up his face after his hole-mate beat him in the face with a beer bottle and stole some money to buy drugs. So I asked him " why live in a hole ?"

He falsely claims he can do what he wants and no one tells him what do do.

Some people think he's completely free....no taxes, no responsibilities, no duties, etc....

by **Legion** » Wed May 02, 2012 1:13 pm

ldsfireguy wrote:
gkearney wrote:Here is another question for you. Does Satan have agency? Could he choose now to stop tempting mankind and withdraw from the battle of good v. evil. And if he did so what would the effect be on God's plan given it dependence on opposition in all things.

The answer to this is no, he no longer has agency - at least not as we perceive it. Does that mean that God has taken it away from him? Well, yes and no.

Agency is the ability to act independently within your sphere. The fact that an individual has no right to act independently or any way outside their sphere is not a curtailment of their agency, it is a function of their just boundaries. So, for example, we cannot speak or act right now in the spirit world because we are mortally bound.

Satan is bound by outer darkness - that is, no light can enter where he is. He cannot be near light, it does not exist where he exists. Without any light at all, repentance is simply not possible. There is no way at all to choose the light when there is absolutely no light in one's sphere of existence. The only "agency" he has is within his sphere - to enact harm upon the children of men, which men, when to do it, where to do it, how to do it ... Doing that harm is all that there is left to his existence - without it there would be nothing to his existence but to sit in silence and do nothing forever, and be subject to the evil darkness within which he resides - and that is a choice which he cannot make, again because it would require some light and there is none where he is.

As an aside, it would be extremely offensive for Satan to come in contact with the light because he is nothing but darkness himself, nothing but filthiness - so it would be an act of self-destruction for him to choose it even were it possible. After you have killed a billion or more people personally, after you have raped a million women, after you have tortured to death a half million children, the light of Christ is the ultimate offense, even unto death.

Satan is nothing but a sensient black hole - he has no power other than to pursue what we call evil. To think of him in terms of a rational being, as some sort of person, is a mistake. He is not a person, and at this point he is not really a spirit offspring of the Father - he has become something entirely different, something akin to a force of evil.

The evil in the presence of him or one of his followers is palpable, and is so great that it would immediately become obvious that in them is no repentance possible in the least degree.

Fascinating thoughts. Thank you for sharing! It makes sense with the fact that the 1/3 who chose to follow him lost their agency.

After Heavenly Father presented His plan, Lucifer stepped forward, saying, “Send me, … and I will redeem all mankind, that [not even] one soul shall … be lost … ; wherefore give me thine honor.” 5 This plan was rejected by our Father, for it would have denied us our agency. Indeed, it was a plan of rebellion.

Then Jesus Christ, Heavenly Father’s “Beloved and Chosen [Son] from the beginning,” exercised His agency to say, “Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” 6 He would be our Savior—the Savior of the world.

Because of Lucifer’s rebellion, a great spiritual conflict ensued. Each of Heavenly Father’s children had the opportunity to exercise the agency Heavenly Father had given him or her. We chose to have faith in the Savior Jesus Christ—to come unto Him, follow Him, and accept the plan Heavenly Father presented for our sakes. But a third of Heavenly Father’s children did not have faith to follow the Savior and chose to follow Lucifer, or Satan, instead. 7

And God said, “Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, … I caused that he should be cast down.” 8 Those who followed Satan lost the opportunity to receive a mortal body, live on earth, and progress. Because of the way they used their agency, they lost their agency.

Today the only power Satan and his followers have is the power to tempt and try us. Their only joy is to make us “miserable like unto [themselves].” 9 Their only happiness comes when we are disobedient to the Lord’s commandments.

In our mortal journey, it is helpful to remember that the opposite is also true: when we don’t keep the commandments or follow the promptings of the Holy Ghost, our opportunities are reduced; our abilities to act and progress are diminished. When Cain took his brother’s life because he loved Satan more than God, his spiritual progress was stopped.

The world teaches many falsehoods about agency. Many think we should “eat, drink, and be merry; … and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved.” 17 Others embrace secularism and deny God. They convince themselves that there is no “opposition in all things” 18 and, therefore, “whatsoever a man [does is] no crime.” 19 This “destroy[s] the wisdom of God and his eternal purposes.” 20

Contrary to the world’s secular teaching, the scriptures teach us that we do have agency, and our righteous exercise of agency always makes a difference in the opportunities we have and our ability to act upon them and progress eternally.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

First, there must be alternatives among which to choose. Lehi spoke of opposites, or “opposition”—righteousness and its opposite, wickedness; holiness versus misery; good versus bad. Without opposites, Lehi said, “All things must needs be a compound in one; … no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility” (2 Nephi 2:11).

He further explained that for these opposites or alternatives to exist, there must be law. Law provides us the options. It is by the operation of laws that things happen. By using or obeying a law, one can bring about a particular result—and by disobedience, the opposite result. Without law there could be no God, for He would be powerless to cause anything to happen (see 2 Nephi 2:13). Without law, neither He nor we would be able to predict or choose a particular outcome by a given action. Our existence and the creation around us are convincing evidence that God, the Creator, exists and that our mortal world consists of “both things to act and things to be acted upon” (2 Nephi 2:14)—or, in other words, choices.

Freedom of choice is the freedom to obey or disobey existing laws—not the freedom to alter their consequences. Law, as mentioned earlier, exists as a foundational element of moral agency with fixed outcomes that do not vary according to our opinions or preferences. Elder Dallin H. Oaks of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles observed, “We are responsible to use our agency in a world of choices. It will not do to pretend that our agency has been taken away when we are not free to exercise it without unwelcome consequences.”

We recognize the gift of agency as a central aspect of the plan of salvation proposed by the Father in the great premortal council, and that “there was war in heaven” (Revelation 12:7) to defend and preserve it. The Lord revealed to Moses:

“Wherefore, because that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him, and also, that I should give unto him mine own power; by the power of mine Only Begotten, I caused that he should be cast down;

“And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will, even as many as would not hearken unto my voice” (Moses 4:3–4).

Satan has not ceased his efforts “to destroy the agency of man.” He promotes conduct and choices that limit our freedom to choose by replacing the influence of the Holy Spirit with his own domination (see D&C 29:40; 93:38–39). Yielding to his temptations leads to a narrower and narrower range of choices until none remains and to addictions that leave us powerless to resist. While Satan cannot actually destroy law and truth, he accomplishes the same result in the lives of those who heed him by convincing them that whatever they think is right is right and that there is no ultimate truth—every man is his own god, and there is no sin. [Law unto themselves]

Being Jesus’s obedient disciple—just as He is the Father’s obedient disciple—leads to truth and freedom: “If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed” (John 8:36).

But the Lord’s statement that the truth will make us free has broader significance. “Truth,” He tells us, “is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come” (D&C 93:24). Possession of this knowledge of things past, present, and future is a critical element of God’s glory: “The glory of God is intelligence, or, in other words, light and truth” (D&C 93:36). Does anyone doubt that, as a consequence of possessing all light and truth, God possesses ultimate freedom to be and to do?

Likewise, as our understanding of gospel doctrine and principles grows, our agency expands. First, we have more choices and can achieve more and receive greater blessings because we have more laws that we can obey. Think of a ladder—each new law or commandment we learn is like one more rung on the ladder that enables us to climb higher. Second, with added understanding we can make more intelligent choices because we see more clearly not only the alternatives but also their potential outcomes. As Professor Daniel H. Ludlow once expressed it, “The extent of our individual … agency … is in direct proportion to the number and kind of laws we know and keep.” 4

The Lord promises that if, in the exercise of our agency, we follow His example and always do those things that please Him and the Father, then we will come to know and understand all things:

“And if your eye be single to my glory, your whole bodies shall be filled with light, and there shall be no darkness in you; and that body which is filled with light comprehendeth all things” (D&C 88:67).

“That which is of God is light; and he that receiveth light, and continueth in God, receiveth more light; and that light groweth brighter and brighter until the perfect day” (D&C 50:24).

“He that keepeth [God’s] commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things” (D&C 93:28).

“And the Spirit giveth light to every man that cometh into the world; and the Spirit enlighteneth every man through the world, that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit.

“And every one that hearkeneth to the voice of the Spirit cometh unto God, even the Father” (D&C 84:46–47).

These are magnificent promises: to be filled with light and truth, to comprehend all things, to be glorified in truth and know all things, and to come even unto the Father.

The gift of agency is intended to give us experience. We “taste the bitter, that [we] may know to prize the good” (Moses 6:55). And Jesus, “though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered” (Hebrews 5:8).

Joseph Smith was told to expect some severe opposition despite making good choices. Said the Lord, “Know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good” (D&C 122:7). We are in a mortal experience because we cannot become as God without that experience. We must prove to Him and to ourselves that we can consistently make the right choices and then stick to those choices, come what may.

God is interested in what we are becoming as a result of our choices. He is not satisfied if our exercise of moral agency is simply a robotic effort at keeping some rules. Our Savior wants us to become something, not just do some things. 5 He is endeavoring to make us independently strong—more able to act for ourselves than perhaps those of any prior generation. We must be righteous, even when He withdraws His Spirit, or, as President Brigham Young said, even “in the dark.” 6

Using our agency to choose God’s will, and not slackening even when the going gets hard, will not make us God’s puppet; it will make us like Him. God gave us agency, and Jesus showed us how to use it so that we could eventually learn what They know, do what They do, and become what They are.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2009/06/moral-agency?lang=eng

We know that we had our agency before this world was and that Lucifer attempted to take it from us. He had no confidence in the principle of agency or in us and argued for imposed salvation. He insisted that with his plan none would be lost, but he seemed not to recognize—or perhaps not to care—that in addition, none would be any wiser, any stronger, any more compassionate, or any more grateful if his plan were followed.

We who chose the Savior’s plan knew that we would be embarking on a precarious, difficult journey, for we walk the ways of the world and sin and stumble, cutting us off from our Father. But the Firstborn in the Spirit offered Himself as a sacrifice to atone for the sins of all. Through unspeakable suffering He became the great Redeemer, the Savior of all mankind, thus making possible our successful return to our Father.

The prophet Lehi tells us: “Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.”

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

Agency is essential for individual spiritual growth and development. Evil conduct is an element of agency. Captain Moroni explained this very important doctrine: “The Lord suffereth the righteous to be slain that his justice and judgment may come upon the wicked.” He made it clear that the righteous are not lost but “enter into the rest of the Lord their God.”22 The wicked will be held accountable for the atrocities they perpetrate.23

Some challenges come from disobedience to God’s laws. Health problems resulting from smoking, alcohol, and drug abuse are staggering. Incarceration in jails and prisons as a result of alcohol- and drug-related crime is also very high.24

The incidence of divorce because of infidelity is also significant. Many of these trials and tribulations could be avoided by obedience to God’s laws.25

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... g?lang=eng

I add my voice today to the voices of my Brethren that Lucifer is a clever and cunning intelligence. One of the main methods he uses against us is his ability to lie and deceive to convince us that evil is good and good is evil. Right from the very beginning in the great Council in Heaven, Satan “sought to destroy the agency of man, which I, the Lord God, had given him. …

“And he became Satan, yea, even the devil, the father of all lies, to deceive and to blind men, and to lead them captive at his will” (Moses 4:3–4).

The battle over man’s God-given agency continues today. Satan and his minions have their lures all around us, hoping that we will falter and take his flies so he can reel us in with counterfeit means. He uses addiction to steal away agency. According to the dictionary, addiction of any kind means to surrender to something, thus relinquishing agency and becoming dependent on some life-destroying substance or behavior. 1

Researchers tell us there is a mechanism in our brain called the pleasure center. 2 When activated by certain drugs or behaviors, it overpowers the part of our brain that governs our willpower, judgment, logic, and morality. This leads the addict to abandon what he or she knows is right. And when that happens, the hook is set and Lucifer takes control.

Satan knows how to exploit and ensnare us with artificial substances and behaviors of temporary pleasure.

Some of the most addictive drugs that, if abused, can hijack the brain and take away one’s agency include nicotine; opiates—heroin, morphine, and other painkillers; tranquilizers; cocaine; alcohol; marijuana; and methamphetamines.

I am grateful for doctors who are trained to prescribe proper medications to relieve pain and suffering. Unfortunately, too many in our communities today, including some of our own members, become addicted to and then abuse prescription medications. Lucifer, the father of all lies, knows this and uses his influence to steal away one’s agency and capture the abuser with his awful chains (see 2 Nephi 28:22).

There is also great concern about some of the pernicious, addictive behaviors like gambling and evil pornography that are so personally destructive and so rampant in our society. Remember, brothers and sisters, any kind of addiction is to surrender to something, thus relinquishing agency and becoming dependent. Thus, video-gaming and texting on cell phones need to be added to the list. Some gamers claim to spend up to 18 hours a day going through level after level of video games, neglecting all other aspects of their lives. Texting on cell phones can become an addiction, causing the important interpersonal human communication to become lost. Not long ago a bishop told me two of his youth were standing side by side texting one another rather than talking to each other.

Medical research describes addiction as “a disease of the brain.” 4 This is true, but I believe that once Satan has someone in his grasp, it also becomes a disease of the spirit.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

If we restrict, through law, things (such as alcohol or marijuana) that erode agency are we taking away people's freedom and liberty? What if we allow and promote their use by getting rid of such "oppressive" legal restrictions?

His preparation began in the premortal life as He waited upon His Father, saying, “Thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.”1 Beginning in that moment and continuing today, He exercises His agency to accept and carry out our Heavenly Father’s plan. The scriptures teach us that through His youth, He went “about [His] Father’s business”2 and “waited upon the Lord for the time of his ministry to come.”3 At the age of 30, He suffered sore temptation yet chose to resist, saying, “Get thee behind me, Satan.”4 In Gethsemane, He trusted His Father, declaring, “Nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done,”5 and then He exercised His agency to suffer for our sins. Through the humiliation of a public trial and the agony of crucifixion, He waited upon His Father, willing to be “wounded for our transgressions … [and] bruised for our iniquities.”6 Even as He cried out, “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?”7 He waited upon His Father—exercising His agency to forgive His enemies,8 see that His mother was watched over,9 and endure to the end until His life and mortal mission were finished.10

I have often pondered, Why is it that the Son of God and His holy prophets and all the faithful Saints have trials and tribulations, even when they are trying to do Heavenly Father’s will? Why is it so hard, especially for them?

I think about Joseph Smith, who suffered illness as a boy and persecution throughout his life. Like the Savior, he cried out, “O God, where art thou?”11 Yet even when he was seemingly alone, he exercised his agency to wait upon the Lord and carry out his Heavenly Father’s will.

I think of our pioneer forebears, driven from Nauvoo and crossing the plains, exercising their agency to follow a prophet even as they suffered sickness, privation, and some even death. Why such terrible tribulation? To what end? For what purpose?

As we ask these questions, we realize that the purpose of our life on earth is to grow, develop, and be strengthened through our own experiences. How do we do this? The scriptures give us an answer in one simple phrase: we “wait upon the Lord.”12 Tests and trials are given to all of us. These mortal challenges allow us and our Heavenly Father to see whether we will exercise our agency to follow His Son. He already knows, and we have the opportunity to learn, that no matter how difficult our circumstances, “all these things shall [be for our] experience, and … [our] good.”13

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... e?lang=eng

Moral agency is a gift from our Heavenly Father (see D&C 101:78). It is “the ability and privilege God gives us to choose and ‘to act for [ourselves] and not to be acted upon’ (2 Nephi 2:26).”1 The ultimate use of our agency is the ultimate moral choice: we are “free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil” (2 Nephi 2:27; see also 2 Nephi 10:23). We cannot choose the consequences of our decisions; if we choose the wrong and do not repent, we cannot expect to have “liberty and eternal life.”

http://www.lds.org/ensign/2012/02/why-agency?lang=eng

In years past we generally used the term free agency. That is not incorrect. More recently we have taken note that free agency does not appear in the scriptures. They talk of our being “free to choose” and “free to act” for ourselves (2 Nephi 2:27; 10:23; see also Helaman 14:30) and of our obligation to do many things of our own “free will” (D&C 58:27). But the word agency appears either by itself or with the modifier moral: “That every man may act in doctrine and principle … according to the moral agency which I have given unto him, that every man may be accountable for his own sins in the day of judgment” (D&C 101:78; emphasis added). When we use the term moral agency, we are appropriately emphasizing the accountability that is an essential part of the divine gift of agency. We are moral beings and agents unto ourselves, free to choose but also responsible for our choices.

So many in our society today seem to have slipped from the moorings of safety and drifted from the harbor of peace.

Permissiveness, immorality, pornography, drugs, the power of peer pressure—all these and more—cause many to be tossed about on a sea of sin and crushed on the jagged reefs of lost opportunities, forfeited blessings, and shattered dreams.

Is there a way to safety? Is there an escape from threatened destruction? The answer is a resounding yes! I counsel you to look to the lighthouse of the Lord. I have said it before; I will say it again: there is no fog so dense, no night so dark, no gale so strong, no mariner so lost but what the lighthouse of the Lord can rescue. It beckons through the storms of life. It calls, “This way to safety. This way to home.” It sends forth signals of light easily seen and never failing. If followed, those signals will guide you back to your heavenly home.

I wish to talk with you tonight about three essential signals from the Lord’s lighthouse which will help you to return to that Father who eagerly awaits your triumphant homecoming. Those three signals are believe, obey, and endure.

http://www.lds.org/broadcasts/article/g ... e?lang=eng

God’s choicest blessings are clearly contingent upon obedience to God’s laws and commandments. The key teaching is from modern revelation:

“There is a law, irrevocably decreed in heaven before the foundations of this world, upon which all blessings are predicated—

“And when we obtain any blessing from God, it is by obedience to that law upon which it is predicated” (D&C 130:20–21).

This great principle helps us understand the why of many things, like justice and mercy balanced by the Atonement. It also explains why God will not forestall the exercise of agency by His children. Agency—our power to choose—is fundamental to the gospel plan that brings us to earth. God does not intervene to forestall the consequences of some persons’ choices in order to protect the well-being of other persons—even when they kill, injure, or oppress one another—for this would destroy His plan for our eternal progress. 8 He will bless us to endure the consequences of others’ choices, but He will not prevent those choices. 9

If a person understands the teachings of Jesus, he or she cannot reasonably conclude that our loving Heavenly Father or His divine Son believes that Their love supersedes Their commandments. Consider these examples.

When Jesus began His ministry, His first message was repentance. 10

When He exercised loving mercy by not condemning the woman taken in adultery, He nevertheless told her, “Go, and sin no more” (John 8:11).

Jesus taught, “Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven” (Matthew 7:21).

The effect of God’s commandments and laws is not changed to accommodate popular behavior or desires. If anyone thinks that godly or parental love for an individual grants the loved one license to disobey the law, he or she does not understand either love or law. The Lord declared: “That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still” (D&C 88:35).

We read in modern revelation, “All kingdoms have a law given” (D&C 88:36). For example:

“He who is not able to abide the law of a celestial kingdom cannot abide a celestial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a terrestrial kingdom cannot abide a terrestrial glory.

“And he who cannot abide the law of a telestial kingdom cannot abide a telestial glory” (D&C 88:22–24).

In other words, the kingdom of glory to which the Final Judgment assigns us is not determined by love but by the law that God has invoked in His plan to qualify us for eternal life, “the greatest of all the gifts of God” (D&C 14:7).

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... w?lang=eng

by **kenh** » Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:15 pm

From the DISCOURSE ON ABBATON
By Timothy, Archbishop of Alexandria
The writings in bold and italics are from B H Porter, a BYU professor. (I hope this helps)
This Text was copied by Timothy from the existing document at the library in Jerusalem about 380-385 A.D. The Archbishop seeking information on the origin of Satan and why death and suffering exists in the world, in his words, he was "wishing to learn concerning this fearful and terrifying being who God made, an who pursueth every soul until it yieldeth up it's spirit."
The plan of salvation is presented, and the Savior accepts the responsibility to become the redeemer of the offspring of the Father.

And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be an advocate for him. And My Father said unto Me, "If I put breath into him, My beloved son, Thou wilt be obliged to go down into the world, and to suffer many pains for him before Thou shalt have redeemed him, and made him to come back to primal state."And I said unto My Father, "Put breath into him; I will be his advocate, and I will go down into the world, and will fulfil Thy command."
And whilst He was wishing to put breath into him He took a book, and wrote therein [the names of] those who should come forth from him and who should enter into the kingdom which is in the heavens, according to what is written, “These are they whose names are written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the World."

The names of the righteous are written in the Lambs Book of Life before the foundation of this world.

And He put breath into him in this way; He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life three times, saying, "Live! Live! Live! According to the type of My Divinity." And the man lived straightway, and became a living soul, according to the image and likeness of God. And when Adam had risen up he cast himself down before [My] father, saying, "My Lord and my God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist."

The spirit of Adam (Michael) is placed into the created body now that the plan of salvation was accepted and the redeemer is made known. Adam is excited above stating that he can feel the difference that a body makes saying A My Lord and My God! Thou hast made me to come into being [from a state in which] I did not exist.

Thereupon My Father set him upon a great throne, and he placed on his head a crown of glory, and he put a royal scepter [in his hand],
Adam is given the priesthood, this is the was scepter in Egypt that represents the priesthood, and authority of god to be a prophet, priest, and king.
and My Father made every order [of angels] in the heavens to come and worship him, wether angel or archangel. And all the hosts of heaven worshiped God first of all, and then they worshiped Adam, saying, "Hail, thou image and likeness of God!"

This perhaps, is the true doctrine behind the origin of the Adam God Theory and is more complete once it is understood in the correct context. The Father has all worship Him first, as their God and Father of their spirits, He then has all of heaven (those coming to this earth) worship (bad translation, should be give homage ) to Adam the god and father of their physical bodies. Adam, or Michael, because of his righteousness and valency in the pre-earth life (see Alma 13:3-5) was chosen to become the first physical man on the newly created earth, and to hold all the keys, rights, and powers of the priesthood, under the direction of Christ, and our Father in Heaven. This places Adam as the Ancient of Days, the Grand Patriarch, the Prophet, Priest, and King of all the Father‘s spiritual offspring that will come to this earth. This choice of Michael, a younger but more righteous spirit does not set well with the Son of the Morning, an older spirit child. (Christ is the Firstborn of all our Father’s spiritual offspring. Could Satan be the firstborn of the spirit children that were to come to THIS EARTH, but Adam or Michael was more righteous and received the honor of being the first patriarch, and Ancient of Days for this world? Could Abraham 3:27 be speaking of the one who would be the first patriarch? Michael means is Hebrew,“Who is like unto God.” This would account for the discrepancy between Moses 4, and Abraham 3.) This is a pattern seen throughout biblical history. Cain/Abel, Isaac/Ishmael, Jacob/Esau, Joseph/Reuben, Laman/Nephi, and Adam/Satan. The pattern is there for a reason.

And He intended that the order of the angels who were fashioned [before Adam] should worship him, and My Father said unto him (i.e. their chief, Lucifer), "Come, thou thyself shalt worship my image and likeness." And he, a being of great pride, drew himself up in a shameless manner, and said, "It is meet that this [man Adam] should come and worship me, for I existed before he came into being."

The pride of Satan cannot allow a being younger than himself to rule over him. This same pride turns Cain against Abel, producing murder for gain, secret oaths and combinations, Master Mahan, and the first son of Satan, (perdition). D&C 29:36-37 states: "And it came to pass that Adam, Being tempted of the devil--for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency; and they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels."

And when My Father saw his great pride, and that his wickedness and his evil-doing were complete, (had reached their highest pitch).

The Father gave Satan every chance. Agency would require Satan to know, and understand completely what the consequences would be for the exercise of his agency, or the consequence would not be righteous. Satan chose his path, his pride was complete he would never turn back. He rebelled against God and was cast out.

He commanded all the armies of heaven, saying, "Remove the writing [which is] in the hand of the proud one, strip ye off his armor, and cast ye him down upon the earth, for his time hath come. For he is the greatest of them all, (the rebellious angels) he is the head over them and is like a king, and he commandeth them as the general of an army [commandeth his] soldiers; he is the head over them, and their names are written in his hand."

The writing in his hand@is the priesthood authority that he had been give before his fall to perdition. This is the same writing in Pharaoh’s hand, depicted in the statues in Egypt.

Thus is it with this cunning one, and the [names of the] angels were written in his hand. And all the angels gathered together to him, and they did not wish to remove the writing from his hand. And my Father commanded them to bring a sharp reaping-knife, and to stab him therewith on this side and that, right through his body to the vertebrae of his shoulders, and he was unable to hold himself up. And straightway My Father commanded a mighty Cherubim, and he smote him, and cast him down from heaven upon the earth, because of his pride, and he broke his wings and his ribs and made helpless, and those whom he had brought with him became devils with him.

The reaping-knife is the ancient sign of Satan, as his middle finger is arched in the shape of the reaping-knife. This knife is used to preform the oath which he had taken in the pre-earth existence. He was stabbed from his shoulder, and cut to the vertebrae, across the body to his other shoulder. This completes the loss of his powers and priesthoods, as he had altogether turned therefrom, his oath and covenant of the priesthood which he had made with the Father. The braking of his wings symbolize that his power to move about was taken, he was on the earth to stay. This lone and dreary world became his kingdom, and he became, in name only, the god of this world.

by **John5** » Wed Jun 27, 2012 10:44 am

Col. Flagg wrote:I asked this question yesterday in gospel principles class because it has never made any sense to me why Satan would choose the path he did knowing it would eventually lead to his ultimate demise and destruction, misery, torment and eventually, being cast out to outer darkness to suffer a spiritual death. Surprisingly, a few class members responded that he may not have known what the consequences would be for his rebellion and that his lust for power, glory and control blinded his ability to make a rational decision. It just seems to me that he had to know what the end was going to be for him by choosing to rebel, fall and take 1/3 of the Lord's spirit children with him, so why would any spirit willingly choose that end? Any ideas/thoughts on this?

It appears to me Satan is having a windfall. His following is enormous.

LDS Freedom Forum

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