Sunday School: Book of Mormon Lesson Manual?

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

We had a not-so-good lesson today. I thought it was the teacher.
Then I came home and read the manual.
OUCH.

How was everyone else's lesson? Did the teacher stick strictly to the manual? If not, what else was included?

Much of each lesson seems to be YM/YW level; what would you suggest as to how these lessons be made more interesting, and especially better?

For me, I'd like maybe 50% interesting discussion, 50% basics we need to be reminded to live, principles, etc.

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

I'm a Sunday School teacher and I follow the manual to teach my kids. To make them interested and keep the students engaged, I share personal experiences that relate to the scriptures or events in the lesson and ask the class to share any stories. When people can RELATE to what's being taught, it reinforces the importance of the message being presented.

[livy111uscaptain of 100]

There are a few good resources that dig a little deeper into the lesson material.

http://en.fairmormon.org/FAIR_Study_Aids/Book_of_Mormon

https://mormonscriptureexplorations.wordpress.com/
http://www.youtube.com/user/HamblinOfJe ... ustangbase

http://joelsmonastery.blogspot.com/

I can't speak for the other links, but FAIR's supplemental information from the first link received a nice letter from the Church saying in part "I hope more members, including gospel doctrine teachers, will find this info and use it appropriately in their lessons."

[coachmarcMy own worst enemy]

Thank you for sharing, livy111us! I'll look into this as part of my curriculum. I find it very important to stick with the lesson and not drift from the heart of the topics. These lessons come approved by, and if I remember correctly from a church meeting years ago, are also correlated by our general authorities.

[livy111uscaptain of 100]

Dr. Daniel Peterson gave this humorous insight on correlation a while back:

"Years ago, I was teaching Gospel Doctrine in my home ward while I was also serving on the Church's Gospel Doctrine writing committee. At the end of one of my lessons, the stake Sunday school president came up and rebuked me for having ignored the manual. (I checked to see what chapters I needed to cover, but that was it.) Did I not know that these manuals were given by revelation? I tried to let him down gently by telling him that, in fact, I served on the committee that wrote them, and that, although we prayed seriously about what we did, they were certainly not revealed, and that, in fact, I hated the format and could not possibly teach using such manuals."

In coming across the story of Paul preaching until midnight in the New Testament, and poor Eutychus falling asleep in the rafters, falling down dead, until Paul can restore him to life; Doctor Peterson decided to place in his comments a few funny questions. Basically he asked, “have you ever killed anyone with a talk you gave in Sacrament?” “If so, how did it make you feel?”
The questions actually went all the way through correlation, and he voluntarily pulled them out before publication.

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

coachmarc,
I like the teens manuals better than the adults.
I don't like the newer seminary manuals compared to the old fill-in-the-blank ones.
I like some of the adults manuals more than the others.
It would be nice to see the lessons made more relevant.

livy111us,
That's hilarious! I wrote curriculum once with some input. I got a nasty email back about "where did you get that, the apostles say we can do that". I emailed back with a quote or two from the apostles that said the opposite. They wrote back an apology. Not that they changed the curriculum, of course...
They tell you to teach using only the manual and approved church material or such... That makes many teachers hesitant to use anything outside. Maybe as coachmarc said, more time in stories of application might be helpful.


My parents had the same GD teacher for 15 years. He taught the BoM four times, and each time it seemed to be the exact same lesson, with the exact same comments. Unfortunately, some of the class member comments were the same every time, too. Very unfortunately, any new or interesting comments were ignored for discussion.

Not-so-good manual + not-so-good teacher + not-so-prepared students = ??.
Yeah, not-so-good lesson.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

A quote from the manual itself:

Using This Manual

This manual is a tool to help you teach the doctrines of the gospel from the scriptures. It has been written for youth and adult Gospel Doctrine classes and is to be used every four years. Additional references and commentaries should not be necessary to teach the lessons. Elder M. Russell Ballard said: “Teachers would be well advised to study carefully the scriptures and their manuals before reaching out for supplemental materials. Far too many teachers seem to stray from the approved curriculum materials without fully reviewing them. If teachers feel a need to use some good supplemental resources beyond the scriptures and manuals in presenting a lesson, they should first consider the use of the Church magazines” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1983, 93; or Ensign, May 1983, 68).

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideNav=1&locale=0&sourceId=5a80cb7a29c20110VgnVCM100000176f620a____&vgnextoid=198bf4b13819d110VgnVCM1000003a94610aRCRD

[Waldencaptain of 100]

Much of each lesson seems to be YM/YW level; what would you suggest as to how these lessons be made more interesting, and especially better?

Ouch, Poor YM/YW. They can handle everything we can handle, Joseph was 14 when he had the first vision, Nephi was "exceedingly young", Enoch was "but a lad", I could go on and on. I honestly think the youth are the best of us, they are less propagandized then we are, they hate it when people feed them lies, and they know when they are being fed lies. Why do you think we have so many falling away? Maybe if we gave them meat instead of constant "watered down milk" from primary to the day they die we would have less people falling away.

And to make it better I suggest no manual, I don't think their list of "72 approved topics" is going to lead us to the celestial kingdom. Only Christ can do that. I honestly don't have a very good opinion of ANY manual, they are like the forward of a book, useless and wasteful of time.

Oh, and yes my Sunday school today was so boring as well. Anybody else want to add to the "complaint department"

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

I 'team teach' GD with the bishop's wife every other Sunday. I taught GD to 14-16 year-olds for several years from the late 90's through early 2000's. The manual is exactly the same for adults & teens and are the same now.. I have the old ones in my library. Seminary manuals have a lot more 'meat', but I don't have access to those.

I seem to have one of the bishopric 'running herd' on me because every time I teach he points out one thing or another that 'might be misunderstood'. The fact that I mentioned that the 'great & abominable church' identified in scriptures is NOT now identified as the Catholic Church as it once was in SS class targeted me for possibly causing members to lose their faith since many of them were taught that previously.

So...do we perpetuate incorrect doctrine so people can retain their faith in something they were 'taught' by uninspired teachers or members of the General Authorities who went doctrinally renegade & published books prior to the First Presidency's approval?

What I want to know is, WHY can't these 'students' READ their assigned lessons and come prepared to DISCUSS what they found to be of value?

I teach directly from the scriptures. I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'. Several people did make the effort to tell me that they like the way I teach. I am praying that 'the way I teach' is how the Holy Ghost 'teaches through me'.

If I'm chided for teaching directly from the scriptures, then I guess we definitely have a problem in the Church curriculum.

[Waldencaptain of 100]

I 'team teach' GD with the bishop's wife every other Sunday. I taught GD to 14-16 year-olds for several years from the late 90's through early 2000's. The manual is exactly the same for adults & teens and are the same now.. I have the old ones in my library. Seminary manuals have a lot more 'meat', but I don't have access to those.

I seem to have one of the bishopric 'running herd' on me because every time I teach he points out one thing or another that 'might be misunderstood'. The fact that I mentioned that the 'great & abominable church' identified in scriptures is NOT now identified as the Catholic Church as it once was in SS class targeted me for possibly causing members to lose their faith since many of them were taught that previously.

So...do we perpetuate incorrect doctrine so people can retain their faith in something they were 'taught' by uninspired teachers or members of the General Authorities who went doctrinally renegade & published books prior to the First Presidency's approval?

What I want to know is, WHY can't these 'students' READ their assigned lessons and come prepared to DISCUSS what they found to be of value?

I teach directly from the scriptures. I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'. Several people did make the effort to tell me that they like the way I teach. I am praying that 'the way I teach' is how the Holy Ghost 'teaches through me'.

If I'm chided for teaching directly from the scriptures, then I guess we definitely have a problem in the Church curriculum.

Good for you! scripture is the way to go. Manuals have no purpose other then the purpose for which manuals where made (read some john Taylor gatto if you don't understand). Christ taught from the scriptures in the temple. When the devil showed up to tempt him he didn't say "go to h*** (pun intended) I'm Jesus christ you cant tempt me" he said "the scriptures say this" as he was our perfect example he proved that NOBODY is above the scriptures.

Again kudos for teaching from the scriptures, and if you take flak for doing that then I guess something is seriously wrong.

And yes there is some incorrect docterine that has been perpetuated so people can keep there faith. I believe it is wrong because when people find out later they where decieved they lose faith in the church whereas if the church taught everything warts and all they would have no excuse. And they would not have a grudge against the church for lying to them.

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

I seem to have one of the bishopric 'running herd' on me because every time I teach he points out one thing or another that 'might be misunderstood'. The fact that I mentioned that the 'great & abominable church' identified in scriptures is NOT now identified as the Catholic Church as it once was in SS class targeted me for possibly causing members to lose their faith since many of them were taught that previously.
So...do we perpetuate incorrect doctrine so people can retain their faith in something they were 'taught' by uninspired teachers or members of the General Authorities who went doctrinally renegade & published books prior to the First Presidency's approval?
What I want to know is, WHY can't these 'students' READ their assigned lessons and come prepared to DISCUSS what they found to be of value?
I teach directly from the scriptures. I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'. Several people did make the effort to tell me that they like the way I teach. I am praying that 'the way I teach' is how the Holy Ghost 'teaches through me'.

The subject is the Book of Mormon, NOT the Book of Mormon MANUAL.

Teaching from the scriptures is great! I usually like that better. Especially when a teacher here does open his Catholic commentary and quote from that more than the lesson manual...

Gosh, there are so many things that "might be misunderstood"--that's why we teach and learn! That's a good point to bring up (but you're already on that lesson?!?).

In the last general conference there was a talk about teaching by the Holy Ghost. Maybe the counselor could get a copy?

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

but you're already on that lesson?!?

I was asked to teach the two Book of Revelations lessons at the end of the New Testament GD class.

Revelation 17:2 references in the foot notes to 1Nephi 14:9-13 when Nephi has his vision regarding the 'great & abominable'. He says in verse 10, "there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations..."

As I pointed out to the class...the Catholic Church had not yet been formed when John wrote the Apocalypse, but that the church of the devil had existed since the beginning of mortal time. I suggested that 'perhaps it had actually begun with Cain' as an organized opposition to the church of the Lamb.

My comment about the church of the devil existing since the beginning of mortal time seems to have been less controversial than my suggestion that perhaps the Catholic Church was not specifically the 'one and only' 'great & abominable' (as taught ages ago in our Sunday School classes and even at Brigham Young University religion classes. I did NOT say where that notion was taught - only that I had 'heard' it taught many years ago. MANY older members nodded their heads - so I am not the only person who somehow had that notion passed along in religion classes.)

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Dr. Daniel Peterson gave this humorous insight on correlation a while back:

"Years ago, I was teaching Gospel Doctrine in my home ward while I was also serving on the Church's Gospel Doctrine writing committee. At the end of one of my lessons, the stake Sunday school president came up and rebuked me for having ignored the manual. (I checked to see what chapters I needed to cover, but that was it.) Did I not know that these manuals were given by revelation? I tried to let him down gently by telling him that, in fact, I served on the committee that wrote them, and that, although we prayed seriously about what we did, they were certainly not revealed, and that, in fact, I hated the format and could not possibly teach using such manuals."

In coming across the story of Paul preaching until midnight in the New Testament, and poor Eutychus falling asleep in the rafters, falling down dead, until Paul can restore him to life; Doctor Peterson decided to place in his comments a few funny questions. Basically he asked, “have you ever killed anyone with a talk you gave in Sacrament?” “If so, how did it make you feel?”
The questions actually went all the way through correlation, and he voluntarily pulled them out before publication.

Oh my gosh! Is that funny. I sincerely hope it is absolutely true.

The bishop's wife of our previous Ward in Oregon was asked what the Millennium would be like by one of her really quirky and talented children - children I loved to have around me. Apparently, the children did not get their mother's upstanding intermountain west genes - either that or Oregon corrupted the poor souls. Her answer:

"The Millennium will be exactly as 1,000 years of Sacrament Meeting."

I am not kidding; I asked her after one of her boys told me how she had answered. Yep, that's it! A thousand years of Sacrament Meeting. If I fall off my roost, please, please do NOT restore me to life!

[Waldencaptain of 100]

The bishop's wife of our previous Ward in Oregon was asked what the Millennium would be like by one of her really quirky and talented children - children I loved to have around me. Apparently, the children did not get their mother's upstanding intermountain west genes - either that or Oregon corrupted the poor souls. Her answer:

"The Millennium will be exactly as 1,000 years of Sacrament Meeting."

I am not kidding; I asked her after one of her boys told me how she had answered. Yep, that's it! A thousand years of Sacrament Meeting. If I fall off my roost, please, please do NOT restore me to life!

Hahaha, if that's the case then I'll settle for inferno!

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Could someone explain this scripture in light of our discussion about sticking exclusively to the lesson manual text?

The Book of Moroni 6
9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.

If the young missionaries are being encouraged to teach investigators 'by the Spirit', why are we teaching 'seasoned' members of the Church 'by rote'?

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

Because the Prophet and other church leadership in their wisdom and authority have asked us to teach a specific way. I don't think their way does anything at all to block the spirit. Actually I think teaching by the spirit is the biggest problem we have in church and leads to all kinds of false doctrine taught in church. How many people in your ward do you trust to teach by the spirit? Read the quote in the emotionalism thread about how so many are deceived by the wrong spirit and think they are being led by the spirit to do this or that...

Yes teach by the spirit, but teach the "manual" by the spirit. In reality all the manual is is quotes of the brethren and scriptures with questions to facilitate discussion. It's not it's own book of scripture, not separate or different doctrine.

Trust the brethren.

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

I trust the Brethren.

If after prayer and study I am impressed to base my lesson on a specific scripture which is not highlighted in the lesson manual - WHAT should I do?

Once in awhile, I have also felt impressed during the class period to go in a direction I had not planned.

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

"I think teaching by the spirit is the biggest problem we have in church and leads to all kinds of false doctrine taught in church."

Wow!
Wouldn't it be easier to say that those who teach false doctrine are NOT teaching by the Spirit?

Teaching by the Spirit should not be equated to teach whatever you want. But, if the Spirit prompts you to do/teach something, you should to it.

The manuals are great for isolating a few principles to discuss. I use them as an outline for my own lesson. I fill the outline with whatever the Spirit directs. Sometimes that's more material from the manual, sometimes it's not. And sometimes I feel directed to change my outline.

In our ward we are even rearranging the lesson schedule. (We have prayed and fasted about it.) We are teaching lessons 4, 9, and 10 in a row. We are using Snuffer's "Nephi's Isaiah" as a model for our Isaiah lesson. To adequately understand lesson 9(the Isaiah chapters) they must be prefaced with Nephi's vision (lesson 4) and Nephi's conclusion in lesson 10.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

If after prayer and study I am impressed to base my lesson on a specific scripture which is not highlighted in the lesson manual - WHAT should I do?

Do what the manual suggests, if you don't know what it suggests I suggest reading the instructions to teachers.

Teaching by the Spirit isn't the problem, teaching by the "spirit" is.

Why is it so hard to trust the Brethren on this matter? The instructions at the front of the manual are pretty straightforward and don't cut off the Spirit in any way shape or form. (Ditching the inspired by that Spirit and endorsed as such manual does).

[ATL Wakecaptain of 1,000]

25 Wo be unto him that crieth: All is well! (We have a manual)

26 Yea, wo be unto him that hearkeneth unto the precepts of men, (a manual) and denieth the power of God, and the gift of the Holy Ghost!

27 Yea, wo be unto him that saith: We have received, (a manual) and we need no more!

28 And in fine, wo unto all those who tremble, and are angry because of the truth of God! For behold, he that is built upon the rock (revelation) receiveth it with gladness; and he that is built upon a sandy foundation trembleth lest he shall fall.

29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, (a manual) and we need no more of the word of God, (revelation) for we have enough!

30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

31 Cursed is he that putteth his trust in man, (a manual) or maketh flesh his arm, or shall hearken unto the precepts of men, save their precepts shall be given by the power of the Holy Ghost.

32 Wo be unto the Gentiles, (the LDS church) saith the Lord God of Hosts! For notwithstanding I shall lengthen out mine arm unto them from day to day, they will deny me; nevertheless, I will be merciful unto them, saith the Lord God, if they will repent and come unto me; for mine arm is lengthened out all the day long, saith the Lord God of Hosts.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Why is it so hard to trust the Brethren on this matter? The instructions at the front of the manual are pretty straightforward and don't cut off the Spirit in any way shape or form. (Ditching the inspired by that Spirit and endorsed as such manual does).

from Helps for the Teacher, Book of Mormon Teacher's Manual

As a Gospel Doctrine teacher, you have the opportunity this year to teach from “the most correct of any book on earth.” Guided by the Spirit, you will be able to help class members understand eternal precepts and strengthen their testimonies of Jesus Christ, His gospel, and the Prophet Joseph Smith’s mission. You will also be able to help them receive other blessings that come from diligent study of the Book of Mormon, some of which were described by President Ezra Taft Benson:

“The Book of Mormon exposes the enemies of Christ. It confounds false doctrines and lays down contention. (See 2 Ne. 3:12.) It fortifies the humble followers of Christ against the evil designs, strategies, and doctrines of the devil in our day. The type of apostates in the Book of Mormon are similar to the type we have today. God, with his infinite foreknowledge, so molded the Book of Mormon that we might see the error and know how to combat false educational, political, religious, and philosophical concepts of our time” (in Conference Report, Apr. 1975, 94–95; or Ensign, May 1975, 64).

As you teach, the Spirit of the Lord will bear witness to you of the power of the Book of Mormon in bringing people to a firm and steadfast knowledge of Jesus Christ and His doctrine.

Teaching by the Spirit

When preparing for Gospel Doctrine class, it is important that you seek inspiration and guidance from the Holy Ghost. “The Spirit shall be given unto you by the prayer of faith,” said the Lord, “and if ye receive not the Spirit ye shall not teach” (D&C 42:14). Remember that the Holy Ghost is to be the teacher in your class.

You can seek the Spirit by praying, fasting, studying the scriptures daily, and obeying the commandments. While preparing for class, pray for the Spirit to help you understand the scriptures and the needs of class members. The Spirit can also help you plan meaningful ways to discuss the scriptures and apply them to the present (see 1 Nephi 19:23). With the guidance of the Spirit, you will become an effective instrument in the hands of the Lord to teach His word to His children.

Focusing on the Scriptures

Elder Boyd K. Packer taught, “True doctrine, understood, changes attitudes and behavior” (in Conference Report, Oct. 1986, 20; or Ensign, Nov. 1986, 17). In your preparation and during class, focus on the saving doctrines of the gospel as presented in the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets. This requires that you study the scriptures diligently and prayerfully. The Lord commanded, “Seek not to declare my word, but first seek to obtain my word, and then shall your tongue be loosed; then, if you desire, you shall have my Spirit and my word, yea, the power of God unto the convincing of men” (D&C 11:21).

The assumption that anyone not 'reading directly from the manual' is teaching false doctrine, being led by 'some other spirit and not 'trusting the Brethren'' has me flummoxed. What an incredible leap!

I'm going to go finish cleaning the chicken coop and ponder upon these things.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

I am in YW. I teach once every few months. I read through the lesson and almost always use the scriptures sighted and just go from there. I think the YW manuals must be the same from when I was in YW. The stories and examples are so far removed from the girls reality today.

I agree that the youth can handle the "meat". They get so distracted and tired of all of the watered down gospel principals. I have taken to talking about what it means to know Jesus Christ, baptism by fire and the holy ghost, etc. At first I was a little nervous to branch out there, but the girls response to these discussions has be so positive, that I don't hesitate to talk about any thing now. And I'm amazed at some of the questions they ask.

I firmly believe that the gospel of Jesus Christ when properly understood, will blow the "competition" of the world away. It is thriling to understand what is being offered to us through this gospel. I have been amazed over and over at how eager my own teenagers as well as the YW are to talk about and try to understand exactly what the Lord is offering each of us. I get excited even typing this now. It is amazing! We should never be bored when discusing the gospel, if done right it should captivate our attention and draw us out of the world, because it becomes clear that the world has nothing to offer in comparison.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

The assumption that anyone not 'reading directly from the manual' is teaching false doctrine, being led by 'some other spirit and not 'trusting the Brethren'' has me flummoxed. What an incredible leap!

See this is junk because I never even inferred that you shouldn't teach by the spirit nor that you should strictly read the manual. Somebody please find where anyone stated that course was best (without editing out context)?

Now you're changing the argument from "I don't need the book because I teach by the spirit" to "I don't need the spirit because I teach by the book." I firmly assert both are required to teach properly and neither can be abandoned.

I never said you should ditch the Spirit, rather sticking to the book with the spirit in the manner proscribed is the best course of action and produces the best results.

I teach directly from the scriptures. I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'. Several people did make the effort to tell me that they like the way I teach. I am praying that 'the way I teach' is how the Holy Ghost 'teaches through me'.

If I'm chided for teaching directly from the scriptures, then I guess we definitely have a problem in the Church curriculum.

But you did infer if not outright say that you could/should ditch the manual completely and "teach by the spirit." The brethren have clearly not advised that course of action in any way shape or form, and I shudder to think what church becomes when such a course is followed (even though I have all too often witnessed what it becomes). To state that using the manual instead of just the scriptures means that we have a problem is to say, prophet's? Why bother! We have the scriptures and the Spirit! it's not an either or question, we need all three, The Spirit, The scriptures, and the Prophets (which is who gave you the manual they put together for you to use for that purpose)).

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

"I don't need the book because I teach by the spirit"

Without having been there, you make an unsubstantiated assumption about what happened Sunday.

I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'.

In addition to the fact that we had less than 35 minutes to conduct an entire Gospel Doctrine lesson, I was asked to have two individuals from the class tell a 1-minute personal story and bear testimony of the impact of the Book of Mormon in their lives.

I felt impressed to call upon an older man of 80-some years I see in the temple. As long as he has been in this Ward (at least 10 years) I have never heard him called upon to speak in Sacrament Meeting. His health is frail, but I have observed in the temple how exacting he is in his assigned duties as a worker. He loves the temple!

Anyway, we had less than 35 minutes to go through Lesson 2 from the manual. I had chosen several spiritual concepts I know are recurrent throughout the entire Book of Mormon and then chosen specific scriptures, printed them upon individual slips to be distributed to class members which could be illustrative of those concepts found in the first 7 chapters of 1Nephi - according to the mandated reading for Lesson 2.

Usually Brother T's voice and energy are extremely low and shaky. When called upon at the beginning of class - after an opening prayer - Brother T came forward leaning heavily on his cane. He proceeded to share the most touching, wonderful, and sometimes amusingly told story about his own conversion to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints when he was a young husband & father looking for the right Lutheran Church in which to baptize his newborn son in a town he had just found work in.

I have never heard the class so quiet. He told how he loved to invite the Mormon missionaries in just to give them a hard time. He shared how he avoided their 'challenge' for him to read the Book of Mormon. He related his disillusionment with the treasurer of the Lutheran Church who had offered to falsify Brother T's tax records by affirming he had donated more than he actually had to the church. He said the spirit whispered to him, "You can find your own way to hell; you don't need a church to lead you there."

It was after his disillusionment with that Lutheran Church when he began to listen more sincerely to the missionary message. He told of his 'secret prayer' after having finally read the scriptures marked for him. He was certain nothing would come of it when he knelt in prayer while he was baby sitting his infant son. Well, obviously he did get the answer promised to him.

At times, Brother T's entire body shook from the power of the Spirit. I was sitting in the front row of the chapel so wasn't able to see anyone else, but I did hear a few sobs in the rows directly behind me. Tears coursed down Brother T's cheeks during his entire testimony. Well, I think when he finished up we had maybe 20 minutes and another Book of Mormon testimony to hear from a young man before we could get to my renegade lesson.

My husband handed out all of my scripture slips before class, and I had written my 'spiritual concepts' on the board in advance, but even then we only got to read and discuss maybe 8 of the 40-some scriptures I had hoped to.

I did NOT open the manual. I did NOT ask any of the questions suggested in the manual. I had hoped that by helping the class realize that certain 'themes' track throughout the Book of Mormon they would choose something that was intriguing for each personally either from the list I suggested or one which they felt impressed to use as a means of focusing their personal study and reading throughout the year. The members of our ward DO NOT read the assigned readings. They DO NOT come prepared to ask questions or participate in discussions. Getting them to read their assigned lesson is my NUMBER ONE priority right now.

Honestly, SwissMiss & Pitchfire (whichever or both), I guess I imagined you behaving more charitably to those with whom you disagree. I really don't care if you express your concerns, but I'm not sure why it had to take the form of a personal attack - especially without knowing the whole story.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

It's not a personal attack, nor based upon your one Sunday lesson. It's based upon what you stated in general. All we have said and caught flack for saying is that we are supposed to use the manual (after a few here were basically throwing it out the window especially Walden). We weren't assuming anything about your teaching, only going off what was stated here:

I teach directly from the scriptures. I did that yesterday. I didn't open the manual. Unfortunately, our class time was shortened due to a long Testimony Meeting - which was fine; the testimonies were 'inspired'. Several people did make the effort to tell me that they like the way I teach. I am praying that 'the way I teach' is how the Holy Ghost 'teaches through me'.

If I'm chided for teaching directly from the scriptures, then I guess we definitely have a problem in the Church curriculum.

Could someone explain this scripture in light of our discussion about sticking exclusively to the lesson manual text?

The Book of Moroni 6
9 And their meetings were conducted by the church after the manner of the workings of the Spirit, and by the power of the Holy Ghost; for as the power of the Holy Ghost led them whether to preach, or to exhort, or to pray, or to supplicate, or to sing, even so it was done.


If the young missionaries are being encouraged to teach investigators 'by the Spirit', why are we teaching 'seasoned' members of the Church 'by rote'?

Are you really saying that is not what you meant? Are you saying that you meant that we should teach the scriptures using the manual under the direction of the spirit? Or can you admit if you were saying something else?

I'm sorry that you feel judged for being held to your words here and no more, but it's not a judgmental attack at all. Just making a point.

I think it is clear that we are supposed to use the manual and the scriptures and teach from them by the Spirit. Do you agree that that is the case or not? Your comments above would lead anyone to believe otherwise. Not a personal judgement, just the nature of the debate.

If I'm wrong and took all of your comments out of context then I am sorry, but if I'm right and that is what you meant are you truly sorry that you mislead us and cried "poor me" for being held accountable for your position?

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Are you really saying that is not what you meant? Are you saying that you meant that we should teach the scriptures using the manual under the direction of the spirit? Or can you admit if you were saying something else?
I'm sorry that you feel judged for being held to your words here and no more, but it's not a judgmental attack at all. Just making a point.

I think it is clear that we are supposed to use the manual and the scriptures and teach from them by the Spirit. Do you agree that that is the case or not? Your comments above would lead anyone to believe otherwise. Not a personal judgement, just the nature of the debate.

"The rich can only get them (keys, signs, words, etc...) in the temple, the poor may get them on the mountaintop as did Moses." Joseph Smith HC 4:608

You are free to draw whatever conclusion you wish.

"The evil of being puffed up with correct (though useless) knowledge is not so great as the evil of contention. Knowledge does away with darkness, suspense and doubt; for these cannot exist where knowledge is.

"I did not like the old man being called up for erring in doctrine. It looks too much like the Methodist, and not like the Latter-day Saints. Methodists have creeds which a man must believe or be asked out of their church. I want the liberty of thinking and believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled." Joseph Smith Jr. April 8, 1843

[TruthoverTraditionHi, I'm new.]

Letter of the Law or Spirit of the Law? Do we teach like the Pharisees or the Sadducee with pristine exactness or do we teach in the Spirit of Christ who did away with the law of Moses?
Myself, I love to teach with the scriptures as they come alive with meaning and are not used enough for teaching.
Thanks for the following insightful and humorous posting! I'm saving it for future use!

Dr. Daniel Peterson gave this humorous insight on correlation a while back:

"Years ago, I was teaching Gospel Doctrine in my home ward while I was also serving on the Church's Gospel Doctrine writing committee. At the end of one of my lessons, the stake Sunday school president came up and rebuked me for having ignored the manual. (I checked to see what chapters I needed to cover, but that was it.) Did I not know that these manuals were given by revelation? I tried to let him down gently by telling him that, in fact, I served on the committee that wrote them, and that, although we prayed seriously about what we did, they were certainly not revealed, and that, in fact, I hated the format and could not possibly teach using such manuals."

In coming across the story of Paul preaching until midnight in the New Testament, and poor Eutychus falling asleep in the rafters, falling down dead, until Paul can restore him to life; Doctor Peterson decided to place in his comments a few funny questions. Basically he asked, “have you ever killed anyone with a talk you gave in Sacrament?” “If so, how did it make you feel?”
The questions actually went all the way through correlation, and he voluntarily pulled them out before publication

[TruthoverTraditionHi, I'm new.]

Buffalo Girl,
I am so appreciative of your spreading the Gospel of Christ using the scriptures and personal experiences of yourself and others (in line with the manual) which brought the Spirit into your classroom! Yahoo! This is the spiritual path to teach from the scriptures which have been revealed by the Spirit and doing exactly as Joseph Smith taught in accordance with Jesus Christ.
If more followed the spiritual route going by the Spirit of the Law versus the letter of the law (which is death), knowing that the correlation committee produced the manuals for a orthodoxy, we would not be so bored in our meetings. I believe orthodoxy destroys spirituality and learning, don't you?
I know that when I feast upon the words of Christ new meaning springs into my mind and heart and I am excited to be Christ's disciple. We've been warned to never "trust in the arm of flesh" so it is good to keep grounded in the scriptures especially the Book of Mormon.

[ChelCThe Law]

I think it's clear that we need a combination. There have been times when I've taken the subject matter from our "manual" (in primary it's more of an outline for sharing time) and completely ignored the suggested activities because I knew they wouldn't work in our ward. Other times I follow it to a T. Usually I use their ideas and customize and supplement them.

I think it's important not to get off topic with tangents, but I think it's equally important to be flexible enough to allow the Spirit to work. When I have more planned in Primary, and I feel like we have to stay on task, we tend to be less likely to have the Spirit there. In contrast, when things are more laid back and we can slow down, the Spirit often takes advantage of those moments.

When I was in RS I was taught that lessons were not supposed to use anything but the manual and the standard works. We were also taught that our job was to facilitate and lead a discussion and if need be allow awkward silences to prevail when participation is lacking. That was sometimes very hard to do! I feel for you, BG, if the participants come unprepared!