Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Discuss principles, issues and candidates for the 2011/2012 elections.

Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby patriotsaint » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:26 am

Oldemandalton wrote:We are stuck with the ugly reality that has been planned for us by the LDGs. Why do you think we aren’t oil dependent ourselves after the oil embargo of the 1970s? This has been a set up for decades. Now we have two bad decisions, the Ron Paul naïve one, leave Iran alone and they will play nice (like expecting a tiger to change his stripes) and have them use it against a city in Israel/USA or try and stop Iranian building nuclear weapons which could set off a ME war or WW III. I like neither choice! But that is the hand dealt to us by the LDGs. They want war and will get it either way.


It may be true that there will be war either way, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for conducting any warfare in which we engage in a manner acceptable to our Father in Heaven. It seems clear we have two options at this point:

1. Preemptively strike Iran or support Israel in doing so, thus becoming the aggressor and forfeiting the support of heaven
2. Defend ourselves if attacked, but avoid becoming the aggressor, thus complying with the divine laws that will allow us heavenly aid in time of need
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:56 am

Oldemandalton wrote:
Infowarrior;
REALLY!? Wow. I would love for you to point by point debunk the "myths"... or LIES I posted, then.


Calm down dude. :) The award you get is the “Most Myths in One Post Award”. (Its a joke BTW, don't get all out of joint) :D

I don’t think YOU lie, Infowarrior, but the Iranian lobbyists from the American Foreign Policy Project are the ones lying. You just happen to swallow their lies and perpetuate the myths that Ron Paul and his followers believe. If you had read my two posts following the Iranian Lobbyists’ article you posted, “Nuclear Standoff”, you will understand the abundance of myths found there.

So calm down, take a breath and relax, OK. :)



Fair enough, but I would still like you to point by point debunk my posts.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 9:58 am

patriotsaint wrote:
Oldemandalton wrote:We are stuck with the ugly reality that has been planned for us by the LDGs. Why do you think we aren’t oil dependent ourselves after the oil embargo of the 1970s? This has been a set up for decades. Now we have two bad decisions, the Ron Paul naïve one, leave Iran alone and they will play nice (like expecting a tiger to change his stripes) and have them use it against a city in Israel/USA or try and stop Iranian building nuclear weapons which could set off a ME war or WW III. I like neither choice! But that is the hand dealt to us by the LDGs. They want war and will get it either way.


It may be true that there will be war either way, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for conducting any warfare in which we engage in a manner acceptable to our Father in Heaven. It seems clear we have two options at this point:

1. Preemptively strike Iran or support Israel in doing so, thus becoming the aggressor and forfeiting the support of heaven
2. Defend ourselves if attacked, but avoid becoming the aggressor, thus complying with the divine laws that will allow us heavenly aid in time of need



So true. All the reason to vote for Ron Paul.

Like I keep saying (and I would like for OMD to comment)

InfoWarrior82 wrote:So, what makes Ron Paul stand out among all other Republican candidates with regards to Iran?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone else supports the idea of pre-emptively striking Iran. So, if you personally DO NOT want to pre-emptively strike Iran, why would you vote for anyone who does?

If any of the front runners DO NOT support a pre-emptive strike on Iran, then doesn't it really all come down to just "talkin' tough" on Iran? Do you just want someone who "talks tough"?
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Chip » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:40 am

(deleted an errant repost)
Last edited by Chip on Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:14 pm

Patriotsaint
It may be true that there will be war either way, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for conducting any warfare in which we engage in a manner acceptable to our Father in Heaven. It seems clear we have two options at this point:

1. Preemptively strike Iran or support Israel in doing so, thus becoming the aggressor and forfeiting the support of heaven
2. Defend ourselves if attacked, but avoid becoming the aggressor, thus complying with the divine laws that will allow us heavenly aid in time of need


Me, as an American could go with either option. It is the Israelis who are in the cross hairs of Iran who could not survive as a nation from a first strike of nuclear weapons by Iran. Israel could retaliate but will be done as a nation. Neither Ezekiel nor any other scriptural prophesy mentions a nuclear strike by an enemy of Israel. They do seem to refer to Israel using tactical nukes against armies attacking Israel (probable during the War of Armageddon). If Iran is allowed to get nuclear weapons, they being a member of Gog’s alliance, would use them without a doubt. So since there is no mention of it in prophesies then we have to conclude they have none at that time. Why? We know Iran is working on it. Do they back off at the last minute to get the sanctions lifted? I hope so. Best possible solution. Does Israel have ant-missile technology in time to defend themselves against Iranian missile strikes? Another posible solution. Does Israel and/or America take out their nuclear weapon site to stop them? Does the Stuxnet virus or other black ops keep Iran nuclear weapon free until Armageddon?

We don’t know but I believe that God will have a hand in the result. God promised that Judah would return in these the last days to the Holy Land. The nation of Israel will survive until the end of the 3 ½ year war mentioned in Ezekiel when the savior appears to them on the Mount of Olives. How they survive the next few years I have no idea, just that God will have a hand in it.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:24 pm

This is a re-post where I answered the Iranian lobyist's propaganda, Infowarrior.

Moonwhim:
Nuclear Standoff
by American Foreign Policy Project =))

Iranian Lobyists! See RISE OF THE IRAN LOBBY
http://bonfiresblog.wordpress.com/tag/american-foreign-policy-project/
.


Claim: Iran is messianic, undeterrable and will bring about a nuclear holocaust if it ever gets nuclear weapons.
Response:
No one outside Iran wants to see Iran armed with a nuclear weapon, but this apocalyptic scenario is based on no behavioral evidence whatsoever. The recent history of Iran makes crystal clear that national self-preservation and regional influence - not some quest for martyrdom in the service of Islam - is Iran's main foreign policy goal. For example:

In the 1990s, Iran chose a closer relationship with Russia over support for rebellious Chechen Muslims.
In order to bypass the West’s sanctions on Nuclear Technology so they could build the ‘bomd’.
Iran actively supported and helped to finance the U.S. invasion of Afghanistan.

That’s because the Taliban and their harsh treatment of Afghanistan's Shi'a minority and then in 1998 they seized the Iranian consulate in Mazari Sharif and executed Iranian diplomats.

Iran is training insurgents across the border and are supplying them with small arms, heavy weapons and IEDs which are then used to kill American soldiers.


Iran has ceased its efforts to export the Islamic revolution to other Persian Gulf states, in favor of developing good relations with the governments of those states. =)) =))

The Qods Force alone provides substantial material support to the Taliban, Shiite militants in Iraq, Lebanese Hizbullah, Hamas in Gaza, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine.

Iran has made it government policy with the backing of the military and paramilitary groups to export the Revolution to “Apostate” Arab States. Iran accused the Sunni Gulf states of being “illegal regimes” that were established through the intervention of “arrogant Western imperialism.”


See:IRAN'S “SECOND” ISLAMIC REVOLUTION
http://www.jcpa.org/text/iran_page_44-61.pdf


During the Iran-Iraq War, Iran took the pragmatic step of developing secret ties and trading arms with Israel, even as Iran and Israel denounced each other in public.

Israel also has an industrial military complex. :(

Israel: Manbar Reveals More Weapons Deals with Iran

The Risk Report

Volume 2 Number 4 (July-August 1996)

In an interview with the Israeli newspaper "Ha'aretz," prominent Israeli businessman Nahum Manbar disclosed recently that from 1988-1992 he sold large quantities of weapons and military equipment to Iran, via his Polish-owned companies. According to Manbar, the weapons, including modern Russian tanks and fire-control systems, were sold with the knowledge of the Israeli Ministry of Defense.

Manbar's confession comes on the heels of an article published in the Risk Report (Vol. 1, Issue 5, June 1995) which detailed Manbar's sale of anti-biological and anti-chemical warfare protective suits to Iran and the resulting imposition of sanctions by the U.S. State Department. U.S. government sources also told the Risk Report that Manbar provided material support to Iran's chemical and biological weapon program.
http://www.wisconsinproject.org/countri ... -iran.html


Claim: Iran has declared its intention to develop nuclear weapons.1
Response: In fact, Iran has consistently denied that it seeks nuclear weapons and its leaders have even declared such weapons to be "against Islam" (an unnecessary and curious thing for mullahs to say about a weapon they plan someday to unveil). Iran may or may not be seeking nuclear weapons in fact, but it is patently false to claim that they have declared an intention to do so.
Footnotes
1. This argument is heard almost exclusively from neo-con ideologues such as Liz Cheney who have shown little regard to the facts over the years: "I think that the only responsible position as a nation that we can take is, they actually want what they say they want, which is they want a nuclear weapon." CSIS, "Assessing U.S. Policy Towards Iran," Remarks by Elizabeth Cheney, June 26, 2008. [back]

As illustrated in my above post no serious expert, unless in he is on the Iranian payroll like American Foreign Policy Project, Press TV, RT, or naïve like Ron Paul, belives that Iran is not working on nuclear weapons. Why go to the expense of refining nuclear fuel over the required 5%? BECAUSE they want nuclear weapons!

Claim:
Iran is developing a ballistic missile capability, which makes no sense unless Iran plans to mount nuclear warheads on them.
Response:
Even though they are currently inaccurate, ballistic missiles are valued in Iran both as war-fighting tools and deterrents to attack even when armed with purely conventional warheads. The U.S. intelligence community judges that Iran is currently focusing on further developing ballistic missiles which can target other countries in the region, rather than outside of it. Such missiles make strategic sense for conventional warheads as well as non-conventional ones. As experts at the U.S. Air Force-funded Rand Corporation recently observed: "Based on their experience in the Iran-Iraq War—during which exchanges of ballistic missiles caused modest destruction yet had great impact on civilian morale—Iranian leaders appear convinced that ballistic missiles are the most reliable means for attacking deep targets, and that they would have psychological effects disproportionate to their destructive power."1

Iran Commander: We Have Intercontinental Ballistic Missiles

Reza Khalili

Iran has the technological ability to target any point on the planet with an intercontinental ballistic missile should it choose to, according to Brig. Gen. Seyyed Mehdi Farahi of the Revolutionary Guards Corps, who is the director of the Iranian air and space industries.

A recent editorial in the Iranian Keyhan newspaper, the mouthpiece of Iran's supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, reports on Iran's ballistic missile technology with a headline "Iran Now Exports Ballistic Missiles."

In the report the general brags about Iran's military might and its ability to simultaneously launch 14 or more rockets with extreme precision. He says that the export of ballistic missiles and the progress in Iran's space program are signs that Iran has achieved the highest levels of military and technological excellence.

Despite international sanctions, the general boasts:

"Today, I proudly announce that an Islamic Iran is not only capable of exporting industrial and defense products but also technology and defense technology as well."

Military experts and analysts who cover Iranian military and defense issues have acknowledged that Iran does in fact have the strongest ballistic missile program in the Middle East and that the low costs of the missiles has in fact taken the ballistic missile market out of the West's hands, the editorial says.

The newspaper cites recent testimony before the U.S. Senate Armed Services Committee by the director of the U.S. Defense Intelligence Agency, Lt. Gen. Ronald L. Burgess. "Iran's progress in building ballistic missiles is noticeable, and with the launch of satellites to space it became clear that Iran has succeeded in building intercontinental ballistic missiles," the general testified, according to the paper. The successful launch of the Rasad satellite to space drew the attention of observers and foreign counterparts, the general reportedly testified.

The Safir missile is capable of transporting a satellite into space and indeed a ballistic missile that can reach beyond the earth's gravity into orbit. The missile has twice been vertically shot over the earth's atmosphere, the editorial says, "but if one day Iran decides that this missile should be shot parallel to the earth's orbit, the missile will actually be transformed into an intercontinental ballistic missile (that) has the capability to destroy targets in other continents."

"In other words," the editorial concludes, "the fact that Iran currently possesses technology that can put satellites into orbit means that Iran has also obtained intercontinental ballistic missiles with solid fuel capabilities and that at any moment, this technology can be put to military use."

Iranian officials recently announced that they have successfully developed the necessary technology to build and launch satellites designed to travel in an orbit 21,750 miles above the earth's equator -- and that, in the next few months, they will launch another rocket into space, this time carrying a monkey with a payload of 330 kilograms..

According to Dr. Peter Vincent Pry, a nuclear weapons expert who has served in the CIA, "Historically, if a nation could put a large payload (hundreds of kilograms) into orbit, that has been treated as a milestone signifying that they have a military ICBM capability. We appear to have changed this rule for Iran's space program. If Western analysts today applied the same standards to Iran that we have applied to the USSR and China in the past, we would conclude that Iran already has an ICBM capability.

"It seems that the Obama administration is unwilling to acknowledge this, perhaps not seeing it in its best interest, alluding that it still has time to negotiate," says Pry, who has also served with the EMP Commission and is now president of EMPact America.

The radicals ruling Iran have now passed a major threshold in both their nuclear and missile programs. Barring any military action, which seems unlikely, there is no stopping them.

We only have ourselves to blame as it is now certain that the Jihadists in Tehran will have nuclear bombs with the delivery system to target any country on the planet. Though the West relies on the policy of Mutual Assured Destruction, it will find how wrong this policy is with Iran.

http://www.americanthinker.com/blog/2011/08/iran_commander_we_have_intercontinental_ballistic_missiles.html


See also:Iran’s Ballistic Missile Capabilities(2004)
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=iran%20ballistic%20missile%20capability&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCAQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Ffpc.state.gov%2Fdocuments%2Forganization%2F39332.pdf&ei=GDf_Tt6vG46gsQKHqNGfAQ&usg=AFQjCNEs1uqsDLqA_ch195bt1bMvVDT_2A

Footnotes
1. Rand Corp., Dangerous But Not Omnipotent: Exploring the Reach and Limitations of Iranian Power in the Middle East (Rand Corporation, 2009), p. 80 [back]


Claim: Iran is insisting on enriching uranium, with no economic justification. That proves Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.
Response: No, it doesn’t. Iran is building nuclear reactors, which cost a fortune to build but are worthless without fuel. And there is no ironclad way to guarantee a fuel supply if the fuel in question is not located in Iran. Iran recalls that after the Revolution the chief enrichment consortium, Eurodif of France, refused to deliver one gram of fuel to Iran, even though Iran owned 10 percent of the company.1
More to the point, perhaps, all kinds of governments pursue programs for political purposes that lack clear, ex-ante, cost-benefit rationale. Conservatives have complained about this tendency in our own government for decades. In Iran, enrichment has become for Iranians a matter of national entitlement and a source of pride in technological advancement not unlike our own moon landing—supported by reformers and hardliners alike. Five years of Bush Administration ultimatums and Western pressure have made enrichment an ongoing emblem of Iran’s independence and refusal to be cowed. Commercial unprofitability is beside the point.
Many of the people who “just know” that Iran is pursuing a nuclear weapon are the same people who “just knew” that Saddam Hussein had a nuclear weapons program in 2003. They were wrong. The U.S. intelligence community, which has looked at this issue closely, finds Iran’s intentions on nuclear weapons to be unclear, and possibly not yet determined.
Footnotes
1. Slavin, Bitter Friends, Bosom Enemies (2007), p. 36. [back]
Iranian Lobbyists Propaganda. IAEA says they have tested the devise to implode nuclear material and that they have refined it up to 20% so far which is 400% higher than needed for nuclear power. Only a fool would believe otherwise.

What’s New in the U.N. Nuclear Report?

November 8, 2011 | 9:04pm.

Michael Adler

•What is new in the latest report by the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency about Iran’s controversial nuclear program?

The report takes the U.N. nuclear watchdog's accounting of Iran's nuclear program to a whole new level. It is the first time the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) has provided so many details as well as a coherent narrative of how Iran has allegedly done work on learning how to make an atomic bomb.

Among key findings are:

•Iran has continued weaponization work since 2003, despite the U.S. intelligence estimate that Tehran stopped such research at that time
•Iran had a secret project to make enriched uranium
•Iran has designs for how to make the type of uranium metal needed for a bomb. It had also done dry runs, not including nuclear material, on how to make this metal
•Iran may have more advanced plans on how to put a bomb together than previously believed
•Iran had foreign help in working on the detonators needed for an implosion-type nuclear device
•Iran did computer simulations to see if it could make an implosion bomb work. It based this on high-explosive tests using tungsten, a non-nuclear material
•Iran has changed the names and places of organizations doing weapons work in order to avoid detection. But many of the staff members remain the same, including the director of Iran's nuclear weaponization effort, Mohsen Fakhrizadah.
http://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2011/nov/08/what%E2%80%99s-new-un-nuclear-report


Claim:
Iran pursued covert R&D project on uranium conversion and enrichment that went on for years and was exposed only by an Iranian dissident group in August 2002. Iran then concealed and lied about its nuclear work to the IAEA.

Response:

It is certainly true that Iran initially concealed its program and later lied about it, suggesting that Iran was at least considering pursuing nuclear weapons at one point. It appears to be keeping that option open still. However, since the program was revealed in 2002, Iran is operating in a different environment of very close international scrutiny, making the risks of making a definitive move towards nuclear weapons far more difficult and risky for Iran.

Still, there are significant measures that could be put in place to make international scrutiny tighter and deterrence greater. The task now is to get in place a system of safeguards and surveillance that is so searching and comprehensive that Iran itself detemines that it will not be able to complete a weapons program without being detected early and stopped, thereby persuading Iran that it should satisfy itself with a peaceful nuclear program.

It bears mention that Iran has offered to accept very searching safeguards and surveillance in the context of a comprehensive agreement that respects its basic right to enrich for peaceful use. In fact, it suspended enrichment, accepted enhanced safeguards, and cooperated with the IAEA much more fully during the time (Oct. 2003-May 2005) that it thought there might be the prospect of such an agreement coming to fruition.

The IAEA Director General explains that the Annex is not a secret but rather a working draft not yet sufficiently vetted for publication. Its conclusions are drawn mainly from documents the agency has had in its possession since 2005 , but they serve as a reminder that knowledge of how to make at least a crude nuclear device is widely available . . .

Claim: IAEA has repeatedly declared that it cannot conclude that "there are no undeclared nuclear materials or activities in Iran."
Response: Making this finding requires proving a negative and the IAEA has set a very high bar for doing so. The Lawyer’s Committee on Nuclear Policy reported in 2006 that the IAEA applies the same “unable to conclude” status to every country that had not accepted the Additional Protocol at that time, and to 40 nations that have accepted it.

This does not mean that Iran's conduct is no more worrisome than the conduct of other countries. It clearly is much more worrisome. The point is simply that lack of proof of innocence is not the same thing as proof of guilt, and a lack of an IAEA declaration of "no undeclared nuclear materials or activities" is not terribly probative in an of itself. The IAEA has declared, repeatedly, that it has found no evidence of Iranian diversion of nuclear material for illicit purposes.

Iran has never stopped it’s nuclear weapons research program and has played the UN like the Keystone Cops they are:

Iran Whitewashing Nuclear Test Site
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/149961

Iran's Nuclear Program
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/international/countriesandterritories/iran/nuclear_program/index.html

Claim: Iran has forfeited its right to enrich uranium for any purpose.
Response: This is a popular misconception.1 Like other countries, Iran is entitled under the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty (NPT) to use nuclear energy for peaceful purposes, and that right has long been understood to encompass enrichment under safeguards.1 Nothing in the NPT or Iran's Safeguards Agreement supports the notion that a country is barred from enriching uranium if it has ever pursued a weapons program, even one halted years ago.

If Iran is willing to honor its legal responsibilities under its Safeguards Agreement and the NPT, there is no principled basis for denying Iran right’s to enrich or demanding that Iran permanently cede that right.
Footnotes
1. See, e.g., Remarks by Sec. of State Hilary Clinton on Meet the Press, July 26, 2009 ("You [Iran] have a right to pursue the peaceful use of civil nuclear power. You do not have a right to obtain a nuclear weapon. You do not have the right to have the full enrichment and reprocessing cycle under your control.") [back]

Why enrich it above the 5% necessary to 20%+?

Claim: Allowing Iran to enrich uranium will set off a nuclear enrichment and arms race in the Middle East.
Response: Iran’s nuclear program predates the Iranian Revolution. Over decades of history, enrichment has become a national industry in Iran and a symbol of independence. None of these circumstances apply to other nations in the region, and there is no commercial incentive to pursue enrichment. In fact, other states in the region have proposed enrichment via multinational consortium. This would both defuse the Iran crisis and set a new standard for a multilateral fuel cycle that would benefit the global nonproliferation regime. If the concern is that Iran’s enriching will cause other nations in the region to want a weapon, we fail to see how allowing Iran to enrich uranium under full safeguards will somehow spark a nuclear arms race when Israel’s bomb has not done so. Israel is far more hated and feared throughout the region than Iran.

No one was worried about a peaceful Iran who was allied with the West getting nuclear power plants. It’s the Fanatical Islamic Twelvers of Iran who want to reshape the Middle East into their mold that worries the West AND the Sunni Arabs in the region.

Claim: If Iran is allowed to accumulate a stockpile of enriched uranium at Natanz, they can seize it at any time and turn it into a bomb. Allowing Iran to enrich at Natanz will let Iran proliferate right under our nose.

Response: Not true. All the material produced at Natanz is low-enriched uranium that is unsuitable for weapons use. It is under IAEA seal and surveillance. And it is all fully accounted for. Any effort to seize or divert this material would be quickly detected and would provoke an international outcry with a very high likelihood of a forceful response, from Israel if not others.

Moreover, converting this low-enriched uranium to weapons-grade form would takes weeks if not months of further enriching, so there would be plenty of time to organize that response. Under these circumstances, a completely clandestine route would seem far more attractive to Iran than any breakout involving safeguarded facilities. Stopping enrichment at Natanz will do nothing to address the clandestine risk, and may well increase it by driving enrichment underground. Iran itself seems to realize the risk of using Natanz for a weaons program. That is likely why it constructed the Qom facility.

More propaganda! Again I repeat that only 5% of enriched uranium is needed to fuel a power plant. 20% CAN be used in a crude weapon but Iran is refining above that.

Iran Produces More 20% Pure Uranium

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/150420

Claim: Diplomacy has been tried. Iran won't negotiate in good faith on its nuclear program, unless we either impose or credibly threaten it with really tough econonomic sanctions.
Response:
Actually, diplomacy with the United States has not been tried. It is sanctions that have been tried and failed. For five years until nearly the end of its term, the Bush Administration refused to talk to Iran at all about nuclear issues -- because Iran would not comply with U.S. demands that it first suspend all enrichment. This strategy merely squandered time: while the U.S. sat silent, Iran continued to enrich.

It is true that the Europeans talked to Iran, and they didn’t make much progress. But this is hardly surprising. Without the United States – the world’s sole superpower and Iran’s chief nemesis – at the table, why should Iran give its best offer to Britain, France and Germany? They would just pocket Iran’s concession, which would become the starting point for later talks with the United States. more
Real diplomacy on this issue has not been tried, not by the United States, until Fall 2009. What has been tried is sanctions, and everyone agrees they have failed to achieve our objectives. They may well have set us back by galvanizing Iranian resistance. More of the same is not going to produce different results, and escalating the confrontation with a campaign for "crippling sanctions" will not only fail but backfire.
Footnotes
1. Following is the relevant text of the P5+1 offer to Iran as conveyed on June 16, 2008, largely reiterating a 2006 offer: “. . . the elements below [including support for light-water reactors, fuel supply guarantees and other incentives] are proposed as topics for negotiations between [the P5+1 countries and Iran], as long as Iran verifiably suspends its enrichment related and reprocessing activities . . .” (emphasis supplied). On any fair reading, this is not a specific offer so much as an outline for a negotiated settlement, discussion of which could not start until Iran had first met the Bush Administration’s precondition for talks: Iran must first suspend all enrichment immediately. This for Iran was a poison pill, whether intended as such or not.

This would all end if Iran cooperates fully with the IAEA and discontinue its refinement process beyond 5%.

http://americanforeignpolicy.org/iran-k ... %A0%C2%A0




American Foreign Policy Project are paid lobyists of the Iranian Government!
See RISE OF THE IRAN LOBBY
http://bonfiresblog.wordpress.com/tag/american-foreign-policy-project/
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:56 pm

I am confused. I thought Ron Paul was a 9/11 Truther.

Ron Paul Forcefully Denies Ever Supporting 9/11 Conspiracy Theories

Posted on January 1, 2012 at 5:46pm by Christopher Santarelli

Image

During an appearance Sunday on ABC’s This Week, Republican candidate for president Texas Rep. Ron Paul hastily interjected before interviewer Jake Tapper could even finish asking about claims that the congressman supported conspiracy theories in regards to the September 11 attacks.

“TAPPER: One of your former close aides recently said that you, quote, ‘engaged in conspiracy theories, including perhaps the 9/11 attacks were coordinated with the CIA, and that the Bush administration might have known about the attacks ahead of time.’ So have you ever expressed in front of anyone…

PAUL: Now, wait, wait, wait, wait. Don’t — don’t go any further on that. That’s complete nonsense.

TAPPER: It’s nonsense?

PAUL: Just stop that.

TAPPER: Not true?

PAUL: Yeah, no. I did not — I never bought into that stuff. I never talked about it.

TAPPER: OK.

PAUL: About the conspiracy of Bush — of Bush knowing about this? No, no, come on. Come on. Let’s be reasonable.

TAPPER: OK.

PAUL: That’s just off-the-wall.”

There have been questions raised in the past on whether Paul is sympathetic to so-called “9/11 Truthers,” and conspiracy theories on the attacks.

The latest claims came from former Paul staffer Eric Dondero, who accused Paul of engaging in 9/11 conspiracies, being Anti-Israel and an isolationist, among other allegations in a stunning post on Right Wing News last week.

CBS had reported that during a campaign stop last month, Paul said Bush administration officials were gleeful after the 9/11 attacks, for it gave the White House a pretext to invade Iraq.

“Just think of what happened after 9/11. Immediately before there was any assessment there was glee in the administration because now we can invade Iraq,” CBS reports Paul told a group of mostly young backers in Iowa on December 8.

On Sunday, Paul appeared ardent in disassociating himself from any links to 9/11 conspiracy theorists. ABC Video:





“He immediately stated to us staffers, me in particular, that Bush/Cheney were going to use the attacks as a precursor for ‘invading’ Iraq. He engaged in conspiracy theories including perhaps the attacks were coordinated with the CIA, and that the Bush administration might have known about the attacks ahead of time. He expressed no sympathies whatsoever for those who died on 9/11, and pretty much forbade us staffers from engaging in any sort of memorial expressions, or openly asserting pro-military statements in support of the Bush administration.” Eric Dondero



Ron Paul tells 9/11 Truther why he won't come out about the "truth" over 9/11
LarsaSolider



Ron Paul being interviewed by conspiracy theorist group 'We Are Change'.

Paul is asked why won't he come out about the "truth" on 9/11, Paul briefly pauses and says he couldn't handle the controversy and his positions on the Federal Reserve, IMF and IRS means he already has too much on his plate.

Transcript.

Kyley from 'We Are Change LA': Hi can I ask you a question?

Ron Paul: Fine, yeah sure.

Kayley: Okay, if we're going to audit the Fed don't we also have to audit the IMF given they're connected?

Paul: Whether not under the Fed but they-they... what you'll do is expose connections. We have er... the document which shows that the Federal Reserve went to the IMF, that the IMF pay interest to a private bank that made a loan and they're going broke. So it's very much involved but auditing you would dig up a lot of shenanigans because that's one thing they don't want us to know because all the arrangements with foreign governments, foreign banks and international banking organizations. We wouldn't audit everything the IMF does but every time the IMF had a dealings with the Federal Reserve we would have that.

K: Okay and one last thing why won't you come out about the truth about 9/11?

Paul: Because I can't handle the controversy, I have the IMF the Federal Reserve to deal with, the IRS to deal with because no because I just have more-too many things on my plate. Because I just have too much to do.

K: All right, thank you.

Paul: Okay.

K: Thank you very much.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby ktg » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:41 pm

Oldemandalton wrote:I am confused.


Agreed.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby moonwhim » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:49 pm

ktg wrote:
Oldemandalton wrote:I am confused.


Agreed.


I second that.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:53 pm

OMD, you have said previously that you believe the LDGs want to go to war with Iran. Why, then, are you buying into all of the mainstream propaganda which tells us why we should go to war with Iran? You already said we shouldn't go to war pre-emptively. Why do you support candidates who would go to war pre-emptively? It seems like you are actually ideologically closer to Ron Paul than anyone else, but just want Ron Paul to talk tough on Iran. You want more rhetoric. You have not addressed this yet:

So, what makes Ron Paul stand out among all other Republican candidates with regards to Iran?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone else supports the idea of pre-emptively striking Iran. So, if you personally DO NOT want to pre-emptively strike Iran, why would you vote for anyone who does?

If any of the front runners DO NOT support a pre-emptive strike on Iran, then doesn't it really all come down to just "talkin' tough" on Iran? Do you just want someone who "talks tough"?


So.. China has nuclear weapons... North Korea has nuclear weapons... are we the police of the world with them? Why haven't we gone in to take them out? I know this may sound wacky... but... what in the world gives us the right to tell another sovereign nation that they can't have nuclear weapons? Does might make right?

You may think I'm drinking the kool aid from certain groups, but I'd rather side with people giving me reasons not to go to war than listen to people telling me that we should go to war.

5tev3 wrote:
Obiwan wrote:
5tev3 wrote:Offensive war is never justified and is forbidden by Jesus Christ.

Mormon 3:14 "And when they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren..."

I wrote a whole article on the topic here.


Problem with your judgment is you quote mine the scripture to fit your own ideology, instead of considering the full context, and you also compare apples and oranges as if the circumstances are exactly the same when they aren't. Not only that, but you add to scripture trying to claim a one size fits all ideology, instead of considering the context itself.

Take for example the verse above. You entirely rip it out of it's context, the context being that the Nephites were actually "wicked" at the time, and Mormon didn't want to lead such a people another time because they hadn't repented.

See, the problem with people like you, is if your liberal ideology is consistent, we wouldn't have went to war against Germany or Japan.
After all, no need to go to them, let them come to us. People like you, we wouldn't have helped South Korea, and today the South would likely be just like the North is now. Oh.... Aren't you so RIGHTEOUS!

Sorry, but your liberalism is of the devil, not God.... Your views are perversion. Only the devil would want the wicked of the world to be left alone, becoming stronger and stronger, destroying the lives of the innocent. You sir, are not of God.... Repent.


I think you will find if you analyze the scriptures in context you will discover that it is quite consistent with my point. Mormon doesn't cease leading the Nephites because they were wicked, he forbids to lead the Nephites specifically because they decide to wage a war of aggression against the Lamanites. “And it came to pass that I utterly refused to go up against mine enemies; and I did even as the Lord had commanded me; and I did stand as an idle witness to manifest unto the world the things which I saw and heard,” (Mormon 3:16)

If it was because they were wicked then why did he go back to leading them again later when they were still wicked? Answer: because they had ceased going up unto their enemies and had reverted back to only defending themselves. In chapter 5 Mormon even repeatedly notes that it was always the Lamanites that came against them:

…the Lamanites did come against us as we had fled… (Mormon 5:3)
…they came against us again… (Mormon 5:4)
…the Lamanites did come again against us to battle… (Mormon 5:6)

I don't believe that you even read my entire article.

I don't know what you mean by "liberal" either. I don't consider myself a "liberal" or a "conservative" or any other divisive, meaningless, label since their meanings are polluted and both existing flavors of "liberal" and "conservative" factions are war-like and bloodthirsty people fueled by a corrupt red and blue headed party that masquerades as two distinct entities. Name-calling evidences that you do not understand an issue well enough to present your ideas properly.

I invite you to try reading the article again with an open mind and view the scriptures in their context. I'm quite confident that you will find that not only does the Lord never command his people to go out unto their enemies, the Book of Mormon provides many wonderful alternatives to dealing with enemies rather than destroying them.

Note that I believe, along with the scriptures, that we are fully justified in DEFENDING ourselves unto bloodshed but only as our enemies come against us. I'm not trying to promote myself as being "holier-than-thou" as you seem to imply, I am just trying to point out that your position is the opposite of what Book of Mormon and the founding fathers teach. It IS a one-size-fits-all ideology. You never go up against your enemies.

“they had sworn by all that had been forbidden them by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, that they would go up unto their enemies to battle, and avenge themselves of the blood of their brethren…”

Let’s refer back to President Kimball’s assessment of us: "We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching: “Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; “That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

Consider the words Ammon: "For they said unto us: Do ye suppose that ye can bring the Lamanites to the knowledge of the truth? Do ye suppose that ye can convince the Lamanites of the incorrectness of the traditions of their fathers, as stiffnecked a people as they are; whose hearts delight in the shedding of blood; whose days have been spent in the grossest iniquity; whose ways have been the ways of a transgressor from the beginning? Now my brethren, ye remember that this was their language. And moreover they did say: Let us take up arms against them, that we destroy them and their iniquity out of the land, lest they overrun us and destroy us. But behold, my beloved brethren, we came into the wilderness not with the intent to destroy our brethren, but with the intent that perhaps we might save some few of their souls." – Alma 26:24-26
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 4:55 pm

Oldemandalton wrote:I am confused. I thought Ron Paul was a 9/11 Truther.




Define truther. Someone who doesn't think that the 9/11 commission told the whole truth? Someone who thinks that there's a coverup of the botched communication and coordination between the agencies on 9/11? Someone who thinks that Bush was the mastermind behind the 9/11 attack? Someone who thinks flying saucers shot invisible lasers into the towers?

You've just now discovered there is more to the term "truther" than you realized.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby patriotsaint » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:14 pm

Oldemandalton wrote:
Patriotsaint
It may be true that there will be war either way, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for conducting any warfare in which we engage in a manner acceptable to our Father in Heaven. It seems clear we have two options at this point:

1. Preemptively strike Iran or support Israel in doing so, thus becoming the aggressor and forfeiting the support of heaven
2. Defend ourselves if attacked, but avoid becoming the aggressor, thus complying with the divine laws that will allow us heavenly aid in time of need


Me, as an American could go with either option.



I think those of us defending non-interventionism have shown through a multitude of resources that preemptive military action goes against the scriptures, teachings of our modern prophets and the views of the inspired founders. Those who would risk forfeiting the support of heaven by pursuing a foreign policy contrary to gospel principles are the ones who put America in real danger, because the only true danger to us is unrighteousness.

Just like the people of Ammonihah, no amount of political power or military might can protect us if we defile this land through unrighteous living. It's an issue of faith verses fear. Too many latter day saints believe we should put our faith in our own military might instead of God. President Kimball cautioned us against doing just that when he said:

We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel—ships, planes, missiles, fortifications—and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan’s counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior’s teaching:

“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven.” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us—and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Ne. 1:7)—or he will fight our battles for us (Ex. 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many) Full article here
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby John Galt Lives » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:43 pm

patriotsaint wrote:
“Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

“That ye may be [doormats to thine enemies].” (Matt. 5:44–45.)

We forget that if we are righteous the Lord will either not suffer our enemies to come upon us—and this is the special promise to the inhabitants of the land of the Americas (see 2 Ne. 1:7)—or he will fight our battles for us (Ex. 14:14; D&C 98:37, to name only two references of many) Full article here


So, I take it that your contention is that it was wrong to fight the Japanese and Nazis in WW II? Because the US did not "love" them, or "do good to them that" hated us, unless you count firebombing, killing, and nuking as "doing good to them." (In that context, I do consider it good and just, but it's not "doing good" in the sense implied by Matt 5:44.) Presumably, you would have preferred that we responded to Pearl Harbor by sending the Japanese food, in order to teach them that all they have to do to get a reward from America is attack it. When Nazi Germany conquered France, the US and Great Britain should have sent the Nazis extra clothes, and perhaps German-French translation dictionaries. But God, you contend, would have struck both of them down, somehow?

What the Founders actually should have done, presumably, in your view, was walk around, preach, and pray for God to strike down the British, as the British levied various taxes on them. This would have been what Jesus's apostles would have done, (and did do, in the face of the Romans.)

The Biblical statement you quote is incompatible with self-defense of any kind. It is a recipe for pacifism. I guess it's a good thing for the future US that the Founders were not zealous, mystical followers of Jesus, but rational, secular men. (Many were Deists, rather than Christians.)

"Shake off all the fears & servile prejudices, under which weak minds are servilely crouched. Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." -Thomas Jefferson

The US was founded by war, and it has been defended by war. Matt 5:44 is incompatible with war of any kind, and unsurprisingly, large parts of the Old Testament.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby patriotsaint » Tue Jan 03, 2012 9:55 am

John Galt Lives wrote:So, I take it that your contention is that it was wrong to fight the Japanese and Nazis in WW II? Because the US did not "love" them, or "do good to them that" hated us, unless you count firebombing, killing, and nuking as "doing good to them." (In that context, I do consider it good and just, but it's not "doing good" in the sense implied by Matt 5:44.) Presumably, you would have preferred that we responded to Pearl Harbor by sending the Japanese food, in order to teach them that all they have to do to get a reward from America is attack it.

Classic strawman argument. The Lord allows us to defend ourselves when we are actually attacked. Were we attacked by the axis powers? I believe that Pearl Harbor would be considered an attack that warranted defense. Iran is a completely different matter, as they have not attacked us and the Lord doesn't allow preemptive war simply to quash a perceived threat. You must not have read the whole thread if you think those of us who favor non-intervention believe there are never allowable circumstances under which we can and must fight.

When Nazi Germany conquered France, the US and Great Britain should have sent the Nazis extra clothes, and perhaps German-French translation dictionaries. But God, you contend, would have struck both of them down, somehow?

Do you believe the words of a living prophet? Do you believe the Lord has all power? Do you believe the scriptures when they chronicle the numerous times God has delivered his people against seemingly impossible odds? You need to review your history a little bit.

Did God deliver his people out of Egypt under the direction of Moses? (Exodus 14:14) Who fought that battle?
Did god deliver his people at Gibeon under Joshua's direction? Who won that battle, the Israelites, or the Lord? (Joshua 10:11-13)
What about when the Syrians came against Israel in the time of Elisha? Who fought that battle? (Kings 7:6-7)
Who caused the midianite host to slay itself in the time of Gideon? (Judges 7:22)
Who delivered the people of Alma in the land of Helam? (Mosiah 24:17-21)
Who delivered Zion's camp at the fishing river? (link here)

You can rely on the arm of flesh if you like. I'll trust what the Lord and his Prophets have said.


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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby John Galt Lives » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:49 am

patriotsaint wrote:Classic strawman argument. The Lord allows us to defend ourselves when we are actually attacked. Were we attacked by the axis powers? I believe that Pearl Harbor would be considered an attack that warranted defense. Iran is a completely different matter, as they have not attacked us and the Lord doesn't allow preemptive war simply to quash a perceived threat. You must not have read the whole thread if you think those of us who favor non-intervention believe there are never allowable circumstances under which we can and must fight.

Do you believe the words of a living prophet? Do you believe the Lord has all power? Do you believe the scriptures when they chronicle the numerous times God has delivered his people against seemingly impossible odds? You need to review your history a little bit.

Did God deliver his people out of Egypt under the direction of Moses? (Exodus 14:14) Who fought that battle?
Did god deliver his people at Gibeon under Joshua's direction? Who won that battle, the Israelites, or the Lord? (Joshua 10:11-13)
What about when the Syrians came against Israel in the time of Elisha? Who fought that battle? (Kings 7:6-7)
Who caused the midianite host to slay itself in the time of Gideon? (Judges 7:22)
Who delivered the people of Alma in the land of Helam? (Mosiah 24:17-21)
Who delivered Zion's camp at the fishing river? (link here)

You can rely on the arm of flesh if you like. I'll trust what the Lord and his Prophets have said.




"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."
-Matt 5:38-42

Really?
You can pretend that Jesus's statement doesn't mean what it means, but that doesn't change what the Bible says. When the Old Testament recommends death by stoning as a punishment for adultery, (Deut. 22:22) Christians would be all too quick to point out that Jesus lead the way in declaring this law as no longer appropriate. (John 8:7) But when he outright says, "Don't resist evil," all of a sudden, Christians start ignoring what he says and start citing the Old Testament. If we are going to go by the Bible, while ignoring Jesus, then we should still be stoning adulterers. (!) As I said, Jesus's preaching in this matter is directly opposed to large sections of the Old Testament.

The irony here is that I agree with you that both individuals, and the USA as a whole, have a moral right to defend themselves. My point is that, even though I agree with you on the issue of self-defense, Jesus does not. I make no pretense at agreeing with Jesus, or the Mosaic Law, with all its death penalties. I agree with the right of self-defense on the basis of a moral code utterly independent of the Bible.

patriotsaint wrote:Do you believe the words of a living prophet? Do you believe the Lord has all power? Do you believe the scriptures when they chronicle the numerous times God has delivered his people against seemingly impossible odds?



No, (I would require evidence that such an individual exists.) No. And no. I realize this is an alien situation for you on this forum, but I am in the habit of avoiding logical fallacies, such as the Appeal to Authority. (X says y is true; therefore y is true, without regard to a rational basis for X's expertise.)

What we see in the history of the US are battles won by the effort of human beings fighting them. We don't see a nation passively praying, followed by some disaster wiping out the enemy. (For example, we didn't see the Atlantic open up, like the Red Sea supposedly did, and engulf British ships in either of our wars with them.)
Perhaps you need to review your history a little bit.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby moonwhim » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:37 am

Oldemandalton wrote:
Patriotsaint
It may be true that there will be war either way, but that doesn't absolve us of the responsibility for conducting any warfare in which we engage in a manner acceptable to our Father in Heaven. It seems clear we have two options at this point:

1. Preemptively strike Iran or support Israel in doing so, thus becoming the aggressor and forfeiting the support of heaven
2. Defend ourselves if attacked, but avoid becoming the aggressor, thus complying with the divine laws that will allow us heavenly aid in time of need


Me, as an American could go with either option. It is the Israelis who are in the cross hairs of Iran who could not survive as a nation from a first strike of nuclear weapons by Iran. Israel could retaliate but will be done as a nation. Neither Ezekiel nor any other scriptural prophesy mentions a nuclear strike by an enemy of Israel. They do seem to refer to Israel using tactical nukes against armies attacking Israel (probable during the War of Armageddon). If Iran is allowed to get nuclear weapons, they being a member of Gog’s alliance, would use them without a doubt. So since there is no mention of it in prophesies then we have to conclude they have none at that time. Why? We know Iran is working on it. Do they back off at the last minute to get the sanctions lifted? I hope so. Best possible solution. Does Israel have ant-missile technology in time to defend themselves against Iranian missile strikes? Another posible solution. Does Israel and/or America take out their nuclear weapon site to stop them? Does the Stuxnet virus or other black ops keep Iran nuclear weapon free until Armageddon?

We don’t know but I believe that God will have a hand in the result. God promised that Judah would return in these the last days to the Holy Land. The nation of Israel will survive until the end of the 3 ½ year war mentioned in Ezekiel when the savior appears to them on the Mount of Olives. How they survive the next few years I have no idea, just that God will have a hand in it.


So, OMD, which Neo-con are you going to vote for? Any of the Republican candidates except for Ron Paul should be satisfactory.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby patriotsaint » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:12 am

John Galt Lives wrote:"Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away."
-Matt 5:38-42

You can pretend that Jesus's statement doesn't mean what it means, but that doesn't change what the Bible says. When the Old Testament recommends death by stoning as a punishment for adultery, (Deut. 22:22) Christians would be all too quick to point out that Jesus lead the way in declaring this law as no longer appropriate. (John 8:7) But when he outright says, "Don't resist evil," all of a sudden, Christians start ignoring what he says and start citing the Old Testament. If we are going to go by the Bible, while ignoring Jesus, then we should still be stoning adulterers. (!) As I said, Jesus's preaching in this matter is directly opposed to large sections of the Old Testament.

The irony here is that I agree with you that both individuals, and the USA as a whole, have a moral right to defend themselves. My point is that, even though I agree with you on the issue of self-defense, Jesus does not. I make no pretense at agreeing with Jesus, or the Mosaic Law, with all its death penalties. I agree with the right of self-defense on the basis of a moral code utterly independent of the Bible.


Luckily the Book of Mormon provides some clarification for us on what the Lord allows and expects. We read in Alma 43:47 that "the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion." We are expected to not resist evil....except in certain instances that the Lord himself has explained (mainly in the BOM) I'm not talking about the Mosaic law here, so don't get confused. There is provision in the gospel for self defense if you read the bible as it was meant to be read....using the BOM to understand and clarify doctrine.

John Galt Lives wrote:No, (I would require evidence that such an individual exists.) No. And no. I realize this is an alien situation for you on this forum, but I am in the habit of avoiding logical fallacies, such as the Appeal to Authority. (X says y is true; therefore y is true, without regard to a rational basis for X's expertise.)

What we see in the history of the US are battles won by the effort of human beings fighting them. We don't see a nation passively praying, followed by some disaster wiping out the enemy. (For example, we didn't see the Atlantic open up, like the Red Sea supposedly did, and engulf British ships in either of our wars with them.)
Perhaps you need to review your history a little bit.


Well if you can't accept the scriptures and the prophets as a reliable source then you are probably on the wrong forum. I'm sure you feel like tossing aside the revealed word is ok when it suits your purposes, but don't try to convince anyone here it stems from your need to avoid fallacies (see my reference to your cherry picking below). I see it as an easy way to sidestep something you find uncomfortable or foreign to your paradigm.

You are correct that our battles have been won in US history by fighting. The same was true for the Nephites and Israelites in many instances. My point was that if we strive for the level of righteousness necessary, God will fight our battles for us as both President Kimball and the scriptures have indicated. It has happened in the past and will happen again. Ever hear of the city of Enoch? How did the Lord fight their battles? How did the world react to the city of Enoch militarily? We can get there too if we exercise faith and establish Zion. So again, maybe you need to review your history instead of cherry picking the parts that suit your paradigm best.
Last edited by patriotsaint on Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby coachmarc » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:51 am

Ok, here's an unusual question. If a nuke is dropped on Israel, will Jerusalem be wiped off the map? If Jerusalem is wiped off the map, where will Christ set foot when He returns and appears to the Jews? And how will there be Jews to witness His coming if they're all wiped out by a nuke?
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby moonwhim » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:41 pm

Army veteran explains why he supports Ron Paul

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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 3:39 pm

coachmarc wrote:Ok, here's an unusual question. If a nuke is dropped on Israel, will Jerusalem be wiped off the map? If Jerusalem is wiped off the map, where will Christ set foot when He returns and appears to the Jews? And how will there be Jews to witness His coming if they're all wiped out by a nuke?



Ding ding ding! Winner!

Actually the scriptures say that one half of the city of Jerusalem will be captured. Israel will not be destroyed. I repeat! Israel will NOT be destroyed. They will be "scourged" with enemies (like the Nephites) because of their wickedness, but Christ will personally convert the Jews to Mormonism.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Original_Intent » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:02 pm

InfoWarrior82 wrote:
coachmarc wrote:Ok, here's an unusual question. If a nuke is dropped on Israel, will Jerusalem be wiped off the map? If Jerusalem is wiped off the map, where will Christ set foot when He returns and appears to the Jews? And how will there be Jews to witness His coming if they're all wiped out by a nuke?



Ding ding ding! Winner!

Actually the scriptures say that one half of the city of Jerusalem will be captured. Israel will not be destroyed. I repeat! Israel will NOT be destroyed. They will be "scourged" with enemies (like the Nephites) because of their wickedness, but Christ will personally convert the Jews to Mormonism.



I'd rather say that Christ will convert the Jews - and hopefully a good many Mormons - to the fullness of the gospel!
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby InfoWarrior82 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 4:13 pm

Original_Intent wrote:
InfoWarrior82 wrote:
coachmarc wrote:Ok, here's an unusual question. If a nuke is dropped on Israel, will Jerusalem be wiped off the map? If Jerusalem is wiped off the map, where will Christ set foot when He returns and appears to the Jews? And how will there be Jews to witness His coming if they're all wiped out by a nuke?



Ding ding ding! Winner!

Actually the scriptures say that one half of the city of Jerusalem will be captured. Israel will not be destroyed. I repeat! Israel will NOT be destroyed. They will be "scourged" with enemies (like the Nephites) because of their wickedness, but Christ will personally convert the Jews to Mormonism.



I'd rather say that Christ will convert the Jews - and hopefully a good many Mormons - to the fullness of the gospel!



That's the best way of putting it. Thanks OI!
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:52 pm

Coachmarc
Ok, here's an unusual question. If a nuke is dropped on Israel, will Jerusalem be wiped off the map? If Jerusalem is wiped off the map, where will Christ set foot when He returns and appears to the Jews? And how will there be Jews to witness His coming if they're all wiped out by a nuke?



Coach, I don’t think Jerusalem is on Iran’s target list, Tel Aviv and Haifa certainly along with military bases airfields, and missile sites. As I said before there are no such attacks described in prophesy.
An Ancient Chinese Curse "May you live in interesting times!"
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby liberty_belle » Thu Jan 05, 2012 3:56 pm

I appreciated the clip with "We are Change" as he clearly states that he has too much to deal with to get into 9/11 Conspiracies. ;)

A few years ago, I went to Richmond Ill. where there is a great memorial bldg all on Abraham Lincoln. I believe it is in the courthouse where there are two huge pictures of AL just a few years apart. You can tell how the few years he had been in office had worn on his face.....So, while he may have some personal beliefs (according to OMD's post on his Aide) he has not spent his efforts trying to expose them. Looks like he is taking one monster at a time...who could blame him for that? :-\
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby djinwa » Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:32 pm

For those whose biggest concern is Ron Paul's possible link to conspiracy theories.

Are we now bankrupt because of too little trust in government?

Maybe we need more conspiracy nuts.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:06 am

djinwa
For those whose biggest concern is Ron Paul's possible link to conspiracy theories.
Are we now bankrupt because of too little trust in government?
Maybe we need more conspiracy nuts.


Its not that Dr Paul believes in conspiracy theories, djinwa, we all do on this forum and so do the great majority of Paul supporters. Its is that Ron Paul lies about it in front of the public so he won’t lose votes. He is afraid to tell the American people what he really believes in regard to 9/11 and the state of Israel. He IS a long term politician.
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Original_Intent » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:09 am

Oldemandalton wrote:
djinwa
For those whose biggest concern is Ron Paul's possible link to conspiracy theories.
Are we now bankrupt because of too little trust in government?
Maybe we need more conspiracy nuts.


Its not that Dr Paul believes in conspiracy theories, djinwa, we all do on this forum and so do the great majority of Paul supporters. Its is that Ron Paul lies about it in front of the public so he won’t lose votes. He is afraid to tell the American people what he really believes in regard to 9/11 and the state of Israel. He IS a long term politician.


Wow, a legitimate concern with Ron Paul, instead of made up or regurgitated lies! I think we really are destined to be good friends OMD!
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby djinwa » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:21 am

Oldemandalton wrote:
djinwa
For those whose biggest concern is Ron Paul's possible link to conspiracy theories.
Are we now bankrupt because of too little trust in government?
Maybe we need more conspiracy nuts.


Its not that Dr Paul believes in conspiracy theories, djinwa, we all do on this forum and so do the great majority of Paul supporters. Its is that Ron Paul lies about it in front of the public so he won’t lose votes. He is afraid to tell the American people what he really believes in regard to 9/11 and the state of Israel. He IS a long term politician.


Many lie. I hear church members lying about polygamy and Joseph Smith. I think it's called giving milk before meat, right?

It is also amazing to me the lies people concentrate on. We were lied to about Iraq, and it will cost us trillions of dollars and thousands of lives, yet people focus on this piddly stuff.

90% of government is based on lies, and yet most people accept it.

How much time do you spend fighting against the other lies of government? Is it in proportion to the costs of that lying?
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby djinwa » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:39 am

Thinking more about this lying thing.

Fascinating to me how many tolerate the big lies, and nitpick the little ones.

What is the biggest lie as it applies to our leaders?

They each take an oath of office to abide by the Constitution. Yet virtually nobody does, and almost nobody cares.

Which is why, for example, Ron Paul was the lone vote against aid to Haiti after their earthquake.

As you read here, there was a time when our leaders had such courage and obeyed their oath despite the criticism.

http://www.hoover.org/publications/poli ... ticle/6956

Of course, Ron Paul often votes alone defending the Constitution. And then many accuse him of not gettting anything accomplished. So he is supposedly the problem, not the other 400+ who are selling out.

WHich is why we're in our current mess. And very few care. Anyone threatening the gravy train is a threat and must be exposed!

"One of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the great struggle for independence." - Charles A. Beard
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Re: Why I can't vote for Ron Paul

Postby Oldemandalton » Fri Jan 06, 2012 9:43 am

Ron Paul…The Man Who Will Determine Obama’s Fate.

Today we analyze our 6th of the republican presidential candidates, Congressman Ron Paul.

Image

First, your collective Facebook scores using the Ex. 18:21 four-part test:

Able = 1.4 out of 3

Fear God = 1.7 out of 3

Honesty = 2.2 out of 3

Principles over Politics = 2.2 out of 3

Dr. Paul so far places second to Santorum for the best overall average score so far (Perry has not been tallied yet. If you saw my initial post with higher numbers for Paul, I apologize, but I had not adjusted the formula in Excel for the extra number of votes he got so the average was based on the wrong number of votes). He had more maxed out 3’s than anyone…further evidence of the devotion of his fans. I would rank him just as high on honesty and principles over politics. But when it comes to his ability and fear of God (Biblical worldview), my view is completely different than most folks who voted in our survey.

Image

I have a lot of friends that are Ron Paul supporters. These are extremely smart, very patriotic, hard working, salt of the earth Americans. They are not the in your face, fanatical, kool-aid drinking, “if you don’t like Ron Paul you are a member of the trilateral commission flying black helicopters spying on my pot growing green house,” over the top, lunatics that most people think of when they think of Ron Paul zealots (otherwise known as Paulbots, Paulistas, etc.). There are plenty of Ron Paul fans that fit that description and have hurt his reputation and campaign more than they have helped it…but he has never lifted a finger or said a word to discourage the more vehement, radical actions of those fans (at least not that I know of). Worse, his anti-national security, blame America first rhetoric has become far worse over the last few years precisely because of the number of conspiracy theorists giving him support.

Back to my friends that are NOT the crazy ones. They support Ron Paul for very good reasons, the same reasons I supported him for years as my Congressman. They LOVE his bluntness (as do I), his willingness to say what he believes no matter what the cost, his steel backbone which shown every time he was the lone dissenting voice in a House vote of 434 to 1, and his “non-politician” appearance. He is about as much the opposite of “slick” as you can get and his almost nerdy normalness is refreshing to a nation sick and tired of the smooth talking, insincere, empty suits that fill our state and national politics.

Image

Dr. Paul has been screaming about the wasteful spending of Washington and the abuse of the Federal Reserve for decades. While I do not agree with him 100% on his FED reforms, I’m at about 98%. (the only real difference is that I believe just as strongly in free markets, but also know that they have booms and busts even without the micromanaging of interest rates and money supply…but like Dr. Paul, I also believe the market would make better decisions than the government).

Ron Paul is a one of a kind. Before I give you my bottom line assessment of his candidacy and the Paulistas start sending me hate mail, you should know that I have had dinner with Ron and Carol on multiple occasions, use to do joint campaign events with them (He was my Congressman when I served as a state representative) and even served on his committee to choose military academy appointments.

I love Ron Paul’s positions and backbone on many issues, but republicans nominating Paul would be handing the White House back to Obama with a big red bow. He is going to do well in Iowa only because no one has attacked him yet. As soon as people find out some of his more radical positions (legalizing drugs, practically cheering for Iran to have a nuclear weapon, those racists and anti-Israel newsletters, etc.), he will drop back down to 10 or 12 percent and I’ll be surprised if he gets any more than 8% in any other state when the actual primary voting begins.

Three reasons why Ron Paul will not be the republican nominee:

1.His isolationist views are not new to American politics, but they are not at all popular enough for him to win a national election (either in the primary or the general). Sure, lots of people initially nod in agreement when he delivers a one liner about “we should bring our troops home from the border of Pakistan and secure our own borders” or “we need to stop spending money interfering with other nations and take care of our own fiscal crisis.” That sounds great and we can all agree in principle, but as the campaign continues and people find out what that actually means in Ron Paul’s world, his support will wane to only those few that are naïve enough to think that the radical terrorists will suddenly leave America alone if we just withdraw into our borders. That view ignores their underlying motivations. One only has to go back to the first war against radical Islam (Barbary Pirates) to find them attacking our merchant ships for no other cause than their reading of the Koran. Any candidate who blames 9/11 on America does not understand history, does not represent anywhere near a majority of Americans, and should not be president.

2.Everything negative I said in my review of Santorum regarding his communication style can be multiplied three fold for Ron Paul. Unless you already have libertarian leanings, it is very difficult for Ron Paul to win your vote because he is so whiney and negative. It doesn’t matter how right he is if people tune him out. 90% of the people in a general election will tune him out and never listen to his arguments. He fails the “able” test completely because he is unable to communicate effectively and appealingly in such a way as to move enough people to action to win a national election. Yes, his style moves a small percentage to new levels of committed action; and that may well move the entire nation as a whole towards the issues for which he advocates, but it will not come anywhere close to enough people to elect him.

3.If Ron Paul had lived in the late 1700’s, he would have loved the French Revolution far more than the American Revolution. He wants to separate religion and moral values from public policy and it simply cannot be done. Someone’s values are going to determine the policy issues. When the French killed or kicked out all the priests and tried liberty without boundaries, it led to complete chaos and the near destruction of the nation. The American Revolution was very different. It was based upon the idea that liberty is a gift of God and must be lived out with a respect for the source of that freedom; which means there are, in fact, boundaries and society does have a responsibility to say no to certain actions. It’s easy to be a pure libertarian and say government has no place in ANY moral decisions, but just ask the thousands of French killed at the guillotine how the absence of morality worked out for them under the Jacobins. Here in America, we have been getting our own taste of the destructive results of the influence of Rousseau as the secularists have moved us more and more towards the idea of everyone doing whatever seems right in their own eyes. The only thing wrong is to actually speak with moral clarity and say that something is wrong. Though Ron Paul would say he does not believe in moral relativism, his political philosophy embraces it for the nation. For all his talk of respecting the Constitution, he would have been a dissenting voice among the Founding Fathers and their basic ideas about freedom.

So if Ron Paul cannot win the nomination, why will he determine Obama’s fate? If Ron Paul supports the republican nominee, no third party candidate will gain enough momentum to be the Ross Perot of 2012. But if Ron Paul runs third party or endorses a third party candidate, it’s a virtual guarantee that Obama will be re-elected, albeit with only about 42% of the vote.

It was my impression that Ron misled republican voters in 2008. He knew that republicans were hesitant to support him if he was willing to bolt the party later, so he was asked in the debates if he was going to run 3rd party and he said no, but then he left the team anyway and turned around and supported a third party candidate.* It wasn’t that big of a deal in 2008, only amounting to 0.15% of the vote (that’s only one out of 667 voters!). But in 2012, with the fickleness of tea party voters looking for the non-politician, Ron Paul as a third party candidate could get 10% to 15% or a Ron Paul backed candidate could get 3% to 5% and it will spell certain victory for Obama in the key toss up states, giving him re-election.
Whoever wins the republican nomination would be foolish to dismiss Ron Paul and his supporters as wackos or the fringe. The republican nominee MUST give Ron Paul the praise he deserves for championing important issues, engaging new people in the process, and running a very good campaign. The nominee should find a way to include Ron Paul in the new administration and bring his supporters onto the team for the general election, rather than kicking them to the curb and setting up a third party candidacy.

If he is given the respect he deserves and the opportunity to influence economic policy, I believe Ron Paul should, and would, choose the good of the nation over his own gain.

I know Ron Paul is a patriot.

I pray that his patriotism will trump his ego and he will choose to back the republican nominee in order to save our nation from the devastation of four more years of Barack Obama.

*I have modified this from the original post. Even though I did not use quotation marks, some took my interpretation of Ron’s 2008 remarks to be a direct quote, but it was not. It is what I believe his message was intended to be based on the context of the questioning before his answer. The modified text should be more clear.
http://www.rickgreen.com/ron-paulthe-ma ... amas-fate/



If I won the Republican nomination I would offer Ron Paul Cass Sunstein's job as ‘Regulatory Czar’ so he could eliminate all of the Departments in the Executive Branch that we don’t need. Education, Energy, Agriculture, etc.
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