Young Women's leaders and boob jobs-a thesis

[Lady Believercaptain of 100]

Great talk from the prophet-
http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/ ... -39,00.htm

And one more idea regarding changing our so called "god made bodies". Our bodies are made from sperm from an imperfect body and an egg from another imperfect body. We end up with imperfect bodies. To suggest changing our bodies is somehow bad because "god made them" is just stupid. So a person shouldn't get braces because God made their teeth crooked? That line of thinking is extremely narrow, to a fault in fact. If you have bad eye sight you shouldn't wear glasses or even get lasik surgery because God made your eyes bad on purpose?

I appreciate your comments Shadow.

[loquaciousmommacaptain of 100]

I think that whether or not someone else chooses to alter their bodies is none of my business. I do understand, however, the concern of having a YW leader alter her body and then make it known to the girls. I think it sets a bad example and sends the wrong message.

The reason I have a problem with it is the willingness to submit your body to surgery, a very dangerous thing anymore, for such an unimportant thing as your chest size. I think teenage girls are already so worried about their bodies that having a leader tell them by their example that appearance is so important as to justify the extreme of surgery could make this already challenging time of life harder.

I only see cosmetic surgery as necessary to remedy a form of disfigurement. To take an already whole body and alter it is vanity in my book. Again, this is in regards to my own decisions, not judging another who chooses to do so. I have attempted to talk a woman out of doing so many years ago, but once she decided to do it, the subject was never brought up again and I didn't think any less of her, only sad that she felt the need to do so to feel beautiful.

I actually don't like the idea of braces, as it is vanity. I did have two children who got braces but felt so wrong about it, especially when I realized that the ortho was going to leave a permanent retainer in their mouths. Are straight teeth so important to justify metal in your mouth for the rest of your life? I don't think so. The next child who asked for them is pretty mad at me because I am not willing to do it at this time. If my husband overrules me or convinces me, then maybe, but I just don't like it.

I think the daughters of Zion have believed the lie that beauty is our responsibility. We are to take care of ourselves and do the basic things we need to do to ensure our husbands are comfortable with our appearance. I don't, however, think it should be the focus it seems to have become in our church. I often feel looked down upon by the women who wear beautiful clothing and flawless hair, with perfect makeup. I have always appreciated the natural look, sadly that has fallen out of favor in the last twenty or so years...

[kathedralegscaptain of 100]

I think that whether or not someone else chooses to alter their bodies is none of my business. I do understand, however, the concern of having a YW leader alter her body and then make it known to the girls. I think it sets a bad example and sends the wrong message.

The reason I have a problem with it is the willingness to submit your body to surgery, a very dangerous thing anymore, for such an unimportant thing as your chest size. I think teenage girls are already so worried about their bodies that having a leader tell them by their example that appearance is so important as to justify the extreme of surgery could make this already challenging time of life harder.

I only see cosmetic surgery as necessary to remedy a form of disfigurement. To take an already whole body and alter it is vanity in my book. Again, this is in regards to my own decisions, not judging another who chooses to do so. I have attempted to talk a woman out of doing so many years ago, but once she decided to do it, the subject was never brought up again and I didn't think any less of her, only sad that she felt the need to do so to feel beautiful.

I actually don't like the idea of braces, as it is vanity. I did have two children who got braces but felt so wrong about it, especially when I realized that the ortho was going to leave a permanent retainer in their mouths. Are straight teeth so important to justify metal in your mouth for the rest of your life? I don't think so. The next child who asked for them is pretty mad at me because I am not willing to do it at this time. If my husband overrules me or convinces me, then maybe, but I just don't like it.

I think the daughters of Zion have believed the lie that beauty is our responsibility. We are to take care of ourselves and do the basic things we need to do to ensure our husbands are comfortable with our appearance. I don't, however, think it should be the focus it seems to have become in our church. I often feel looked down upon by the women who wear beautiful clothing and flawless hair, with perfect makeup. I have always appreciated the natural look, sadly that has fallen out of favor in the last twenty or so years...

I have to agree with much of what you have written here though I do respectfully disagree with the underlined. Teeth misaligned can cause all manner of health issues. They can wear down sooner, cause infections of the gums which have larger more sweeping health issues that can affect the heart. Since we use them every day eating, there are all manner of issues with jaw pain, headache etc that could come from not treating misaligned teeth. Not to say that sometimes braces can be cosmetic. Again just my thoughts no disrespect intended.

[loquaciousmommacaptain of 100]

I have to agree with much of what you have written here though I do respectfully disagree with the underlined. Teeth misaligned can cause all manner of health issues. They can wear down sooner, cause infections of the gums which have larger more sweeping health issues that can affect the heart. Since we use them every day eating, there are all manner of issues with jaw pain, headache etc that could come from not treating misaligned teeth. Not to say that sometimes braces can be cosmetic. Again just my thoughts no disrespect intended.

No disrespect taken! I realize some people have issues that need to be addressed with braces. My sister, for example, had two rows of teeth, she needed several pulled and then had braces.

I was mostly referring to the cosmetic usage of braces. It has become the cultural norm to have braces if your teeth aren't naturally straight. That is the vanity I was talking about.

[ChelCThe Law]

I haven't read through all of this, but here are a few random thoughts I have.

1. I don't know anyone in my ward who has fakies, but I guess some may have. I have no idea.

2. Yep, it's sad that women feel they need them. It's wrong that women have been so objectified.

3. My Mom was mentioned here as having some work done for the wrong reasons. I agree that she didn't need them and I wish she hadn't gotten them. She was and is beautiful and she could have stood as a strong example to her grand daughters one day. That's a missed opportunity. But something else I want to say about my Mom is that she did some things right. She made mistakes but she always was willing to serve and she always accepted people. To me, vanity is one of my mother's faults that pales in comparisob with the lessons of charity that she taught me. There are far too many examples for me to cite, but she certainly knew how to love the sinner.

I remember one situation which stands out.

There was a young single gal in the military who would come over to our home for meals sometimes, or sit by us at church. She was really nice, but was having difficulty living the gospel. She ended up getting pregnant out of wedlock. I asked my Mom about it and there was never the slightest hint of judgment when she told me that this lady had made a mistake. She loved and accepted her no less. This woman was never a bad influence upon me. Quite the contrary. She was human and we loved her!

So in defense of my mother, while I will agree with the point raised- she shouldn't have had the knocker job- I'm not sure I'll ever be half of the woman she is when it comes to pure charity.

I think we could all learn a little something from my Mom as imperfect as she is. Some of the best sermons are preached without words. I'm thankful to my mother for teaching me to live among and love the sinners of the world, which is really the only way to inspire them to walk in correct paths.

I struggle sometimes to find the right balance between protecting myself and my family from evil influences and going too far and seeing so much negativity that I make myself miserable. I think we tend to see what we're looking for. For the past year or so I've prayed to see people the way the Lord does and where I haven't gotten in my own way it has completely changed my perspective. The goodness I find in people blows me away.

Pres. Hinckley always amazed me with his ability to love people. I like the poem he read once in conference "Let me live in a house by the side of the road..." It doesn't come naturally to me to be as positive as he always was.

I guess what I'm getting at here is that sometimes this forum is full of self fulfilling prophecies. I think we're missing the boat if we aren't actively looking for the good in people. We may or may not be openly judging a person- I think we should be able to vent about disturbing trends- but we're selling ourselves short when we dwell on the negatives or wait for near perfection to engage with people around us.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

I agree ChelC. Your mom sounds pretty great in my book. Christ hung out with all sorts of people that society generally shunned and would have looked at as bad examples. And I'm sure some of them were. But even Christ who was perfect did not judge them but spent time with them and taught them through his example. The best way for us to help others is by loving them and finding ways we can be good examples and teachers. And to support each other. It doesn't mean we have to condone every ones choices. It just means that we don't look down on them for those choices and show compassion. I recently learned this lesson in a very big way. There is someone in my life who I had judged harshly for a lot of years and hadn't even realized how harsh I had been. Then I learned of some things this person went though and some of their circumstances and immediately knew I had been so narrow minded. I was so surprised after learning this new information to see just how blind I had been. It's something I have had to painfully repent for but I had been praying for help to forgive this person when really I was the one in need of forgiveness. You never know what struggles someone else is going through. It can be hard to understand why sometimes people make choices we feel we never would. But there are always reasons why people do the things they do. It doesn't make the bad choices right or ok but it does allow us to see people through new eyes.

And as a side note: I did read the other threads that you made recently Swiss and really appreciated them. I wanted to see more involvement in those topics too. They were good ones. The thread about motherhood was especially a blessing for me to read so I wanted you to know that. Being a mom is one of the most important things about my life and I love learning more about that calling.

[paper facecaptain of 100]

I think the main reason why women get boob jobs is because they want to belong.

Belonging to a marriage, a family, and a community are all good things. Ultimately, we all want to belong. But the means by which we arrive at that belonging ends up meaning a lot in the long run. It's just like the folks who built the Tower of Babel. They did so to get to Heaven, right? Were they wrong in this desire? Not necessarily. What was wrong was that they attempted to do so sans ordinances. IOW, they tried to bypass the Priesthood and the Atonement of Jesus Christ. The lesson they learned was a heavy one.

The Atonement creates belonging. That's the entire purpose of the plan of salvation: without bodies and experience we simply didn't belong to the order that our heavenly parents belong to. So mortality allows us to take the necessary steps for taking our place next to them in the order in which they live. The marriage of the Bride (the church) and the Bridegroom (Christ) is intended to create the belonging of a grand marriage covenant that is permanent.

I think one problem with boob jobs & other procedures (partaken of by both sexes) is that they employ an intentional forgetting of what the body is. Christ asserts that the body is a temple. If he is to be taken at his word, then all things performed in, of, & by the body are to be understood as endowments of power. All of the notions that we assign to the rites performed in the building must reflex back upon the body.

All power is either endowed by Christ or by the world. If it is by Christ, it is through his Atonement and ordinances. If it is by the world, it is through some other atonement & some other ordinances. Christ's entire construct is rebirth, and the world mimics him.

All covenants are "cuts", right? The surgery table is essentially an altar. What is sacrificed? The real you. If the temple and the chapel are wombs from which we are reborn different individuals that what/who we were when we entered, then the surgery room is a rebirth canal also. The differences are the ideals atoned with (Christ vs. the world's standard of beauty) and those who collect the tithes. But the patrons in either case are still endowed with power.

The problem with counterfeit endowments is that, just like Christ's covenants, they create a culture of inheritance. While I don't want to add to the personal issues experienced by those who are thus enhanced, I do want to identify their atonements for what they truly are. Why? So that the mothers and women who do get enhanced break the cycle of either directly or indirectly encouraging their daughters and sisters into following them to that table.

Idol worship has long involved blood sacrifice. It is no different today in that regard than it was for the Psalmist:

“And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them. Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils, And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood. Thus were they defiled with their own works, and went a whoring with their own inventions.” - Psalm 106:36-39

The actions of both men and women affect the perceptions and choices of youth. Examples are set no matter what we choose. If the body is a temple as Jesus claims, then there is literally nothing that we do that is inconsequential. The more people in our culture that alter their bodies in refusal of who and what they are, the more we imperil the divine identity of our young people.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

And one more idea regarding changing our so called "god made bodies". Our bodies are made from sperm from an imperfect body and an egg from another imperfect body. We end up with imperfect bodies.

Yes, that is true for the time being. With advances in biotechnology though I would say this will be less and less the case in future generations.

[sourcedistcaptain of 100]

if a man is looking to 'adult material' as his standard of beauty and lusting after those objects within that material, then he is walking a dangerous path..
if a woman is looking to that 'perfect man' in a chat room for love or to fulfill her fantasy, then she walks the same path..

i suggest folks take a look at the below video..

Watch Your Step:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWQ5dPeixdw


all this crap you see on TV and within your 'adult entertainment' is a ruse.. the brethren are right.. STAY CLEAR..

these folks walking this path who finally taste of these 'fruits' will find out soon enough, that they really have taken in the most potent of poisons..
and those who say, they can partake, but then repent.. are only fooling themselves.. of course there is repentance, but the price to pay wont even be worth it.. for what.. 10-15mins of 'joy'... just silly..

love your wife.. love your husband... that other crap compares a total of negative zero against the pure love between man and wife.. trust..

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

love your wife.. love your husband... that other crap compares a total of negative zero against the pure love between man and wife.. trust..

Absolutely! Of course I would say that many talk shows, women's magazines and prime time TV shows are just as dangerous as porn in that their message undermines the family philosophically. Porn centers on sex and involves paying people to engage in fornication or adultery on camera. Most people realize it is wrong but that it is also fantasy. Most people trust the people who attack the family unit in the MSM. They may initially disagree with these people on this or that, but through a sort of osmosis the "virus" gets into the minds of the viewers.

Oh, as for the video, I tried to post a reply saying that as a people we should boycott all businesses that profit from porn. The comment was rejected to be displayed on the commentary section. Wonder why?

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Do LDS women 'electing' to have breast augmentation ask for a Priesthood blessing prior to surgery? Might be a good idea....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... owers.html

They were not the first warnings about the quality of the implants being produced by PIP at their plant in the south of France.
In March 2000, the US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) refused to approve a different type of implant, filled with saline, which was produced by the company.
The regulator said research to support the safety of the product was “at best unproven” and halted its use in the US, where 35,000 had already been sold.
Three months later, the FDA issued a warning that implants had been found to be adulterated, and that 11 deviations from “good manufacturing practices” had been found during a visit to the PIP plant.
In December of that year, British medical watchdogs issued an alert over another type of breast implant made by PIP, in which a substance called hydrogel was contained in a silicone coating.

http://news.google.com/news/more?q=sili ... CDAQqgIwAA

If a husband needs to have his 'eternal companion' risk her health for a fantasy bosom buy him a pair to take along with him to have installed in the woman he marries after your divorce.

It's darn certain you will not be taking those things with you to the Celestial Kingdom.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

Again, if we are going to make this an issue of bashing husbands (quite common in Mormon circles and a favorite activity of many Relief Society sub-groups) can someone please explain how mindless Mormon women are so that they can be forced to get breast implants? Seriously, the majority of LDS women are not real-life versions of "The Stepford Wives" and I truly believe this is something they want.

And why would they want it? We live in a consumeristic society, and in regards to who fuels this it is generally women. And they and gay men either set or maintain the norms. Women wear make-up because they fear how other women will react if they don't (women can be mean-spirited gossipers). Women shave because they don't want to be put down by other women and women buy 100 pair of shoes to keep up with other women. Brigham Young was married to two dozen women and I doubt any of them wore make-up, shaved or had more than two pairs of shoes. I doubt he complained about that. Of course this was before the age of consumerism ushered in by Bernays.

[AshleyBcaptain of 1,000]

Funny that you are always talking about men bashing Fiannian but what you just said sounds a lot like women bashing to me. The only reason husbands were brought up in this thread was because two of us mentioned that part of the pressure to get them was because of our husbands habbits of looking at other women's bosoms. Those are realities in our lives and not the easiest thing to deal with. You have 0 idea what that is like so you have 0 place to say anything about it. And I don't think sating some of the realities = men bashing. To my knowledge no one has stated their husbands forced them to do anything but that their husbands actions definitely were an influence on why any women would feel the need to do it. However, all of your complaining about women is certainly women bashing at it's best.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

I'm curious which violates the body and Word of Wisdom more, a cup of coffee or being cut open under anesthesia and stuffed, taxidermy style with sandwich bags full of silicone? Which gives place for the enemy of my soul? Literally gives a physical place for him to stake his claim within my bosom, my breast, my heart, perhaps the most sacred place within us, the sacred bosom of a mother. And if you doubt that then contemplate what Buffalo Girl posted about and ask yourself if they were made by the hand of God through man, or satan by man?

Re-read your scriptures and insert into the narrative Mary and Elisabeth and Esther and Ruth having boob jobs and ask if it doesn't disappoint?

When somebody that is, say a young women's leader drinks coffee openly, shall we say, "but she is the most charitable person I know. It's not our business what she chooses to drink in front of our daughters!" Or shall we seek somebody that shares our values and standards as a role model and instructor for our children? I know my answer, and I know yours unless you are hypocrites and I am ashamed for you in either case.

From this thread it is clear to me that there are two different sets of standards here. One based on true principles, and the other, like the unfortunately true Utah common knowledge cliche that Utah just lags a few years behind Babylon in all things.

You know Chel, (Jeremy posting this) Pa was at a priesthood leadership meeting a few years back where a brother in authority drew a descending line on the chalkboard. He said it represented the worlds descent towards evil. He then asked where they thought the church was in relation. He then drew a parallel line just above the other that followed it right on down. This thread proves to me that he was correct.

I know what mom is and isn't and I can and will call a spade a spade. Your post said everything mine did relevant to the subject of boob jobs and then added an irrelevant measure of charity as if we're constructing a report card (in which case I would ask just who it is that's judging her, as opposed to judging one act in isolation. See you're trying to judge the sinner, I'm just judging the sin). Again, I know what she is and isn't, but when was this ever about whether a person could be a good person and have a boob job? When did I fail to note that we all make mistakes? Are you not judging me beyond my/our words? Clearly you and many here are.

But shall we excuse and embrace everyone in their sins and not exercise common sense any longer? Shall we no longer choose our friends and leaders in wisdom? Shall we trust the pedophiles/molester to babysit like the family we knew in Layton? Have you really come so far since I really knew you well? If so I am disappointed to say the least.

For the record Swiss and I, as is most often the case have worked on this together, we each edit and approve each others posts and for that reason the words are and will always be mixed, with some exceptions. She submitted every post on this thread.

Is there anyone on here that thinks that getting a boob job aside from a mastectomy/malformation and the like is good, right, or proper?

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I don't think anyone here (on this thread) recommends boob jobs. But your tone towards others, especially your own mother is quite judgmental and holier than thou IMO. Comparing a woman with implants to a child molester? Really? You have too much time conjure up crazy ideas up in Alaska if you ask me.



“While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy (Not you though, right?), the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of those contracted feelings that influence the children of men, causes ‘His sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.’ [Matthew 5:45.]” --JOSEPH SMITH

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

This is Swiss here...
If you feel pressure from your husband then I like Buffalo Girl's response - divorce him. Don't pass that pressure onto the rest of us by caving into babylon and conforming to her norms and expectation and then expecting us to understand and even console you.

I grew up with a mom who would grab us younger children and storm out of the home, load us into the car, swearing she was leaving dad, it was for real this time. I came home to her doing the dishes, red faced, having a very heated discussion with no one! Then in High School she came to me nearly weekly with her cries of poor me your dad's a rat what do I do? And I got to the point where I just told her every time, "leave him!" He's still abuse to her and she still makes excuses and conforms to his will. She was trying to pass her burden off onto her children and everyone around her but she never had my sympathy. She has as much free agency as anybody. She has just as much time in the day, more means than most, and she grew up with the gospel truth surrounding her whether she takes it to heart or not.

How many of your standards are you willing to compromise to keep your husband happy? That's not the kind of person I want as a role model for my daughter, lest she grow up to be my mother.

If you're so pro-women then why aren't you sticking up for them? Why instead are you trying to convince us women to be a push over just because our husbands won't rise up? But, if we won't either then why can we complain? If both men and women sit around waiting for the other to rise up and create Zion then it will never be formed. Let's take a stand! Even if that means telling our husbands to stick or picking better ones to start with. There are some things that women of God should never compromise and this is absolutely one of them! The worst women haters are women who would compromise to conform to man and his lusts!

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

But your tone towards others, especially your own mother is quite judgmental and holier than thou IMO.

That's all you've got, tone? Really? I judge an act and apply it as unfit by way of a role model for our precious daughters and you judge me by inference and perceived tone. Telling.

One day you will know that while you willingly debase all of femininity and sacrifice our daughters to the changing fashions of Babylon, making apologies all the while for what we all acknowledge is wrong, we actually cared more about women in general and specific than perhaps any others on here.

Heck, look at the response to whichever poster said she had them. Was it not charitable and trying to help and make things better for her (as opposed to everyone else's posts seeking to coddle her without trying to help at all, embracing and asserting the choice that she admitted was wrong)? How many other posters genuinely tried to help make her life better, happier?

As Chel stated whilst condemning me for stating only the same exact thing:

3. My Mom was mentioned here as having some work done for the wrong reasons. I agree that she didn't need them and I wish she hadn't gotten them. She was and is beautiful and she could have stood as a strong example to her grand daughters one day. That's a missed opportunity

So Shadow, feel like applying the same condemnation to Chel? Or is perceived "tone" everything with you? At least I can quantify my morality!

Maybe we need to start a new thread about judgement! It is obviously sorely needed!

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

Funny that you are always talking about men bashing Fiannian but what you just said sounds a lot like women bashing to me. The only reason husbands were brought up in this thread was because two of us mentioned that part of the pressure to get them was because of our husbands habbits of looking at other women's bosoms. Those are realities in our lives and not the easiest thing to deal with. You have 0 idea what that is like so you have 0 place to say anything about it. And I don't think sating some of the realities = men bashing. To my knowledge no one has stated their husbands forced them to do anything but that their husbands actions definitely were an influence on why any women would feel the need to do it. However, all of your complaining about women is certainly women bashing at it's best.

Funny, I have sat in a number of church meetings with men and never has there been even a hint of bashing women. However, I have observed women bashing other women (gossip) and being very judgmental. And I have often asked women who they wear expensive clothes, tote several hundred dollar handbags around and wear gobs of make-up for. At first they say it is for themselves, but soon admit it is to either fit into their girlfriend crowds/peers or outshine them.

I will put it like this, the average guy will be intimate with his wife even if she stopped using make-up, wore blue jeans, shopped for handbags at K-mart, stopped shaving and only took some time to keep her body in shape. Guys aren't that picky, really! If hairy legs on all the legs of his wives were good enough for Joseph Smith then they would be good enough for the average LDS guy. And I am sure Brigham Young had some wives who had large breasts and some who were flat. I doubt he complained.

And as I stated before, no man has a right to insist his wife get breast implants any more than a woman has a right to tell her husband to get a nose job. If a woman wants a breast job, great for her! If a man wants a nose job then all the power to him. If it is their choices in life then go for it.

Oh, and as for men looking at breasts I have heard women make comments about guys and their rear ends all the time. I have even experienced this (in jokes or in seriousness -- the kind that borders on sexual harassment I suppose). Does it bother me? Nope, women are genetically programed to check out male symmetry and general physical fitness in the opposite sex. Males are programed to look at symmetry as well as secondary sexual characteristics that suggest genetic and reproductive fitness. And so what? That is the way God designed us. A wedding ring is a sign of commitment but it will not change the way the brain operates. It is our ability to avoid giving in that is a sign of character.

[loquaciousmommacaptain of 100]

I realize that we can get pretty contentious because we all have such strong feelings about things. I know I am guilty of it on many occasions, believe me.

I thought I would share this though, the spirit it brought me when I watched it was just what the doctor ordered!

[bbrowncaptain of 100]

I find it telling that every time someone discusses a commandment or sin, the automatic response is "You're judging!" and is generally followed by judgemental comments made by the same.

CB

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Nope, women are genetically programed to check out male symmetry and general physical fitness in the opposite sex. Males are programed to look at symmetry as well as secondary sexual characteristics that suggest genetic and reproductive fitness. And so what? That is the way God designed us. A wedding ring is a sign of commitment but it will not change the way the brain operates. It is our ability to avoid giving in that is a sign of character.

I must not have gotten that 'program'. Lucky, I guess.

The wedding ring/commitment concept seems a bit floppy, to me. I don't wear a wedding ring - been married 32 years - cannot recall 'looking at symmetry and general physical fitness in the opposite sex' - even in my husband when we were much younger. Must be in sexual doldrums, eh?

I did notice though how he treated my two sons from my first marriage to a Melchizedek Priesthood holder who was a chronic adulterer.

I did notice over the time we dated that he was willing to accept the challenge of being committed to a less than physically perfect, slightly older woman with two rambunctious sons who crawled all over him and made his life much harder than if he had continued dating gorgeous young 'hard body' dancers in the Utah Ballet and RDT - which he had done up until he met and fell in love with 'skinny, little old me'.

I did notice that he treated those sons - and still does - as his own blood children (whom he adopted a year after we married) - no different than the one we bore together.

I have had each one of those three sons tell me in private - at different times in their young adulthood - "I have NEVER seen dad turn his head to look at another woman or seen his eyes drift to look at her breasts or derrière."

I'm sure heaven is tailor made for each of us. All of you who think heaven will constitute eternally 'checking out' the opposite sex - I wish you every happiness. May your enhancements follow you!

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

Talking about boob jobs is one thing but when you attach people to it or label people then you're bordering on being judgemental. The topic is young women's leaders and boob jobs. Why not just boob jobs in general (the sin not the sinner)? Why attach people to it? Most young women leaders don't have boob jobs anyway and the ones that do aren't to be judged by us. See the diff? Maybe we can also throw our imperfect mothers under the bus

[ChelCThe Law]

I'm not going to air out all the laundry here. I understand the perspective and agree that under most circumstances boob jobs are a waste of so many things, the least of which being money.

The point I wanted to make about Mom is that she has an amazing ability to accept people as they are without excusing sin. I don't want a woman to openly teach my (make believe) daughters that they need plastic surgery. Is that happening? I think if it is the person should be removed, but I haven't heard of that happening. I don't believe having a boob job disqualifies a person from teaching our young women. I don't think it should. I want my kids to know that people are imperfect and that isn't a reason to disengage.

There is a huge difference between saying "People shouldn't have boob jobs" and "People shouldn't be put in YW if they've had a boob job."

And yes, I got defensive about Mom because I felt like she was being disrespected here, but I also thought that she'd taught us better than to not mingle with the unclean which is the impression I got here.

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Sure don't want to 'judge' any woman for stuffing extra filling into her bra, if that's what she honestly feels is best for her life and the life of her marriage, but I did have the occasion to visit an LDS ward in Montana awhile ago and had a rather unsettling experience.

In order not to be isolated while my friend worked in Primary I was introduced to a matronly woman with whom I could sit in RS & SS. She was well into her 40's, a bit overweight, and plain faced as are many good middle-aged ladies. However, she was extremely 'removed' emotionally. She sat next to me like a statue; her attention very much turned inward. She didn't ask me a single thing about myself or introduce me in either class.

As I sat in SS I noticed a young married woman in the front row who had the exact demeanor as the lady to whom I was introduced as my Sunday hostess. I was fascinated. How could two women of very different ages and with no apparent relationship have the exact expression and self-absorbtion. I began to imagine there was some medication common to both.

After church I asked my friend about them. She was a little surprised that I had drawn a commonality between the two. She knew them well enough to know that they had both 'elected' to have breast augmentation - each contrary to her husband's wishes.

My friend also questions the message we send our young women when the older women of the Church feel they must tinker with their physical bodies in order to be more 'perfect'.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

That's really funny Shadow. If I would have just said women shouldn't get a boob job you would have said I was singling out "women." If you don't consider "Young women's leaders" a generalization what the heck do you? And I didn't infer that all nor a majority had them either so if that was your inference, it was yours and yours alone. It wasn't even our generalization, it came from an email from a relative down in Utah (which I believe the first post stated), she specified young women's leaders, we simply wondered aloud here if there was a connection, which obviously hits too close to home for your taste and thus became personal for you, thus bitter as we've become unfortunately accustomed to. And we're not alone by any stretch, a lot of posters are bailing on the site for just this issue (the overly critical supposed non-judger coddlers) and yes they have specifically told us that.

Even remarking that my own mother has them (something I only know because Chel ranted and raved about them to me in a negative way, because I wouldn't even notice (even if she did start dressing differently), and Chel herself condemns her for it right here in this thread specifically and laments that she can no longer be the role model she could have been, which were her words not mine), addressing her isn't specific, solely because no one here knows her except Chel. If they did I wouldn't mention it. I understand her feeling protective of our mother here, but she should understand me not feeling that way because it's not personal, and I would expect her to stand accountable for her choices just as I do mine even if it were. She certainly holds me to that standard!!!

I don't know why Chel makes this a judgement of my mom, it isn't, and it certainly hasn't been me doing so. She makes a mean grilled cheese, but what does that have to do with her fake boobs? The discussion should have never involved her except to point out that I understand it on a personal level regarding someone I know well. If I would have known Chel would freak out and make it personal and get all sideways I wouldn't have stated who in my family had them, but to me it didn't matter because the only ones here that know who she is, already have had the discussion. Chalk it up to hormones and drugs I guess? You jumped down my back not the other way around...

Of course if nobody knows the young women's leader has them then there's no issue, no public interest in them (offend in secret rebuke in secret, offend openly, rebuke openly. Which applies to more than one subject here!). But when they make it common, public knowledge or if they are touted, or bragged about or shown off, then to me it is just like (only much worse than) a leader ordering a coffee on the way to girls camp or worse yet extolling how good it is, and that leader should unequivocally be removed from her place. I don't care which heaven people choose except that I want the best for them all, but when it becomes public, then it's a public matter with public accountability.

I honestly lament what we clearly have become.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

For the record this is all we said:

I can look at Pitch's mom and know that she was in error, but that doesn't mean that I know where she's going in the next life, or her worth.

and this is what you said:

3. My Mom was mentioned here as having some work done for the wrong reasons. I agree that she didn't need them and I wish she hadn't gotten them. She was and is beautiful and she could have stood as a strong example to her grand daughters one day. That's a missed opportunity

Can you really justify your jumping down our back here by whatever difference you find between our two statements? Really?

[ChelCThe Law]

Yep, I did rant and rave about her getting them, to my brother, in private. I've been critical of many of her decisions publicly as well in the past. I am ashamed that I did so publicly.

When I was young, my parents were the end all be all. They seemed to always have the right answers. As I grew up I started questioning many of their choices. When I had my own children - boy did I ever question. I was mad that they'd made decisions I wouldn't dream of making.

As I mentioned earlier, I've made an effort to see people more in the way Christ does, and honest to goodness, more often than not I've found respect for people I used to feel a lot of resentment toward. Sometimes I've found pity, and in all cases I've lamented how we can never seem to embrace or accept our own strength, beauty and eternal worth.

It's okay to recognize mistakes. It's okay speak your mind about certain matters publicly. I think we could stand to talk about many things more than we do. We don't need to cite specific people.

Honestly when I read the first post I cringed and maybe that caused me to read the whole thing askew. I thought, "We'll never see them again." I believe you are so convinced Utah is Babylon that you overlook that it can also be and is simultaneously, Zion. I'm afraid that you are viewing things from snippets you get and it's unfair.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My wife wanted to have a boob job, she felt she was to large. I didn't agree--

Bob

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

So now that you have charity Chel, you don't have charity for people that are like you were before you became possessed of it by your assessment? Is that really your position?

[ChelCThe Law]

I didn't claim to be filled with charity, only that I've gained insights I didn't have before which have changes my perspective a bit. I'm still just as prone to judgmentalism as I ever was. No need to call me out as being a sinner. Guilty as charged.