Young Women's leaders and boob jobs-a thesis

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

So in talking to my sister-in-law (my brothers wife) about our lives, she informed me that it's really bad down here and how many poeple in Utah, LDS people mind you, were getting boob jobs. What strikes me is how many of the poeple we have heard about did so while serving in Young Womens as leaders. What is it about these young women that we are so envious of, not their innocence and purity, but their boobs. What have we become? What has become of the daughters of Zion?

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

So in talking to my sister-in-law (my brothers wife) about our lives, she informed me that it's really bad down here and how many poeple in Utah, LDS people mind you, were getting boob jobs. What strikes me is how many of the poeple we have heard about did so while serving in Young Womens as leaders. What is it about these young women that we are so envious of, not their innocence and purity, but their boobs. What have we become? What has become of the daughters of Zion?

My wife and I have had the same discussion - not necessarily with regard to YW leaders, but in regards to the LDS and the vanity. Giving in to Babylon. I don't condemn everyone for doing it, but I think it definitely gives testimony of what their own hearts are set on. It's sad that so many care so much about what others think of them...although I think many think less of them for doing so. I know two of my wife's friends (active LDS) that have had them done....one just two weeks prior to marrying...in the temple. I haven't heard the prophet speak directly to this...perhaps I missed it. It surprises me we haven't heard more on this. I recall Pres. Hinckley speaking with regards to piercings and tattoos. This should fit right in with that. YW leaders that have this done are clearly not setting a humble example.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

I understand that plastic surgery is HUGE thriving business along the Wasatch front in Utah. Hadn't heard that this extended to Young Women though... sad, IMO.

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

I understand that plastic surgery is HUGE thriving business along the Wasatch front in Utah. Hadn't heard that this extended to Young Women though... sad, IMO.

I personally know a plastic surgeon (lds) that performs Lyposuction and other image changing procedures that relocated from Washington to Utah for that reason - it was booming - this was about 3 years ago. I recall recently reading that SLC made the top 10 for vain places in the USA (most plastic surgery). I agree, very sad that people can't look within themselves and within others to find beauty.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

As a member who has had this procedure, I just wanted to say a few things. I do not recommend this procedure at all, although I had it recommended to me by other women who said they loved it and how much difference it's made in their marriage. When I went for a consult I was even shown a video that depicted happiness and studies that showed that how women who had bigger breast were treated better by society etc. etc. And I suppose I fell for the lie. My reasons for doing it may different than other women I suppose, I think there are many reasons women may choose to have it done. I guess sometimes it can be hard to feel of worth when you've had 5 children and anything you had there is gone and your husband is looking at other womens chests in magazines or on the internet. I thought the procedure would make me feel better about myself but only really made me feel worse. I do have to say though that my size is very natural and not to the extreme at all but I constantly feel very badly about the $ that was spent on it and what else could have been done with that money as well. I should have used that for family or service rather than on myself because as I've come to learn, true happiness comes from extending outward and what we can do for others and learning to love ourselves and others unconditionally.

As far as people in the church having it done, I agree that it's not the best thing but also that we don't need to judge others for choosing that. I know there are many women who have had it done and no one would even know it so I don't know that the Young Women would even know whether or not their leaders have had one. I also have to admit that there was one woman in my ward who I thought had one and I judged the situation because I thought they were way too big for her body size and I came to find out that they were completely natural. So I guess what I'm trying to say is that we would all bode better if we learn to love unconditionally and not try to finger point as to who is living in Babylon. We just need to do the best we can to purify our hearts and try to pull ourselves out. Sorry I hope what I'm trying to say makes sense.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

I have to say a few things. First off I don't advocate judging individuals without having the facts and never to final judgement. I can look at Pitch's mom and know that she was in error, but that doesn't mean that I know where she's going in the next life, or her worth. But she was wrong and honestly I think that it's always wrong to get a boob job with the exception perhaps of cancer victims etc... But it's wrong on the same level as any immodest practice and doesn't make you a bad person just a person who's not perfect like the rest of us. But as you concede it was wrong.

I also would like to point out a flaw in your personal logic and I really hope that you're not offended by it. You said:

I guess sometimes it can be hard to feel of worth when you've had 5 children and anything you had there is gone and your husband is looking at other womens chests in magazines or on the internet.

Obviously I fault your husband for making you feel anything less than beautiful and loved, and for lusting after other women, but I think that you are falling for the lie that beauty and companionship/desire/love are synonymous. And you acted on that basis by trying to compete in an area that is not exclusive to celestial covenant love (beauty). Can you love an ugly person/child as much as a pretty one? Your actions affirm that no, you cannot love them as much and that desire is based on beauty alone.

Should your husband think that you are the most beautiful in pure physical terms when you are 99 and you don't have any hair or teeth and not see the beauty in feminine youth around him? I don't think so. That's silly.

You should never have to compete with youth/beauty in your relationship (since it's something different entirely), and in fact we wives cannot. But then neither can our husbands.

I think he should love you sooo much and sooo deeply that your attraction comes from inside and not outside and is so multi-faceted and deep as to make beauty but a trifle (as it is). I also think that your husband should acknowledge beauty as such without lusting after it and trying to attach himself to it. And in fact Pitch and I are at a point in our relationship where we can point out beauty to each other without getting offended or feeling competition. We acknowledge that seeing somebody as beautiful does not make them a candidate for personal interaction any more than someone who drives good or juggles good or is tall, or short, or anything else that we might admire.

The danger is in the sexual association or personal attachment to it. Your husband can see a phenomenally beautiful woman and not want to associate himself with her in any way, nor create any attachment to her nor dwell on her form and that's good and right and proper and beauty should be acknowledged for what it is. After all it is the work of God's hands.

Obviously he has failed in that regard, perhaps you can educate him. We hope so. It will make all the difference in your happiness. Good luck.

[gkearneycaptain of 100]

There is that much excess money in the economy in Utah! I know that here in Australia no insurance, either the national health cover or private suplimentary will cover anything but such required for reconstructive needs such as in cancer. I assume, perhaps I'm wrong in doing so that the same is true in the US.

[katmrcaptain of 100]

Thank you for your reply. Actually, no I am not at all offended by anything you had to say and yes, it's like I said. I fell for the lie. To be perfectly honest I've fallen for many more. I've made many many mistakes in my life, fallen for many lies and made many errors in judgement and to my husbands defense I too have made terrible mistakes in my marriage. But the important thing to Heavenly Father is that we are both working through those and we are working together. My husband is an amazing person and he has since turned away from those things and we are both extremely happy. I honestly don't know where I will be going when the judgement comes but I know that Gods judgements are just. We are both striving to have a celestial marriage and I think that is what God looks at right now. I don't believe he dwells on our past mistakes but looks at where our hearts are now and what we are striving for. I know I am so far from perfect that it's not even funny but I desire to keep trying and to try to become the person that God wants me to be. That's all I can do.

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

I don't think there are many YW leaders who get "modifications". I think that's an over generalization regarding the members in Utah. I personally only know 3 women who have been "modified". One felt remorse afterwards and repented. Years later she was called as YW's president. The two others are half-way inactive, they were that way in the first place. However, all three of them are very kind and generous to others, certainly more charitable than most people, probably including many that opine here. Lest we forget it's charity that covereth a multitude of sins.
My wife has served many, many years in the YW's program including serving as president and she isn't aware of one person who got a boob while serving, let alone while not serving. Yes, the saints in Utah are horrible....

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

I appreciate your candid honesty. I don't think your situation is our business but hope that discussing it helps.

Any mother who breastfeeds multiple children will at some point have to deal with the question. Our hope is that they and their husbands will see it in the proper light and see past the "youthful lusts." As our society is so overtly pornographic, we both had to figure it out, as we went, doing our best and marveling at the trust God placed in us and wondering why. Well now we know why and would point others to take that evident trust as the loving trust it is from God who sees the end and knows what it will be. Sometimes, oftentimes He is reassuring us and we wont have any of it having acute memories of our wrong doing. We need to let go of all that once we repent and set things right and trust Him when He seeks to reassure us about our destinies.

I think you fall into this category and trust that you have had such reassurances and that you will listen to them for what they are with gratitude. We're stronger than we give ourselves credit for. We just live in a sucky world!

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

The saints in AK are too, turns out we all suck. Who knew? It's just that there are like 5 saints in AK so we can't make generalizations about a non-existent population.

We weren't making it a Utah point except that the church is clustered there and we have been told it is rampant by a few people.

But since you brought it up there is a reason that BYU admits faithful members from branches here more than from Utah. They actually assign points based upon how much more difficult it is to be a "good member" than in Utah we had 20 young men in my childhood ward and none of them could pass the sacrament (as opposed to here where we only have 2 but their both worthy).

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

I think Katmr and Shadow both made some great points. #1 we should not judge...leave that to a bishop/stake president to decide if the person should receive a calling (really God decides and inspires). #2 Katmr showed a perfect example of why we are all here - to learn. Luckily for us we can repent. I don't think it is a grave sin. And hopefully it wasn't taken that way. Kudos to Katmr for not being offended. I think the underlying thing here is that it is sad that we have to live in a world that is evil and we sometimes see member that are conforming to worldly things. But we can never be sure of their reasons for doing something. (and we are most likely all guilty of this to some extent or another) Also a good point in that maybe they just have big boobs. I personally responded to the post because of my wife's friend that just had them done. I shouldn't judge to begin with and I am guilty. Sometimes it is easier for someone to recognize something isn't in line with God's teachings and hopefully we aren't judging that person that is not doing things in accordance to such. But we can recognize that there are things we shouldn't do and refrain from doing them. I don't think I judged my wife's friend harshly - we are all still good friends and spend time together. I guess for me it was sad that she felt she needed to do it to feel pretty. I mean in this case she was engaged and married two weeks later. We also know that her husband really wanted this done. I feel for her. What happens when the first couple of years of their marriage are over and he is no longer satisfied with how she looks? It may leave him looking outside of his marriage to satify his craving. Hopefully that won't be the case, but it all to often is.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

Actually I think we can judge the sin but not the sinner and I have a pretty good track record on the list of vane things.

I'm not a big fan of make-up or any of the foolish traditions that make the righteous stand out like sore thumbs.

But for the record how do we choose our friends wisely if we can't judge?

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

As a side note, I find it interesting that there are those who criticize decisions to have cosmetic surgery, but nobody seems to criticize breast REDUCTIONS, or spending thousands of dollars on orthodontics for cosmetically beautiful teeth, or having a huge ugly mole removed from the middle of someone's face, or when women have facial hair removed, or other smaller things we (both men and women) do every day in the name of vanity, like teeth whitening procedures, shaving, acrylic nails, hair coloring.... etc... etc... etc...

Excellent point. There are hundreds of ways to be vain. I agree with this completely. That's why I said I was guilty of it and that most of us are in one way or another. I think the breast implants is at the top of the list because it is more associated with a sexual significance. But you make a great point. Look at all the riches we have been given and the pointless things we waste it on! Not just on our appearance, but many vain worldly things to make us happy.

[Nancaptain of 1,000]

The ones I know who are LDS and got new boobs did it because their husbands asked them too. I think if you did a study of the rise in pornography and the rise in plastic surgery you might find a match.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

The ones I know who are LDS and got new boobs did it because their husbands asked them too. I think if you did a study of the rise in pornography and the rise in plastic surgery you might find a match.

Not sure about that. Saw a picture of an LDS girl (on a site that is negative to the Church) who was in porn for a couple of years and she seemed pretty average in reference to breasts.

Not saying social nudism is in anyway pornographic but I wonder what the rate of breast jobs is for nudists? Bet it is considerably lower than the average.

Yes, porn probably has some influence -- after all, the popularity of men and women removing all their body hair has been linked to the popularity of porn with both genders. However, to say that porn is what is making people consider plastic surgery is perhaps a bit overgeneralized. I am not about to condemn a woman who has breast fed seven kids if she wants to get her original look back. I will also not condemn her husband for getting his wrinkles lasered off or dye his hair so he looks more youthful for future job promotions.

[friendsofthecaptain of 100]

Might this apply?

16 Moreover, the Lord saith: Because the daughters of Zion are haughty, and walk with stretched-forth necks and wanton eyes, walking and mincing as they go, and making a tinkling with their feet—
17 Therefore the Lord will smite with a scab the crown of the head of the daughters of Zion, and the Lord will discover their secret parts.
18 In that day the Lord will take away the bravery of their tinkling ornaments, and cauls, and round tires like the moon;
19 The chains and the bracelets, and the mufflers;
20 The bonnets, and the ornaments of the legs, and the headbands, and the tablets, and the ear-rings;
21 The rings, and nose jewels;
22 The changeable suits of apparel, and the mantles, and the wimples, and the crisping-pins;
23 The glasses, and the fine linen, and hoods, and the veils.
24 And it shall come to pass, instead of sweet smell there shall be stink; and instead of a girdle, a rent; and instead of well set hair, baldness; and instead of a stomacher, a girding of sackcloth; burning instead of beauty.
2 Nephi 13

[katmrcaptain of 100]

Actually I think we can judge the sin but not the sinner and I have a pretty good track record on the list of vane things.

I'm not a big fan of make-up or any of the foolish traditions that make the righteous stand out like sore thumbs.

But for the record how do we choose our friends wisely if we can't judge?

Yes, I agree we can judge the sin and not the sinner and we are also to use righteous judgement but some times it seems that some people seem to forget that we are all sinners before God. No matter how righteous one is, we all still have room for repentance and improvement. I think Jules brought out some good points and their are myriads of ways that we can show vanity. I think it would do us better to focus on the ways that each of us can humble ourselves more and look at the ways we may be showing vanity rather than think that so and so is so vain because they had such and such done or so and so belongs to Babylon and deserves to be cleansed. It is so easy to look at someone and place judgement and criticize or try to categorize who is in Babylon and who is not. I truly have so much I need to change about myself that it is overwhelming but I can just testify that I have experienced the complete and cleansing power of the atonement, I know the depths the Savior went to for me in a way that most members of the church won't experience. If the Lord loved me that much, how much love he has for all of his children has really has changed my view on things. I will try to never judge a person or a situation. That is not my right. My job is to love and live the gospel to the best of my ability and if God needs to cleanse me off the earth before his coming, it will still be a wonderful day when our Savior and my Savior will come and reign in righteousness. I think that's something we all look forward to. As far as makeup goes I remember a quote and I'm probably ruining it but I believe it was from one of the prophets or apostles, but forgive me if I'm wrong. It went something like "even an old barn looks better with a fresh coat of paint." I don't believe make-up is a terrible thing when used in moderation but I do think before the Lord comes we will not have access to make-up like we have and that looks will be "brought low" as Isaiah describes.

[Lady Believercaptain of 100]

I think people should avoid judging others on this. Everyone has their own reasons for doing these things, or not doing these things. The Lord judges people's hearts, thankfully, and none of you are the Lord.

I've been an electrologist for 20 years. I could tell you about the self confidence many women get after having unsightly hairs removed from their faces--or stomachs, or wherever and whatever. But then, some of you would say they sinned in spending money they should have used for something else or for being too vain. I feel like I've served many women and improved their lives. I don't feel like I've sinned. So where do you draw the line, as Jules pointed out--braces, make up, curling hair, exercising for vain reasons?

Some women have extreme issues with confidence that causes problems with intimacy. What right do any of you have to judge others when you don't know what's in their hearts?

Please don't choose to be any man's accuser. Just choose your own way. That's all I can say.

[AGalagaChiasmuscaptain of 100]

Wow, this really is a Utah issue. Not to make light of it, but I'm with the others in observing that outside of Utah, boob jobs are universally frowned upon in the Church, placed up there with tattoos and nose piercings.

I wonder though if a boob job has real repercussions in the private sector. If your job is in fashion, etc., would it be justified? Is there real discrimination if you don't, as in you couldn't feed yourself/kids without it? Would it be time to switch careers? A relative of mine is a dental hygienist and she claims very vehemently that there is strong age discrimination in that profession. Something about middle aged dentists wanting to surround themselves with 20-somethings spring chicks. So she got laser surfacing done to her face and neck and after the swelling and recovery, it really did take a decade off her face. She is still gainfully employed with over 40 years of RDH experience. Is something we would do as an elective for "vanity" different than if the same thing is done for livelihood? What if it's a little of both...

[AGalagaChiasmuscaptain of 100]

Here's a quote my wife shared:

"Just as a mother's body may be permanently marked with the signs of pregnancy and childbirth, [the savior] said, 'I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands' (1 Nephi 21: 15-16). For both a mother and the Savior, those marks memorialize a wrenching sacrifice--the sacrifice of begetting life--for her, physical birth; for him, spiritual rebirth." by Bruce C. Hafen

[gkearneycaptain of 100]

Wow, this really is a Utah issue. Not to make light of it, but I'm with the others in observing that outside of Utah, boob jobs are universally frowned upon in the Church, placed up there with tattoos and nose piercings.

Universally frowned upon? I don't think we can say that. I have heard nothing about this topic one way or the other in church here. I really doubt my bishop is going about asking the sisters in our ward if they have had a boob job or not and I can only imagine the response if he did so.

[Fiannancaptain of 1,000]

It has been shown over and over again that attractive people get more promotions at work, are trusted more and get more pay raises. Sometimes elective surgery can be an investment.

[MahonriMaster]

this was an issue in every state I have lived in, NOT just UT.

the yw leaders are often (in the wards I have been in) as mature or less than the kids they are in charhe of.

one of over a dozen reasons my kids aren't in any of those programs

[Still Learningcaptain of 100]

It has been shown over and over again that attractive people get more promotions at work, are trusted more and get more pay raises. Sometimes elective surgery can be an investment.

An investment into what? The riches of the world that we can't take with us? I think this is true, but to what avail? I will gladly take my lower pay and smaller boobs if that is the only reason I get a raise!

[jskcaptain of 100]

While I have learned a lot from reading the LDS Freedom Forum, there are a lot of threads that just floor me....this is one of them. My wife has had three children and has the body of a typical 42 year old woman. I love her just the ways she is and find her very attractive and sexy...I think she feels the same about me (at least she tells me so), even though I have put on weight and gotten grayer over the years. I really wouldn't want her to get a boob job or any type of plastic surgery. But if she wanted to, why in the world should anybody care??? And to say this should disqualify a woman from serving in the YW Organization??? Really??? I will never understand why it is so difficult to have a live and let live attitude about some of these things that just really don't matter. Is it impossible for people who get plastic surgery to believe in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ??? Maybe this was covered in Gospel Doctrine one week when I was absent...

I was born with ears that stuck way out...it is an inherited characteristic from my father's family. I will be eternally grateful to my parents for making the financial sacrifice to pay for the plastic surgery to correct this before I got into elementary school...I'm sure it saved me a lot of grief growing up.

And Mahonri...are you saying that you don't permit your children to participate in the programs of the Church? The same programs that are endorsed and approved by the First Presidency? Why would you do this? Is it because you have reached the stunning conclusion that the YW and YM leaders in your Ward aren't perfect? Don't forget these individuals were (presumably) called to these positions by revelation to serve the children of your Ward....which would include your children. If you are looking for a church full of perfect people, you certainly won't find it at any LDS Ward I've ever been in. But that is the beauty of it...we are supposed to be working on building one another up....that won't work if we don't fellowship one another and participate in the programs of the Church.

Vent over....

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I kinda agree with jsk. There are legitimate reasons to get plastic surgery, and who are we to judge another persons reasons? For myself and my house, I'm against it. Personally, I am WAY overweight, and could probably use some liposuction or a lap band or gastro bypass surgery. My boss's boss is a bishop and he just had it and almost died, but he says it was worth it (went from 350 to about 210 I'd guess). Sure in his case and mine there are health issues involved, personally I have always felt if I am going to lose weight I will do it the old fashioned way - diet and exercise. But again what someone else does, and whether they do it for vanity, health reasons, feel it will help their career or marriage - it's none of my business! Same with tanning salons! It's all vanity and a health risk and stupid in my opinion - but something to post about on LDSFF (oops, I just did) but seriously, folks.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

So where do you draw the line, as Jules pointed out--braces, make up, curling hair, exercising for vain reasons?

Vanity is wrong so if it's vanity then it's wrong. Did I miss something?

Getting a wayward hair removed is different than vanity in that Adam and Eve were to dress the garden not replant it to suit their fancy. Everything requires pruning, fingernails biting or clipping, hair trimmed, etc... But that's different than vanity. Vanity has different motivations than simple modesty (which actually requires grooming). It's not hard to know which is right and which is wrong if you're
busy listening and not asserting.

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

Have to say I'm completely shocked at the responses here. I guess we really aren't any different than the world, just a little more self loathing, a little poorer, a little busier, and little more depressed.

The prophet says two sets of earrings are wrong and we don't dispute it, but cutting open our bodies to shove in bags of silicone so our boobs look better is in dispute? For shame!

[gkearneycaptain of 100]

this was an issue in every state I have lived in, NOT just UT.

the yw leaders are often (in the wards I have been in) as mature or less than the kids they are in charhe of.

one of over a dozen reasons my kids aren't in any of those programs

Are you saying that you do not let your children take part in the Church young men's and young women's programs? Did I hear you right?