Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

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Zkulptor
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Zkulptor »

linj2fly wrote:My visiting teachers were here and we were talking about Charity. Somehow the discussion veered off to plural marriage and the way non-members judge us based on polygamy. I couldn't help thinking about the similarity of others judging us through the lens of polygamy, and non-muslims judging muslims through the lens of jihad. Both tenets are widely misunderstood by outsiders (and some insiders, too). Because of this, so much is missed or dismissed about each religion. Further, there is nothing that irritates me more and baffles me at the same time as a non-Mormon adamantly telling me what I believe. To tell someone what they believe is one of the most preposterous and arrogant things a person could do, IMO. What's worse is when they quote from my scriptures to tell me what I believe, often cherry picking those things to bolster their position. It is sometimes laughable b/c it's so apparent they have no context or understanding about what they are quoting. What do we tell people when they don't understand? Read the Book of Mormon.

As a result of experiences like this, I'm more than willing to give Muslims the benefit of the doubt when I hear people (usually non-Muslims, and sometimes ex-Muslims) quoting select verses from the Qu'ran to prove that they are a violent religion. I wonder how many of Islam's critics have actually read the Qu'ran completely. It's online, you know. Just like our scriptures.

It is true that, politically, they have violent past (and present, among extremists). News Flash: WE ALL DO. Western history (past and current) is replete with violent coercion. "God Wills it" makes it even worse. So the Muslims had what Westerners call 'holy wars'. So did we. In fact, I can't think of anything holier than holy-war killing among the children of Abraham. Weren't the crusades great? The children of Joseph fighting the children of Ishmael over the the land of the children of Judah? Can't get any better than that---for Satan. :ymdevil:

The end result for Heavenly Father is to GATHER his children back home to Him. He promotes GATHERING by teaching us and commanding us to have CHARITY. Satan's plan is obviously completely the opposite. His goal is to DIVIDE us. He does this with many tools, such as ENMITY, PRIDE, CONTENTIONS, and finally consummating in WAR, one of the most efficient ways to end the mortal probation, the time to prepare to meet God, for the greatest amount of people in a relatively short about of time.

If the whole point is to bring all of God's children to the light of His Gospel, and eventually home to him, how do we go about getting along with other peoples, who are, in the end, are our literal brothers and sisters? How about an approach of charity? With charity, we would not view Muslims through the lens of a jihad political past and extremist jihad today, but we would see that there really is so much more to their history and religion. I, personally, feel a connection with them, since we are both, in fact, praying to the God of Abraham. I like the idea of the 'higher jihad' which is the 'struggle against the evil inclinations of the soul.' I like the translation of Islam, which means to 'surrender to God.' That's a struggle for me everyday, so I really identify with these ideas. This is a commonality that we all have. I like their focus on family, and I practice some of their other pillars: faith, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. Sure there are plenty of differences between them and myself, but I don't think focusing on them lends to the idea of GATHERING.
Another great post!

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paper face
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

I was answering a response paperface, not reciting the entire history of the Religion of Islam. I would hope that anyone who studies history does not ignore those things we are ashamed of. This is how the past is repeated. We must learn from it and become better persons, as did Alma.

That link is apparently all you cared to share on the subject of Islam. I don't think it's much of a response to the OP, which not only addresses the concept of Jihad, but identifies it as a much more complex issue than your link would have us think. Explain to me how this is Christlike or even Moroni-like.

Bad idea paperface. Why would you want to do such an evil thing? :-o

I don't need to. Bush already did, and we supported him.

If you ignore evil you allow it to spread. So let’s not bring up the millions of Jews, Christians, Buddhists, Hindus, etc. killed in Jihads. Forget about all the women raped in regions where sharia law is practiced, are punished for coming forward then are accused as adulterers and receive a beating or stoning. Who cares about women being treated as possessions. Ignore the girls killed by family members because they insulted their family’s honor. Who cares if you apostatize from Islam you could get a death sentence.

Very noble of you to bring up the abuses of women and children as some sort of justification to focus on Islam. As if the culture of rape and prostitution and child enslavement to such were centralized to Islam. Why in the world aren't we invading Indonesia and Thailand? Why aren't we going to save those women and children from the types of abuses you discuss? Because American interests are served by policing and coercing the Middle East.

The truth is that this world is saturated in rape, prostitution and child abuse. To focus on such abuses that exist in the culture of Islam is like getting shot ten times by ten people and only holding one of them accountable. It is a pathetic justification of our demonization of Islam, much less our invasions and foreign policy.

It is not up to us to change the Muslim customs, religion, or sharia laws. That should be the responsibility of all the good Muslims of the world. It is they who should take back their religion from the violent radicals.

I agree. Until then, why only present them as war-like?

In our wards, when we seek to teach our youths, do we harp on their failings and weaknesses? Or do we instead emphasize their strengths and qualities? In fact, on the public stage, we DO IGNORE their failings because we have high hopes that they will rise above them. We acknowledge their good deeds and express our FAITH that they will bear more good fruits.

OK paperface I’ll try and forgive the radical Muslims who stoned a woman to death because she was raped and had the temerity to come forward even though she did not have the 4 male witnesses required by sharia law.

In fact, you are COMMANDED to forgive them. Why? Because they don't understand what they are doing. They don't understand that all are sacred, and that what they have perpetrated is also against their God. If you honor your grudge over Christ's words, you become Judas.

This you have done is made abundantly clear by your ignorance paperface. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it. This country IS repeating history because it is not taught in our LDG run schools and colleges.

If you want to teach people about the history of Jihad, then you may as well teach them about the history of the signs exchanged by the ancient secret combinations. You are delivering them to the same doom. The technique of hate can only result in more of the same.

Truth is found in many places paperface. It is like gold nuggets. You have to do some digging to find it. Be careful of fools gold, it is found is more easier places and won’t buy you much.

There is no fools gold in the words of Christ. Period.

I love the Title of Liberty because Moroni tells us those things worth dying for “In memory of our God, our religion, and freedom, and our peace, our wives, and our children”. I don’t see country nor president nor politicians on the list. The “fanatics of national pride” you mention paperface will be the ones who will save the Constituion while the America haters will sit back and watch this country fall with glee. Either that or help it out by joining with the Marxists at OWS events.

There is no glee in watching this country perish for me, but that death is the fact at hand. When gay marriage is legalized through the land, then this country will no longer be the USA that you are "willing to die for". It will be something else, something profane, and it will not be saved as you say. Christ will not uphold the United States. He will replace it with his kingdom and his law. The United States is not going to be "saved".

Do you want to die for something worthwhile? Give your life to the souls of your fellow men. Bring them to the Gospel through the fruits of the Spirit. Love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance. The history of jihad is not contained in these. Why? Because it is beside the point.

Who were the kingmen paperface? They wanted to supplant their republican form of government with that of tyranny. Isn’t that the same thing going on today here with the OWS movement?

No. Not remotely. What "tyrant" do they want to put in? Are you trying to tell me that you have gleaned a clear message from OWS? These people that you speak of are dominantly priced out of health care and home ownership. They want to belong to this country, but there is no belonging if you can't afford medical help or a home. So they are, in fact, forming a national tribe that gives them the belonging that they seek.

Has there been any indication that they have asked for a sovereign? If so, then who?

Do you somehow not understand the history of revolt? When the middle class disappears, the lower and upper classes kill each other. That's what happened in France, India, et al, and that's what is happening now. No health care and homes for hundreds of millions = no future. They are tired of being slaves to corporate interests, and they are forming a tribe that will eventually overrun this land.

Hey we agree on something, paperface. ALL history should be taken into context.

Yes, the holistic approach. Good. So I hope that means you will be presenting history that way in the future.

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Oldemandalton
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Oldemandalton »

Paperface, why are you so contentious in your posts. I stand on the eternal principles of learning from our past mistakes and repenting of them as individuals and as societies. When I denounce rape and murder in the name of God and honor, you defend and rationalize it. I am sure the good Muslims worldwide who do not practice these despicable practices would also agree with me. I say to love Muslims we meet, befriend them and share the gospel with them. Did you skip that through your hate filled rants? I also said it was up to the good people of the Islamic faith to rid their own religion of the radicals in their midst not us. All we can do is be examples of Christ and hope they see our good works and examples, which I said several times.

I have never defended our invasions and foreign policy as you suggest. Your contentious attitude has blinded you to what my intent was. Opposing radical Islam’s terrorism and violence does not equate forcing them to our Christian/Judaic code of conduct or an invasion of their countries. Our invasions were concocted by the LDGs in our midst as is our corrupt foreign policy, going back for a century or more.

The spirit of contention is in your posts paperface. Please read my posts again. I never accused the whole of Islam with violent jihad or rape and murder. These are the acts of the wicked elements in their religion in the past and present. It is the Muslims themselves who must purge themselves of these Mullahs and Imams who teach these practices. Again for the 4th time, it is not up to us, it is their problem. All we can do is as Capitan Moroni implored the Nephites to do; defend our God, our religion, our freedoms, peace, and our families. I’ll repeat, since in your contentious attitude you missed this part again, that Moroni does not mention defending a corrupt nation or leader in his list.

So if you want to be contentious and read intents and beliefs I don’t post or feel you may continue to argue with yourself or a straw man you constructed with Oldemandalton painted on its side. :)

3 Nephi 11:29, 30


Old Man Dalton

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paper face
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

Oldemandalton wrote:When I denounce rape and murder in the name of God and honor, you defend and rationalize it.
Wrong, friend. I simply don't see why you bring it up since it is being practiced world wide with or without sharia law. I also don't get why you roll your eyes at forgiving other human beings.
I also said it was up to the good people of the Islamic faith to rid their own religion of the radicals in their midst not us. All we can do is be examples of Christ and hope they see our good works and examples, which I said several times.
Your link doesn't help anyone see any examples or good works. It couches Islam in fanatic violence. Who exactly are you serving with it? Is it meant to instruct Mormons on what to expect from Muslims? I perused a few of the essays and the history there preaches foreboding stuff and doesn't leave much room for other versions of Islam.

The Muslims I know aren't saturated in that kind of ethos. They are trying to get by and survive this country, just like all my Christian friends.
I have never defended our invasions and foreign policy as you suggest.
I mentioned them as a related aside. I apologize if you thought I was attributing them to you, not what I meant.
The spirit of contention is in your posts paperface. Please read my posts again. I never accused the whole of Islam with violent jihad or rape and murder.
I re-read them. You give moderate Muslims the benefit of the doubt in one breath, then post that Islam-watch link with another. I guess I felt that the link was your Islam end game. I don't think it is helpful.

I didn't see where you said to love, befriend, and share the Gospel with them.
I’ll repeat, since in your contentious attitude...
Your ad hominem is getting old. Stick to the subject. I have no anger or hate for you.
3 Nephi 11:29, 30
You have a smiley face at the end of your post, but I have a feeling that it is you who is angry, OMD. Hence your sarcasm at forgiving radical Islam and those who live by sharia law. But I will respect your wish to disengage.

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paper face
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by paper face »

linj2fly wrote:If the whole point is to bring all of God's children to the light of His Gospel, and eventually home to him, how do we go about getting along with other peoples, who are, in the end, are our literal brothers and sisters? How about an approach of charity? With charity, we would not view Muslims through the lens of a jihad political past and extremist jihad today, but we would see that there really is so much more to their history and religion. I, personally, feel a connection with them, since we are both, in fact, praying to the God of Abraham. I like the idea of the 'higher jihad' which is the 'struggle against the evil inclinations of the soul.' I like the translation of Islam, which means to 'surrender to God.' That's a struggle for me everyday, so I really identify with these ideas. This is a commonality that we all have. I like their focus on family, and I practice some of their other pillars: faith, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. Sure there are plenty of differences between them and myself, but I don't think focusing on them lends to the idea of GATHERING.
Agree wholeheartedly.

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Book of Ruth
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Book of Ruth »

I just have to add my two cents here:

Muhammed- born 570 AD, married wealth Roman Catholic Woman Khadija. They had four daughter one of which was named Fatima. Sound familiar? Yep, the Lady of Fatima who appeared in Fatima Portugal to 3 catholic children. Whom gave the 3 prophecies, 2 have been made public, the last one held by the pope, regarding the last world war.

Muhammed left for Middle East after the death of his wife very wealthy. Then we have the the start of Islam. Funded by the Roman Catholic's. Illumianti!!!

These two groups alone, catholics and muslims are approx. 4 billion people. There are only 6 billion on the earth. They are being highly controled, and the Middle Eastern Anti-Christ and the Roman False Prophet have some pretty strong ties.

570 AD + 1260 spoken of by Daniel= 1830 Coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Very few people know of this connection, but it's no coincidence. We must preach the gospel to ALL the world.

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

My responses are in blue
Book of Ruth wrote:I just have to add my two cents here:

Muhammed- born 570 AD, married wealth Roman Catholic Woman Khadija.

According to Muslim tradition:

Khadija was a wealthy (trades-woman) widow who was not polytheistic. It is not known for sure what her religion was in pre-islamic Arabia. There were three (minorities) monotheistic religions available at the time according to Dr. Daniel Peterson (http://rsc.byu.edu/pubDPetersonUnderstandingIslam.php): Christianity, Judaism, and Zoroastrianism. Khadija's uncle was christian.


They had four daughter one of which was named Fatima.

Mohammad and Khadija had a daughter named Fatimah (who married her father's cousin, Ali; this is the man which the minority sect, Shia, believes was Mohammad's rightful successor. However, Abu Bakr, succeeded Mohammad. This line of succession was/is supported by the Sunni's.)

Fatimah is a very popular muslim name. Khadija's mother's name was Fatimah as well.

Fatimah, Portugal: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ourém_Municipality#History
Under the Muslims, the village was apparently called Abdegas, but during the times of the Reconquista (12th century) it was called Portus de Auren, from which the name Ourém was later derived. According to popular myth, the name of the village is actually derived from a Moorish Princess who converted to Christianity under the name of Oureana.

The legend of the name of the village and Oureana is retold by Friar Bernardino de Brito in his Chronicle of the Order of Cister (1602): In a surprise attack on the St John's Day in 1158, a Christian knight, Gonçalo Hermigues and his companions kidnapped a Moorish princess with the famous Arab name of Fatima. The knight took Fatima to a small village of the recently-created Kingdom of Portugal, in the Serra de Aire hills. The princess fell in love with the Christian knight and decided to become herself a Christian, taking the name of Oureana. They got married and the princess received as prize the town which she called Ourém, after her name.
The name of the parish of Fátima of Ourém is probably related to this legend.


Sound familiar? Yep, the Lady of Fatima who appeared in Fatima Portugal to 3 catholic children. Whom gave the 3 prophecies, 2 have been made public, the last one held by the pope, regarding the last world war.
Our Lady of Fátima is a famous title given to the Blessed Virgin Mary as she appeared in apparitions reported by three shepherd children at Fátima in Portugal. These occurred on the 13th day of six consecutive months in 1917, starting on May 13. The three children were Lúcia dos Santos and her cousins Blessed Jacinta and Francisco Marto.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_of_Fatima

Muhammed left for Middle East after the death of his wife very wealthy. Then we have the the start of Islam. Funded by the Roman Catholic's. Illumianti!!!
The whole idea of the Roman Catholics having some part in the beginnings of Islam is refuted on this Sunni Forum: http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/printthread.php?t=3150
Apparently, the anti-catholic activist, Alberto Rivera is responsible this accusation. Read more about him here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alberto_Ri ... ated_Islam
It includes his accusations, as well as the cornerstone expose on him. Is this the source from which you are repeating claims, book of ruth? Or is there another source I am missing?


These two groups alone, catholics and muslims are approx. 4 billion people. There are only 6 billion on the earth.
Yea, we've got our work cut out for us. Please permit me to kindly suggest that learning about our billions of other brothers and sisters from their own mouths/hearts will get us much further along in such a work than what is represented in your post. And if you are going to post something like that please provide sources.

They are being highly controlled by dictators who are installed/supported by western govts to protect said western govts' (political, military, and business) interests and the Middle Eastern Anti-Christ and the Roman False Prophet have some pretty strong ties.Please substantiate.

570 AD + 1260 spoken of by Daniel= 1830 Coming forth of the Book of Mormon.

Very few people know of this connection, but it's no coincidence. We must preach the gospel to ALL the world.

pritchet1
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by pritchet1 »

Please look at the other posts we did regarding the promotion of Shariah Law, the Pedophelia of Muhammad, the other writings and links we posted regarding the writings of Muhammad, the constant accounts of the "Religion of Peace" destroying Christian peoples around the world, the true meaning of "Allah", Taquia and how to lie to Christians to subjugate them and what "gentiles are called" by Muslims, how we as western people are to be assimulated or destroyed, how Muslims who convert to Mormonism have to be 'hidden', so as not to be killed by their relatives, the concept of honor killings (justified murder), ad nauseum. Yadayadayada.

Yes, we need to learn their culture and traditions, so as to help them understand the fullness of the Gospel today.

Oh and when a Muslim family invites you to eat, take them up on it. Tradition is that when you do, you are no longer in the "enemy" camp, but are then protected by them from other Muslims intent on your destruction.

We do not need to be apologists for Islam. We do need to be mindful of the hornet's nest we walk into and how to protect ourselves.

When we get a temple in Saudi Arabia and the Book of Mormon is openly accepted in Islamic States, then I will accept Islam as the "Religion of Peace". Sharia Law is totally and completely antithetical to the Constitution of the United States and should not exist within the borders of the United States.

And yes, the POTUS is Muslim and represents Taquia at its best.

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

pritchet1 wrote:Please look at the other posts we did regarding the promotion of Shariah Law, the Pedophelia of Muhammad, the other writings and links we posted regarding the writings of Muhammad, the constant accounts of the "Religion of Peace" destroying Christian peoples around the world, the true meaning of "Allah", Taquia and how to lie to Christians to subjugate them and what "gentiles are called" by Muslims, how we as western people are to be assimulated or destroyed, how Muslims who convert to Mormonism have to be 'hidden', so as not to be killed by their relatives, the concept of honor killings (justified murder), ad nauseum. Yadayadayada.

Yes, we need to learn their culture and traditions, so as to help them understand the fullness of the Gospel today.

Oh and when a Muslim family invites you to eat, take them up on it. Tradition is that when you do, you are no longer in the "enemy" camp, but are then protected by them from other Muslims intent on your destruction.

We do not need to be apologists for Islam. We do need to be mindful of the hornet's nest we walk into and how to protect ourselves.

When we get a temple in Saudi Arabia and the Book of Mormon is openly accepted in Islamic States, then I will accept Islam as the "Religion of Peace". Sharia Law is totally and completely antithetical to the Constitution of the United States and should not exist within the borders of the United States.

And yes, the POTUS is Muslim and represents Taquia at its best.
I knew this was coming. Pritchet1, it's strikes as highly ironic that Mormons are engaging in practices that anti-mormons do. (i.e. repeating speculative [as in Book of Ruth's case] or making charges against Muslims that are still hotly debated today). I could insert Joseph Smith and Mormonism into several of the of the claims made of the Islamic faith, and it would be of the same tone and making as anti-Mormon literature. All I'm trying to encourage here is an application of the Golden Rule.

As I said earlier, I appreciate Krister Stendahl's rules of interfaith dialogue
I recall the words of Krister Stendahl, Lutheran Bishop of Stockholm, Sweden, and Dean of Divinity Emeritus, Harvard University. At a press conference in 1985 he offered three rules for interfaith discussion. The event was related by Truman G. Madsen, professor at Brigham Young University who was in attendance at the press conference (see video).

Madsen: “Professor Krister Stendahl, of Harvard Divinity School, became the Bishop of Stockholm, in Sweden. During a visit we made there, he called a press conference, invited various of his friends, and then said the following;

“He said, ‘I have three rules for interfaith discussion, to wit:

Number one: If you’re going to ask the question, what do others believe, in their various faiths, ask them – not their critics, not their enemies.’” (see also Mauss Interview)

Stendahl: “Because what one religious tradition says about another is usually a breach against the commandment, ‘Thou shalt not bear false witness’.”

Madsen: “‘Number two: if you’re going to compare, don’t compare your bests with their worsts, but compare bests with bests.’”

Stendahl: “Most people think of their own tradition as it is at its best and they use caricatures of the others.”

Madsen: “And then number three, he said, ‘Leave room for holy envy’ and then he said, ‘Let me give you an example of my holy envy for the Latter Day Saints: We Lutherans, when we lose our loved ones, we have funerals, we have cemeteries, but that ends our concern with those who have gone before. But the Latter-Day Saints care about their forebearers to the point that they want to bring the blessings of Christ’s atonement to them, so they build temples, and according to Paul’s instruction in First Corinthians, they perform baptisms for the dead,’ and then he smiled and said, ‘I have holy envy for that.’”

Stendahl: “In a world where we finally have learned what I call the “holy envy”, it’s a beautiful thing; I could think of myself as taking part in such an act, extending the blessings that have come to me in and through Jesus Christ. That’s generous, that’s beautiful, and should not be ridiculed or spoken badly of.” Citied from “Between Heaven and Earth” DVD, 2002, Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Yes, I've heard all the things that you stated in your first paragraph. I understand the suspicion and fear regarding sharia law. But as far as I can ascertain, these things are being said from the viewpoint of Islam's enemies, whether they be non-muslim or ex-muslim. We certainly don't like it when non-mormons and ex-mormons speak for us, nor do we wish for people to view us through their lens. How many Muslim voices have you listened to on these issues. Have you given them equal time?

sourcedist
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by sourcedist »

Dalin H Oaks speaks on tolerance.. in this talk he also cites Islam.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICyPwr3Y-ZI" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Book of Ruth
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Book of Ruth »

If my comments were interpreted as being against anyone, that was absolutely not my intent, and I'm sorry. It is hard to convey conjuncture in writing.

One of my very good friends in Sunni. He has attended LDS meetings, and the most common difficulties when investigating the church did not phase him a bit. (i.e. polygamy) He quit understood how the position of the Prophet fell to Brigham Young, and not to Joseph's son.

Here is my point, is the religion of Islam false? Yes. Is the Catholic church false? Yes. Are they both the "Mother of Abominations"? Yes. Is Satan behind both? Yes. Are there very good people who belong to both of these organizations? Yes. They are both being controled by Satan.

The Fourth Samaritan Revolt against Byzantium (The Byzantine Empire (or Byzantium) was the Eastern Roman Empire during the periods of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, centred on the capital of Constantinople. Known simply as the Roman Empire) results in great reduction of the Samaritan community, their Israelite faith is outlawed. Neighbouring Jews, who mostly reside in Galilee, are also affected by the oppressive rule of the Byzantines.
Browning, Robert (1992). The Byzantine Empire. Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press. ISBN 0-8132-0754-1.

Islam is the answer to Romes Jewish problems. Haven't you ever wondered why they hate the Jews so much, and that they call for their destruction? How they cannot co-exist? This is same warfare that is constantly used today. Problem, Reaction, Solution.

**And I completely agree with the western backed dictators being placed in power. That is what I am saying happened with the creation of Islam

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

Book of Ruth wrote:If my comments were interpreted as being against anyone, that was absolutely not my intent, and I'm sorry. It is hard to convey conjuncture in writing.

Understood. I apologize for misunderstanding your intent.

One of my very good friends in Sunni. He has attended LDS meetings, and the most common difficulties when investigating the church did not faze him a bit. (i.e. polygamy) He quit understood how the position of the Prophet fell to Brigham Young, and not to Joseph's son. These are points I find interesting because they share a familiar narrative.

Here is my point, is the religion of Islam false? Yes. Is the Catholic church false? Yes. Are they both the "Mother of Abominations"? Yes. Is Satan behind both? Yes. Are there very good people who belong to both of these organizations? Yes. They are both being controled by Satan.

So I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that these organizations, as far as precepts concerned, are 100% false, or are you talking about authority/leadership? I agree with you as far as authority goes, but if you are talking about precepts, then that is where we disagree. I believe there are portions of truth to be found in other religions, and that these can be bridges of understanding (and, therefore, the beginnings of a better relationship) between people of our faith and theirs. I believe as the first presidency stated, that Mohammad was given a 'portion of light,' and that is what I look for in their religion. I do believe that Satan is behind the perverting of truth to bring about the spiritual and physical destruction of God's children. I think he has been very successful with this throughout world history, including, but certainly not limited to, Christian, Judaic, and Islamic nations.

The Fourth Samaritan Revolt against Byzantium (The Byzantine Empire (or Byzantium) was the Eastern Roman Empire during the periods of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, centred on the capital of Constantinople. Known simply as the Roman Empire) results in great reduction of the Samaritan community, their Israelite faith is outlawed. Neighbouring Jews, who mostly reside in Galilee, are also affected by the oppressive rule of the Byzantines.
Browning, Robert (1992). The Byzantine Empire. Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press. ISBN 0-8132-0754-1.
This happened in 556, before Muhammad was born. Again, to clarify, are you saying that the Samaritans/Jews were the 'problem' the Eastern Roman Empire was having? And that creating Islam is how they attempted to solve it? If so, the conquerors were surely having a problem with the native population, but to jump to the conclusion that Islam is how they solved it is still a jump based on speculation. How do you reconcile your view with this--specifically the part where it says that 'morals truths were given to them by God...':
http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/FDINT2 ... 01978.html


Islam is the answer to Romes Jewish problems. Haven't you ever wondered why they hate the Jews so much, and that they call for their destruction? How they cannot co-exist? This is same warfare that is constantly used today. Problem, Reaction, Solution. Does your Sunni friend concur with this assessment? Why or why not?

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LDSguy
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by LDSguy »

Book of Ruth wrote:There are only 6 billion on the earth.
I just wanted to add that there are now approx. 7 billion people on Earth.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/stor ... 51007670/1

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LDSguy
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by LDSguy »

I agree that
Book of Ruth wrote:570 AD + 1260 spoken of by Daniel= 1830 Coming forth of the Book of Mormon.
I'm just not sure how that relates to your history lesson on Muhammad other than the church was restored in 1830 after 1260 years prophesied by Daniel since 570 AD and since the restoration has occurred we need to preach the gospel to the 4 billion Catholics/Muslims you talked about.

Maybe I missed something?

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Book of Ruth
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Book of Ruth »

linj2
So I don't misunderstand you, are you saying that these organizations, as far as precepts concerned, are 100% false, or are you talking about authority/leadership? I agree with you as far as authority goes, but if you are talking about precepts, then that is where we disagree.
I'm talking about authority.
I believe there are portions of truth to be found in other religions, and that these can be bridges of understanding (and, therefore, the beginnings of a better relationship) between people of our faith and theirs.
Yes, I believe they have a portion of truth, that is what muddies the waters, they do not have the full truth. This is exactly how Satan does it so well, he mixes truth with lies.

I believe as the first presidency stated, that Mohammad was given a 'portion of light,' and that is what I look for in their religion. I do believe that Satan is behind the perverting of truth to bring about the spiritual and physical destruction of God's children. I think he has been very successful with this throughout world history, including, but certainly not limited to, Christian, Judaic, and Islamic nations.
Full Agreement

The Fourth Samaritan Revolt against Byzantium (The Byzantine Empire (or Byzantium) was the Eastern Roman Empire during the periods of Late Antiquity and the Middle Ages, centred on the capital of Constantinople. Known simply as the Roman Empire) results in great reduction of the Samaritan community, their Israelite faith is outlawed. Neighbouring Jews, who mostly reside in Galilee, are also affected by the oppressive rule of the Byzantines.
Browning, Robert (1992). The Byzantine Empire. Washington, DC: The Catholic University of America Press. ISBN 0-8132-0754-1.
This happened in 556, before Muhammad was born. Yes, I know. This problem was before the coming of the Savior.

Again, to clarify, are you saying that the Samaritans/Jews were the 'problem' the Eastern Roman Empire was having? And that creating Islam is how they attempted to solve it? If so, the conquerors were surely having a problem with the native population, but to jump to the conclusion that Islam is how they solved it is still a jump based on speculation. How do you reconcile your view with this--specifically the part where it says that 'morals truths were given to them by God...':
http://emp.byui.edu/SatterfieldB/FDINT2 ... 01978.html

Moral truths does not equal true religion.

Islam is the answer to Romes Jewish problems. Haven't you ever wondered why they hate the Jews so much, and that they call for their destruction? How they cannot co-exist? This is same warfare that is constantly used today. Problem, Reaction, Solution. Does your Sunni friend concur with this assessment? Why or why not?[/quote][/quote]
This is a lengthy answer.

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Book of Ruth
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Book of Ruth »

More detail in the Muhammed timeline. Rome had problems with the Jews for centuries prior to Muhammed's birth. In AD 70 Rome destroyed the temple in Jerusalem. This should of squashed the Jews, and they should of stopped up-risings and they should of done whatever Rome told them to, and be the slaves they should of been. (over simplifying I know) But they didn't bow to Rome. Then you have another group, the Christians. They rebelled and no matter how many Rome killed, they kept preaching Christianity. So..... Rome gave them Christianity in its adulterated form--Catholicism. Now the Roman Empire had control over the church and state so to speak. We know Christians kept preaching, but for the most part this passified them so that they would quit rebelling. But what about the Jews? They would not leave Jerusalem, this is their Holy City where the Messiah would come. So..... A new religion, one that would build upon the place where the Jewish temple once stood should surely humiliate the Jews once and for all. And this new religion was set-up to destroy the Jews.

About my friend the Sunni, he's in America for a reason. Sunni is Osama Bin Laden and the Muslim Brotherhood. Shi' is 12 imam which is hastened through wiping the little and great Satan's off the map. My Sunni friend is kind and happy, his mother will pick out a bride for him in his home country, and if she (the bride) does not please him, his mother will continue to pick out wives for him. All women do not have rights in his belief system, they are property meant to serve the men. He is a regular Sunni, and he has friends here, but he knows that the infidels will have to die by Allah.

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

Book of Ruth:
Yes, I believe they have a portion of truth, that is what muddies the waters, they do not have the full truth. This is exactly how Satan does it so well, he mixes truth with lies.
Agree with this general statement.

But this is why I brought up the First Presidency's statement, which is saying he received a 'portion of light' and 'moral truths' from God. He did not receive the 'portion' from Satan as you seem to be saying in the above statement and with your thesis that Islam is a creation of the Catholic Church. So which is it? Can it be both? How? As I've said in previous posts, religion is the oft exploited means by which conquest and killing is justified. I know they don't have a pretty picture and neither do we on this account. No argument about this aspect of history, but you have not proven anything beyond conjecture and speculation regarding a Roman Catholic Connection. Is it possible? Maybe. Is it possible that Mohammad was inspired by God (which is already affirmed by the 1st pres so far as light is concerned) and that it devolved from there....yea. It's not like that's an isolated pattern.
This problem was before the coming of the Savior.
(Agreed)
Moral truths does not equal true religion.
---I never argued that....I was merely pointing out from whom he received light...as opposed to some satanic plot/influence from the Roman Catholic church. That is why I asked you to reconcile it. How do you think they can both be true?

pritchet1
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by pritchet1 »

The First Presidency was being politically correct on this one. Just like they can't condemn Communism nay longer since by doing so, it shuts down operations in Communist states around the world. So now we ARE a Communist state and apparently soon to be a Muslim state the way things are going.

Welcome to the new Caliphate in DC (or Michigan or...)

http://www.dhimmitude.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How's that Dhimmitude doing for you anyway?
Dhimmitude: the Islamic system of governing populations conquered by jihad wars, encompassing all of the demographic, ethnic, and religious aspects of the political system. The word "dhimmitude" as a historical concept, was coined by Bat Ye'or in 1983 to describe the legal and social conditions of Jews and Christians subjected to Islamic rule. The word "dhimmitude" comes from dhimmi, an Arabic word meaning "protected". Dhimmi was the name applied by the Arab-Muslim conquerors to indigenous non-Muslim populations who surrendered by a treaty (dhimma) to Muslim domination. Islamic conquests expanded over vast territories in Africa, Europe and Asia, for over a millennium (638-1683). The Muslim empire incorporated numerous varied peoples which had their own religion, culture, language and civilization. For centuries, these indigenous, pre-Islamic peoples constituted the great majority of the population of the Islamic lands. Although these populations differed, they were ruled by the same type of laws, based on the shari'a.

This similarity, which includes also regional variations, has created a uniform civilization developed throughout the centuries by all non-Muslim indigenous people, who were vanquished by a jihad-war and governed by shari'a law. It is this civilization which is called dhimmitude. It is characterized by the different strategies developed by each dhimmi group to survive as non-Muslim entity in their Islamized countries. Dhimmitude is not exclusively concerned with Muslim history and civilization. Rather it investigates the history of those non-Muslim peoples conquered and colonized by jihad.

Dhimmitude encompasses the relationship of Muslims and non-Muslims at the theological, social, political and economical levels. It also incorporates the relationship between the numerous ethno-religious dhimmi groups and the type of mentality that they have developed out of their particular historical condition which lasted for centuries, even in some Muslim countries, till today.

Dhimmitude is an entire integrated system, based on Islamic theology. It cannot be judged from the circumstantial position of any one community, at a given time and in a given place. Dhimmitude must be appraised according to its laws and customs, irrespectively of circumstances and political contingencies.

For books by Bat Ye'or, see http://www.dhimmi.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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AussieOi
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by AussieOi »

So you're telling me then that Dallin Oak's comment re Income tax was just being PC to the govt? I don't have to really believe that

What abou tour opposition to Prop 8? Or the queer Exec Sec? shall I go on?

We've had this thread 3 times before. Went for 40 pages or whatever

everything brought up about islam and sharia law i countered with quotes from christ (i bring not peace but a sword, mother against daughter)
female circumcision is bad but apparently male circumcision is acceptable?
i mean thats the biggest joke of them all

here in Australia only religious freaks and Jews circumcise their sons. why? because it is sheer butchery.
and as LDS we have it in black and white, from GOD himself, that circumcision IS DONE AWAY with, in christ
it isn't needed anymore
it is about a jewish covenent

and yet americans are the #1 butcher of their sons penis', and LDS are up there with the highest %
and it is butchery
utter butchery
soe of you rabbit on about hygeine what rubbish
do you lift your arm-pit to wash or cut your arms off? what about your butt-cheeks? do you lop those off also

and come on here and tell me that islam are butcher, and oppress their women

tell me, how long ago did women get the vote again?
how long ago could they borrow?
weren't they a "chattel" of their husbands?


extreme islam is probably what the USA looked like when those religious extremist nutjob pilgrims arrived 400 years ago
i seem to remember they drowned a few girls as being witches no?

give islam 300 years to compare it please.

i could go on but we did this conversation 50 times

the Baptist pastor
USA wars in Iraq, i mean slaughters

and yet Jews reside comfortably in Iran and did in Iraq...oh, until the USA came in there.


and ou send your boys to die for corporate greed and they kill the moderates, the ones_without_a state religion, and your country buddies up with the #1 oppressive state of them all, saudio arabia.
but apparently its about womens freedom?

meanwhile, over on MTV...

these threads pander to inherent prejudice which never appears to develop

pritchet1
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by pritchet1 »

Did we hit a hot button Aussie?

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linj2fly
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by linj2fly »

I do not think they were being polite. It was not an isolated comment, and they did not have to make such a statement. Further...President Faust affirms this teaching (found at the same link).

I will add one more witness, that of Pres. Howard, who also affirms Elder Orson Whitney's teaching:
Our Heavenly Father loves all his children and so should we. It should be manifestly evident to members of the Church that our Father loves all of his children. He desires all of them to embrace the gospel and come unto him. Only those are favored who obey him and keep his commandments.

As members of the Lord's church, we need to lift our vision beyond personal prejudices. We need to discover the supreme truth that indeed our Father is no respecter of persons. Sometimes we unduly offend brothers and sisters of other nations by assigning exclusiveness to one nationality of people over another.

We have members of the Church in the Muslim world. These are wonderful Saints, good members of the Church. They live in Iran, Egypt, Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, and other countries. Sometimes they are offended by members of the Church who give the impression that we favor only the aims of the Jews. The Church has an interest in all of Abraham's descendants, and we should remember that the history of the Arabs goes back to Abraham through his son Ishmael.

Imagine a father with many sons, each having different temperaments, aptitudes, and spiritual traits. Does he love one son less than another? Perhaps the son who is least spiritually inclined has the father's attention, prayers, and pleadings more than the others. Does that mean he loves the others less? Do you imagine our Heavenly Father loving one nationality of his offspring more exclusively than others? As members of the Church, we need to be reminded of Nephi's challenging question: "Know ye not that there are more nations than one?" (2 Nephi 29:7). (79-01, p. 35)

Love of God and man is the fundamental commandment of Christians. "And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

"And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these." (Mark 12:30-31.)

The logic of this is simple, clear, and unequivocal: the proof of love of God is love of one's brother. This becomes the fundamental commandment of Christianity. This was the religion taught by the Master. How happy would society be were these two plain, rational precepts properly observed: Love me, and love thy fellows.

The living of this commandment by all men would restore peace to the earth. It would cause them to love the Lord and thereby keep his commandments; thus the troubles of our age would vanish, and man's happiness in a moral world would result. (66-03, p. 517)

A cabinet minister of Egypt once told me that if a bridge is ever built between Christianity and Islam, it must be built by the Mormon Church. In making inquiry as to the reason for his statement, I was impressed by his recitation of the similarities and the common bonds of brotherhood.

Both the Jews and the Arabs are children of our Father. They are both children of promise, and as a church we do not take sides. We have love for and an interest in each. The purpose of the gospel of Jesus Christ is to bring about love, unity, and brotherhood of the highest order. Like Nephi of old, may we be able to say, "I have charity for the Jew. I also have charity for the Gentiles." (2 Nephi 33:8, 9.) (79-01, p. 36)
All of mankind share an inheritance of divine light. We believe there is a spiritual influence that emanates from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space (see D&C 88:12). All men share an inheritance of divine light. God operates among his children in all nations, and those who seek God are entitled to further light and knowledge, regardless of their race, nationality, or cultural traditions.

Elder Orson F. Whitney, in a conference address, explained that many great religious leaders were inspired. He said: "[God] is using not only his covenant people, but other peoples as well, to consummate a work, stupendous, magnificent, and altogether too arduous for this little handful of Saints to accomplish by and of themselves.

"All down the ages men bearing the authority of the Holy Priesthood—patriarchs, prophets, apostles and others, have officiated in the name of the Lord, doing the things that he required of them; and outside the pale of their activities other good and great men, not bearing the Priesthood, but possessing profundity of thought, great wisdom, and a desire to uplift their fellows, have been sent by the Almighty into many nations, to give them, not the fulness of the Gospel, but that portion of truth that they were able to receive and wisely use." (In Conference Report, April 1921, pp. 32-33.) (91-04, p. 19)

Love of God and love of our fellowman are inseparable. Eternal life, God's life, the life we are seeking, is rooted in two commandments. The scriptures say that "on these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" (Matthew 22:40). Love God and love your neighbor. The two work together; they are inseparable. In the highest sense they may be considered as synonymous. And they are commandments that each of us can live. (86-03, p. 34)
(All of these quotes are found in "The Teachings of President Howard W. Hunter," Ch. 7)

So far as I can tell, 6 prophets and apostles have affirmed this teaching; that passes the law of witnesses, and finally....

Missionary work cannot succeed long term without Charity. People don't care what you know until they know that you care.

pritchet1
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by pritchet1 »

Apologize yourself out of this Taquia activity -

http://pjmedia.com/blog/stonewall-napol ... -elibiary/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It’s been nearly five weeks since I broke the story exclusively at PJ Media: Homeland Security Advisory Council member Mohamed Elibiary downloaded sensitive Texas Department of Public Safety reports from the Homeland Security State and Local Intelligence Community of Interest (HS SLIC) database, then shopped them to at least one left-leaning media outlet. Elibiary claimed the reports represented a pattern of “Islamophobia” under GOP presidential hopeful Rick Perry’s watch.

As I reported, the publication declined to publish anything on the leaked materials — which were marked “For Official Use Only” (FOUO) — after finding that there was no “Islamophobia” to be found. TX DPS Director Steve McCraw confirmed to me that Elibiary had in fact accessed and downloaded his agency’s reports on the HS SLIC. Elibiary also serves on the TX DPS Advisory Council.

In the five weeks since, neither Secretary Napolitano nor the Department of Homeland Security has commented on the matter.

Before publishing the original article, I spoke with DHS spokesman Chris Ortman. After grilling me about the nature of my source, he immediately terminated the conversation after I asked him how and when Elibiary got access to the HS SLIC system, telling me he would have to get back to me.

Needless to say, I’m still waiting for that return phone call, despite follow-up emails.

The questions I am looking to get answered:

1) When did Elibiary get access to the HS SLIC system, and who approved it?

2) Why was Elibiary the only member of the Homeland Security Advisory Council — he is one of 26 members — to get access to that system?

3) What is the status of the investigation requested by TX DPS Director McCraw into Elibiary’s leaking his agency’s documents to the media?

4) What other sensitive government databases did/does Elibiary still have access to, since he works with other agencies (e.g., FBI, National Counterterrorism Center, Office of the Director of National Intelligence)?

5) Is there evidence that Elibiary leaked sensitive documents and reports to other media outlets?

Admittedly, I’m not alone in failing to get answers about the matter. When Rep. Louie Gohmert (R-TX) questioned Napolitano about Elibiary when she was before the House Judiciary Committee the day my initial report appeared, Napolitano feigned ignorance (we know her senior aides had been briefed by TX DPS the night before):

Gohmert: Secretary, were you aware that a week ago today, from his home computer, he accessed the SLIC database, got information off and has been shopping a story to national media on islamophobia … [inaudible] … at the Governor of Texas and the security folks in Texas. Were you aware of that?

Napolitano: No.

Gohmert: I’m telling you, it happened. Do we need to appoint somebody or will you have that investigated yourself, and if so, by whom?

Napolitano: Well, since I don’t know the facts, I’ll have to look into that.

In the video, Napolitano seemed unfazed that one of her top advisers was being accused of leaking sensitive intelligence for partisan political purposes, with corroborating evidence being given by the director of one of the top state homeland security agencies in the country. Was she lying about not knowing? If she wasn’t, it doesn’t speak well of her staff that they failed to inform her. Perhaps that’s something for Congress to take a look at as well.

But it isn’t just Congress that’s being stonewalled on the Elibiary matter.
I'm just really surprise (NOT) at the ignorance in supporting a quasi-religion based on lying cheating, stealing, sex with minors, murdering and saying their God is Allah - who is in fact Satan - and is totally, unequivocally opposed to free agency and the Constitutional principles we supposedly defend.

When you offer an Olive Branch and the other individual is holding a sword, don't be surprise if the last thing you see is the arm missing from your body, still holding the Olive branch as you bleed to death.

Tribunal
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by Tribunal »

linj2fly, have you actually experienced Muslims in Muslim countries where a vast majority of the people are Muslim? If so where? And this doesn't include Michigan. =))

pritchet1
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by pritchet1 »

Let me know when the policy of the church changes regarding baptizing a person who is in a Muslim family (Not Black Muslims in the USSA, but those from Islamic states). Current policy is to keep it secret, so as not to cause the person being baptized from being killed by those who profess the "Religion of Peace" after he or she joins the church. These killings are not "extremism", they are standard practice that has gone on for centuries.

AshleyB
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Re: Muhammed, the Muslim prophet

Post by AshleyB »

Great thread linj2fly. I had a muslim friend in high school and she was one of the sweetest, meekest people I ever met. In fact if it wasn't for her tutoring me I wouldn't have done as well in our math class as I did. But I would often ask her questions about her religion and she would always very kindly and patiently answer any questions I had. I came away with the conclusion that you just can't broadly generalize people. And before I became lds I looked into a few religions. I still have good friends who worship Meher Baba and though I disagree with a good portion of their religion I found that there were many other things we had in common and still lots of good truths within their religion and all the people I met were very kind. I think it's so important to try and look for the good in all people and religions and not focus so much on disagreements and spend time judging people when we are not equipt to make such judgments. Of course there are evil or "extreme" people out there in every religion, race, and culture. But spending time focusing on those things and being so intolerant of other's just breeds more evil. We don't have to be naive but we don't have to be cynical about the world either. My dad was so cynical about so many things and I saw how unhappy it made him. It's a big part of the reason why I went so opposite and probably partly why I am now LDS. There is some bit of truth in all religions. And Iv'e always felt that there are still things I can learn from people even if they aren't lds. If more people of differing faith's could learn to be more accepting and loving and even open minded we wouldn't have many of the problems we do and the gospel would spread much faster. It doesn't mean we have to always agree with each other but we don't have to focus on those disagreements and look down on someone else because of those differences. We are all children of the same loving Father and we are all on equal ground. I think many people will be surprised at how many people who were muslim or catholic or baptist while on the earth will end up in the celestial kingdom. That's just my 2 cents.

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