Denver Snuffer's appearance at the Confetti Bookstore

[BrianM]

It was great to see those from the forum that were there.

[zion or bustcaptain of 100]

Here is a link to the audio recording of Denver's talk:

http://denversnuffer.blogspot.com/2011/ ... -talk.html

[notjamesbond003.5captain of 100]

For those that attended Friday's event what are your views of Denver now?

Do you see him as regular LDS guy who happen to have a beautiful experience with the Savior having met him personally and being ministered by Him, or is he a heretical apostate as some have attempted to label him here?

njb

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

For those that attended Friday's event what are your views of Denver now?

Do you see him as regular LDS guy who happen to have a beautiful experience with the Savior having met him personally and being ministered by Him, or is he a heretical apostate as some have attempted to label him here?

njb

My opinion of him didn't change after watching him talk. I still feel he is genuine in what he shares. I didn't view him as an apostate before, but I imagine those who may have before the meeting could feel he is still. There were people who walked out at a few points.

I felt enlightened by his explanation of the role of Elijah and Zion. It seemed to sink in where the traditional view has always left me wanting better explanation.

There was a moment at the end where he expressed that those who qualify for Zion must have charity. He mentioned that he has to have charity for those from his own faith who accuse him of evil and apostasy - it touched me and I could feel his heart hurt.


*Edited for terrible grammar.

[notjamesbond003.5captain of 100]

Thank u 14freedom. Yes Charity is the answer and I feel it often lacking so so many times at church-but forgive those who offend -freely.


The Gospel is such that he who posseses charity and forgiveness in his heart wins in the end.

Simple enough ?

Njb

[mljHi, I'm new.]

I was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? A carcass is a dead body, what in the world have eagles ever had to do with dead bodies? When the scripture came to mind with a perfectly clear answer as Denver was speaking, I felt like the Lord was teaching me. I had many such experiences as I read Passing the Heavenly Gift that were incredible to me. I have just about memorized the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon as I have studied them so much trying to find understanding. Nothing I read about understanding Isaiah has given me satisfaction. But as I read Denver's book, I would suddenly have a verse come to mind. I wanted to investigate it so bad that I put his book aside and read the verse in context which gave me other ideas that I searched out the scriptures and read. I felt revelation flowing like never before. I don't think the devil can enlighten a mind like that. I feel it was of God and I felt like the people of king Mosiah when he announced a new form of government. The people "relinquished their desire for a king, and became exceedingly anxious that every man should have an equal chance throughout the land; yea and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins...they were exceedingly rejoiced because of the liberty which had been granted unto them." It can be a scary thing to be made the master of your own fate, all the security is stripped away and it is up to you to rise up. No wonder the stars shouted for joy and sang together. The Lord truly has prepared the way for all men to see, hear, and know the mysteries of God if they repent and come unto him. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

It means where the body of the church is gathered, the lost tribes will come to. It is reference to the saints gathering and building the New Jerusalem and the lost tribes coming to get their blessings at the hands of Ephraim.

Or another way to see it. Where the carcass (Christ) is (NJ) the eagles (lost tribes) will gather.

Either way, it is talking about the gathering of scattered Israel to the Gospel (spiritually) and to the lands of there inheritance (physically). This is in fulfillment of the covenant that God made to Abraham.

Christ cleanses America first which allows NJ to be built. This allows the lost tribes to come to NJ to get their endowments. So they gather where the carcass is. Later Christ cleanses the old world which allows the lost tribes to gather there to their inheritances. So the lost tribes spiritual gathering begins at NJ and their physical gathering is fulfilled at OJ.

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

My opinion of him didn't change after watching him talk. I still feel he is genuine in what he shares. I didn't view him as an apostate before, but I imagine those who may did could feel he is still. There were people who walked out at a few points.

I felt enlightened by his explanation of the role of Elijah and Zion. It seemed to sink in where the traditional view has always left me wanting better explanation.

There was a moment at the end where he expressed that those who qualify for Zion must have charity. He mentioned that he has to have charity for those from his own faith who accuse him of evil and apostasy - it touched me and I could feel his heart hurt.

I agree with you here 14freedom. My opinion did not chnage. In fact I was further convinced that the man is genuine and does not have a sinister, ulterior motive. I felt quite sad for him at the end too. I could envision him going to the Lord in prayer and struggling to have more charity towards all those whose are so quick to judge him. I was very impressed with the man.

I was sitting at the front, so I did not see anyone walk out. Did they leave after something he said, as if they were offended? I have a hard time remembering anything that would have offended someone....except for the use of the word a-- or d---, maybe that was just to much for some....

mlj said:

I was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? A carcass is a dead body, what in the world have eagles ever had to do with dead bodies? When the scripture came to mind with a perfectly clear answer as Denver was speaking, I felt like the Lord was teaching me.

I am curious as to how you interpert this scripture, please share.

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

I was sitting at the front, so I did not see anyone walk out. Did they leave after something he said, as if they were offended? I have a hard time remembering anything that would have offended someone....except for the use of the word a-- or d---, maybe that was just to much for some....

There were a few people who randomly left during times that couldn't have possibly have been offensive. When he said the dreaded "A word" I counted 5 people leave.

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

I was sitting at the front, so I did not see anyone walk out. Did they leave after something he said, as if they were offended? I have a hard time remembering anything that would have offended someone....except for the use of the word a-- or d---, maybe that was just to much for some....

There were a few people who randomly left during times that couldn't have possibly have been offensive. When he said the dreaded "A word" I counted 5 people leave.

I laughed to myself at that moment when I was listing to the mp3. I hear that word (amongst many others) 50 times a day. It must be nice to live in such a pure environment where you can seal yourself off from the day's vernacular like that! JS said he'd prefer to be around a man who swears oaths a mile long but deals justice to his neighbors than the smooth hypocrite who deals unjustly.

Anyway, it was a good talk. Not what I expected, but interesting. I'll have to grab the actual text for another read.

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

I was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? A carcass is a dead body, what in the world have eagles ever had to do with dead bodies? When the scripture came to mind with a perfectly clear answer as Denver was speaking, I felt like the Lord was teaching me.

I'm curious as to what the Spirit taught you... do tell! Here are common interpretations that are acceptable to me (but then, I confess I never asked that specific question):

Christ foretells the rapid spreading of the gospel in the world. It is plainly seen as the lightning. Christ preached his gospel openly. The Romans were like an eagle, and the ensign of their armies was an eagle. When a people, by their sin, make themselves as loathsome carcasses, nothing can be expected but that God should send enemies to destroy them. It is very applicable to the day of judgment, the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in that day, 2Th 2:1. Let us give diligence to make our calling and election sure; then may we know that no enemy or deceiver shall ever prevail against us.

For wheresoever the carcass is,.... Not Christ, as he is held forth in the Gospel, crucified and slain, through whose death is the savour of life, and by whom salvation is, and to whom sensible sinners flock, encouraged by the ministry of the word; and much less Christ considered as risen, exalted, and coming in great glory to judgment, to whom the word "carcass" will by no means agree, and but very poorly under the former consideration: but the people of the Jews are designed by it, in their fallen, deplorable, miserable, and lifeless state, who were like to the body of a man, or any other creature, struck dead with lightning from heaven; being destroyed by the breath of the mouth, and brightness of the coming of the son of man, like lightning, just as antichrist will be at the last day:

there will the eagles be gathered together: not particular believers here, or all the saints at the day of judgment; though these may be, as they are, compared to eagles for many things; as their swiftness in flying to Christ, their sagacity and the sharpness of their spiritual sight, soaring on high, and renewing their spiritual strength and youth: but here the Roman armies are intended, whose ensigns were eagles; and the eagle still is, to this day, the ensign of the Roman empire: formerly other creatures, with the eagle, were used for ensigns; but C. Marius, in his second consulship, banished them, and appropriated the eagle only to the legions: nor was it a single eagle that was carried before the army, but every legion had an eagle went before it, made of gold or silver, and carried upon the top of a spear (z): and the sense of this passage is this, that wherever the Jews were, whether at Jerusalem, where the body and carcass of them was, in a most forlorn and desperate condition; or in any other parts of the country, the Roman eagles, or legions, would find them out, and make an utter destruction of them. The Persic version, contrary to others, and to all copies, renders it "vultures"

http://bible.cc/matthew/24-28.htm

I had many such experiences as I read Passing the Heavenly Gift that were incredible to me. I have just about memorized the Isaiah chapters in the Book of Mormon as I have studied them so much trying to find understanding. Nothing I read about understanding Isaiah has given me satisfaction. But as I read Denver's book, I would suddenly have a verse come to mind. I wanted to investigate it so bad that I put his book aside and read the verse in context which gave me other ideas that I searched out the scriptures and read. I felt revelation flowing like never before. I don't think the devil can enlighten a mind like that. I feel it was of God and I felt like the people of king Mosiah when he announced a new form of government. The people "relinquished their desire for a king, and became exceedingly anxious that every man should have an equal chance throughout the land; yea and every man expressed a willingness to answer for his own sins...they were exceedingly rejoiced because of the liberty which had been granted unto them." It can be a scary thing to be made the master of your own fate, all the security is stripped away and it is up to you to rise up. No wonder the stars shouted for joy and sang together. The Lord truly has prepared the way for all men to see, hear, and know the mysteries of God if they repent and come unto him. Blessed be the name of the Lord.

Thanks, mlj. I hope you will post your insights often!

[reesecaptain of 1,000]

I was sitting at the front, so I did not see anyone walk out. Did they leave after something he said, as if they were offended? I have a hard time remembering anything that would have offended someone....except for the use of the word a-- or d---, maybe that was just to much for some....

There were a few people who randomly left during times that couldn't have possibly have been offensive. When he said the dreaded "A word" I counted 5 people leave.

Really! WOW.....

mlj wrote:
I was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? A carcass is a dead body, what in the world have eagles ever had to do with dead bodies? When the scripture came to mind with a perfectly clear answer as Denver was speaking, I felt like the Lord was teaching me.

I'm curious as to what the Spirit taught you... do tell! Here are common interpretations that are acceptable to me (but then, I confess I never asked that specific question):

Gruden, my interpretaion of that scripture is that the carcass is Zion, and the eagles are angels/translated beings who will gather there.

The other half of the scripture says: "so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth."
We know the elect will be the only ones allowed in Zion, and also that ultimately all individuals in Zion must be translated individuals.

[gruden2.0captain of 100]

mlj wrote:
I was edified by what I heard. I have always wondered, what does the scripture mean, "wheresoever the carcass is, there will the eagles be gathered together."? A carcass is a dead body, what in the world have eagles ever had to do with dead bodies? When the scripture came to mind with a perfectly clear answer as Denver was speaking, I felt like the Lord was teaching me.

I'm curious as to what the Spirit taught you... do tell! Here are common interpretations that are acceptable to me (but then, I confess I never asked that specific question):

Gruden, my interpretation of that scripture is that the carcass is Zion, and the eagles are angels/translated beings who will gather there.

The other half of the scripture says: "so likewise shall mine elect be gathered from the four quarters of the earth."
We know the elect will be the only ones allowed in Zion, and also that ultimately all individuals in Zion must be translated individuals.

Yes, that is true. I don't want to threadjack further, but after mlj brought this up I've done some studying on this and related scriptures, and I believe the Lord is doing an interesting compare-and-contrast. Maybe after I pull all the scriptures together I'll post on that, but there's at least a little bit more going on here than meets the eye (keeping in the spirit of Snuffer and looking at things in a whole new way).

BTW, I don't necessarily think all citizens of Zion must be translated, but they MUST all have the fulness of the priesthood. This gets back to the point of Snuffer's Passing the Heavenly Gift which I posted a synopsis for in the other thread.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

What do we know about an Eagle and a carcass. An eagle is the top of the line when talking about birds. It is beautiful, well respected, a master hunter, flies swiftly etc. IMO this represents Saints or those who are worthy to become saints.
What would a bunch of eagles be doing around a carcass? Eating. Feeding. Nourishing. So we have saints gathered to a place where they can be nourished. Where are we nourished?

Jeremiah 50:19
19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.

D&C 133:
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
 27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
 28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
 29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
 30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

Matthew 24:
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The place of feeding is where the saints will be. That is where Christ is. That in the beginning is the New Jerusalem.
Christ is saying if you want to know where to find me, look and see where the saints are gathering. The first part of the gathering to NJ will be those of Ephraim and Manasseh and the Gentiles who are converted. The second part will be the lost tribes, including those of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh who are still waiting to here the gospel.

Take a look at when he is speaking about these things in relation to the whole picture he is trying to paint. It is in the Millennium after Christ has come.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

. . . I don't want to threadjack further, but after mlj brought this up I've done some studying on this and related scriptures, and I believe the Lord is doing an interesting compare-and-contrast. Maybe after I pull all the scriptures together I'll post on that, but there's at least a little bit more going on here than meets the eye (keeping in the spirit of Snuffer and looking at things in a whole new way).

Looking forward to that...

[Randcaptain of 1,000]

What do we know about an Eagle and a carcass. An eagle is the top of the line when talking about birds. It is beautiful, well respected, a master hunter, flies swiftly etc. IMO this represents Saints or those who are worthy to become saints.
What would a bunch of eagles be doing around a carcass? Eating. Feeding. Nourishing. So we have saints gathered to a place where they can be nourished. Where are we nourished?

Jeremiah 50:19
19 And I will bring Israel again to his habitation, and he shall feed on Carmel and Bashan, and his soul shall be satisfied upon mount Ephraim and Gilead.

D&C 133:
26 And they who are in the north countries shall come in remembrance before the Lord; and their prophets shall hear his voice, and shall no longer stay themselves; and they shall smite the rocks, and the ice shall flow down at their presence.
 27 And an highway shall be cast up in the midst of the great deep.
 28 Their enemies shall become a prey unto them,
 29 And in the barren deserts there shall come forth pools of living water; and the parched ground shall no longer be a thirsty land.
 30 And they shall bring forth their rich treasures unto the children of Ephraim, my servants.
32 And there shall they fall down and be crowned with glory, even in Zion, by the hands of the servants of the Lord, even the children of Ephraim.

Matthew 24:
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

The place of feeding is where the saints will be. That is where Christ is. That in the beginning is the New Jerusalem.
Christ is saying if you want to know where to find me, look and see where the saints are gathering. The first part of the gathering to NJ will be those of Ephraim and Manasseh and the Gentiles who are converted. The second part will be the lost tribes, including those of the tribes of Ephraim and Manasseh who are still waiting to here the gospel.

Take a look at when he is speaking about these things in relation to the whole picture he is trying to paint. It is in the Millennium after Christ has come.

Interesting thoughts NGL. I find this interesting, the word in Greek for Carcase is defined as:
1) a fall, downfall
a) metaph. a failure, defeat, calamity
b) an error, lapse into sin
2) that which has fallen
a) the fallen body of one dead or slain, a corpse, a carcase

[BrianM]

I don't necessarily think all citizens of Zion must be translated, but they MUST all have the fulness of the priesthood....

Zion's going to be very small then?

It makes sense that that might be a requirement (having the fulness of the Priesthood), and as I understand it this means having not only having Priesthood conferred upon you by someone in Christ's Church with authority (which is what millions have today), but also having POWER in the Priesthood, which is not something that can be conferred/given by man, but only by the Lord, through our faithfulness.

Zion might be a lot smaller than I had imagined, or something big is going to happen that causes many of us to finally get out from the condemnation we are under... or I don't fully understand it

[braingruntcaptain of 100]

Can somebody sum up what he was saying about Elijah? If I understood him he seemed to imply that it would not be the actual Elijah person from the old testament, but "a ministry still future" perhaps by a mortal... these thoughts disturbed me and distilled as he was talking about John the Baptist filling the role of Elias.

He seems to imply that Enoch, Melchizedek, and Elijah all shared the "Elijah" calling. My worry is that Denver thinks [edit: may think] he's an elijah, like those guys, just like John the Baptist was an elias... and perhaps is yet to be the key whereby we are connected to the zion which exists above.

Indeed this seems to be Denver's mission. He's trying to tell you how to connect with heaven. That's well and good etc, it's just scary [edit: to me], (as he would ridicule). During the talk he spoke as though he were Enoch, reluctantly opening his mouth. [edit: During the talk he seemed based on the feeling in his voice, identify with Enoch as Enoch lamented his high calling] Anyway, it doesn't sit well with me. Tell me if I'm way off base, and he doesn't think of himself as Enoch at all.

[BrianM]

There is a no SLANDER policy on this forum. Anyone making false claims about Denver, or anyone else, may see their posts deleted, be warned, banned, etc. If you're going to make a claim that is potentially damaging to a person's reputation (i.e. Slander, which is illegal) you'll need to back it up with facts/quotes/sources, etc. Thanks.

[braingruntcaptain of 100]

There is a no SLANDER policy on this forum. Anyone making false claims about Denver, or anyone else, may see their posts deleted, be warned, banned, etc. If you're going to make a claim that is potentially damaging to a person's reputation (i.e. Slander, which is illegal) you'll need to back it up with facts/quotes/sources, etc. Thanks.

was that aimed at me? I wasn't making any claims, just asking questions. Any direct evidence from the talk trying to prove he thought he might have an elijah mission would be very circumstantial and slim indeed. I was just asking if that subtle flavor which I though I tasted, was tasted by anyone else.

[one4freedomcaptain of 100]

Can somebody sum up what he was saying about Elijah? If I understood him he seemed to imply that it would not be the actual Elijah person from the old testament, but "a ministry still future" perhaps by a mortal... these thoughts disturbed me and distilled as he was talking about John the Baptist filling the role of Elias.

He seems to imply that Enoch, Melchizedek, and Elijah all shared the "Elijah" calling. My worry is that Denver thinks he's an elijah, like those guys, just like John the Baptist was an elias... and perhaps is yet to be the key whereby we are connected to the zion which exists above.

Indeed this seems to be Denver's mission. He's trying to tell you how to connect with heaven. That's well and good etc, it's just scary, (as he would ridicule). During the talk he spoke as though he were Enoch, reluctantly opening his mouth. Anyway, it doesn't sit well with me. Tell me if I'm way off base, and he doesn't think of himself as Enoch at all.

That's not how I understand what he believes. I understand him to mean that the oft-foretold event of Elijah returning has not yet happened. He was the last one alive to ascend to heaven in a city of Enoch type of way. He believes Elijah will return to a people ready to learn how to live in Zion as those in the ancient times did.

The part about John the Baptist being Elias was referring to the Mt. of Transfiguration event where it said that Moses and Elias came - the JST clarification says it is Moses and John the Baptist, not Moses and Elijah.

In reference to Sec. 110 in the D&C, he is saying that Elijah didn't fulfill what has been foretold at that time as Joseph still referred to Elijah's return as a future event AFTER section 110.

[BrianM]

There is a no SLANDER policy on this forum. Anyone making false claims about Denver, or anyone else, may see their posts deleted, be warned, banned, etc. If you're going to make a claim that is potentially damaging to a person's reputation (i.e. Slander, which is illegal) you'll need to back it up with facts/quotes/sources, etc. Thanks.

was that aimed at me? I wasn't making any claims, just asking questions. Any direct evidence from the talk trying to prove he thought he might have an elijah mission would be very circumstantial and slim indeed. I was just asking if that subtle flavor which I though I tasted, was tasted by anyone else.

No, not aimed at you specifically, one comment has since been deleted - though it was aimed at everyone in general, as a reminder, and as a result of comments being made on various threads about Denver Snuffer.

I would remark that I don't think you should worry "that Denver thinks he's an elijah" since he's never SAID it. Seems silly. And I listened to the talk multiple times and never once thought he was implying that. Perhaps you're looking too deep into it? Or specifically looking for flaws or reasons not to like his message?

[BrianM]

To everyone,
You certainly don't have to agree with Denver Snuffer. That's fine. I happen to really like his books, and blog, but even I have found things I don't agree with. I am so grateful for the recommendation from good friends to read "The Second Comforter" (what an amazing book).

I just don't want to see people claiming that Denver said something that maybe he didn't (And this applies to making comments about anyone, not just Denver Snuffer). I think the proper way to approach such disagreements is to quote what was said and then explain why you disagree, or what disagree with. Sure, you might still be taking things out of context, but at least by citing specific statements you'll avoid possible outright lies.

We must remember that slander is illegal and inappropriate. The definition of slander: "The action or crime of making a false spoken statement damaging to a person's reputation." "Make false and damaging statements about (someone)".

There are likely many claims made on the forum that go unnoticed by myself and other moderator's, but we do take action on those issues we see or are brought to our attention.

So... Agree, disagree, doesn't matter, just backup your claims.

[braingruntcaptain of 100]

That's not how I understand what he believes. I understand him to mean that the oft-foretold event of Elijah returning has not yet happened. He was the last one alive to ascend to heaven in a city of Enoch type of way. He believes Elijah will return to a people ready to learn how to live in Zion as those in the ancient times did.

The part about John the Baptist being Elias was referring to the Mt. of Transfiguration event where it said that Moses and Elias came - the JST clarification says it is Moses and John the Baptist, not Moses and Elijah.

In reference to Sec. 110 in the D&C, he is saying that Elijah didn't fulfill what has been foretold at that time as Joseph still referred to Elijah's return as a future event AFTER section 110.

Ok I must assert that I'm speculating, trying to understand his meaning; but he said in preface to his John the Baptist comments (not a perfect quote): "one thing which has bearing on our Enoch doctrines..." and then goes on to describe how John the Baptist, a mortal distinct from Elias, fulfilled the role of elias. I merely ask, why does this have bearing on Elijah... unless he's implying, that like elias/John the Baptist the mission of Elijah may not be fulfilled by the man himself.

Why do you think he brings up Elias?

Now, if he is implying that someone will fill the Elijah Calling, one may next speculate as to who he thinks may fill that role. After that though passes through my head, my mind casts back onto something he said earlier, sharing what he believes Enoch's feelings are: (and I paraphrase) "much rather reflect on these things than share them with people who don't give damn about his message and hate him for it. Then in the end of the talk he says, among other things: "so, I write a book and I make a bunch of people mad..." It just wrapped the parallel between himself and Enoch that I though he might be drawing.

[Stella Solariscaptain of 1,000]

I understand him to mean that the oft-foretold event of Elijah returning has not yet happened. In reference to Sec. 110 in the D&C, he is saying that Elijah didn't fulfill what has been foretold at that time as Joseph still referred to Elijah's return as a future event AFTER section 110.

Just want to make sure I'm understanding correctly - is Denver saying the visit of Elijah on April 3, 1836, to Joseph Smith, Jr. and Oliver Cowdery, in the Kirtland Temple as a resurrected being (D&C 110:13-16) didn't happen - OR - it did happen, but that visitation didn't fulfill what Elijah's prophecied return was meant to fulfill? Or something else entirely? Thanks, 14freedom!

[BrianM]

is Denver saying the visit of Elijah on April 3, 1836, to Joseph Smith, Jr. and Oliver Cowdery, in the Kirtland Temple as a resurrected being (D&C 110:13-16) didn't happen - OR - it did happen, but that visitation didn't fulfill what Elijah's prophecied return was meant to fulfill? Or something else entirely?

You can listen to the talk for yourself, available on this thread and here: http://www.archive.org/details/ElijahTalk

[BrianM]

Ok I must assert that I'm speculating, trying to understand his meaning; but he said in preface to his John the Baptist comments (not a perfect quote): "one thing which has bearing on our Enoch doctrines..." and then goes on to describe how John the Baptist, a mortal distinct from Elias, fulfilled the role of elias. I merely ask, why does this have bearing on Elijah... unless he's implying, that like elias/John the Baptist the mission of Elijah may not be fulfilled by the man himself.

Why do you think he brings up Elias?

Now, if he is implying that someone will fill the Elijah Calling, one may next speculate as to who he thinks may fill that role. After that though passes through my head, my mind casts back onto something he said earlier, sharing what he believes Enoch's feelings are: (and I paraphrase) "much rather reflect on these things than share them with people who don't give damn about his message and hate him for it. Then in the end of the talk he says, among other things: "so, I write a book and I make a bunch of people mad..." It just wrapped the parallel between himself and Enoch that I though he might be drawing.

I can see the parallels you're making here. Things I didn't catch on to while listening... but still, I wouldn't worry about this further unless he actually came out and said that he's saying "I'm an 'Elijah'". Interesting though. Maybe he'll see this discussion and comment on it on his blog? DENVER? maybe not.

[Stella Solariscaptain of 1,000]

You can listen to the talk for yourself, available on this thread and here: http://www.archive.org/details/ElijahTalk

I have listened to it, but I'm still a little confused on this point. Maybe I missed something - I will listen to it again. Thanks!

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

How does this jive Brian?

"The proud descendants of Nauvoo, who have always retained control of the church's top leadership positions, claim to hold all the keys ever given to Joseph Smith. They teach that they can bind on earth and in heaven. They are the 'new Popes having the authority the Catholic Pope claims to possess, as J. Reuben Clark remarked. According to their account of the historical narrative, all is well in their Zion. They intend to build Zion some day, wen they get around to it. In the meantime, they continually curtail the scope of the restored faith, reducing the topics authorized to be taught in Sunday School, Priesthood, and Relief Society. Working to move farther and farther from what will be required for Zion. Their plan seems at odds with the end they seek." -Snuffer

Do you want to talk about "making a false statement damaging to a persons reputation"?

Why can't people post their thoughts/opinions (negative or positive) about Snuffer when he gets the thumbs up for his libelous (there is no slander on this site as nobody is speaking, only writing) comments about the Lords prophets and apostles? Unless your bias is showing, I'm not understanding why you're sensitive to negative critiques of Snuffer.

NGL's post that you deleted is absolutely nothing compared to what Snuffer wrote about the top leaders of Christ's church.

[Raindropcaptain of 100]

NGL's post that you deleted is absolutely nothing compared to what Snuffer wrote about the top leaders of Christ's church.

I think part of the difference here is that Snuffer takes pages and pages and pages laying a foundation for his point of view. He's studied volumes and volumes of sources on the subjects he writes about. Subjects of deep import which can only be learned by great mental and spiritual effort, over the course of time. And, I might add, living righteously so as to have the companionship of the Holy Ghost which is the great Teacher of Truth.

NGL, on the other hand, has not so much as read one of Snuffer's books, unless I'm mistaken.

One backs up his claims and ideas with solid research and tries to explain the hours of research to others who have not and may never do the same. The other gives hollow, sand-based opinions. So shadow is probably right... the deleted post was "absolutely nothing" compared to what Snuffer writes.