What is Kabbalah?

[cjexcaptain of 100]

I've read the same old stuff on the net but what is it, it seams just like all the other New Age type mumbo-jumbo to me. Anyway just wanted to hear what ya'll thought -Cjex

[SwissMrs&Pitchfirecaptain of 1,000]

The term cabal derives from Kabbalah (a word that has numerous spelling variations), the mystical interpretation of the Hebrew scripture, and originally meant either an occult doctrine or a secret. It was introduced into English in the publication of Cabala, a curious medley of letters and papers of the reigns of James and Charles I that appeared in 1654.[1]

A cabal is a number of people united in some close design, usually to promote their private views and interests in a church, state, or other community, often by intrigue. Cabals are sometimes secret organizations composed of a few designing persons, and at other times are manifestations of emergent behavior in society or governance on the part of a community of persons who have well established public affiliation or kinship. The term can also be used to refer to the designs of such persons or to the practical consequences of their emergent behavior, and also holds a general meaning of intrigue and conspiracy. Its usage carries strong connotations of shadowy corners, back rooms and insidious influence; a cabal is more evil and selective than, say, a faction, which is simply selfish. Because of this negative connotation, few organizations use the term to refer to themselves or their internal subdivisions. Among the exceptions is Discordianism, in which the term is used to refer to an identifiable group within the Discordian tradition.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cabal

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

I've read the same old stuff on the net but what is it, it seams just like all the other New Age type mumbo-jumbo to me. Anyway just wanted to hear what ya'll thought -Cjex

why don't you search this web site. thers quite a bit there.

there's various spellings to try, kabbalah, kabbala, kaballa, kaballah, cabbala, caballah.


I did a review of 1Nephi, 1-10 in regard to it.

enter gemmatria with your search term.

[Lamanite Descendantcaptain of 100]

I've read the same old stuff on the net but what is it, it seams just like all the other New Age type mumbo-jumbo to me. Anyway just wanted to hear what ya'll thought -Cjex

Ive read abit about it heres a link to some LDS stuff and Kaballah http://66.120.63.108/kingdoms/mm.htm

excepts from the book:

“We are taught in the Kabbalah a great deal about the three Adams. There is the celestial Adam, who was Michael before he came here; the terrestrial Adam, who was in Eden; and the telestial Adam, after he had fallen, who was down low. The Kabbalah also tells about Jacob's ladder. Joseph Smith taught that it represented the three stages of initiation in the temple, the three degrees of glory…

Most of what floats around in our modern culture, calling itself Cabala is just occult nonsense.



“That ‘mysteries’ are part and parcel of the Hebrew language itself-and therefore of scripture-is hardly arguable. Even so, Sampson [Written by the Finger of God] makes some enormous extrapolations. He seems to imply that Joseph Smith spent a great deal of time studying the Kabbalah. While one may agree that Joseph Smith understood the patterns placed in the Hebrew scriptures through revelation, there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith was a student of the Jewish Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is a degenerate production of later Judaism. It is a tattered and debased version of the original. The Kabbalah is doctrinal debris. Much like Gnosticism, it is a tattered relic of the original, but it is not the original.”

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

I've read the same old stuff on the net but what is it, it seams just like all the other New Age type mumbo-jumbo to me. Anyway just wanted to hear what ya'll thought -Cjex

Ive read abit about it heres a link to some LDS stuff and Kaballah http://66.120.63.108/kingdoms/mm.htm

excepts from the book:

“We are taught in the Kabbalah a great deal about the three Adams. There is the celestial Adam, who was Michael before he came here; the terrestrial Adam, who was in Eden; and the telestial Adam, after he had fallen, who was down low. The Kabbalah also tells about Jacob's ladder. Joseph Smith taught that it represented the three stages of initiation in the temple, the three degrees of glory…

Most of what floats around in our modern culture, calling itself Cabala is just occult nonsense.



“That ‘mysteries’ are part and parcel of the Hebrew language itself-and therefore of scripture-is hardly arguable. Even so, Sampson [Written by the Finger of God] makes some enormous extrapolations. He seems to imply that Joseph Smith spent a great deal of time studying the Kabbalah. While one may agree that Joseph Smith understood the patterns placed in the Hebrew scriptures through revelation, there is no credible evidence that Joseph Smith was a student of the Jewish Kabbalah. The Kabbalah is a degenerate production of later Judaism. It is a tattered and debased version of the original. The Kabbalah is doctrinal debris. Much like Gnosticism, it is a tattered relic of the original, but it is not the original.”

Hi Mate. I just missed another plane in Brisbane. This is the ONLY airport in the world i miss fligths from, stipid ligths at gateway roundabout. Back in 3 weeks.
Good pictures.

in Refer to your 2nd picture to my post 2 months back where i did 1st nephi. if i weren't in an airport lounge computer (can't see letters on keyboard) i'd look for it)

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

It is Jewish mysticism; it is like the Gnostic Scriptures which are Christian mysticism. It is new age or a better definition is Occult.

[kathyncaptain of 1,000]

It is new age or a better definition is Occult.

You got that right. Those who follow it think it gives them special powers and insight. Well, we know it's just another form of occultic priestcraft.

[kathyncaptain of 1,000]

I think the reason Paul was so adamant about keeping the pagan ideals out of the Christian religion is because it was already known what would happen to the truth when it was tainted (i.e. the true Jewish religion and the mixing of baal, Kabballah). Now most of the Jewish religion is more tradition than scripture. When one adds a little occult it all becomes occult. (um this should've been posted by n'djili, I fogot to logout my mother, kathyn)

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

I have done research for years over 25 years on the Occult with the Churches permission. The Occult is actually Lucifer’s Plan he had in the pre-mortal world. That he is still trying to get on earth. The Kabbalah is one of the forms of the Occult

All the teachings of the Occult that mix in all religions of the world were his attempts to create his Plan on earth. He is right now has a huge plan that is becoming the most popular movement that is 100% occult and uniting world religions and will unite the governments.

Even members of our own church people are falling for the ideas and being slowly drawn away without knowing they are. New Age, Mysticism, Spiritualism, New Spirituality, New Gospel and many others all originate and have the same doctrines as the Occult.

The Occult was taught only by initiate to initiate for thousands of years. Now it is being very openly taught. These are not just silly weird ideas of a few nutcases they are selling books literally in the multi-millions internationally and growing, they are the fastest growing movement on the planet. Kabbalah is just one of the paths that teach the same occult ideas.

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

[shadowcaptain of 1,000]

there's various spellings to try, kabbalah, kabbala, kaballa, kaballah, cabbala, caballah.

Cabbela's

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

it is?

Can I ask what you make of my avatar?

Could it be we misunderstand it?


Would you say the Talmud is occult? What about say, a catholic mass?

Can you explain what you mean by churches permission?

What constitutes "a study of"?

I have no doubt it has been corrupted, but to lay charges against_it?

I have done research for years over 25 years on the Occult with the Churches permission. The Occult is actually Lucifer’s Plan he had in the pre-mortal world. That he is still trying to get on earth. The Kabbalah is one of the forms of the Occult

All the teachings of the Occult that mix in all religions of the world were his attempts to create his Plan on earth. He is right now has a huge plan that is becoming the most popular movement that is 100% occult and uniting world religions and will unite the governments.

Even members of our own church people are falling for the ideas and being slowly drawn away without knowing they are. New Age, Mysticism, Spiritualism, New Spirituality, New Gospel and many others all originate and have the same doctrines as the Occult.

The Occult was taught only by initiate to initiate for thousands of years. Now it is being very openly taught. These are not just silly weird ideas of a few nutcases they are selling books literally in the multi-millions internationally and growing, they are the fastest growing movement on the planet. Kabbalah is just one of the paths that teach the same occult ideas.

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

I can tell that this is a touchy subject for you, but I will try to answer some of your questions.

Yes I will clarify my research and permission.

When I say I have studied, I mean that I have read and researched a vast amount of books and data on this subject continuously for over 25 years. The same as I have done with Church doctrines and prophecy. It is a life research for me; it is my specialty. I have assisted the church and authors on these topics for years.

I was asked by the brethren to met with them and share my research. I met with General Authorities of the LDS church and all my research was discussed with quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency including the Prophet. They met with me for over 4 months every two weeks, going over my data. After doing so we discussed the information and what it meant from the Church’s perspective. We discussed what classifies as Occult and what is in direct opposition to LDS doctrine and how it was at the time impacting the members of the church and how it will in the future. I was given the permission to continue my research because they considered it my mission to do so. And when I asked what they wanted me to do with my research they said tell everyeone.


I will make no judgments in regards to you and what you believe. I have no reference to know what beliefs you hold therefore I will not discuss your avatar..etc…

Anyone that intermingles New Age, Spiritualism, Astrology, Metaphysics Mysticism, Esoteric, Mystical practices, Magic, Divination, and or any other Occult teachings with LDS doctrines are mixing in their religion with truth and lies. There is no extra truth or mysterious out there that is not within the doctrines of the church that we should be trying to acquire. When we mix other mysteries with church doctrines we are treading in very dangerous waters.

The General Authorities said that when they pull from the world they will be more direct on this very subject and it may play a large factor in the separation of wheat and tares do to the intermingling of doctrines of the Occult that the members of the Church have done. They fear they will choose those occult doctrines over the Church.

I do not lay charges against something without evidence. This evidence is actually very easy to verify yourself. If you go online you can find all kinds of pro Kabbala data. The data that is found states it very clearly that it is mysticism.

Here is a simple quote from a quick search I did just now, there are tons of site pro that you can find that say the same thing.

http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/f ... isKabbalah

“Kabbalah is an aspect of Jewish mysticism. It consists of a large body of speculation on the nature of divinity, the creation, the origin and fate of the soul, and the role of human beings. It consists also of meditative, devotional, mystical and magical practices which were taught only to a select few and for this reason Kabbalah is regarded as an esoteric offshoot of Judaism. Some aspects of Kabbalah have been studied and used by non-Jews for several hundred years”

Note the words: mysticism, mystical, magical and esoteric these are all Occult terms.

I am sorry if my posting offended you but I am just stating my research and what the Church has told me. It is your free agency to take what you want out of it.

[buffalo_girlcaptain of 1,000]

Your heated discussion brought to mind a scripture I was prompted to use in my Gospel Principles class Sunday on the subject of AGENCY.

1 Kings 18:21

21 And Elijah came unto all the people, and said, How long halt ye between two opinions? if the Lord be God, follow him: but if Baal, then follow him. And the people answered him not a word.

I do not know anything about the Jewish mystery writings and teachings known as [the] Kabbalah - Cabala.

We are 'tested' on our willingness to apply the principles of the Lord's Gospel in our lives. We are given an increase of knowledge and understanding as we 'prove' our trustworthiness in following the example of our Lord in our personal choices and conduct. We are judged less on what we know than on what we DO.

My understanding of the Gospel at this period of my life is really no different than the understanding I had as an eight year old. I am now able to 'live' some commandments with greater comprehension of the eternal nature of that law than when I was eight, but the LAW or PRINCIPLE remains and is the same.

My knowledge of how that LAW applies to the interconnectedness of God's Creation has expanded, but there is NO mystery or hidden knowledge which I was invited by another human to receive. My spiritual progress is a personal process which occurs between myself, my Creator, and the Holy Ghost.

2 Nephi 28:30
30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

D&C 93:28
28 He that keepeth his commandments receiveth truth and light, until he is glorified in truth and knoweth all things.

One Sunday afternoon I did a 'search' on my mother's direct family lines. A search result for my 7th or 8th greatgrandfather came up in reference to a rare book being sold in England which had belonged in his personal library. That particular line of ancestors were close to British aristocracy from the 10th century through the Danish vikings. They were ever and always sailing ships for them, doing whatever needed to be done to make life miserable for obscure and weak populations throughout the known world.

The title and inscription of this book is revealing to me in regard to WHAT the Cabala may imply in this ongoing struggle between Compulsion and Freedom; the War Begun In Heaven. My life's experience and serendipitous research points to an obscure force which for eons of time created tragic undertows in the currents of history.

So, here is the title and inscription from my 7th or 8th greatgrandfather's book:

Stock number: 10186
Title: Cabala, Sive Scrinia Sacra, Mysteries of State and Government: In Letters of Illustrious Persons and Great Ministers of State as well Forreign as Domestick, In the Reigns of King Henry the Eighth, Q: Elizabeth, K: James, and K: Charles: Wherein Such Secrets of Empire, and Publick Affairs, as were then in Agitation, are clearly Represented; And many remarkable Passages faithfully Collected. Formerly in Two Volumes. To which is added several Choice Letters and Negotiations, no where else Published. Now Collected and Printed together in One Volume.Imprint: London , Printed for G. Bedell and T. Collins., 1663

Description: 310x197mm, [16], 416, [10], plus [2] blank pages. Period brown calf boards, slightly rubbed, recently recornered and rebacked. Five raised bands on spine with gilt rules and title. All edges washed red. Front free end paper browned and frayed at edges, with ownership inscription 'Humfrey Jennens'. Minor nicks at leading edge of imprimatur leaf. Title page in red and black, slightly browned at edges. Rear endpapers also browned and nicked at edges. Contents clean and tight. (Digital photographs may be available on request.)
Price: £ 345.00

Needless to say, I am not able to afford this book. It might prove useful to someone seriously researching the hidden forces seeking to manipulate man's experience in mortality.

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

>>>>>>I can tell that this is a touchy subject for you,

Not at all touchy. Interesting true



>>>>>I have assisted the church and authors on these topics for years.

Agree inspiration needs information. Can I ask why they asked_you?



>>>>>>>I was asked by the brethren to met with them and share my research.

How long ago are we talking and was this during the abuse research (as in abuse external to LDS members- not that individual members could not have been involved) period with Bishop Pace?


>>>>>>I met with General Authorities of the LDS church and all my research was discussed with quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency including the Prophet.

Most Interesting.
Questions- during Benson or when? 80’s…90’s? Cold War, more recent?



>>>>>>They met with me for over 4 months every two weeks, going over my data. After doing so we discussed the information and what it meant from the Church’s perspective.

Why do you think they asked you when they have BYU? How could they be sure of your empirical research or opinions, assumptions and being misinformed?

This is a heavy burden to put on someone. Can I ask who gave you a blessing through this?
Without being disrespectful, I would have thought that something as significant as this would have required a priesthood holder to go through/ endure/ manage. We aren’t talking Halloween style “boo” here, as you well know.



>>>>>We discussed what classifies as Occult and what is in direct opposition to LDS doctrine and how it was at the time impacting the members of the church and how it will in the future.

How did Deseret Book selling Harry Potter books and Halloween being a part of church culture fit within that do you think?



>>>>>>I was given the permission to continue my research because they considered it my mission to do so.

Do you know why they didn’t call you on a mission formally to do that? I would have thought a setting apart would be a required blessing?



>>>>>>And when I asked what they wanted me to do with my research they said tell everyone.

Can I ask what you did with your research?
Can it be loaded onto the downloads section here at LDC?
Do you know why they haven’t echoed your warning call?



>>>>>>>>I will make no judgments in regards to you and what you believe. I have no reference to know what beliefs you hold therefore I will not discuss your avatar..etc…

Thanks, likewise I find most “militaristic” avatars anti-thetical to the gospel of jesus christ but that’s their business



>>>>>>Anyone that intermingles New Age, Spiritualism, Astrology, Metaphysics Mysticism, Esoteric, Mystical practices, Magic, Divination, and or any other Occult teachings with LDS doctrines are mixing in their religion with truth and lies.

Absolutely true. I would expect our church to be vigilant to ensure false teachings do not get further than Sunday talks and lessons by well meaning but uneducated members

How do you reconcile a lot of what Joseph smith did in regards to say Freemasonry and our temple endowment?



>>>>>>>There is no extra truth or mysterious out there that is not within the doctrines of the church that we should be trying to acquire.

“A bible…a Bible, we already have a bible”?
thank goodness Joseph Smith didn’t agree with that when someone came to him with the Papyrus.
I thought the glory of god was intelligence. Line upon line, precept upon precept?
Sorry, I disagree with you here. How for instance did you decide this was your calling?
How did the brethren agree with you that this was your mission?
Are you suggesting that all truth is ONLY within the LDS church?
Where does the priests of Aaron performing temple ritual in the temple prior to Christs return fit into it? Who are they?
And where does personal revelation fit into it? And continuing revelation.
But I would agree that what we have is sufficient.
But i believe yours is a very fundamentalist attitude more akin to catholic philosophy



>>>>>When we mix other mysteries with church doctrines we are treading in very dangerous waters.

Agree.

But Now explain Joseph Smith freemasonry and the temple ceremony



>>>>>>>>>>>>>The General Authorities said that when they pull from the world

What does pull mean?




>>>>>>>>they will be more direct on this very subject and it may play a large factor in the separation of wheat and tares do to the intermingling of doctrines of the Occult that the members of the Church have done.


I would think that is the obligation is to preserve it as it goes along rather than let is adulterate. Who is responsible for doctrine?



>>>>They fear they will choose those occult doctrines over the Church.

Can I ask how you think championing Dick Cheney at BYU for 18 standing ovations help members avoid the occult?

Can I please have your comment on these thank you

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ucll ... shortfilms

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=35918




>>>>>>I do not lay charges against something without evidence. This evidence is actually very easy to verify yourself. If you go online you can find all kinds of pro Kabbala data. The data that is found states it very clearly that it is mysticism.

And er, you don’t think it came from somewhere?

I mean I can show you the first 10 verses, 1-10, in our book of mormon which CLEARLY show a structure which follows my avatar. Nephi himself said- language/ learning/ Jews/ Egyptians? Huh, what was that? Was that occult?
And Alma 42, and so on and on. The entire book was written to a method of a lost knowledge

I agree most truths have been lost. But to say that what we have today is pure occult is ignorant.

I mean if you wan to play that line please explain how we have a pentagram- which along with Baphomet Goat has to be the #1 most recognised symbol of Satan- right above the entry to the Salt lake Temple. Eh?. Let me guess, you will say it wasn’t until the 15th century it was corrupted, prior to then it was Uomo- mankinds search for inspiration from the heavens



>>>>>>>Here is a simple quote from a quick search I did just now, there are tons of site pro that you can find that say the same thing. http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/f ... isKabbalah

I will look



>>>>>>>Kabbalah is an aspect of Jewish mysticism. It consists of a large body of speculation on the nature of divinity, the creation, the origin and fate of the soul, and the role of human beings. It consists also of meditative, devotional, mystical and magical practices which were taught only to a select few and for this reason Kabbalah is regarded as an esoteric offshoot of Judaism. Some aspects of Kabbalah have been studied and used by non-Jews for several hundred years”
Note the words: mysticism, mystical, magical and esoteric these are all Occult terms.


I agree that this is dangerous stuff and is best left avoided. having said that

The same could be charged against our practices and beliefs, from a sacrament- “drink my blood eat my body”- to baptising dead people to fast and pray “if you have faith and say unto this mountain move it will be moved”

or against christianity- i mean it things god is a cloud of gas that occupies space, believed in ex nihilo and well, no eternal marriage, hell and heaven only, 1 god only in 3 forms, shall i go on. "anything less than this is from satan"



Meditative- LDS PRAYER
DevotionaL- LDS EVERYTHING
Mystical – WELL, AS YOU SEE BELOW THAT EXPLAINS THE LDS PRETTY WELL
1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.



magical
1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. HMMMMMMMMMMMM, MOST EVERTHING WE DO. PRAYER, FASTING FOR, SETTING APARTS, BLESSINGS, PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS, TEMPLE CEREMONIES,

2. a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. AGREE THIS IS NOT SAFE GROUND, BUT OUR GARMENTS? PRAYERS? BLESSINGS, ANOINTINGS, LIAHONA, URIM, THUMMIN?


b. The charms, spells, and rituals so used. AGREE NOT GOOD IN WORLDLY SENSE
3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. AGREE
4. A mysterious quality of enchantment: AGREE
practices

could this have been a former truth lost, and then corrupted and given a name?


>>>>>>I am sorry if my posting offended you but I am just stating my research and what the Church has told me.

Why do you think the church told you and not me/ us?
What became of your research?
What do you think they are waiting for?




>>>>>>>>It is your free agency to take what you want out of it.

Hang on. This is about the only thing that irks me, its quite patronising.
I mean come on that’s a truism so superfluous its redundant
Do you want me to end an email saying “its up to you to decide if you want to love people like Christ and I do”?

Nice to have you aboard, keen to read your comments Sis

[ndjilicaptain of 100]

[Stevecaptain of 10]

ndjili

Excellent point on Freemasons and Joseph Smith.

The Kaballah is not approved by the Jewish faith; from what I understand, it is a branch that went its own way. It is the Jewish mystics that follow it (that idea has been written above somewhere else).

In reading this whole post I did find something I disagree with and feel was off topic.

AussieOi

You asked Bella …..“Why do you think they asked you when they have BYU? How could they be sure of your empirical research or opinions, assumptions and being misinformed?

This is a heavy burden to put on someone. Can I ask who gave you a blessing through this?
Without being disrespectful, I would have thought that something as significant as this would have required a priesthood holder to go through/ endure/ manage. We aren’t talking Halloween style “boo” here, as you well know.

“Can I ask what you did with your research?
Can it be loaded onto the downloads section here at LDC?
Do you know why they haven’t echoed your warning call?”

You sure have a lot of question for a “Sister” when it is clear by your statements you do not respect sisters having leadership roles in the Church or being used by God or his church authorities….What about Sheri Dew and others like her. They are respected by the authorities. Why attack a woman? I wonder what the response would have been if a priesthood holder had said the same things.

My apologies Bella. I am sorry about the comments, but not all men feel this way. I am shocked that others have not spoken up. Please stand up brothers and sisters when such things are said. We are all instruments in God’s hands, male or female. The General Authorities are inspired from God so if they supported your work Bella, then they were told by God that you data was right. That is a great experience. I am sure you find people, men especially, jealous of that fact and therefore being contentious. Just keep in mind what the GA’s said to you. I am sure they were respectful toward you. I would advise not to get baited in for more attacks and ignore these kind of jabs in the future.

Back to the subject. The term of Occult is used to describe things that are “hidden.” That does not always mean Satanic rituals etc…. It can be that too, just not always. So I am gathering that what is being said is that the Kaballah teachings are occult to the extent that they are hidden mysteries of Satan twisted in with Jewish doctrine, not outwardly Satan worship but that is ultimately what its followers are doing unawares. They are twisting truth and it is dangerous to dabble. That is what the Church has always said. So I don’t see AussieOi’s issue here; the Church has always echoed the same warning ….I have heard it. They may not name each occult group or teaching but they make it clear what we should or should not follow. Actually any spiritual doctrine, principle or teaching that is not taught by the Scriptures or the Church’s authorities is heresy and probably Satanic in origin. The essence of the LDS faith from its beginning was a community of believers who embrace God’s revealed truth as revealed by his chosen prophets. LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it. Anyone who believes there are should probably reconsider even being a Mormon. The LDS church is not a “good fit” for someone who wishes to reinvent its teachings by mingling them with Eastern mysticism or esoteric speculations. The only reason I can see for arguing in defense of such things is that the people arguing are participating in the very things that the Church’s leaders have told us not to. I hope that is not the case.

By the way, it is not at all patronizing to state that someone is free to take what they want from your comments. If it is, then so is the 11th article of faith, which basically says that we “the Mormons” grant the world the right to believe as they wish. Bella, you were not guilty of being patronizing, on contrary, you were trying to be affirmative of your respect for someone else’ agency in a world that too many people have no respect for individual liberty.

The word “fundament” means “foundation”. Be proud of being called a “fundamentalist” or “orthodox”. Such are those who stay true to the original foundational doctrines of the church as revealed and restored by the Lord Jesus Christ. Similarly the LDS faith asserts that the US constitution was divinely inspired in its original form and is also one of those “fundamental” or “foundational” truths that we should be willing to stand up and defend. Don’t e ashamed of being a conformist when it comes to God’s truth. Don’t seek your “own truth” as the new age teaches. Seek the Lord’ truth.

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

But Now explain Joseph Smith freemasonry and the temple ceremony

Um maybe just maybe the temple ceremonies were um stolen by satan first, .

agree emphatically and absolutely on that (which is our only explanation by the way), which is why i also wrote....
--------------------------------------
And er, you don’t think it came from somewhere?

I mean I can show you the first 10 verses, 1-10, in our book of mormon which CLEARLY show a structure which follows my avatar. Nephi himself said- language/ learning/ Jews/ Egyptians? Huh, what was that? Was that occult?
And Alma 42, and so on and on. The entire book was written to a method of a lost knowledge

I agree most truths have been lost. But to say that what we have today is pure occult is ignorant.

I mean if you wan to play that line please explain how we have a pentagram- which along with Baphomet Goat has to be the #1 most recognised symbol of Satan- right above the entry to the Salt lake Temple. Eh?. Let me guess, you will say it wasn’t until the 15th century it was corrupted, prior to then it was Uomo- mankinds search for inspiration from the heavens

-------------------------------------

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

[quote="buffalo_girl"]Your heated discussion brought to mind a Needless to say, I am not able to afford this book. [quote]


heated? you gotta be kidding me Sis!

I'm really enjoying this thread. i am hoping to learn fro Bella here. righ tnow as i wait for her reply i am erring on here being a well meaning person prone to exhaggeration and misunderstanding.

i get that when i read anything from someone who says " i have a calling" and "the brethren read my stuff" etc

whie we should be wary of things of darkness not everything is in absolutes. as i pointed out freemasonry, garments, baptism for dead, anointings, pentagram, shall I go on?

or do we suggest that all truth is in the church?

that is not to say i dont believe this kaballah stuff is extremely dangerous. i personally think it is a corruption of true principles. and did i mention the word corruption.

of course best to stay away. but equally dangerous to dismiss all unknown things as darnkess and dangerous. the glory of god is.......what again?


Your comment >>>>>"It might prove useful to someone seriously researching the hidden forces seeking to manipulate man's experience in mortality" is disturbing in that i'd hope that no one would want to do that. by the same token lets not be naive that people arent doing or seeking to do that, for all the wrong reasons.

on the other side of that coin i could hold that we as LDS do exactly that when we use the power of fasting and prayer to effect (manipulate) man's experience in mortality. to achieve that yes, we use known and understood forces (including the spirit, the holy ghost, angels, the priesthood, other people). did you perhaps pray for the leaders of the country in your last prayers? isn't that what we are all doing as well?

motivation is one discussion

appropriate tools another

to lambast a tool and claim it is of the devil may be correct, but my understanding is he is a corrupter and an imitator, as much a creator.

in the meantime we are told to pore over the scriptures, to feast upon, unlock the mysteries, fast over them for increased wisdom and understanding.

was the guy who discovered chiasmus or hebraisms told he was entering dark territory i wonder?

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

>>>>>Excellent point on Freemasons and Joseph Smith.

agree

>>>>>The Kaballah is not approved by the Jewish faith;

Neither is Christ. Or god for that matter. Look it up. They believe god is a cloud of gas occupying all space. What the heck have they become anyway?
Can I add “Mormonism” is not approved by “Christianity” don’t believe me? Go ask the Southern Baptist convention or your local Salvo



>>>>>>>>You asked Bella …..“
Why do you think they asked you when they have BYU? How could they be sure of your empirical research or opinions, assumptions and being misinformed?
This is a heavy burden to put on someone. Can I ask who gave you a blessing through this?
Without being disrespectful, I would have thought that something as significant as this would have required a priesthood holder to go through/ endure/ manage. We aren’t talking Halloween style “boo” here, as you well know.
“Can I ask what you did with your research?
Can it be loaded onto the downloads section here at LDC?
Do you know why they haven’t echoed your warning call?”

You sure have a lot of question for a “Sister” when it is clear by your statements you do not respect sisters having leadership roles in the Church or being used by God or his church authorities…>>>>>>>>.


Hang on, I think you have read something that is not supported. I’m not going to say “you show me where” all I am going to say is that I’m about the last person you want to suggest is patriarchal in this church. I’m the only one I know who EVER invites the Relief Society President into PEC. No more on this topic it is a sore point for mine. God has said no priesthood for sisters in this existence. Not “so ignore them and stick them in primary and let them make their Doylies”

Now, back to your comments that I have many questions to ask. Yes, I certainly do. Isn’t this a web site devoted basically to exposing the LDGs and doing something about it? We don’t believe that Satan and his 40billion 1/3rd hosts are out there? This is not a thread about Secret Combinations? All I am saying is that I have a high burden of substantiation when a person makes statements suggesting they have been an agent of the church to research the Occult, that their research was “approved” and they were instructed to go and tell members about it. Let me tell you from my experience over at RKY web site that there are a lot of simpletons out there who will believe anything. ANYTHING, if it sounds remotely authoritative from the brethren. You probably got the email today calling for running away to live in the woods in a tent city. Shall I say any more? Or do you take such statements at face value?

Alternatively

You DON’T think the Brethren would have utilised the resources of BYU?
You DON’T think this would be a heavy burden to put on someone. Researching the Occult on behalf of the Church of the Lamb?
You DON’T think a blessing would have been required to endure the adversary in this?


>>>>>>What about Sheri Dew and others like her. They are respected by the authorities.

(Until she went to Deseret book-another discussion) I agree, Great woman there.


>>>>>Why attack a woman? I wonder what the response would have been if a priesthood holder had said the same things.

I would have asked “why you”
Is the priesthood only for service or can it be invoked for protection also?
Would you send someone out on such a charge without EVERY possible protection available? I would have thought that being a priesthood bearer affords a degree of additional protection. Well, at least that is my understanding of the doctrine of our church



>>>>>>>>>>My apologies Bella. I am sorry about the comments, but not all men feel this way.

First of all you are speaking for me, Now you are speaking on behalf of other men. Perhaps you could have asked me to clarify?


>>>>>>>>>I am shocked that others have not spoken up. Please stand up brothers and sisters when such things are said.

Perhaps they are not seeing what you see? Perhaps they recognise the depth of mystery, Babylon and abomination and think that it makes sense that a priesthood holder would be assigned this onerous task.




>>>>>We are all instruments in God’s hands, male or female.

agree


>>>>>>The General Authorities are inspired from God so if they supported your work Bella, then they were told by God that you data was right. That is a great experience. I am sure you find people, men especially, jealous of that fact and therefore being contentious. Just keep in mind what the GA’s said to you. I am sure they were respectful toward you. I would advise not to get baited in for more attacks and ignore these kind of jabs in the future.


And I would suggest that you are making very generous assumptions without seeking either confirmation or clarification on the integrity of what bella is saying, which could open you up to disappointment- as it has numerous times in the past.



>>>>>>>>Back to the subject. The term of Occult is used to describe things that are “hidden.” That does not always mean Satanic rituals etc…. It can be that too, just not always. So I am gathering that what is being said is that the Kaballah teachings are occult to the extent that they are hidden mysteries of Satan twisted in with Jewish doctrine,

I’d say you are back to front- hidden mysteries of possibly Jewish doctrine twisted by Satan



>>>>>>>>not outwardly Satan worship but that is ultimately what its followers are doing unawares. They are twisting truth and it is dangerous to dabble. That is what the Church has always said. So I don’t see AussieOi’s issue here; the Church has always echoed the same warning ….I have heard it. They may not name each occult group or teaching but they make it clear what we should or should not follow.


You’re talking to the guy who follows the handbook of instructions to the letter. who thinks halloween is inappropriate.I’d make a fair defender of the faith I’d think. But that does not mean I discount anything automatically




>>>>>>Actually any spiritual doctrine, principle or teaching that is not taught by the Scriptures or the Church’s authorities is heresy and probably Satanic in origin.

Well I disagree that it is heresy but agree that the bulk probably is Satanic in origin.
To heresy all I can say is “a bible a bible”….?
Where is continuing revelation in your church or life? Where personal revelation? Read up on what joseph smith said about the apocrapha for starters


>>>>>>The essence of the LDS faith from its beginning was a community of believers who embrace God’s revealed truth as revealed by his chosen prophets. LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it.

Are you kidding me? Are you absolutely kidding me?
There are NO truths beyond what has been revealed?
Are you protestant or something?
This is completely and absolutely antithetical to our doctrine and faith.
Can I refer you to our ARTICLES OF FAITH. In particular the one about all that God has revealed, and WILL reveal. WILL reveal. Its in our scriptures, go look it up



>>>>>Anyone who believes there are should probably reconsider even being a Mormon.

I’m getting a message here


>>>>>>The LDS church is not a “good fit” for someone who wishes to reinvent its teachings by mingling them with Eastern mysticism or esoteric speculations.

Sounds to me is what you are doing


>>>>>>>The only reason I can see for arguing in defense of such things is that the people arguing are participating in the very things that the Church’s leaders have told us not to. I hope that is not the case.

No one is arguing. You are swallowing something VERY, very significant without asking for additional information, plus unless you can clarify your comment that you are perpetuating false doctrine that “The essence of the LDS faith from its beginning was a community of believers who embrace God’s revealed truth as revealed by his chosen prophets. LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it.”



>>>>>>The word “fundament” means “foundation”. Be proud of being called a “fundamentalist”

I agree. Personally I try to put the FUN back into the MENTAL


>>>>> Don’t seek your “own truth” as the new age teaches. Seek the Lord’ truth.

Can I just finish this by asking what you think of Figure 11 in Fascimile 2
Fig. 11. Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen.

[GaiaHi, I'm new.]

Hello Everyone --

Kabbalah (there are a number of alternate spellings that have been used in various esoteric/ metaphysical systems) is a Jewish mystical system on the nature of the Universe, that is believed to have originated sometime around the 16th Century, and was subsequently incorporated into many different religious/ metaphysical systems. It originally required that a man be at least 40 years old and married, before he could begin study of Kabbalah.

For more on Kabbalah, please see;

http://www.kabbalah.info/
http://www.kabbalah.net/


Few LDS know about it, but Joseph Smith is believed by many historians to have studied Kabbalah -- See for example, "Joseph Smith and Kabbalah: The Occult Connection" (PLEASE remember that the term, "occult" merely means "Hidden" -- because most mystical/ metaphysical systems have "hidden" truths that are revealed only to Initiates -- Even Jesus withheld certain information/ teachings from the masses - See Matthew 13:12-13) --

For more on Joseph Smith and Kabbalah, please see: http://www.gnosis.org/jskabb1.htm

Blessings - Gaia_d@yahoo.com

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

>>>>>>I can tell that this is a touchy subject for you,

Not at all touchy. Interesting true



>>>>>I have assisted the church and authors on these topics for years.

Agree inspiration needs information. Can I ask why they asked_you?



>>>>>>>I was asked by the brethren to met with them and share my research.

How long ago are we talking and was this during the abuse research (as in abuse external to LDS members- not that individual members could not have been involved) period with Bishop Pace?


>>>>>>I met with General Authorities of the LDS church and all my research was discussed with quorum of the Twelve Apostles and the First Presidency including the Prophet.

Most Interesting.
Questions- during Benson or when? 80’s…90’s? Cold War, more recent?



>>>>>>They met with me for over 4 months every two weeks, going over my data. After doing so we discussed the information and what it meant from the Church’s perspective.

Why do you think they asked you when they have BYU? How could they be sure of your empirical research or opinions, assumptions and being misinformed?

This is a heavy burden to put on someone. Can I ask who gave you a blessing through this?
Without being disrespectful, I would have thought that something as significant as this would have required a priesthood holder to go through/ endure/ manage. We aren’t talking Halloween style “boo” here, as you well know.



>>>>>We discussed what classifies as Occult and what is in direct opposition to LDS doctrine and how it was at the time impacting the members of the church and how it will in the future.

How did Deseret Book selling Harry Potter books and Halloween being a part of church culture fit within that do you think?



>>>>>>I was given the permission to continue my research because they considered it my mission to do so.

Do you know why they didn’t call you on a mission formally to do that? I would have thought a setting apart would be a required blessing?



>>>>>>And when I asked what they wanted me to do with my research they said tell everyone.

Can I ask what you did with your research?
Can it be loaded onto the downloads section here at LDC?
Do you know why they haven’t echoed your warning call?



>>>>>>>>I will make no judgments in regards to you and what you believe. I have no reference to know what beliefs you hold therefore I will not discuss your avatar..etc…

Thanks, likewise I find most “militaristic” avatars anti-thetical to the gospel of jesus christ but that’s their business



>>>>>>Anyone that intermingles New Age, Spiritualism, Astrology, Metaphysics Mysticism, Esoteric, Mystical practices, Magic, Divination, and or any other Occult teachings with LDS doctrines are mixing in their religion with truth and lies.

Absolutely true. I would expect our church to be vigilant to ensure false teachings do not get further than Sunday talks and lessons by well meaning but uneducated members

How do you reconcile a lot of what Joseph smith did in regards to say Freemasonry and our temple endowment?



>>>>>>>There is no extra truth or mysterious out there that is not within the doctrines of the church that we should be trying to acquire.

“A bible…a Bible, we already have a bible”?
thank goodness Joseph Smith didn’t agree with that when someone came to him with the Papyrus.
I thought the glory of god was intelligence. Line upon line, precept upon precept?
Sorry, I disagree with you here. How for instance did you decide this was your calling?
How did the brethren agree with you that this was your mission?
Are you suggesting that all truth is ONLY within the LDS church?
Where does the priests of Aaron performing temple ritual in the temple prior to Christs return fit into it? Who are they?
And where does personal revelation fit into it? And continuing revelation.
But I would agree that what we have is sufficient.
But i believe yours is a very fundamentalist attitude more akin to catholic philosophy



>>>>>When we mix other mysteries with church doctrines we are treading in very dangerous waters.

Agree.

But Now explain Joseph Smith freemasonry and the temple ceremony



>>>>>>>>>>>>>The General Authorities said that when they pull from the world

What does pull mean?




>>>>>>>>they will be more direct on this very subject and it may play a large factor in the separation of wheat and tares do to the intermingling of doctrines of the Occult that the members of the Church have done.


I would think that is the obligation is to preserve it as it goes along rather than let is adulterate. Who is responsible for doctrine?



>>>>They fear they will choose those occult doctrines over the Church.

Can I ask how you think championing Dick Cheney at BYU for 18 standing ovations help members avoid the occult?

Can I please have your comment on these thank you

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1ucll ... shortfilms

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index. ... opic=35918




>>>>>>I do not lay charges against something without evidence. This evidence is actually very easy to verify yourself. If you go online you can find all kinds of pro Kabbala data. The data that is found states it very clearly that it is mysticism.

And er, you don’t think it came from somewhere?

I mean I can show you the first 10 verses, 1-10, in our book of mormon which CLEARLY show a structure which follows my avatar. Nephi himself said- language/ learning/ Jews/ Egyptians? Huh, what was that? Was that occult?
And Alma 42, and so on and on. The entire book was written to a method of a lost knowledge

I agree most truths have been lost. But to say that what we have today is pure occult is ignorant.

I mean if you wan to play that line please explain how we have a pentagram- which along with Baphomet Goat has to be the #1 most recognised symbol of Satan- right above the entry to the Salt lake Temple. Eh?. Let me guess, you will say it wasn’t until the 15th century it was corrupted, prior to then it was Uomo- mankinds search for inspiration from the heavens



>>>>>>>Here is a simple quote from a quick search I did just now, there are tons of site pro that you can find that say the same thing. http://www.digital-brilliance.com/kab/f ... isKabbalah

I will look



>>>>>>>Kabbalah is an aspect of Jewish mysticism. It consists of a large body of speculation on the nature of divinity, the creation, the origin and fate of the soul, and the role of human beings. It consists also of meditative, devotional, mystical and magical practices which were taught only to a select few and for this reason Kabbalah is regarded as an esoteric offshoot of Judaism. Some aspects of Kabbalah have been studied and used by non-Jews for several hundred years”
Note the words: mysticism, mystical, magical and esoteric these are all Occult terms.


I agree that this is dangerous stuff and is best left avoided. having said that

The same could be charged against our practices and beliefs, from a sacrament- “drink my blood eat my body”- to baptising dead people to fast and pray “if you have faith and say unto this mountain move it will be moved”

or against christianity- i mean it things god is a cloud of gas that occupies space, believed in ex nihilo and well, no eternal marriage, hell and heaven only, 1 god only in 3 forms, shall i go on. "anything less than this is from satan"



Meditative- LDS PRAYER
DevotionaL- LDS EVERYTHING
Mystical – WELL, AS YOU SEE BELOW THAT EXPLAINS THE LDS PRETTY WELL
1. Of or having a spiritual reality or import not apparent to the intelligence or senses.
2. Of, relating to, or stemming from direct communion with ultimate reality or God: a mystical religion.
3. Enigmatic; obscure: mystical theories about the securities market.
4. Of or relating to mystic rites or practices.



magical
1. The art that purports to control or forecast natural events, effects, or forces by invoking the supernatural. HMMMMMMMMMMMM, MOST EVERTHING WE DO. PRAYER, FASTING FOR, SETTING APARTS, BLESSINGS, PATRIARCHAL BLESSINGS, TEMPLE CEREMONIES,

2. a. The practice of using charms, spells, or rituals to attempt to produce supernatural effects or control events in nature. AGREE THIS IS NOT SAFE GROUND, BUT OUR GARMENTS? PRAYERS? BLESSINGS, ANOINTINGS, LIAHONA, URIM, THUMMIN?


b. The charms, spells, and rituals so used. AGREE NOT GOOD IN WORLDLY SENSE
3. The exercise of sleight of hand or conjuring for entertainment. AGREE
4. A mysterious quality of enchantment: AGREE
practices

could this have been a former truth lost, and then corrupted and given a name?


>>>>>>I am sorry if my posting offended you but I am just stating my research and what the Church has told me.

Why do you think the church told you and not me/ us?
What became of your research?
What do you think they are waiting for?




>>>>>>>>It is your free agency to take what you want out of it.

Hang on. This is about the only thing that irks me, its quite patronising.
I mean come on that’s a truism so superfluous its redundant
Do you want me to end an email saying “its up to you to decide if you want to love people like Christ and I do”?

Nice to have you aboard, keen to read your comments Sis

Amen!! Thanks.

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

You sure have a lot of question for a “Sister” when it is clear by your statements you do not respect sisters having leadership roles in the Church or being used by God or his church authorities….What about Sheri Dew and others like her. They are respected by the authorities. Why attack a woman? I wonder what the response would have been if a priesthood holder had said the same things.
I myself probably would have been more harsh. But then, I saw nothing whatsoever in AussieOi's post that fit this, unless it was edited out? To which parts are you referring?
Baited? No, it's answering a few simple questions to back up rumors, like everyone on a board is supposed to do.

Back to the subject. The term of Occult is used to describe things that are “hidden.”
Actually, "occult" is used to describe things that are hidden; "Occult" is for things Rosabella studies. It could be said that "Occult" is a subset of "occult". Most people who study the occult and the Occult are aware of this.

Actually any spiritual doctrine, principle or teaching that is not taught by the Scriptures or the Church’s authorities is heresy and probably Satanic in origin.
??

LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it. Anyone who believes there are should probably reconsider even being a Mormon.
Darn. I guess I'll have to leave with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, and all those other heretics.
Steve, let me ask, how do you feel and what do you think about revelation?

[JohnnyLcaptain of 1,000]

>>>>>Excellent point on Freemasons and Joseph Smith.

agree

>>>>>The Kaballah is not approved by the Jewish faith;

Neither is Christ. Or god for that matter. Look it up. They believe god is a cloud of gas occupying all space. What the heck have they become anyway?
Can I add “Mormonism” is not approved by “Christianity” don’t believe me? Go ask the Southern Baptist convention or your local Salvo



>>>>>>>>You asked Bella …..“
Why do you think they asked you when they have BYU? How could they be sure of your empirical research or opinions, assumptions and being misinformed?
This is a heavy burden to put on someone. Can I ask who gave you a blessing through this?
Without being disrespectful, I would have thought that something as significant as this would have required a priesthood holder to go through/ endure/ manage. We aren’t talking Halloween style “boo” here, as you well know.
“Can I ask what you did with your research?
Can it be loaded onto the downloads section here at LDC?
Do you know why they haven’t echoed your warning call?”

You sure have a lot of question for a “Sister” when it is clear by your statements you do not respect sisters having leadership roles in the Church or being used by God or his church authorities…>>>>>>>>.


Hang on, I think you have read something that is not supported. I’m not going to say “you show me where” all I am going to say is that I’m about the last person you want to suggest is patriarchal in this church. I’m the only one I know who EVER invites the Relief Society President into PEC. No more on this topic it is a sore point for mine. God has said no priesthood for sisters in this existence. Not “so ignore them and stick them in primary and let them make their Doylies”

Now, back to your comments that I have many questions to ask. Yes, I certainly do. Isn’t this a web site devoted basically to exposing the LDGs and doing something about it? We don’t believe that Satan and his 40billion 1/3rd hosts are out there? This is not a thread about Secret Combinations? All I am saying is that I have a high burden of substantiation when a person makes statements suggesting they have been an agent of the church to research the Occult, that their research was “approved” and they were instructed to go and tell members about it. Let me tell you from my experience over at RKY web site that there are a lot of simpletons out there who will believe anything. ANYTHING, if it sounds remotely authoritative from the brethren. You probably got the email today calling for running away to live in the woods in a tent city. Shall I say any more? Or do you take such statements at face value?

Alternatively

You DON’T think the Brethren would have utilised the resources of BYU?
You DON’T think this would be a heavy burden to put on someone. Researching the Occult on behalf of the Church of the Lamb?
You DON’T think a blessing would have been required to endure the adversary in this?


>>>>>>What about Sheri Dew and others like her. They are respected by the authorities.

(Until she went to Deseret book-another discussion) I agree, Great woman there.


>>>>>Why attack a woman? I wonder what the response would have been if a priesthood holder had said the same things.

I would have asked “why you”
Is the priesthood only for service or can it be invoked for protection also?
Would you send someone out on such a charge without EVERY possible protection available? I would have thought that being a priesthood bearer affords a degree of additional protection. Well, at least that is my understanding of the doctrine of our church



>>>>>>>>>>My apologies Bella. I am sorry about the comments, but not all men feel this way.

First of all you are speaking for me, Now you are speaking on behalf of other men. Perhaps you could have asked me to clarify?


>>>>>>>>>I am shocked that others have not spoken up. Please stand up brothers and sisters when such things are said.

Perhaps they are not seeing what you see? Perhaps they recognise the depth of mystery, Babylon and abomination and think that it makes sense that a priesthood holder would be assigned this onerous task.




>>>>>We are all instruments in God’s hands, male or female.

agree


>>>>>>The General Authorities are inspired from God so if they supported your work Bella, then they were told by God that you data was right. That is a great experience. I am sure you find people, men especially, jealous of that fact and therefore being contentious. Just keep in mind what the GA’s said to you. I am sure they were respectful toward you. I would advise not to get baited in for more attacks and ignore these kind of jabs in the future.


And I would suggest that you are making very generous assumptions without seeking either confirmation or clarification on the integrity of what bella is saying, which could open you up to disappointment- as it has numerous times in the past.



>>>>>>>>Back to the subject. The term of Occult is used to describe things that are “hidden.” That does not always mean Satanic rituals etc…. It can be that too, just not always. So I am gathering that what is being said is that the Kaballah teachings are occult to the extent that they are hidden mysteries of Satan twisted in with Jewish doctrine,

I’d say you are back to front- hidden mysteries of possibly Jewish doctrine twisted by Satan



>>>>>>>>not outwardly Satan worship but that is ultimately what its followers are doing unawares. They are twisting truth and it is dangerous to dabble. That is what the Church has always said. So I don’t see AussieOi’s issue here; the Church has always echoed the same warning ….I have heard it. They may not name each occult group or teaching but they make it clear what we should or should not follow.


You’re talking to the guy who follows the handbook of instructions to the letter. who thinks halloween is inappropriate.I’d make a fair defender of the faith I’d think. But that does not mean I discount anything automatically




>>>>>>Actually any spiritual doctrine, principle or teaching that is not taught by the Scriptures or the Church’s authorities is heresy and probably Satanic in origin.

Well I disagree that it is heresy but agree that the bulk probably is Satanic in origin.
To heresy all I can say is “a bible a bible”….?
Where is continuing revelation in your church or life? Where personal revelation? Read up on what joseph smith said about the apocrapha for starters


>>>>>>The essence of the LDS faith from its beginning was a community of believers who embrace God’s revealed truth as revealed by his chosen prophets. LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it.

Are you kidding me? Are you absolutely kidding me?
There are NO truths beyond what has been revealed?
Are you protestant or something?
This is completely and absolutely antithetical to our doctrine and faith.
Can I refer you to our ARTICLES OF FAITH. In particular the one about all that God has revealed, and WILL reveal. WILL reveal. Its in our scriptures, go look it up



>>>>>Anyone who believes there are should probably reconsider even being a Mormon.

I’m getting a message here


>>>>>>The LDS church is not a “good fit” for someone who wishes to reinvent its teachings by mingling them with Eastern mysticism or esoteric speculations.

Sounds to me is what you are doing


>>>>>>>The only reason I can see for arguing in defense of such things is that the people arguing are participating in the very things that the Church’s leaders have told us not to. I hope that is not the case.

No one is arguing. You are swallowing something VERY, very significant without asking for additional information, plus unless you can clarify your comment that you are perpetuating false doctrine that “The essence of the LDS faith from its beginning was a community of believers who embrace God’s revealed truth as revealed by his chosen prophets. LDS doctrine is the fullness of the restored Gospel. There are no other “truths” beyond it.”



>>>>>>The word “fundament” means “foundation”. Be proud of being called a “fundamentalist”

I agree. Personally I try to put the FUN back into the MENTAL


>>>>> Don’t seek your “own truth” as the new age teaches. Seek the Lord’ truth.

Can I just finish this by asking what you think of Figure 11 in Fascimile 2
Fig. 11. Also. If the world can find out these numbers, so let it be. Amen.

Wow, thanks again for saving me tons of time... Maybe even double tons, if my computer crashed before I could post...

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

The short answer is it is the worship of Lucifer which was started by the JEWS and has it roots back in the old testament. They started to worship the Sun and Stars ect.... everything else is just it's mysticism.

[AussieOicaptain of 1,000]

The short answer is it is the worship of Lucifer which was started by the JEWS and has it roots back in the old testament. They started to worship the Sun and Stars ect.... everything else is just it's mysticism.

yeah i dont know if i can disagree with that
but i do believe that it is a corruption of something with merit
anyone spending half an hour looking into hebrew, greek, english, word/ number would see there is a hand in it

even 1 Nephi 1:1-10
i mean it is written in a formulaic manner
and Alma 42- if anyone spends an hour learning about the caballic tree of life and then considers Alma 42, their testimony of the BofM would go through the roof

i agree not to delve, - pointless.
but not to consider its roots?
its like being an LDS and not even looking into the JST. why would an LDS not read it?
ditto the other "lost gospels". sure we dont build our doctrine around them but there is much to consider in them all the same

i mean jewish/ hebrew scripts follow a formula
anyone with a mind to learn would see so much divine guidance in our scriptures if they just wanted to learn more
D&C4
Alma 42
the VERY beginning of the book of mormon...the CORNERSTONE of our religion
its like some guy discovers chiasmus and we all go "wow" and then don't actually look at it for ourselves
we have such short attention spans

1Nephi 1:1-9/11 is quite possible some of the most breathtakingly testimony validating scripture we could ever want to read.
i fail to understand why the church doesn't explore these things beyond the token 2 page piece in Ensign.

(Bella was great BTW- not a crank, very switched on)

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Indeed it is hard to say where to draw the line. We know that Enoch was fiven a "language" by which he could command mountains to move, etc. and I can just about guarantee you that if someone was doing anything of the sort today, probably 90% of the church would be wetting themselves and saying they were messing around with things that should not be, Unless it was the prophet or a member of the QoT, then maybe cut that down to 50% or less.