The Strongest Public Domain Evidence of 9-11 Fraud

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Mark, I don't care if RT is as communist as they come - the fact is that they deliver truth and facts which our media either won't touch, address or investigate - like as was said above - truth is truth, no matter the source, period. In fact, I would trust RT over our mainstream media any day... and that is sad and pathetic for ours. In the clip above I posted with Tarpley on Hannity and Colmes, Webster is telling 100% truth while Hannity and Colmes insult him and interupt with attacks and what news network is it? Fox. RT has had numerous individuals on their network who are experts and courageous in the realm of 9/11 and you know what they do? They ask questions to their guests without attacking to discredit and they aren't afraid to put the real meat out there such as the evidence of nano-thermate, molten metal under all 3 buildings, etc. Our media is a joke and they are ignorant cowards with nothing 'investigative' about them at all - if it comes from Washington, DC, that's good enough for them - RT runs circles around our so-called 'media'.

Tarpley outright lied when he proclaimed that Building 7 was the only steel framed building history that came down with no plane hitting it and no fire. Anyone with a lick of sense knows that building 7 had sustained major fire damage from fires that had been burning for several hours. Are you seriously going to try and defend this guy Col? This just shows me that when someone has their minds made up they will discount anything that contradicts their premise no matter how many facts come forward to contradict that mindset.

You seriously need to do some research on communist propaganda outlets in the history of the Soviet Union Col. For you to say that a communist outlet really doesn't matter to you shows an amazing lack of understanding what communist propaganda outlets are designed to do.

Yes, I will admit - Tarpley was not totally accurate when he said that there were no fires in building 7 - there were a few on some floors, but nothing even remotely close to resembling a raging inferno. This actually brings up a very good question Mark... why and how do you suppose debris from the WTC's which were over 150 yards away is going to ignite fires in building 7? There must have been some serious heat from the WTC's, which we know were loaded with both conventional and non-conventional high-tech explosives (nano-thermate being what weakened the structures enough to allow for their complete demolition), which was obviously the culprit. I also find it rather amusing that you are accusing me of showing a lack of understanding of communist propaganda when your lack of understanding regarding the scientific evidence, facts, laws of physics, amazing coincidences and eyewitness accounts about the realities of 9/11 is far more heinous. Seriously... is your obsession with communism so deep that you can't see or think beyond the realm of it? I'm sorry, but at least Vladamir Putin isn't guilty and liable in the deaths of over 3,000 innocent people, thousands of our own soldiers and hundreds of thousands in Iraq/Afghanistan, as is our former VP Dick Cheney. I understand the seriousness of communism Mark and how evil Putin, the KGB, Medvedev, etc. all are and that they would love to take us down given the opportunity, but they were in no way, shape or form involved with the destruction of the World Trade Centers, the Pentagon or the shredding of our civil liberties and criminal profiteering by defense corporations and the enrichment of the military-industrial complex. Mark, war is big business... and also a racket... there is a reason those two phrases were coined. Have you ever studied the history of false flag operations?

Lets just call a spade a spade Col. Tarpley lied. He said their was no fire in building 7. That is not a question of being totally accurate. It is a bald faced lie. No raging inferno Bro? Lets review what the firefighters who were on the scene were saying:

"They told us to get out of there because they were worried about 7 World Trade Center, which is right behind it, coming down. We were up on the upper floors of the Verizon building looking at it. You could just see the whole bottom corner of the building was gone. We could look right out over to where the Trade Centers were because we were that high up. Looking over the smaller buildings. I just remember it was tremendous, tremendous fires going on. Finally they pulled us out. They said all right, get out of that building because that 7, they were really worried about. They pulled us out of there and then they regrouped everybody on Vesey Street, between the water and West Street. They put everybody back in there. Finally it did come down. From there - this is much later on in the day, because every day we were so worried about that building we didn't really want to get people close. They were trying to limit the amount of people that were in there. Finally it did come down." - Richard Banaciski

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny ... C_GRAPHIC/
Banaciski_Richard.txt

Here is more evidence they pulled the teams out waiting for a normal collapse from fire...

"The most important operational decision to be made that afternoon was the collapse (Of the WTC towers) had damaged 7 World Trade Center, which is about a 50 story building, at Vesey between West Broadway and Washington Street. It had very heavy fire on many floors and I ordered the evacuation of an area sufficient around to protect our members, so we had to give up some rescue operations that were going on at the time and back the people away far enough so that if 7 World Trade did collapse, we [wouldn't] lose any more people. We continued to operate on what we could from that distance and approximately an hour and a half after that order was [given], at 5:30 in the afternoon, World Trade Center collapsed completely" - Daniel Nigro, Chief of Department

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny ... C_GRAPHIC/
Nigro_Daniel.txt

"Early on, there was concern that 7 World Trade Center might have been both impacted by the collapsing tower and had several fires in it and there was a concern that it might collapse. So we instructed that a collapse area -- (Q. A collapse zone?) -- Yeah -- be set up and maintained so that when the expected collapse of 7 happened, we wouldn't have people working in it. There was considerable discussion with Con Ed regarding the substation in that building and the feeders and the oil coolants and so on. And their concern was of the type of fire we might have when it collapsed." - Chief Cruthers

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny ... TC_GRAPHIC
/Cruthers.txt

"Then we found out, I guess around 3:00 [o'clock], that they thought 7 was going to collapse. So, of course, [we've] got guys all in this pile over here and the main concern was get everybody out, and I guess it took us over an hour and a half, two hours to get everybody out of there. (Q. Initially when you were there, you had said you heard a few Maydays?) Oh, yes. We had Maydays like crazy.... The heat must have been tremendous. There was so much [expletive] fire there. This whole pile was burning like crazy. Just the heat and the smoke from all the other buildings on fire, you [couldn't] see anything. So it took us a while and we ended up backing everybody out, and [that's] when 7 collapsed.... Basically, we fell back for 7 to collapse, and then we waited a while and it got a lot more organized, I would guess." - Lieutenant William Ryan

http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/ny ... TC_GRAPHIC
/Ryan_William.txt

"Firehouse: Did that chief give an assignment to go to building 7?

Boyle: He gave out an assignment. I didn’t know exactly what it was, but he told the chief that we were heading down to the site.

Firehouse: How many companies?

Boyle: There were four engines and at least three trucks. So we’re heading east on Vesey, we couldn’t see much past Broadway. We couldn’t see Church Street. We couldn’t see what was down there. It was really smoky and dusty."

"A little north of Vesey I said, we’ll go down, let’s see what’s going on. A couple of the other officers and I were going to see what was going on. We were told to go to Greenwich and Vesey and see what’s going on. So we go there and on the north and east side of 7 it didn’t look like there was any damage at all, but then you looked on the south side of 7 there had to be a hole 20 stories tall in the building, with fire on several floors. Debris was falling down on the building and it didn’t look good.

But they had a hoseline operating. Like I said, it was hitting the sidewalk across the street, but eventually they pulled back too. Then we received an order from Fellini, we’re going to make a move on 7. That was the first time really my stomach tightened up because the building didn’t look good. I was figuring probably the standpipe systems were shot. There was no hydrant pressure. I wasn’t really keen on the idea. Then this other officer I’m standing next to said, that building doesn’t look straight. So I’m standing there. I’m looking at the building. It didn’t look right, but, well, we’ll go in, we’ll see.

So we gathered up rollups and most of us had masks at that time. We headed toward 7. And just around we were about a hundred yards away and Butch Brandies came running up. He said forget it, nobody’s going into 7, there’s creaking, there are noises coming out of there, so we just stopped. And probably about 10 minutes after that, Visconti, he was on West Street, and I guess he had another report of further damage either in some basements and things like that, so Visconti said nobody goes into 7, so that was the final thing and that was abandoned.

Firehouse: When you looked at the south side, how close were you to the base of that side?

Boyle: I was standing right next to the building, probably right next to it.

Firehouse: When you had fire on the 20 floors, was it in one window or many?

Boyle: There was a huge gaping hole and it was scattered throughout there. It was a huge hole. I would say it was probably about a third of it, right in the middle of it. And so after Visconti came down and said nobody goes in 7, we said all right, we’ll head back to the command post. We lost touch with him. I never saw him again that day.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/ ... boyle.html
(Broken Link Cached here: http://www.webcitation.org/5IuRwM61d )

This proves there was a big hole on the south side of the building. From the photographic evidence and these quotes which aren't meant to be technical, I suspect there was a large hole in the center of the building which may have gone up 10 stories connected to a large rip on the left side of the building which continued up another 10 or more stories. Together they would make "a hole 20 stories tall".

Hayden: Yeah. There was enough there and we were marking off. There were a lot of damaged apparatus there that were covered. We tried to get searches in those areas. By now, this is going on into the afternoon, and we were concerned about additional collapse, not only of the Marriott, because there was a good portion of the Marriott still standing, but also we were pretty sure that 7 World Trade Center would collapse. Early on, we saw a bulge in the southwest corner between floors 10 and 13, and we had put a transit on that and we were pretty sure she was going to collapse. You actually could see there was a visible bulge, it ran up about three floors. It came down about 5 o’clock in the afternoon, but by about 2 o’clock in the afternoon we realized this thing was going to collapse.

Firehouse: Was there heavy fire in there right away?

Hayden: No, not right away, and that’s probably why it stood for so long because it took a while for that fire to develop. It was a heavy body of fire in there and then we didn’t make any attempt to fight it. That was just one of those wars we were just going to lose. We were concerned about the collapse of a 47-story building there. We were worried about additional collapse there of what was remaining standing of the towers and the Marriott, so we started pulling the people back after a couple of hours of surface removal and searches along the surface of the debris. We started to pull guys back because we were concerned for their safety.

Firehouse: Chief Nigro said they made a collapse zone and wanted everybody away from number 7— did you have to get all of those people out?

Hayden: Yeah, we had to pull everybody back. It was very difficult. We had to be very forceful in getting the guys out. They didn’t want to come out. There were guys going into areas that I wasn’t even really comfortable with, because of the possibility of secondary collapses. We didn’t know how stable any of this area was. We pulled everybody back probably by 3 or 3:30 in the afternoon. We said, this building is going to come down, get back. It came down about 5 o’clock or so, but we had everybody backed away by then. At that point in time, it seemed like a somewhat smaller event, but under any normal circumstances, that’s a major event, a 47-story building collapsing. It seemed like a firecracker after the other ones came down, but I mean that’s a big building, and when it came down, it was quite an event. But having gone through the other two, it didn’t seem so bad. But that’s what we were concerned about. We had said to the guys, we lost as many as 300 guys. We didn’t want to lose any more people that day. And when those numbers start to set in among everybody… My feeling early on was we weren’t going to find any survivors. You either made it out or you didn’t make it out. It was a cataclysmic event. The idea of somebody living in that thing to me would have been only short of a miracle. This thing became geographically sectored because of the collapse. I was at West and Liberty. I couldn’t go further north on West Street. And I couldn’t go further east on Liberty because of the collapse of the south tower, so physically we were boxed in.

http://www.firehouse.com/terrorist/911/ ... ayden.html
(Broken Link - Ask Firehouse.com)

Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires. Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is. Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may? What are you afraid of?

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Yeah, I guess everybody wakes up when they wake up. Not much can be done to speed up the process.

True that.

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires. Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is. Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may? What are you afraid of?

And here's 2 minutes, Mark.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysi ... fires.html

Other Skyscraper Fires

Fires Have Never Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse


The One Meridian Plaza fire
Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things.

The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. 4 Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.



The First Interstate Bank Fire

The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss. 5

A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire:

In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans. 6





The 1 New York Plaza Fire

Close-up of the First Interstate Bank fire
Photo: New York Board of Underwriters
1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours. 7

Caracas Tower Fire

The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela experienced a severe fire on October 17, 2004. The blaze began before midnight on the 34th floor, spread to more than 26 floors, and burned for more than 17 hours. Heat from the fires prevented firefighters from reaching the upper floors, and smoke injured 40 firefighters.

Lax enforcement of fire codes in Venezuela was blamed for the malfunctioning of water pumps and a lack of fire extinguishers inside of the building. Because the building was empty when the fire broke out, no civilians were killed or injured. 8

The Windsor Building Fire


The Windsor Building fire
A more recent case of a severe high-rise fire is the one that destroyed the Windsor Building in Madrid, Spain on February 12, 2005. The Windsor fire was more severe than any of the fires described above, and the incident has been widely publicized, with comparisons to the fires in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers on 9/11/01. However, the Windsor Building, unlike all the buildings mentioned above, was framed in steel-reinforced concrete rather than steel. Hence it is described on a separate page, which notes differences between the response of these different types of structures to fires.






The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire

The most recent example of a spectacular skyscraper fire was the burning of the Hotel Mandarin Oriental starting on February 9, 2009. The nearly completed 520-foot-tall skyscraper in Beijing caught fire around 8:00 pm, was engulfed within 20 minutes, and burned for at least 3 hours until midnight. Despite the fact that the fire extended across all of the floors for a period of time and burned out of control for hours, no large portion of the structure collapsed.

It is tempting to draw parallels between this spectacle and the destruction of WTC 1, 2, and 7 because of the stark opposites: on 9/11/01, three skyscrapers were transformed into piles of rubble primarily as a consequence, supposedly, of fires -- fires spanning small fractions of each building; and on 2/09/09, a skyscraper remained intact after burning like a torch for hours. However such parallels may be limited by major structural differences between the buildings in the two cases -- one being that the Hotel Mandarin Oriental, designed by the famous Dutch architect Rem Koolhaas, had a full-height interior atrium, and thus had the hollowness that the 9-11 Commission deceptively attempted to attribute to the Twin Towers. 10

Perhaps the relevance of the Mandarin fire to the events of 9/11/2001 is more symbolic than forensic. The Mandarin fire is examined more fully here.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Lets just call a spade a spade Col. Tarpley lied. He said their was no fire in building 7. That is not a question of being totally accurate.

Maybe Tarpley wasn't aware that there were fires in building 7? Most people have never even seen or heard about building 7 coming down at 5:00 PM that night - it was shown once on TV and that was it. So Tarpley wasn't aware that there were fires in building, thus he was intentionally lying to Hannity & Colmes, which vindicates the feds' story. Got it.

It is a bald faced lie. No raging inferno Bro? Lets review what the firefighters who were on the scene were saying:

Mark, never before in the history of the world had fire ever brought down a building into its own footprint in controlled demolition style, but on 9/11, 3 did. And for any firefighter to say that they were concerned the building was going to collapse is perfectly understandable - just not implode in a classic controlled demolition like manner we witnessed. Maybe portions of the building might lean or fall off or in the case where one corner of the bottom was gone, you might expect the rest of it to fall in that direction and look something like this...



But here is what we got instead...



Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires.

Mark, we've presented mounds and piles and mountains of evidence to which you've called 'theories' and since I know you're not dumb, only someone who doesn't want to believe that 9/11 was an inside job would do that and thus, I ask you - who's being intellectually dishonest here?

Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is.

Was it damaged? Yes. Were there fires? Yes. Do steel-framed buildings spontaneously implode themselves at free fall speed because of a few office fires and some exterior damage? No. Problem!

Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may?

I've done that and many others have done it ad nausem, but yet, you continue to battle us on the subject.

What are you afraid of?

Me... or you?

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Nice Glenn.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Mark, some quick questions...

1. Would you expect molten metal to be present under all 3 WTC buildings because of 2 airplanes?
2. Do gravity-induced building collapses possess enough energy to turn said structure's metal and concrete into pulverized dust at free fall speed in almost perfect symmetry DURING collapse? Likewise, would a gravity-induced collapse be able to turn human bones into tiny, unrecognizable pieces? Hint: study the laws of conservation of momentum and kinetic/potential energy for your answer
3. Were nano-particles discovered in the WTC dust?
4. Who manufactures nano-technology?
5. How many warnings did the Bush administration ignore from other nations about the attack?
6. Who was in charge of security for all of the airports whence the planes took off as well as the WTC complex?
7. Who sat on the Board of Directors for that company?
8. Were there 5 Mossad agents seen filming the event and then dancing and celebrating afterwards?
9. Who profited from 9/11?
10. How much was it going to cost to remove the asbestos from WTC's 1 & 2? How much money was made from their destruction, who made the money and what kind of international ties did he have?

Google is your friend - go for it.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Lets just call a spade a spade Col. Tarpley lied. He said their was no fire in building 7. That is not a question of being totally accurate.

Maybe Tarpley wasn't aware that there were fires in building 7? Most people have never even seen or heard about building 7 coming down at 5:00 PM that night - it was shown once on TV and that was it. So Tarpley wasn't aware that there were fires in building, thus he was intentionally lying to Hannity & Colmes, which vindicates the feds' story. Got it.

It is a bald faced lie. No raging inferno Bro? Lets review what the firefighters who were on the scene were saying:

Mark, never before in the history of the world had fire ever brought down a building into its own footprint in controlled demolition style, but on 9/11, 3 did. And for any firefighter to say that they were concerned the building was going to collapse is perfectly understandable - just not implode in a classic controlled demolition like manner we witnessed. Maybe portions of the building might lean or fall off or in the case where one corner of the bottom was gone, you might expect the rest of it to fall in that direction and look something like this...






But here is what we got instead...



Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires.

Mark, we've presented mounds and piles and mountains of evidence to which you've called 'theories' and since I know you're not dumb, only someone who doesn't want to believe that 9/11 was an inside job would do that and thus, I ask you - who's being intellectually dishonest here?

Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is.

Was it damaged? Yes. Were there fires? Yes. Do steel-framed buildings spontaneously implode themselves at free fall speed because of a few office fires and some exterior damage? No. Problem!

Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may?

I've done that and many others have done it ad nausem, but yet, you continue to battle us on the subject.

What are you afraid of?

Me... or you?

The reason I continue to question your version of the way things went down on various 9-11 events is because many other very intelligent people who have vast amounts of expertise far greater than I or you in these areas also question your version of the "truth". Why is that Col? Does every scientist and engineer and demolition expert that disagrees with your conclusions all just work for the gadiantons?

Do you think that maybe just maybe there might just possibly be some other explanations for what happened to building 7 than the ones you continue to demand was the case? Are you that stubborn to think that only you and your buddies have all the answers to this event? Apparently you are because you ignore anything that does not line up with your version of what happened.

I bring up the words of firefighters who were there fighting these fires in building 7 and who thought this building was coming down and you just completely ignore what they said and repeat your conclusions again and again. You only want to hear what lines up with your version of these terrible events. That to me is not an honest evaluation of facts.

I'm sure that I will be called completely ignorant and a complete simpleton by all you experts so I will just go back to eating my hula pie and call it a day.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Mark, some quick questions...

1. Would you expect molten metal to be present under all 3 WTC buildings because of 2 airplanes?
2. Do gravity-induced building collapses possess enough energy to turn said structure's metal and concrete into pulverized dust at free fall speed in almost perfect symmetry DURING collapse? Likewise, would a gravity-induced collapse be able to turn human bones into tiny, unrecognizable pieces? Hint: study the laws of conservation of momentum and kinetic/potential energy for your answer
3. Were nano-particles discovered in the WTC dust?
4. Who manufactures nano-technology?
5. How many warnings did the Bush administration ignore from other nations about the attack?
6. Who was in charge of security for all of the airports whence the planes took off as well as the WTC complex?
7. Who sat on the Board of Directors for that company?
8. Were there 5 Mossad agents seen filming the event and then dancing and celebrating afterwards?
9. Who profited from 9/11?
10. How much was it going to cost to remove the asbestos from WTC's 1 & 2? How much money was made from their destruction, who made the money and what kind of international ties did he have?

Google is your friend - go for it.

Every one of your questions can be explained logically with differing conclusions by various experts in the field Col. I have sent you several answers to these questions over the years but you continue to just ignore anything anyone else says regardless of expertise if it does not line up with your version of things. We are fighting a losing battle here. You only want to entertain what you already "know" to be true. So be it.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires. Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is. Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may? What are you afraid of?

And here's 2 minutes, Mark.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysi ... fires.html

Other Skyscraper Fires

Fires Have Never Caused Skyscrapers to Collapse


The One Meridian Plaza fire
Excepting the three 9-11 collapses, no fire, however severe, has ever caused a steel-framed high-rise building to collapse. Following are examples of high-rise fires that were far more severe than those in WTC 1 and 2, and Building 7. In these precedents, the fires consumed multiple floors, produced extensive window breakage, exhibited large areas of emergent flames, and went on for several hours. The fires in the WTC towers did none of these things.

The fire caused window breakage, cracking of granite, and failures of spandrel panel connections. 4 Despite the severity and duration of the fire, as evidenced by the damage the building sustained, no part of the building collapsed.



The First Interstate Bank Fire

The First Interstate Bank Building is a 62-story skyscraper in Los Angeles that suffered the worst high-rise fire in the city's history. From the late evening of May 4, 1988 through the early morning of the next day, 64 fire companies battled the blaze, which lasted for 3 1/2 hours. The fire caused extensive window breakage, which complicated firefighting efforts. Large flames jutted out of the building during the blaze. Firefighting efforts resulted in massive water damage to floors below the fire, and the fire gutted offices from the 12th to the 16th floor, and caused extensive smoke damage to floors above. The fire caused an estimated $200 million in direct property loss. 5

A report by Iklim Ltd. describes the structural damage from the fire:

In spite of the total burnout of four and a half floors, there was no damage to the main structural members and only minor damage to one secondary beam and a small number of floor pans. 6





The 1 New York Plaza Fire

Close-up of the First Interstate Bank fire
Photo: New York Board of Underwriters
1 New York Plaza is a 50-story office tower less than a mile from the World Trade Center site. It suffered a severe fire and explosion on August 5, 1970. The fire started around 6 PM, and burned for more than 6 hours. 7

Caracas Tower Fire

The tallest skyscraper in Caracas, Venezuela experienced a severe fire on October 17, 2004. The blaze began before midnight on the 34th floor, spread to more than 26 floors, and burned for more than 17 hours. Heat from the fires prevented firefighters from reaching the upper floors, and smoke injured 40 firefighters.

Lax enforcement of fire codes in Venezuela was blamed for the malfunctioning of water pumps and a lack of fire extinguishers inside of the building. Because the building was empty when the fire broke out, no civilians were killed or injured. 8

The Windsor Building Fire


The Windsor Building fire
A more recent case of a severe high-rise fire is the one that destroyed the Windsor Building in Madrid, Spain on February 12, 2005. The Windsor fire was more severe than any of the fires described above, and the incident has been widely publicized, with comparisons to the fires in the three World Trade Center skyscrapers on 9/11/01. However, the Windsor Building, unlike all the buildings mentioned above, was framed in steel-reinforced concrete rather than steel. Hence it is described on a separate page, which notes differences between the response of these different types of structures to fires.






The Beijing Mandarin Oriental Hotel Fire

The most recent example of a spectacular skyscraper fire was the burning of the Hotel Mandarin Oriental starting on February 9, 2009. The nearly completed 520-foot-tall skyscraper in Beijing caught fire around 8:00 pm, was engulfed within 20 minutes, and burned for at least 3 hours until midnight. Despite the fact that the fire extended across all of the floors for a period of time and burned out of control for hours, no large portion of the structure collapsed.

It is tempting to draw parallels between this spectacle and the destruction of WTC 1, 2, and 7 because of the stark opposites: on 9/11/01, three skyscrapers were transformed into piles of rubble primarily as a consequence, supposedly, of fires -- fires spanning small fractions of each building; and on 2/09/09, a skyscraper remained intact after burning like a torch for hours. However such parallels may be limited by major structural differences between the buildings in the two cases -- one being that the Hotel Mandarin Oriental, designed by the famous Dutch architect Rem Koolhaas, had a full-height interior atrium, and thus had the hollowness that the 9-11 Commission deceptively attempted to attribute to the Twin Towers. 10

Perhaps the relevance of the Mandarin fire to the events of 9/11/2001 is more symbolic than forensic. The Mandarin fire is examined more fully here.

Point taken Info but name me one of these skyscrapers that you mention here that was built identical to the towers that came down on 9-11? Is there one?

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

Point taken Info but name me one of these skyscrapers that you mention here that was built identical to the towers that came down on 9-11? Is there one?

Especially the load that was bearing on the bottom floors by the pure height of the buildings.

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Now I just goggled this and found it in 5 minutes. I honestly don't understand the lack of intellectual honesty here when it comes to this basic knowledge of what really was happening with building 7 with these fires. Is it fair and honest to say that building 7 did not really have much of any fire damage? I don't think it is. Why not lay the facts on the table regardless of where they might lead and let the chips fall as they may? What are you afraid of?

Adding to the quotes you provided, also found in a 5-minute Google search...

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/oralhistories/index.html

Explosions
Reports of Sights and Sounds of Explosions in the Oral Histories

The oral histories released on August 12, 2005 contain many recollections of the sights and sounds of explosions. The excerpts on this page describe perceptions of the South Tower collapse, except where noted otherwise.

Rich Banaciski -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
We were there I don't know, maybe 10, 15 minutes and then I just remember there was just an explosion. It seemed like on television they blow up these buildings. It seemed like it was going all the way around like a belt, all these explosions.
Interview, 12/06/01, New York Times

Brian Becker -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 28]
So I think that the building was really kind of starting to melt. We were -- like, the melt down was beginning. The collapse hadn't begun, but it was not a fire any more up there. It was like -- it was like that -- like smoke explosion on a tremendous scale going on up there.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Greg Brady -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 6]
We were standing underneath and Captain Stone was speaking again. We heard -- I heard 3 loud explosions. I look up and the north tower is coming down now, 1 World Trade Center.
...
We were standing in a circle in the middle of West Street. They were talking about what was going on. At that time, when I heard the 3 loud explosions, I started running west on Vesey Street towards the water. At that time, I couldn't run fast enough. The debris caught up with me, knocked my helmet off.
Interview, , New York Times

Timothy Burke -- Firefigter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 202]
Then the building popped, lower than the fire, which I learned was I guess, the aviation fuel fell into the pit, and whatever floor it fell on heated up really bad and that's why it popped at that floor. That's the rumor I heard. But it seemed like I was going oh, my god, there is a secondary device because the way the building popped. I thought it was an explosion.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]
It actually gave at a lower floor, not the floor where the plane hit, because we originally had thought there was like an internal detonation explosives because it went in succession, boom, boom, boom, boom, and then the tower came down. With that everybody was just stunned for a second or two, looking at the tower coming down.
Interview, 12/06/05, New York Times

Frank Campagna -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 11]
There was nobody in the intersection, nobody in the streets in general, everyone just saying come on, keeping coming, keep coming. That's when [the North Tower] went. I looked back. You see three explosions and then the whole thing coming down. I turned my head and everybody was scattering. From there I don't know who was who. I don't even know where my guys went. None of us knew where each other were at at that point in time.
Interview, 12/04/01, New York Times

Craig Carlsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 8]
I guess about three minutes later you just heard explosions coming from building two, the south tower. It seemed like it took forever, but there were about ten explosions. At the time I didn't realize what it was. We realized later after talking and finding out that it was the floors collapsing to where the plane had hit.
...
You did hear the explosions [when the North Tower came down]. Of course after the first one -- the first one was pretty much looking at in like in awe. You didn't realize that this was really happening because you kind of just stood there and you didn't react as fast as you thought you were going to. The second one coming down, you knew the explosions. Now you're very familiar with it.
Interview, 01/25/02, New York Times

Jason Charles -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I grabbed her and the Lieutenant picked her up by the legs and we start walking over slowly to the curb, and then I heard an explosion from up, from up above, and I froze and I was like, oh, s___, I'm dead because I thought the debris was going to hit me in the head and that was it.
Then everybody stops and looks at the building and they they take off. The Lieutenant dropped her legs and ran. The triage center, everybody who was sitting there hurt and, oh, you know, help me, they got up and and everybody together got up and ran. I looked at them like why are they running? I look over my shoulder and I says, oh, s___, and then I turned around and looked up and that's when I saw the tower coming down.
...
North Tower:
We start walking back there and then I heard a ground level explosion and I'm like holy s___, and then you heard that twisting metal wreckage again. Then I said s___ and everybody started running and I started running behind them, and we get to the door.
Interview, 01/23/02, New York Times

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
And while I was still in that immediate area, the south tower, 2 World Trade Center, there was what appeared to be at first an explosion. It appeared at the very top, simultaneously from all four sides, materials shot out horizontally. And then there seemed to be a momentary delay before you could see the beginning of the collapse.
Interview, 10/31/01, New York Times

James Curran -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
A guy started scremaing to run. When I got underneath the north bridge I looked back and you heard it, I heard like every floor went chu-chu-chu. Looked back and from the pressure everything was getting blown out of the floors before it actually collapsed.
Interview, 12/30/01, New York Times

Kevin Darnowski -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I started walking back up towards Vesey Street. I heard three explosions, and then we heard like groaning and grinding, and tower two started to come down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

Dominick Derubbio -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Division 8]
After a while we were looking up at the tower, and all of a sudden someone said it's starting to come down.
...
This would be the first one.
...
This one here. It was weird how it started to come down. It looked like it was a timed explosion, but I guess it was just the floors starting to pancake one on top of the other.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Karin Deshore -- Captain (E.M.S.)
Somewhere around the middle of the World Trade Center, there was this orange and red flash coming out. Initially it was just one flash. Then this flash just kept popping all the way around the building and that building had started to explode. The popping sound, and with each popping sound it was initially an orange and then a red flash came out of the building and then it would just go all around the building on both sides as far as I could see. These popping sounds and the explosions were getting bigger, going both up and down and then all around the building.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Brian Dixon -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
I was watching the fire, watching the people jump and hearing a noise and looking up and seeing -- it actually looked -- the lowest floor of fire in the south tower actually looked like someone had planted explosives around it because the whole bottom I could see -- I could see two sides of it and the other side -- it just looked like that floor blew out. I looked up and you could actually see everything blew out on the one floor. I thought, geez, this looks like an explosion up there, it blew out. Then I guess in some sense of time we looked at it and realized, no, actually it just collapsed. That's what blew out the windows, not that there was an explosion there but that windows blew out. The realization hit that it's going to fall down, the top's coming off. I was still thinking -- there was never a thought that this whole thing is coming down. I thought that that blew out and stuff is starting to fly down. The top is going to topple off there.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Michael Donovan -- Captain (F.D.N.Y.)
Anyway, with that I was listening, and there was an incredibly loud rumbling. I never got to look up. People started running for the entrances to the parking garages. They started running for the entrances. I started running without ever looking up. The roar became tremendous. I fell on the way to the parking garages. Debris was starting to fall all around me. I got up, I got into the parking garages, was knocked down by the percussion. I thought there had been an explosion or a bomb that they had blown up there. The Vista International Hotel was my first impression, that they had blown it up. I never got to see the World Trade Center coming down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

James Drury -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We were in the process of getting some rigs moved when I turned, as I heard a tremendous roar, explosion, and saw that the first of the two towers was starting to come down.
...
When the dust started to settle, I headed back down towards the World Trade Center and I guess I came close to arriving at the corner of Vesey and West again where we started to hear the second roar. That was the north tower now coming down. I should say that people in the street and myself included thought that the roar was so loud that the explosive - bombs were going off inside the building. Obviously we were later proved wrong.
...
The sight of the jumpers was horrible and the turning around and seeing that first tower come down was unbelieveable. The sound it made. As I said I thought the terrorists planted explosives somewhere in the building. That's how loud it was, crackling explosive, a wall. That's about it. Any questions?
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Thomas Fitzpatrick -- Deputy Commissioner for Administration (F.D.N.Y.)
We looked up at the building straight up, we were that close. All we saw was a puff of smoke coming from about 2 thirds of the way up. Some people thought it was an explosion. I don't think I remember that. I remember seeing it, it looked like sparkling around one specific layer of the building. I assume now that that was either windows starting to collapse like tinsel or something. Then the building started to come down. My initial reaction was that this was exactly the way it looks when they show you those implosions on TV. I would have to say for three or four seconds anyway, maybe longer. I was just watching. It was interesting to watch, but the thing that woke everybody up was the cloud of black material. It reminded me of the 10 commandments when the green clouds come down on the street. The black cloud was coming down faster than the building, so whatever was coming down was going to hit the street and it was pretty far out. You knew it wasn't coming right down. Judging from where people were jumping before that, this cloud was much further.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Gary Gates -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
I looked up, and the building exploded, the building that we were very close to, which was one tower. The whole top came off like a volcano.
...
So now both towers have been hit by a plane. The north tower was burning. So the explosion, what I realized later, had to be the start of the collapse. It was the way the building appeared to blowout from both sides. I'm looking at the face of it, and all we see is the two sides of the building just blowing out and coming apart like this, as I said, like the top of a volcano.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Kevin Gorman -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
North Tower:
John Malley, who was right behind me, I turned around for him, because he was doing something, either putting his coat on or something, and as I was looking at him I heard the explosion, looked up, and saw like three floors explode, saw the antenna coming down, and turned around and ran north.
Interview, 01/09/02, New York Times

Stephen Gregory -- Assistant Commissioner (F.D.N.Y.)
We both for whatever reason -- again, I don't know how valid this is with everything that was going on at that particular point in time, but for some reason I thought that when I looked in the direction of the Trade Center before it came down, before No. 2 came down, that I saw low-level flashes. In my conversation with Lieutenant Evangelista, never mentioning this to him, he questioned me and asked me if I saw low-level flashes in front of the building, and I agreed with him because I thought -- at that time I didn't know what it was. I mean, it could have been as a result of the building collapsing, things exploding, but I saw a flash flash flash and then it looked like the building came down.
...
[It was at] the lower level of the building. You know like when they demolish a building, how when they blow up a building, when it falls down? That's what I thought I saw.
...
He said did you see anything by the building? And I said what do you mean by see anything? He said did you see flashes? I said, yes, well, I thought it was just me. He said no, I saw them too.
...
I know about the explosion on the upper floors. This was like at eye level. I didn't have to go like this. Because I was looking this way. I'm not going to say it was on the first floor or the second floor, but somewhere in that area I saw to me what appeared to be flashes.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

Gregg Hansson -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
That's basically where we were. Then a large explosion took place. In my estimation that was the tower coming down, but at that time I did not know what that was. I thought some type of bomb had gone off. I was, I believe, ahead of the rest of the firefighters and officers there. I made it to the corner, and I took about four running steps this way when you could feel the rush of the wind coming at you. I believed that that was a huge fireball coming at the time.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
We came out from 90 West, made a left, headed east, and right when we got to the corner of Washington and Albany, that's when I heard the building collapse.
First I thought it was an explosion. I thought maybe there was bomb on the plane, but delayed type of thing, you know secondary device.
...
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.
Interview, 12/26/01, New York Times

Art Lakiotes -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Safety Command]
Tower one now comes down. Same thing but this time some of us take off straight down West Street, because we realized later on, subconsciously we wanted to be near buildings. We all thought it was secondary explosives or more planes or whatever.
Interview, 12/03/01, New York Times

John Malley -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 22]
We were walking into darkness. As we walked through those revolving doors, that's when we felt the rumble. I felt the rumbling, and then I felt the force coming at me. I was like, what the hell is that? In my mind it was a bomb going off. The pressure got so great, I stepped back behind the columns separating the revolving doors. Then the force just blew past me. It blew past me it seemed for a long time. In my mind I was saying what the hell is this and when is it going to stop? Then it finally stopped, that pressure which I thought was a concussion of an explosion. It turns out it was the down pressure wind of the floors collapsing on top of each other. At that point everything went black, and then the collapse came. It just rained on top of us. Everything came. It rained debris forever.
Interview, 12/12/01, New York Times

Julio Marrero -- E.M.T. (F.D.N.Y.)
I was screaming from the top of my lungs, and I must have been about ten feet away from her and she couldn't even hear me, because the building was so loud, the explosion, that she couldn't even hear me. I just saw everybody running; and she saw us running, and she took off behind us.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Orlando Martinez -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
There was an explosion and after we started running, I was able to make it to Chambers and West, where I only saw one EMT, EMT Vega. She is new here. She was the only EMT I saw from the station and with all the cops and everybody else running, rescue workers. I grabbed her and I said just stay with me. We will try to get out of here.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Linda McCarthy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
So when that one went down. I thought the plane was exploding, or another plane hit. I had no idea it was coming down. But I couldn't see it gone, because I couldn't see it really in the first place with all the smoke.
Interview, 11/28/01, New York Times

James McKinley -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
After that I heard this huge explosion, I thought it was a boiler exploding or something. Next thing you know this huge cloud of smoke is coming at us, so we're running. Everyone is, firemen, PD, everyone is running away from the World Trade Center, up Vessey Street. This is North End, we was running around Vessey and around North end to get away from the first smoke.
Interview, 10/12/01, New York Times

Joseph Meola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 91]
As we are looking up at the building, what I saw was, it looked like the building was blowing out on all four sides. We actually heard the pops. Didn't realize it was the falling -- you know, you heard the pops of the building. You thought it was just blowing out.
Interview, 12/11/01, New York Times

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) []
I was standing kind of on the edge of where our elevator bank met the big elevator bank. That was when the - I determined that's when the north tower collapses. We are standing there and the first thing that happened, which I still think is strange to me, the lights went out. Completely pitch black. Since we are in that core little area of the building, there is no natural light. No nothing, I didn't see a thing.
I had heard right before the lights went out, I had heard a distant boom boom boom, sounded like three explosions. I don't know what it was. At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you.
Interview, 12/05/01, New York Times

Kevin Murray -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 18]
When the tower started -- there was a big explosion that I heard and someone screamed that it was coming down and I looked away and I saw all the windows domino -- you know, dominoeing up and then come down. We were right in front of 6, so we started running and how are you going to outrun the World Trade Center? So we threw our tools and I dove under a rig.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Janice Olszewski -- Captain (E.M.S.)
I thought more could be happening down there. I didn't know if it was an explosion. I didn't know it was a collapse at that point. I thought it was an explosion or a secondary device, a bomb, the jet -- plane exploding, whatever.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Juan Rios -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I was in the back waiting, you know, so we could wait for patients and I was hooking up the regulator to the O-2, when I hear people screaming and a loud explosion, and I heard like "sssssssss..." the dust like "sssssssss..." So I come out of the bus, and I look and I see a big cloud of dust and debris coming from the glass...
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Michael Ober -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
Then we heard a rumble, some twisting metal, we looked up in the air, and to be totally honest, at first, I don't know exactly -- but it looked to me just like an explosion. It didn't look like the building was coming down, it looked like just one floor had blown completely outside of it. I was sitting there looking at it. I just never thought they would ever come down, so I didn't think they were coming down. I just froze and stood there looking at it.
Interview, 10/16/01, New York Times

Angel Rivera -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Mike Mullan walked one flight up, and then the most horrendous thing happened. That's when hell came down. It was like a huge, enormous explosion. I still can hear it. Everything shook. Everything went black. The wind rushed, very slowly [sound], all the dust, all the -- and everything went dark.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Daniel Rivera -- Paramedic (E.M.S.) [Battalion 31]
Then that's when -- I kept on walking close to the south tower, and that's when that building collapsed.
...
It was a frigging noise. At first I thought it was -- do you ever see professional demolition where they set the charges on certain floors and then you hear "Pop, pop, pop, pop, pop"? That's exactly what -- because I thought it was that. When I heard that frigging noise, that's when I saw the building coming down.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Kennith Rogers -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Meanwhile we were standing there with about five companies and we were just waiting for our assignment and then there was an explosion in the south tower, which, according to this map, this exposure just blew out the flames. A lot of guys left at that point. I kept watching. Floor after floor after floor. One floor under another after another and when it hit about the fifth floor, I figured it was a bomb, because it looked like a synchronized deliberate kind of thing. I was there in '93.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

Patrick Scaringello -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
I started to treat patients on my own when I heard the explosion from up above. I looked up, I saw smoke and flame and then I saw the top tower tilt, start to twist and lean.
...
I was assisting in pulling more people out from debris, when I heard the second tower explode. When I tried to evacuate the area, by running up Fulton, got halfway up.
Interview, 10/10/01, New York Times

Mark Steffens -- Division Chief (E.M.S.)
Then there was another it sounded like an explosion and heavy white powder, papers, flying everywhere. We sat put there for a few minutes. It kind of dissipated.
...
That's when we heard this massive explosion and I saw this thing rolling towards us. It looked like a fireball and then thick, thick black smoke.
Interview, 10/03/01, New York Times

John Sudnik -- Battalion Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The best I can remember, we were just operating there, trying to help out and do the best we could. Then we heard a loud explosion or what sounded like a loud explosion and looked up and I saw tower two start coming down. Crazy.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Neil Sweeting -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
You heard a big boom, it was quiet for about ten seconds. Then you could hear another one. Now I realize it was the floors starting to stack on top of each other as they were falling. It was spaced apart in the beginning, but then it got to just a tremendous roar and a rumble that I will never forget.
Interview, 11/01/01, New York Times

Jay Swithers -- Captain (E.M.S.)
At that point I looked back and most of the people who were triaged in that area with the triage tags on them got up and ran. I took a quick glance at the building and while I didn't see it falling, I saw a large section of it blasting out, which led me to believe it was just an explosion. I thought it was a secondary device, but I knew that we had to go.
...
Within a few moments, I regrouped with Bruce Medjuck and I asked him to tell them on the radio to send us MTA buses to get people out. That didn't happen. But one thing that did happen was an ambulance pulled up which was very clean. So I assumed that the vehicle had not been in the - what I thought was an explosion at the time, but was the first collapse.
Interview, 10/30/01, New York Times

David Timothy -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
The next thing I knew, you started hearing more explosions. I guess this is when the second tower started coming down.
Interview, 10/25/01, New York Times

Albert Turi -- Deputy Assistant Chief (F.D.N.Y.)
The next thing I heard was Pete say what the f___ is this? And as my eyes traveled up the building, and I was looking at the south tower, somewhere about halfway up, my initial reaction was there was a secondary explosion, and the entire floor area, a ring right around the building blew out. I later realized that the building had started to collapse already and this was the air being compressed and that is the floor that let go.
Interview, 10/23/01, New York Times

Thomas Turilli -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
The door closed, they went up, and it just seemed a couple of seconds and all of a sudden you just heard it, it almost actually that day sounded like bombs going off, like boom, boom, boom, like seven or eight, and then just a huge wind gust just came and my officer just actually took all of us and just threw us down on the ground and kind of just jumped on top of us, laid on top of us.
...
At that point were were kind of standing on the street and I looked to my left and actually I noticed the tower was down. I didn't even know that it was when we were in there. It just seemed like a huge explosion.
Interview, 01/17/02, New York Times

Stephen Viola -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Our guy went in with 13 truck, and he was coming down with the guy from 13 truck to bring the elevator to us, and when he was either going up or coming down the elevator, that's when the south tower collapsed, and it sounded like a bunch of explosions. You heard like loud booms, but I guess it was all just stuff coming down, and then we got covered with rubble and dust, and I thought we'd actually fallen through the floor into like the PATH tubes, because it was so dark you couldn't see anything, and from there it was a little hazy from there on.
Interview, 01/10/02, New York Times

William Wall -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]
At that time, we heard an explosion. We looked up and the building was coming down right on top of us, so we ran up West Street. We ran a little bit and then we were overtaken by the cloud and we hid behind a white Suburban.
...
Oh, when we came out of the building and we were walking across West Street when we first got out of the building, we're walking across the street and all you heard was like bombs going off above your head. You couldn't see it. It was just cloudy. And we found out later it was the military jets. That was an eerie sound. You couldn't see it and all you heard was like a "boom" and it just kept going. We couldn't see 50 feet above our head because of the dust. So we didn't know if it was bombs going off or whatever, but we didn't want to stay there.
Interview, 12/10/01, New York Times

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Dust Clouds
Descriptions of Dust Clouds in the Oral Histories

The oral histories released on August 12, 2005 contain many recollections of thick clouds of dust issuing from the collapses.

Glenn Asaeda -- Civilian (E.M.S.) [M.D., Deputy Medical Director]
and the next thing I noticed, that jet engine sound and then a loud crash and then pitch black.
...
After I realized that we actually made it through this initial whatever it was, it was so dark that I actually thought they had closed the loading bay doors as a security measure for us, but it turns out it was just the debris and the smoke and whatnot that made it pitch black.
...
But really, it was so dark, you couldn't see the hand in front of your face.
...
So we turned around and ran north, at which point the plume of the smoke, again, kind of a warm feeling came by us, luckily no debris, almost kind of lifting us and then kind of surrounding us again.
Interview, 10/11/01, New York Times

Christopher Attanasio -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
So we proceeded to the ambulance, put on our turnout gear, helmet and turnout coat, and as we were taking the equipment out of the ambulance, the second tower -- the second tower, started to come down. As the tower was coming down, we ran. I ran, I guess it was west to the West Side Highway. The tower came down. I grabbed my partner, we ran. When the tower finally came down, there was a white cloud of smoke that hit us, knocked us to our feet. It was very hard to breathe. We inhaled a lot of white powder, whatever it was, dust, concrete, whatever it was.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

Anthony Bartolomey -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 4]
So I'm not sure if I was still in the church when the second tower came down because we were in there for quite a while before you could see outside enough to step out because the soot and the dust, the black in the sky to the point where it looked like it was nighttime outside.
Interview, 10/09/05, New York Times

James Bastile -- Division Commander (E.M.S.) [Division 2]
We were operating in the lobby, and all of a sudden we heard the roar of a jet engine, is what it sounded like. We thought that there was another plane coming into the building. We went from the lobby area into an elevator bank area -- escalators that led into the concourse area. So essentially a wall that we went around from the command post area to the escalator area. Not two seconds later debris and dust started to come in, and essentially we were just shut down. Everything was dark, pitch-black.
...
It went down, got filled with this dust and dirt, debris, again, this cloud. I opened up my eyes. It was total darkness I guess for about two, three minutes. I thought I guess this is what it's like to be dead.
Interview, 10/17/01, New York Times

Richard Battista -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 76]
When I saw that, Lieutenant Farrington told us to move back so we were sort of underneath a garage area when we first heard reports or guys yelling that one of the towers was coming down. I was able to stick my head out and look up a bit and once I saw that I just immediately turned around and ran into the building. Within seconds everything was pitch dark.
Interview, 12/06/01, New York Times

Thomas J. Bendick -- Civilian (E.M.S.) [Division 1]
Then in a couple of seconds, the roar stopped and I guess like in a split second it was just pure black.
Interview, 10/11/01, New York Times

Eric Berntsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
Then I looked up and I saw a dark cloud and I grabbed my helmet. The force knocked me down, blew me. I don't know how far I went, but I went forward pretty far. It knocked the wind out of me. I got covered with debris and just kept my hands on my helmet. Something pretty big hit me and knocked my helmet off. I felt a blast and just a lot of pressure when it hit me. So I had no helmet. I put my hands back on top of my head and I felt debris hit me. I felt weight piling up on my back, and I figured I was going to be under what I thought was about 10 feet of rubble.
Interview, 12/04/01, New York Times

David Blacksberg -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I looked -- I ran, and a whole lot of people, we were all running together. I looked back, and it was like it was this cloud of smoke, but it was like an avalanche, because you could see the smoke and everything tumbling right at you. You couldn't see up, you couldn't see back, and no matter how fast you ran, you couldn't out run it, and it overtook us, and finally I found my partner.
Interview, 10/23/01, New York Times

Robert Browne -- Deputy Chief (E.M.S.)
At that point, it was like -- it got totally pitch black. I couldn't see anything. I couldn't breathe. There was a wave that was -- I don't know if you're a beach person, but if you're a beach person and you ever been in the ocean, and you have a large wave come over you, and you can just feel it keep coming and coming. It's like the debris just kept coming and piling up and piling up, and when it finally did stop, I wasn't sure if I was alive or if I was dead. It was pitch black.
...
I can remember reaching for my radio and calling out a Mayday for the corner of Liberty and West, and nobody answered. There was no answer. It was just dead quiet, and I just assumed at that point that everybody was gone, and I wasn't -- I couldn't -- you know, I didn't call out any more. Then as the thick black, black smoke and blackness around me started to clear a little bit, and it started to get a little bit grayer, kind of like got to a dark gray, and then it got like a lighter gray, I could hear -- as it started to get lighter, I could hear people from the distance yelling for help.
Interview, 10/24/01, New York Times

Timothy Burke -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
All of a sudden the noises stopped, the sound of the building falling stopped. We all turned around and it was dark now. We really couldn't see. We got back to there -- we went back to the garage as far in it as we were, we were all full of the cloud. The cloud was in [the garage]. All eating the cloud, whatever it was like, very thick. I kept saying it was like a 3 dimensional object. It wasn't smoke. It was like everything. It was like a sand storm. .. but it was very silent after the building fell. Then all the Maydays started happening, the guys were screaming.
Interview, 01/22/02, New York Times

Ed Cachia -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 53]
We were just kind of blown into the garage with all the dust and the debris material from the building. It came up rapidly right up the street. As I remember turning, if you were out in the street somewhat, a good amount out in the street, you were kind of blown down the street, where we were kind of forced into the garage.
...
We were encapsulated in this garage for quite some time, maybe 15 minutes or so. You couldn't see. You couldn't breathe. You couldn't even hear because all the residue and material was in your ears and your nose and your mouth. Then as a few minutes went by, you heard some voices. It was dead silence at first. Just different emotions: How are we going to get out of here? I can't see. I can't breathe. My chest. It was still completely black. You couldn't see an inch in front of your face.
Interview, 12/06/01, New York Times

Peter Cachia -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.) [Battalion 4]
I went under the truck while the tower came down and the ground was shaking and the truck was shaking and I thought that was it for me. I thought I was done. I stayed under there until I guess everything was over. I remember opening my eyes and looking out and it was just pitch black.
Interview, 10/15/01, New York Times

Frank Cruthers -- Chief (F.D.N.Y.) [Citywide Tour Commander]
Following the North Tower collapse:
So I took a look around in that lobby, grade level lobby to see if there was access to continue more directly to get through the building and out the north side to get to the command post. While I was doing that, I heard more rumbling. I took refuge on the west side of the escalator corner. Once again there was a tremendous cloud. It was pitch black. I waited again until the cloud began to lift.
Interview, 10/31/01, New York Times

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
I made it right to the corner, and there's a column right there, and I was with my guys. We all made it to like the column, and I remember it was plate glass behind me, and I'm thinking I'm going to get hit by this glass and like a porcupine. I'm going to get it, you know, but nonetheless, it rumbled.
It was the loudest rumbling I ever heard. The ground shook, and I got thrown down, and I remember it just got black, and I got knocked down. I remember getting buried. I think I ducked more or less, you know, pieces of metal -- something hit me, not that heavy, though. Wasn't an I beam or else I wouldn't be talking to you, and I remember that being on me, and I kind of -- I was able to stand up and push everything off me, but now I felt like I was in the street or the sidewalk, and it was hot, smoky. I felt like I was in a fire, and I remember digging my way out. A lot of cementation, powdery insulation, whatever you want to call it. Almost like being in a blizzard with some metal debris right on me. Fortunately nothing heavy hit me.
Interview, 12/26/01, New York Times

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Ground Shaking
Reports of Ground Shaking in the Oral Histories

The oral histories released on August 12, 2005 contain many recollections of ground shaking occurring during the collapses.

Brian Becker -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 28]
We felt -- our whole building that we were in, when World Trade Center 2 collapsed, that was the first one to collapse. We were in World Trade Center 1. It was a tremendous explosion and tremendous shaking of our building. We thought it was our building maybe collapsed, there was a collapse above us occurring. It was tremendous shaking and like everybody dove into this stairwell and waited for, I guess, 20, 30 seconds until it settled, and that was our experience of the other building collapsing.
Interview, 10/09/01, New York Times

Michael Beehler -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 110]
I was by I guess the outer part of the building and I just remember feeling the building starting to shake and this tremendous tremendous like roar and I just -- I kind of didn't even notice it, but like out of the corner of my eye, I saw out of the building, I saw a shadow coming down. At that point I thought it was the upper part of the north tower that had just basically like toppled over, fell off. I didn't actually see the building part go by me, because I think I was on the opposite side. But I just remember feeling this tremendous tremendous shake and hearing this, like, noise. Again I can't describe. What I did was I ended up running out.
Interview, 12/17/01, New York Times

Jody Bell -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I lost track of time. You start to hear this rumble. You hear this rumble. Everything is shaking. Now I'm like, what the hell could that be. I'm thinking we're going to get bombed. This is an air raid. You hear this thunder, this rumbling. Then you see the building start to come down. Everybody's like, "Run for your lives! The building is coming down!" At that moment when that building was coming down, I was strapping a patient onto a stair chair.
Interview, 12/15/01, New York Times

Eric Berntsen -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
That's when we heard the building start shaking. I looked up into the Marriott, because you could see up into it from where we were standing, and just saw black, like dust. I saw stuff falling off the ceiling and I saw just black dust coming down. I turned and I ran a couple of steps west, a couple of steps east, and then we turned up north, up into the concourse, because I didn't see anything falling in that area at that time. So I felt that was the safest direction to go. I jumped into a corner. The lights went out. I jumped into a corner under an archway. I thought maybe that might provide some better support. I just held my helmet. I figured we were going to get like a pancake collapse on top of us. After the building stopped shaking and there was no rumbling noise any more, Vinny Picciano of 212 regrouped the company by saying 212, regroup, get back.
Interview, 12/04/01, New York Times

David Blacksberg -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
I lost track of time of when the second building was coming down. It sounded like one big rumble, and then it just sounded like it just continued, and I was -- I wasn't really paying attention. I was looking at the sound.
Interview, 11/23/01, New York Times

Robert Bohack -- Lieutenant (F.D.N.Y.)
from inside the North Tower:
We began, with the Port Authority cops, to come down the stairs. As soon as we got into the stairway, the building started shaking like an earthquake. I thought the building was coming down.
Interview, 01/09/02, New York Times

Nicholas Borrillo -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.)
on 23rd floor of North Tower:
Then we heard a rumble. We heard it and we felt the whole building shake. It was like being on a train, being in an earthquake. A train is more like it, because with the train you hear the rumbling, and it kind of like moved you around in the hall. Then it just stopped after eight or ten seconds, about the time it took for the building to come down.
Interview, 01/09/02, New York Times

Peter Cachia -- (E.M.S.) [Battalion 4]
I was like a little too close to the tower when it started coming down, because when I started running, I knew I was too close and I really didn't think I was going to get out of there. So about halfway up Liberty Street I saw a truck, I guess an SUV. It wasn't a police or a fire vehicle. It was just a car that was parked there. I went under the truck while the tower came down and the ground was shaking and the truck was shaking and I thought that was it for me. I thought I was done. I stayed under there until I guess everything was over.
Interview, 10/15/01, New York Times

Louis Cook -- Paramedic (E.M.S.)
I made it up onto the -- I guess you call it the concourse level, the mezzanine level, and onto the foot bridge when I started to hear -- I thought I heard an explosion of some sort, but I kind of dismissed it. I figured, ah, it's just something burning upstairs. I really didn't think of what was going on. Okay. I start going across this pedestrian bridge. I'm the only one on this bridge. I'm walking across it, and then I just remember feeling a rumble and hearing this rumbling sound that was really intense. It actually shook my bones.
Interview, 10/17/01, New York Times

Paul Curran -- Fire Patrolman (F.D.N.Y.)
North Tower:
I went back and stood right in front of Eight World Trade Center right by the customs house, and the north tower was set right next to it. Not that much time went by, and all of a sudden the ground just started shaking. It felt like a train was running under my feet.
...
The next thing we know, we look up and the tower is collapsing.
Interview, 12/18/01, New York Times

Joseph Fortis -- E.M.T. (E.M.S.)
T]he ground started shaking like a train was coming. You looked up, and I guess -- I don't know, it was one that came down first or two? Which one?
...
We were standing on West Street, and the ground started to shake. You looked up, and it looked like a ticker tape parade off the back of the building, because all this stuff started coming down.
Interview, 11/09/01, New York Times

Timothy Julian -- Firefighter (F.D.N.Y.) [Ladder 118]
You know, and I just heard like an explosion and then cracking type of noise, and then it sounded like a freight train, rumbling and picking up speed, and I remember I looked up, and I saw it coming down.
I made it right to the corner, and there's a column right there, and I was with my guys. We all made it to like the column, and I remember it was plate glass behind me, and I'm thinking I'm going to get hit by this glass and like a porcupine. I'm going to get it, you know, but nonetheless, it rumbled.
It was the loudest rumbling I ever heard. The ground shook, and I got thrown down, and I remember it just got black, and I got knocked down. I remember geing buried.
Interview, 12/26/01, New York Times

Bradley Mann -- Lieutenant (E.M.S.)
Shortly before the first tower came down, I remember feeling the ground shaking. I heard a terrible noise, and then debris just started flying everywhere. People started running.
Interview, 11/07/01, New York Times

Keith Murphy -- (F.D.N.Y.) [Engine 47]
At the time, I would have said they sounded like bombs, but it was boom boom boom and then the lights all go out. I hear someone say oh, s___, that was just for the lights out. I would say about 3, 4 seconds, all of a sudden this tremendous roar. It sounded like being in a tunnel with the train coming at you. It sounded like nothing I had ever heard in my life, but it didn't sound good. All of a sudden I could feel the floor started to shake and sway. We were being thrown like literally off our feet, side to side, getting banged around and then a tremendous wind starting to happen. It probably lasted maybe 15 seconds, 10 to 15 seconds. It seemed like a hurricane force wind. It would blow you off your feet and smoke and debris and more things started falling.
Interview, 12/05/01, New York Times

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Mark, some quick questions...

1. Would you expect molten metal to be present under all 3 WTC buildings because of 2 airplanes?
2. Do gravity-induced building collapses possess enough energy to turn said structure's metal and concrete into pulverized dust at free fall speed in almost perfect symmetry DURING collapse? Likewise, would a gravity-induced collapse be able to turn human bones into tiny, unrecognizable pieces? Hint: study the laws of conservation of momentum and kinetic/potential energy for your answer
3. Were nano-particles discovered in the WTC dust?
4. Who manufactures nano-technology?
5. How many warnings did the Bush administration ignore from other nations about the attack?
6. Who was in charge of security for all of the airports whence the planes took off as well as the WTC complex?
7. Who sat on the Board of Directors for that company?
8. Were there 5 Mossad agents seen filming the event and then dancing and celebrating afterwards?
9. Who profited from 9/11?
10. How much was it going to cost to remove the asbestos from WTC's 1 & 2? How much money was made from their destruction, who made the money and what kind of international ties did he have?

Google is your friend - go for it.

Every one of your questions can be explained logically with differing conclusions by various experts in the field Col. I have sent you several answers to these questions over the years but you continue to just ignore anything anyone else says regardless of expertise if it does not line up with your version of things. We are fighting a losing battle here. You only want to entertain what you already "know" to be true. So be it.

*sigh* - I give up - anyone else want to try and convince Mark of the truth?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Indisputable facts? Man you are amazing. Show me your indisputable facts that absolutely prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 9-11 was an inside job conducted by our own govt. officials. I want to see those indisputable facts you have. I have seen a lot of suppositions and theories and opinions here but have yet to see these indisputable facts you are claiming you have that proves 9-11 was a false flag operation conducted by our own govt.

Those facts are conveniently provided for you at the top of this thread. And you have not addressed a single one of them, love.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Mark, some quick questions...

Great questions, brother! Thanks!

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Indisputable facts? Man you are amazing. Show me your indisputable facts that absolutely prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that 9-11 was an inside job conducted by our own govt. officials. I want to see those indisputable facts you have. I have seen a lot of suppositions and theories and opinions here but have yet to see these indisputable facts you are claiming you have that proves 9-11 was a false flag operation conducted by our own govt.

Those facts are conveniently provided for you at the top of this thread. And you have not addressed a single one of them, love.

You totally misunderstand my purpose in questioning these statements you provide Love. I have no dog in this hunt when it comes to whether or not 9-11 was instigated by our own govt officials. I am not stupid or naive contrary to the consensus here. I know what any power hungry politician who seeks for power and control can do. I read the D&C and know all about unrighteous dominion and the like.

My purpose here is merely to look at things with an open mind and determine if any other explanations can be found for events like those that happened on 9-11. You guys always want to make this a battle to the death between the believers of an inside job thesis and those who do not yet buy into that thesis. That atmosphere is not condusive to learning.

I have tried to look at all the evidences and try to see if alternative explanations can be found for what happened to those buildings on 9-11. I believe that the only fair way is to weigh out the evidence and determine if a false flag inside job explanation is the only one that could possibly fit. Therefore I think it is only fair to read from those who have other explanations for what occurred and rationally weigh out what they say rather than just try to demonize any who don't buy into the inside job thesis which is exactly what I see many do here again and again to any who dare question their thesis.

You and others here are the ones who have made the accusation that 9-11 was definitely an inside job operation. Therefore you should be willing to look at any other explanations and debunk them with logic and science so as to help others determine your thesis as the only logical one that can be found. For example You talk about molten metal found pooled in the basements yet I have read several reports that give what appear to be rational and logical explanations for this occurrence besides your thermite thesis. Here is but one of many that has been published. I could post several others I have read.

http://www.debunking911.com/moltensteel.htm


Now isn't it important that we look at these alternative explanations and see if any make sense before making accusations that may or may not be true? That is all I am doing when I bring up alternatives to consider.

If you accuse your Brother falsely without sufficient evidence to back up those accusations I think it will be answered on your head in the judgment. I do not want to make accusations of murder on any individuals before I know that empirical evidence has been well established. Does that make any sense to you?

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Mark, some quick questions...

1. Would you expect molten metal to be present under all 3 WTC buildings because of 2 airplanes?
2. Do gravity-induced building collapses possess enough energy to turn said structure's metal and concrete into pulverized dust at free fall speed in almost perfect symmetry DURING collapse? Likewise, would a gravity-induced collapse be able to turn human bones into tiny, unrecognizable pieces? Hint: study the laws of conservation of momentum and kinetic/potential energy for your answer
3. Were nano-particles discovered in the WTC dust?
4. Who manufactures nano-technology?
5. How many warnings did the Bush administration ignore from other nations about the attack?
6. Who was in charge of security for all of the airports whence the planes took off as well as the WTC complex?
7. Who sat on the Board of Directors for that company?
8. Were there 5 Mossad agents seen filming the event and then dancing and celebrating afterwards?
9. Who profited from 9/11?
10. How much was it going to cost to remove the asbestos from WTC's 1 & 2? How much money was made from their destruction, who made the money and what kind of international ties did he have?

Google is your friend - go for it.

Every one of your questions can be explained logically with differing conclusions by various experts in the field Col. I have sent you several answers to these questions over the years but you continue to just ignore anything anyone else says regardless of expertise if it does not line up with your version of things. We are fighting a losing battle here. You only want to entertain what you already "know" to be true. So be it.

*sigh* - I give up - anyone else want to try and convince Mark of the truth?

He doesn't need convincing. He needs to have confidence is his ability to discern fact from fiction. He doesn't have the science chops to know any of this for himself, so he has to rely on the opinions of strangers and, as such, he's blown about by every wind of doctrine. He's not going to get a PhD via Google searches, so he's stuck until he finally decides what he believes. This is why I've asked him in other threads why he hasn't asked Heavenly Father about this. To my way of thinking, it's the only option, given he's sincere about his willingness to know the truth.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Inside job? Check these out.

The Twin Towers: What Really Destroyed Them
http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/e ... /flyer.pdf

WTC Videos
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... index.html

Firehouse Discussion
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence ... ehouse.mpg

Destroyed Flight Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evid ... royed.html

Destroyed WTC Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/destroyed.html

Ground Zero Cleanup/WTC Steel Removal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

Molten Metal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... steel.html

Aluminothermic Residues
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/residues.html

Another site: http://911blimp.net/prf_FreeFallPhysics.shtml

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Inside job? Check these out.

WTC Videos
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... index.html

Firehouse Discussion
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence ... ehouse.mpg

Destroyed Flight Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evid ... royed.html

Destroyed WTC Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/destroyed.html

Ground Zero Cleanup/WTC Steel Removal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

Molten Metal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... steel.html

Aluminothermic Residues
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/residues.html

Freedomfighter, those are all theories - do you have any evidence to back up your theories of evidence? I'm certain there has got to be an alternative scientific explanation for Muslims suspending the laws of physics and for the presence of nano-thermate.

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

This is usually where Mark disappears now for about a month and then comes back for more.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Inside job? Check these out.

WTC Videos
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... index.html

Firehouse Discussion
http://www.911research.com/wtc/evidence ... ehouse.mpg

Destroyed Flight Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/evid ... royed.html

Destroyed WTC Evidence
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/destroyed.html

Ground Zero Cleanup/WTC Steel Removal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/groundzero/cleanup.html

Molten Metal
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... steel.html

Aluminothermic Residues
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/residues.html

Freedomfighter, those are all theories - do you have any evidence to back up your theories of evidence? I'm certain there has got to be an alternative scientific explanation for Muslims suspending the laws of physics and for the presence of nano-thermate.

I really don't care one way or another. I do lean toward other than the collapse being caused by planes ALONE.
Fact:The towers were destroyed.
Fact: The cleanup afterward was at record speed. People with cameras were threatened with arrest if pictures were taken.
Fact: When evidence is destroyed or relocated out of public view, one is only left with theory.
Fact: There are too many stories and theories related to this event which leaves me to suspect there are things hidden from the publics view and correct understanding.
Fact: Since there had already been buildings blown up by terrorists, why would this be any different
Fact: I presented this info thinking it would help those in favor of conspiracy. Apparently, I was wrong. And that's okay, it isn't worth argueing about.
Fact: The scene described by the fireman is not theory.
Fact: If you are so concerned as to how the towers fell, why didn't you rush to Groundzero and check it out for yourself following the collapse?
Fact: Asking for evidence on how the buildings came down, at this point, is like asking me or anyone else to provide evidence that heaven truly exists. Sometimes we have to accept the best possible eyewitness as to the event at hand.

Theory = what might have happened
None theory = what some say did happen according to Physics involved
http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/e ... /flyer.pdf

[InfoWarrior82captain of 1,000]

I really don't care one way or another. I do lean toward other than the collapse being caused by planes ALONE.
Fact:The towers were destroyed.
Fact: The cleanup afterward was at record speed. People with cameras were threatened with arrest if pictures were taken.

Fact: When evidence is destroyed or relocated out of public view, one is only left with theory.

Fact: There are too many stories and theories related to this event which leaves me to suspect there are things hidden from the publics view and correct understanding.

Fact: Since there had already been buildings blown up by terrorists, why would this be any different

This isn't a fact.

Fact: I presented this info thinking it would help those in favor of conspiracy. Apparently, I was wrong. And that's okay, it isn't worth argueing about.
Fact: The scene described by the fireman is not theory.

Fact: If you are so concerned as to how the towers fell, why didn't you rush to Groundzero and check it out for yourself following the collapse?

Personally, I was gung-ho Iraq war at the time. How dare them Al Qaeda!

Fact: Asking for evidence on how the buildings came down, at this point, is like asking me or anyone else to provide evidence that heaven truly exists. Sometimes we have to accept the best possible eyewitness as to the event at hand.

There's plenty of facts on how the buildings fell.

1. FACT- Evidence of Molten Iron (already presented here)
2. FACT- All towers fell at free-fall speed. (already presented here)
3. FACTs- pages 1-6 of this thread.

Theory= Case presented with the facts at hand. So far, the facts don't add up in favor of 19 hijackers/men in caves conspiracy.


Theory = what might have happened
None theory = what some say did happen according to Physics involved
http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/e ... /flyer.pdf

I'm confused, freedomfighter... just by looking at the links you provided, makes me think you know much about the facts of 9/11. Just playing devil's advocate?

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Fact: Since there had already been buildings blown up by terrorists, why would this be any different

Which buildings?

[Col. Flaggcaptain of 10,000]

Mark, if you're still lurking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

*sigh* - I give up - anyone else want to try and convince Mark of the truth?

Mark trusts "experts" more than plain facts that are right in front of him. He does not care for the truth, but only for his false belief system. Leave him alone. He has no desire for truth, he will feel VERY stupid, when the truth will become inescapable and declared to him with a voice of thunder, Reality and truth are an unconquerable opponent!

[Robthe Sunbeam]

Mark, if you're still lurking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM

So much for giving up.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

Mark, if you're still lurking...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO2yT0uBQbM

I'm baaaaack. I watched the video here Col. and Mr Gage even admits that his group does not have the whole THEORY as to how it happened, who did it, and why. That is why they are calling for a new investigation of the evidence that has been uncovered. So Mr Gage himself is admitting that they do not have all the answers on who to place responsibility for in the downing of the buildings.

That is what I have contended all along yet I continue to get condescending remarks and slurs from the likes of Rob and Love and even you my good buddy about my intelligence because I don't come out and agree this was a false flag conducted inside job operation. Yet not one comment from anyone about anything I posted explaining alternative theories to reports of the molten metal which was one of the items discussed.

I am convinced that it is you guys who are not interested in finding the truth about what really happened on 9-11. You are only interested in re-emphasizing and agreeing on what you already believe to be the on;y answers in this case. There is not any alternative explanations for any of these questions in your eyes. Only those answers with which you already are totally invested in and know to be the truth.

Yet even your own spokesman admits that all the answers are not yet available as to who to assign total culpability. This is too funny. Its a shame you and your buddies don't see the irony here.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

I really don't care one way or another. I do lean toward other than the collapse being caused by planes ALONE.
Fact:The towers were destroyed.
Fact: The cleanup afterward was at record speed. People with cameras were threatened with arrest if pictures were taken.

Fact: When evidence is destroyed or relocated out of public view, one is only left with theory.

Fact: There are too many stories and theories related to this event which leaves me to suspect there are things hidden from the publics view and correct understanding.

Fact: Since there had already been buildings blown up by terrorists, why would this be any different

This isn't a fact.

Fact: I presented this info thinking it would help those in favor of conspiracy. Apparently, I was wrong. And that's okay, it isn't worth argueing about.
Fact: The scene described by the fireman is not theory.

Fact: If you are so concerned as to how the towers fell, why didn't you rush to Groundzero and check it out for yourself following the collapse?

Personally, I was gung-ho Iraq war at the time. How dare them Al Qaeda!

Fact: Asking for evidence on how the buildings came down, at this point, is like asking me or anyone else to provide evidence that heaven truly exists. Sometimes we have to accept the best possible eyewitness as to the event at hand.

There's plenty of facts on how the buildings fell.

1. FACT- Evidence of Molten Iron (already presented here) [color=#FF0000]Col Flagg said this is just theory2. FACT- All towers fell at free-fall speed. (already presented here) Col Flagg said this is just theory
3. FACTs- pages 1-6 of this thread.

Theory= Case presented with the facts at hand. So far, the facts don't add up in favor of 19 hijackers/men in caves conspiracy.
[/color]

Theory = what might have happened
None theory = what some say did happen according to Physics involved
http://911research.wtc7.net/materials/e ... /flyer.pdf

I'm confused, freedomfighter... just by looking at the links you provided, makes me think you know much about the facts of 9/11. Just playing devil's advocate?

Having read None Dare Call It Conspiracy, a book recommended by President Benson, I now understand that nothing in government happens by accident, it is planned. (The WTC is not an isolated incident) One doesn't need to theorize to understand this. I believe the gov. allowed the Pearl Harbor attack too, having read the aforementioned book. President Obama is currently trying to downsize the military, right? Another way to weaken the USA for takeover by the NWO.

I just don't appreciate, having presented many possible facts as to what happened, in favor of the conspiracy theorists, I'm told they are just theories by someone I thought was in favor of not accepting the mere idea that the planes caused a fire, and the fire brought down the building. Just what does this kind of response do to provide my efforts any merit?

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Fact: Since there had already been buildings blown up by terrorists, why would this be any different

Which buildings?

The Oklahoma City bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oklahoma_City_bombing

I was also told this is not FACT. Go figure.