Any Supporters of the Independent American Party out there?

[5tev3captain of 100]

Just out of curiosity, what are people's thoughts on the Independent American Party? I've seen their candidates on the ballots in the state I live, but what are the thoughts generally about the idea of such a party?

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

The Independent American Party will end up being for independents, that vast space between hard core leftists, socialists, communists, and the Nazi party reps, who confuse the "right" from left politically with the "right" from wrong morally--- The scripture says "let there be moderation in all things!" All things includes politics!

Where are you?

Bob

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I was the Utah County Chairman for the IAP at one point and helped draft the national platform. I consider Will Christensen, the National Chairman as a close personal friend, and I spent many evenings at his house learning from him (back when he lived in Provo.) Will is really a modern day Captain Moroni - great man. I was in the CP for a couple of years and then left to join the GOP to support Ron Paul in the primaries in 2008.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

According to the autobiography of Mosiah Hancock, "The next day the Prophet came to our home and stopped in our carpenter shop and stood by the turning lathe..." Among the things Brother Hancock wrote was that Joseph Smith stated that "There will be two great political parties in this country. One will be called the Republican, and the other the Democrat party. These two parties will go to war and out of these two parties will spring another party which will be the Independent American Party."

As I understand, The Independent American Party is an affiliate of The Constitution Party. As Treasurer of the Maricopa County (AZ) Constitution Party I was able to vote for Ron Paul in the primaries, and get ballot write in access for Constitution Party Presidential Candidate Chuck Baldwin in 2008, which gave voters of conservative/constitutional persuasions the chance to vote for a principled candidate instead of John McCain, who was what the GOP had to offer.

[sbsioncaptain of 1,000]

I was the Utah County Chairman for the IAP at one point and helped draft the national platform. I consider Will Christensen, the National Chairman as a close personal friend, and I spent many evenings at his house learning from him (back when he lived in Provo.) Will is really a modern day Captain Moroni - great man. I was in the CP for a couple of years and then left to join the GOP to support Ron Paul in the primaries in 2008.

so was I during the Wallace compaign, Will was a precinct chairman and on the "board", likewise VHAnderson, too me, the AIP was a "mislabel", it is the "Teaparty" today......prophecy fulfilled!!!!!

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

As of today the Independent American Party is a non issue. Will it become a positive issue Joseph Smith through Mosiah Hancock seemed to think it might be. The Tea Party, who I have supported financially, seems to have been compromised.

Thing is, political parties will not save this country, only repentance will save this country and it will happen after a great cleansing. Our Lord is quite capable of sifting the wheat and bundling the tares, is presently in the process of doing so. What amazes me is some of us here seem somewhat surprised that the Lord will do to us what he did to the Nephites in ancient times (Helaman 6 through 3rd Nephi 8).

The best explanation to political parties I have is this; The far right and the far left are standing back to back on the same circle yelling at now one in particular. 180 degrees from the backs of those two very loud noisy groups on that circle is where I stand, as far away from them as I can be. Knowing also that I better be prepared for the cleansing thats coming, understanding with complete clarity that Our Lord is in charge, knowing what he has done in the past to devotees of political tares, be they on the far right politically or on the far left.

Bugsy Trump doesn't impress me, while I love ererybody, loving some a whole bunch more than I love others, I admit I have little love for Obama, so I'll support the Priesthood holder who runs. If one doesn't run I'll support the Republican candidate. But I refuse to waste my vote on a none issue third party candidate who has no chance of winning, and is in effect, throwing my vote away, giving Obama the advantage, and Obama is my last choice for President by a minus -100 percent.

As far as our economy goes, the jobs created by opening up just our vast reserves of natural resources, stop paying our farmers not to farm, allow them to farm and selling that product would increase our GNP substantially, and would get our country out of debt faster than the stupidity thats happening in Washington today. But that won't happen, there are few with the guts to face the power of the inviros in this matter. If, and thats a big "IF" we could elect a president who had the guts to declare a national energy and jobs emergency, then it could happen, again "if" and only if repentance and righteousness prevailed among our people, something I don't see happening until after the cleansing.

The Lord is withdrawing his Spirit from our country and the world-----when the missionaries are called home, then is when we better be prepared, if we're not, it'll be to late!

Bob

[believercaptain of 100]

I totally agree with you Bob. The decisions made by our government are getting more and more stupid. It hurts to see it though, because I love my country. After the cleansing, we will be able to become a Zion society. I can't see it done for the whole country now. But we can have Zion in our hearts and homes now if we work toward it. And we can work and prepare for becoming a Zion Society when, through the prophet when the time is right.


Believer

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Regarding the "Independent American Party" prophecy, it is important to note that Joseph Smith never claimed that it would save the nation - just that it would form due to people being sick of the warring Dem and Republican parties. He didn't even state it would be a particularly good party iirc.

I do not believe that the USIAP as currently formed is the party spoken of by J.S. I think it was fromed for the purpose of fulfilling prophecy, and I think there are some very good people leading it and in it.

I think the Tea Party is compromised, but I think it is more likely to grow into the Independent American Party of prophecy than the USIAP. I believe that the IAP spoken of in prophecy will likely start out as a non party, but rather a group of individuals who believe that America should disentangle itself from the foreign policy nightmare that we find ourselves in. I think that will be their unifying principle, and they will also believe that we should be independent (sovereign) individuals and be very strong on state nullification, pro-life, and pro-Constitution.

My personal belief is that they will not field their own candidates, but will start out seeking and endorsing the best candidates within other parties - including third-parties. I believe that they will promote the idea that political parties as currently constituted are not in the best interests of the citizens. I believe they will be people that are tired of the political party bosses and people with access and/or money dictating how the counrty will be run. At some point it might become a political party but it will be set up along completely different lines than current political parties, party positions will not give any benefit, they will be more administrative and qualify more as "service" than anything that bestows any political benefit.

I wish the IAP and the CP would merge, I think it could be the start of something.

[chicafoomcaptain of 100]

The Independent American Party will end up being for independents, that vast space between hard core leftists, socialists, communists, and the Nazi party reps, who confuse the "right" from left politically with the "right" from wrong morally--- The scripture says "let there be moderation in all things!" All things includes politics!

Where are you?

Bob

Bob, sorry to strain at gnats, but this moderation in all things idea has me puzzled. I've been taught it my whole life, but for the life of me, I haven't found it in scripture. Can you provide a verse? The only thing that comes up when doing a topical search is Phillipians 4:5 and that doesn't seem to have anything to do with moderation in all things to me, at least. From what I understand, the idea of moderation in all things come from Aristotle. I am not sure LDS doctrine promotes moderation in all things. Moderation in some things, sure, but moderation often means compromise and compromise of truth and principles isn't part of God's plan as far as I see things. Sorry for the tangent, but I don't know that using moderation in politics is always a good thing. I don't want to be a centrist. I hope the Independent American Party can be the vehicle for true liberty, as prescribed by the Constitution. The Constitution is hardly moderate according to most people so I wouldn't support them in a moderate view. As they currently are, I don't know much about them. There aren't candidates of that party where I've voted.

[5tev3captain of 100]

As of today the Independent American Party is a non issue. Will it become a positive issue Joseph Smith through Mosiah Hancock seemed to think it might be. The Tea Party, who I have supported financially, seems to have been compromised.

I too believe the tea party is compromised. However, I don't necessarily think the Independent American Party, or any of these other small parties are non-issues per se. I was speaking to someone pretty high up in the party and they told me that they personally did not believe that they would be able to save the government of the land, that it's too far gone; I happen to agree. This person indicated that they believed, as I do, that a government collapse is inevitable and that they saw their efforts as a way to proclaim correct principles so that all may know where to turn when the you-know-what hits the fan. This perspective is supported by prophecy and scripture.

Thing is, political parties will not save this country, only repentance will save this country and it will happen after a great cleansing. Our Lord is quite capable of sifting the wheat and bundling the tares, is presently in the process of doing so. What amazes me is some of us here seem somewhat surprised that the Lord will do to us what he did to the Nephites in ancient times (Helaman 6 through 3rd Nephi 8).

The best explanation to political parties I have is this; The far right and the far left are standing back to back on the same circle yelling at now one in particular. 180 degrees from the backs of those two very loud noisy groups on that circle is where I stand, as far away from them as I can be. Knowing also that I better be prepared for the cleansing thats coming, understanding with complete clarity that Our Lord is in charge, knowing what he has done in the past to devotees of political tares, be they on the far right politically or on the far left.

Agreed. Political parties will not save us, but parties are nothing more than people proclaiming certain ideologies. In the unique case of the IAP, their focus seems to be on principles, specifically, which I find interesting. The big 2 parties are nothing more that puppet arms of corrupt combinations, they cannot proclaim correct principles because all of their platforms are not based on correct principles. They can beat others with money but they cannot compete with us on principle.

The way I'm starting to think is that maybe it's time to give up the fight for control over the corrupt fascist state that exists now and focus our efforts on proclaiming the true principles of government so that we may draw together the honest in heart. I think utilizing platforms like the IAP and others might be beneficial.

Bugsy Trump doesn't impress me, while I love ererybody, loving some a whole bunch more than I love others, I admit I have little love for Obama, so I'll support the Priesthood holder who runs. If one doesn't run I'll support the Republican candidate. But I refuse to waste my vote on a none issue third party candidate who has no chance of winning, and is in effect, throwing my vote away, giving Obama the advantage, and Obama is my last choice for President by a minus -100 percent.

Your comment about loving others could probably be summed up a little better by saying that, yes, we love everyone, we can even love them with all our heart, especially our enemies. It's just that we trust others more or less than others. God loves all with an equal love, but his trust varies by individual. Just a thought.

Bob, I have to disagree completely with your view on wasting your vote on someone that "doesn't have a chance". Your vote is a black and white statement, it is one of approval or disapproval. Read carefully this quote from Hyrum Smith: "We engage in the election the same as in any other principle: you are to vote for good men, and if you do not do this it is a sin: to vote for wicked men, it would be sin. Choose the good and refuse the evil. Men of false principles have preyed upon us like wolves upon helpless lambs. Damn the rod of tyranny; curse it. Let every man use his liberties according to the Constitution. Don’t fear man or devil; electioneer with all people, male and female, and exhort them to do the thing that is right."
Hyrum Smith, Source: History of the Church, Vol.6, Ch.15, p.323

Then consider Doctrine and Covenants 98:4-10
5 And that law of the land which is constitutional, supporting that principle of freedom in maintaining rights and privileges, belongs to all mankind, and is justifiable before me.
6 Therefore, I, the Lord, justify you, and your brethren of my church, in befriending that law which is the constitutional law of the land;
7 And as pertaining to law of man, whatsoever is more or less than this, cometh of evil.
8 I, the Lord God, make you free, therefore ye are free indeed; and the law also maketh you free.
9 Nevertheless, when the wicked rule the people mourn.
10 Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

Voting for less than what is good is evil. The final point is from John Quincy Adams and I think this one is the best of all: "Always vote for principle, though you may vote alone, and you may cherish the sweetest reflection that your vote is never lost."

A wasted vote, is a vote to settle for evil, although it happens to be 'lesser' whatever that means. To me it's like arguing whether or not we should vote for Mao or Hitler and ignoring the one unpopular good man because he is ignored by the great and spacious building. If we do not vote for the one good man and place our vote, albeit uncomfortably, on the side of evil, then we have indeed sided with evil. We have in fact rejected the good for what will only continue to abuse us.

As long as people have that same attitude, that they are 'wasting' their votes, we will continue to see the beast with it's one red leg and one blue leg continue to trample us. That view is a major part of the problem we face today. You will get no mercy from from either and you will be held responsible, I believe for abandoning principle for popularity. I'm honestly not trying to bash you Bob, I used to think the exact same way and I know many others who I love who also think that way. I'm not trying to judge I'm just trying to point this out and reason that this is in fact the truth of the whole matter. Is it not evil to vote for evil because we don't see a rally of support around the good?

Should we not seek out good and honest men and no matter what chance we think they have of winning still cast our voice and support behind them? We may not make a difference this time, but little by little, a continual support for good will gain strength and momentum. We may be way too late to fix the government, but we can at least strengthen and support true principles and men who fight for them in our behalf by sticking out their necks and putting their own fortunes on the like to do their duty. I would vote for a man like that, not a puppet.

I'm considering offering my support to the IAP because and, really, only because they confided in me that their main goal was to promote and proclaim true principles. Many of which were outlined by Skousen in the 5000 year leap and from our founding documents and from Biblical roots.

I'm a graphic designer by trade and I haven't done much to promote liberty and freedom in my life. I haven't known what to do. I grew up in the government school system and was the first in my family to attend college. I grew frustrated that I felt so compartmentalized to a lesser class by virtue of my understanding of things so for years I have studied the constitution, law, the gospel and correct principles so that I might understand how things work. I'm not an expert, but I know enough to know that I can make a difference. So I'm going to try my hand at utilizing fine-tuned skills in graphic design to take true principles and make them easier for the general public to understand. It's all I can do right now and if at any point I can do more, I want to. I feel incredibly compelled to act and all I care about is principles. Principles are the foundation of doctrine and all ideas. Bad laws cannot be established upon good principles. Bad laws exist because they are built on bad principles.

If we can educate people about these principles, they will be empowered to vote properly and know what to support and what to no support not because they know the specifics of the program, but because they understand the simple and beautiful principles that need to exist beforehand.

As far as our economy goes, the jobs created by opening up just our vast reserves of natural resources, stop paying our farmers to farm, allow them to farm and selling that product would increase our GNP substantially, and would get our country out of debt faster than the stupidity thats happening in Washington today. But that won't happen, there are few with the guts to face the power of the inviros in this matter. If, and thats a big "IF" we could elect a president who had the guts to declare a national energy and jobs emergency, then it could happen, again "if" and only if repentance and righteousness prevailed among our people, something I don't see happening until after the cleansing.

Bob, I have a different view on the whole 'voting' process but if we had more time to discuss it, I think we might agree more than we think. There are prophecies about the constitution hanging by a thread or hair. Brigham Young also spoke of the constitution being torn to shreds. Interestingly, Spencer W. Kimball went so far as to identify what that single thread IS: "Our great Constitution has been beaten and torn until now it hangs by a single thread, and that thread is our franchise to vote." (Ezra Taft Benson, 1976, Freeman Institute, Provo, Utah)

The idea I am proposing is that if we have lost our franchise to vote, then the constitution no longer hangs by a thread. I am proposing that this is our current situation. There were voting problems in Florida back during the Bush/Gore Election and in Iowa during the Bush/Kerry election. One of Bush's brothers, Jeb, was the governor of Florida during that debacle, Bush's other brother Neil Bush was a founder of Diebold who manufactures most of our voting machines. Coincidence? Maybe. The problems with electronic voting machines is that they can be hacked, this is a fact. Since Diebold's code and procedures are top secret, there are not really any checks and balances with the system. I am stating that I believe that we no longer and haven't for a while, voted for our leaders; at least at the national level. Recently on a local level, Harry Reid won an election where there were some suspicious things that happened. Coincidentally, Harry Reid's son Rory Reid is the Clarke County Commissioner where the vote stealing allegations took place. I'm telling you that the evidence is overwhelming that the entire system is a complete sham. I've linked to some videos and documentaries in the post below that show how the voting machines can be rigged.
http://oneclimbs.com/2011/01/23/has-the ... d-snapped/

The Lord is withdrawing his Spirit from our country and the world-----when the missionaries are called home, then is when we better be prepared, if we're not, it'll be to late!

Bob

I do believe this is coming very rapidly. I also think that it is our duty until then to proclaim the correct principles of free government so that those who wander will know who they can turn to in finding a people that uphold liberty and just law.

In 2008, Elder Packer gave a talk recounting this experience from church history:
"Now on this 24th of July in 1849, free at last from the mobbings, they planned to celebrate. Everything the Saints owned would come across a thousand miles (1,600 km) of desert by handcart or covered wagon. It would be 20 more years before the railroad came as far as Salt Lake City. With almost nothing to work with, they determined that the celebration would be a grand expression of their feelings...Then followed 24 young men dressed in white pants; black coats; white scarves on their right shoulders; coronets, or crowns, on their heads; and a sheathed sword at their left sides. In their right hand, of all things, each carried a copy of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution of the United States. The Declaration of Independence was read by one of those young men." http://lds.org/general-conference/2008/ ... dependence

Do you see what was happening? Young Priesthood holders of the church were carrying, symbolically, the Constitution and Declaration of Independence out of the United States of America! I believe Packer stated this as an allusion to what will happen literally here in our day. It is this, that I believe we must prepare for. I have much more to say on the topic, but this will do for now.

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

saw their efforts as a way to proclaim correct principles so that all may know where to turn when the you-know-what hits the fan. This perspective is supported by prophecy and scripture.

At this point in time I consider it more important for me to proclaim correct (Gospel and Constitutional) principles than to support any of the recent past presidential candidates I know of other than Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin. As an officer (treasurer) in the local Constitution Party, a member of the John Birch Society, and a participant in 2 local tea parties I fine many good opportunities to proclaim correct (Gospel and Constitutional) principles. These activities enable me to help prepare that "remnant" that will know where to turn when the time comes to restore constitutional principoles to government. These activities also provide opportunities for me to awaken some LDSs to our responsibility to the Constitution and its preservation/restoration.

The members of the AZ Constitution Party that I see the most of are perfectly willing to endorse and support a candidate of another party provided that candidate demonstrates allegiance to the principles of the Constitution Party.

[5tev3captain of 100]

saw their efforts as a way to proclaim correct principles so that all may know where to turn when the you-know-what hits the fan. This perspective is supported by prophecy and scripture.

At this point in time I consider it more important for me to proclaim correct (Gospel and Constitutional) principles than to support any of the recent past presidential candidates I know of other than Ron Paul and Chuck Baldwin. As an officer (treasurer) in the local Constitution Party, a member of the John Birch Society, and a participant in 2 local tea parties I fine many good opportunities to proclaim correct (Gospel and Constitutional) principles. These activities enable me to help prepare that "remnant" that will know where to turn when the time comes to restore constitutional principoles to government. These activities also provide opportunities for me to awaken some LDSs to our responsibility to the Constitution and its preservation/restoration.

The members of the AZ Constitution Party that I see the most of are perfectly willing to endorse and support a candidate of another party provided that candidate demonstrates allegiance to the principles of the Constitution Party.

I can support your position. I do believe it is helpful to us to support ANY organization or party that stands for true principles and not limit ourselves to one. I put my support behind Chuck Baldwin last election when most of my extended family thought I was foolish for doing so, that my vote counted for nothing.

I believe that their votes for McCain counted for less than nothing, I would even go so far to state that I believe they counted for evil. I felt after voting for Baldwin that I was putting my support by a man who had the courage to stand for true principles, who called out the evils of the Federal Reserve and many other vices in our current system.

Just think what would have happened if McCain got in. Nothing different that what we have now. I just finished an article about "wasting your vote" that was inspired by this thread, It'll be live Monday at oneClimbs.com

I've really enjoyed the exchange on this post and everyone's comments. Let's keep it going!

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My judgement as to who's wicked and who isn't belongs to me and me alone. Were I to listen to everybody's opinion I would never find someone to vote for. I'll vote for the best man/woman that come closest to my principals who is running. Since I lean to the conservative side, one of the things I use to judge a fellow conservative is to see who hates him/her the most. If the liberals are constantly attacking a candidate that tells me they fear that person. Thats the one I'll look hardest at supporting! If for example they're paying no attention to someone, like Ron Paul, He'll not get my vote. As good a person as Ron Paul is, politically, he's like a potted plant in the corner nobody notices!

Bob

[5tev3captain of 100]

Bob, that logic seems very flawed and subject to manipulation.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

By your own words politically, what part of politics isn't subject to manipulation?

Bob

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Bob, sorry to strain at gnats, but this moderation in all things idea has me puzzled. I've been taught it my whole life, but for the life of me, I haven't found it in scripture. Can you provide a verse? The only thing that comes up when doing a topical search is Phillipians 4:5 and that doesn't seem to have anything to do with moderation in all things to me, at least. From what I understand, the idea of moderation in all things come from Aristotle. I am not sure LDS doctrine promotes moderation in all things. Moderation in some things, sure, but moderation often means compromise and compromise of truth and principles isn't part of God's plan as far as I see things. Sorry for the tangent, but I don't know that using moderation in politics is always a good thing. I don't want to be a centrist. I hope the Independent American Party can be the vehicle for true liberty, as prescribed by the Constitution. The Constitution is hardly moderate according to most people so I wouldn't support them in a moderate view. As they currently are, I don't know much about them. There aren't candidates of that party where I've voted.

1 But in all matters, temporal or spiritual, preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ, or in leading an army to battle, victory almost entirely depends upon good order and moderation. (Joseph Smith, History of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, 7 Vols. 5:389)

Sorry Sis, I just realized my answer to you was very abrupt, and your question had to do with the canonized scripture. I believe all the recorded words of the Prophet Joseph Smith is scripture, canonized or not! His "moderation" statement has been repeated enough by modern day prophets that I think it safe to accept.

I don't mean to sound abrupt, I'll always wish people would hear me in the same humble tone as Elder Scott. But, people will hear me as they choose, I have no control over that!

Bob

[5tev3captain of 100]

By your own words politically, what part of politics isn't subject to manipulation?

Bob

Ha ha, Sorry, I just realized how vague that comment was. What I was trying to say is the media spin that goes along with the major spin in the two parties is directed to make us think what they want us to think. So if 'liberals' are attacking someone it may be to draw attention to that person. Could it be that the fact that they ignore people is their way of neutralizing them? So in that sense, if you are voting for someone because of who appears to not like them, that seems to be a very ineffective way to make a proper choice.

There are good men and women who run for the various offices in our government. It's our duty to put forth the effort in seeking these people out. D&C 98:10 says:"Wherefore, honest men and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye should observe to uphold; otherwise whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil.

We are obligated to seek for good candidates and not just wait for the puppets the media and the 2 major parties deliver to us.

You mentioned Ron Paul, that he is good but then commented that nobody notices him. Think about the reasons that this might be and then think about how we may be just as guilty for his being a 'potted plant' because we do not put forth the effort to stand behind someone like him.

Nobody outside the establishment can win without the support of the people and it begins with us. We need to stop thinking about whether someone CAN win or not. We should be thinking whether or not they SHOULD win. If we voted on who SHOULD win rather on who COULD win, things would begin to change, slowly but surely. It begins when we withdraw our support entirely from the red and blue parties. They are not liberals or conservatives, they are owned by the evil one. The Book of Mormon and modern prophets speak of a vast world-wide conspiracy. Joseph Fielding Smith says that the President and the other governing bodies are now in the complete control of Satan himself. So yes, I believe that we can call them wicked if they serve under the organizations owned by that system.

Now Ron Paul has run as a Republican and may do so again in the future, he will not get my vote if he does so. If a presidential candidate seemingly stands for 'good' principles but is a card-carrying member of SUR-13 (a Mexican mafia gang) then I wouldn't vote for him either. I consider the Democrat and Republican parties a wing to the most powerful and destructive gang on the earth.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

My judgement as to who's wicked and who isn't belongs to me and me alone. Were I to listen to everybody's opinion I would never find someone to vote for. I'll vote for the best man/woman that come closest to my principals who is running. Since I lean to the conservative side, one of the things I use to judge a fellow conservative is to see who hates him/her the most. If the liberals are constantly attacking a candidate that tells me they fear that person. Thats the one I'll look hardest at supporting! If for example they're paying no attention to someone, like Ron Paul, He'll not get my vote. As good a person as Ron Paul is, politically, he's like a potted plant in the corner nobody notices!

Bob

"Oh no Brer Fox, PLEEASE do anything but throw me in that briar patch!"

You say in one breath you will support thae candidate who is closest to your principles that is running, then you say you will support who ever the liberals seem most scared of, in another post you say you will only vote for someone who is most likely to win that supports your principles.

As principled and wise as I think you are in many things, you are a very conflicted and confused person in regards to your duty in regards to government. You might be able to vote For Trump though, he knows how to get attention. Or maybe someone wrapped in the flag (McCain) or holding a cross (Hucksterbee) or wearng the habiliments of the holy priesthood (Romney).

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. ... We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

My judgement as to who's wicked and who isn't belongs to me and me alone. Were I to listen to everybody's opinion I would never find someone to vote for. I'll vote for the best man/woman that come closest to my principals who is running. Since I lean to the conservative side, one of the things I use to judge a fellow conservative is to see who hates him/her the most. If the liberals are constantly attacking a candidate that tells me they fear that person. Thats the one I'll look hardest at supporting! If for example they're paying no attention to someone, like Ron Paul, He'll not get my vote. As good a person as Ron Paul is, politically, he's like a potted plant in the corner nobody notices!

Bob

"Oh no Brer Fox, PLEEASE do anything but throw me in that briar patch!"

You say in one breath you will support thae candidate who is closest to your principles that is running, then you say you will support who ever the liberals seem most scared of, in another post you say you will only vote for someone who is most likely to win that supports your principles.

As principled and wise as I think you are in many things, you are a very conflicted and confused person in regards to your duty in regards to government. You might be able to vote For Trump though, he knows how to get attention. Or maybe someone wrapped in the flag (McCain) or holding a cross (Hucksterbee) or wearng the habiliments of the holy priesthood (Romney).

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. ... We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)

Misinterpret what I say anyway you wish OI, I'll support who I wish, you support who you wish and we'll get along fine. As far as I'm concerned I don't care how you vote. You obviously have forgotten that the process happens in steps, and as each step happens my decisions on who I support may very well change. But one thing I will not do is waste my final vote on a potted plant! I know and understand how people will rave on and on about how wicked a particular candidate is, your a perfect example of that raving! But I listen to my heart, not the noise people you and others here create.

I've been ask why I think the T party has been compromised? I believe the dems have infiltrated the T party and will push hard to to run a third party candidate against Obama and the final rub candidate, thereby splitting the rub vote for whoever the rubs nominate, guaranteeing Obama the election victory. As mentioned before, I have little love for the man, and a vote for a potted plant equals a vote for Obama, and somehow, I get the feeling that's exactly what you guys raving on about Mitt's supposed wickedness really want!

My opinion!

Bob

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Well we agree on the Tea Party being compromised, if you think I want an Obama win, you are off the reservation. I'd rather vote for a potted plant, literally, if it was the choice between a terrible candidate, a bad candidate and the plant, you are right I will vote for the plant every time.

[Markcaptain of 1,000]

My judgement as to who's wicked and who isn't belongs to me and me alone. Were I to listen to everybody's opinion I would never find someone to vote for. I'll vote for the best man/woman that come closest to my principals who is running. Since I lean to the conservative side, one of the things I use to judge a fellow conservative is to see who hates him/her the most. If the liberals are constantly attacking a candidate that tells me they fear that person. Thats the one I'll look hardest at supporting! If for example they're paying no attention to someone, like Ron Paul, He'll not get my vote. As good a person as Ron Paul is, politically, he's like a potted plant in the corner nobody notices!

Bob

"Oh no Brer Fox, PLEEASE do anything but throw me in that briar patch!"

You say in one breath you will support thae candidate who is closest to your principles that is running, then you say you will support who ever the liberals seem most scared of, in another post you say you will only vote for someone who is most likely to win that supports your principles.

As principled and wise as I think you are in many things, you are a very conflicted and confused person in regards to your duty in regards to government. You might be able to vote For Trump though, he knows how to get attention. Or maybe someone wrapped in the flag (McCain) or holding a cross (Hucksterbee) or wearng the habiliments of the holy priesthood (Romney).

President J. Reuben Clark, Jr., warned that "the ravening wolves are amongst us from our own membership and they, more than any others, are clothed in sheep's clothing, because they wear the habiliments of the Priesthood. ... We should be careful of them." (The Improvement Era, May 1949, p. 268.)

You strongly insinuate that Bro Romney is one of those ravening wolves spoken of by Pres. Clark. Falsely accusing your brother of this type of wickedness publicly is a serious offense Bro. so I hope for your sakes that you have sufficient evidence and confirmation to back up that charge.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

His record is sufficient evidence, and anyone who refuses to see that is willfully blind, I'll include any authority in or out of the church in that appraisal.

Anyone that backs Romney is sacrificing principle for the pragmatic hope that having an LDS in "high places" will somehow help the church.

Harry Reid is one of the most powerful people in the U.S., and I'd say his membership in the church combined with his position of power has harmed rather than helped the image of the church and missionary effort.

If this country was serious about its politics and weren't more interested in American Idol than what is going on in the world, Howard Trump, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, et al would be a laughingstock. The only reason they are taken seriously is because the media treats them as if they should be taken seriously, and 90% of Americans take their queues from the media - including those that they think they should support "because the media is obviously so afraid of them."

L O L. We truly deserve everything we have coming.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

His record is sufficient evidence, and anyone who refuses to see that is willfully blind, I'll include any authority in or out of the church in that appraisal.

Anyone that backs Romney is sacrificing principle for the pragmatic hope that having an LDS in "high places" will somehow help the church.

Harry Reid is one of the most powerful people in the U.S., and I'd say his membership in the church combined with his position of power has harmed rather than helped the image of the church and missionary effort.

If this country was serious about its politics and weren't more interested in American Idol than what is going on in the world, Howard Trump, Mitt Romney, Sarah Palin, et al would be a laughingstock. The only reason they are taken seriously is because the media treats them as if they should be taken seriously, and 90% of Americans take their queues from the media - including those that they think they should support "because the media is obviously so afraid of them."

L O L. We truly deserve everything we have coming.

The Lord will take care of his Church. I'm looking for our King Hezekiah, our Captain Moroni, priesthood holders themselves. I'm looking for the man like Hezekiah who consulted with the prophet. At the moment, the only guy I see like that is Mitt. I'm not interested in Mitt dropping on his knees in front of me and begging my forgiveness for what he's done in the past, he has a church authority for that. Because he holds the priesthood Mitt is who I'll support, as far as I can see, he's the only one running who fits the Hezekiah analogy, a man who was guilty of idol worship before he was "shocked" by the Lord. As was Alma the Younger, the four sons of Mosiah, Paul, and many others who repented and were forgiven of their faults, not their perceived faults, their real faults. OI, would you have voted for Alma the Younger as Chief Judge?

In my 70 years I've watched many people who voted for the potted plants. I've watched them stand up tall, thump their chest and proudly proclaim they didn't vote for he who won, that SOB, when in fact in voting for the potted plant, thats exactly what they did. I've discovered that all the potted plant voters want "is" the ability to stand tall, thump their chest, and proudly proclaim who they "didn't" vote for, it didn't really matter who won!

I had high hopes for the T party, supported them I did, if the T party becomes the third party and fields a presidential candidate he'd better be a winner, a great guy, a clean closet, because he'll get slaughtered in the election if he isn't!

Bob

[5tev3captain of 100]

So how is voting for the cherry-picked establishment candidate any better than voting for the 'potted-plant'? The reason these 'potted-plants' don't get the support they need is because people have that same kind of attitude, that their vote will be 'wasted'. A vote for a good man is not a wasted vote. Ultimately, Bob, if you feel like Mitt's your man and that is where you feel prompted to go then nobody can argue with you on what you feel.

However if our prophets have already declared that Satan is in control of the governments of the world, where does that leave us?

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

It was Joseph Fielding Smith who wrote in his “Doctrines of Salvation”, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315 that “Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.” The Lord told us thru Moroni where that would leave us. He told us that “the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.” Off hand, I’d say we have suffered these things to be.

Who is the “we” who have disobeyed God by suffering these things to be. Of course the people who knowingly involved themselves in the conspiracy to destroy American sovereignty and our constitutional republic and replace it with a global socialist dictatorship are in the deepest. What about all the Americans who have never heard or read of these warnings? To what extent could it be the responsibility of those who in ignorance contributed to our “awful situation” by inaction and/or poor judgement? Then there’s that other lot that had the warnings of both ancient and modern prophets and ignored them. But won’t they be forgiven if they do their home/visiting teaching, get to the temple, perform acts of charity, pay their tithing, etc.?

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

It was Joseph Fielding Smith who wrote in his “Doctrines of Salvation”, Vol. 3, pp. 314-315 that “Satan has control now. No matter where you look, he is in control, even in our own land. He is guiding the governments as far as the Lord will permit him. That is why there is so much strife, turmoil, confusion all over the earth. One master mind is governing the nations. It is not the President of the United States...it is not the king or government of England or any other land; it is Satan himself.” The Lord told us thru Moroni where that would leave us. He told us that “the sword of the justice of the Eternal God shall fall upon you, to your overthrow and destruction if ye shall suffer these things to be.” Off hand, I’d say we have suffered these things to be.

Who is the “we” who have disobeyed God by suffering these things to be. Of course the people who knowingly involved themselves in the conspiracy to destroy American sovereignty and our constitutional republic and replace it with a global socialist dictatorship are in the deepest. What about all the Americans who have never heard or read of these warnings? To what extent could it be the responsibility of those who in ignorance contributed to our “awful situation” by inaction and/or poor judgement? Then there’s that other lot that had the warnings of both ancient and modern prophets and ignored them. But won’t they be forgiven if they do their home/visiting teaching, get to the temple, perform acts of charity, pay their tithing, etc.?

Along these lines...

I presume there are members of the church that do not know the Savior and His teachings as to how to be righteous. They are social members.

There are members who "feast upon the word" and become acquinted with the Savior and His teachings and learn what it takes to be righteous. These are grounded in the gospel.

There are candidates for high gov. positions that could care less about God.

There are candidates that possess a desire to do and be what a christian would desire to be even though they do not possess the knowledge a grounded LDS would. However, they do according to their knowledge. That's all that can be expected given the circumstances.

We must pick a person we feel possesses a desire for good, even when they lack. Mitt Romney, although LDS, does not, nor should be voted for on the premis of him representing church values. He nor anyone else is in there trying to help or save the church in some way. A candidate should be voted for by their merit of righteous qualification. If they lose, one cannot be held responsible for voting for said candidate. A vote is not wasted in that way. What's a waste is when voters place a vote for someone that condones the evils the Lord abhors, no matter who the candidate is. Now days our choice is slim indeed.

In doing this, we in no way waste our vote

My feelings.

[5tev3captain of 100]

Well said freedomfighter. I always ask members: "Would you vote for Mitt if he wasn't a Mormon?" Then I watch for the funny faces as their gears turn.

[freedomfightercaptain of 1,000]

Well said freedomfighter. I always ask members: "Would you vote for Mitt if he wasn't a Mormon?" Then I watch for the funny faces as their gears turn.

Thanks

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

So how is voting for the cherry-picked establishment candidate any better than voting for the 'potted-plant'? The reason these 'potted-plants' don't get the support they need is because people have that same kind of attitude, that their vote will be 'wasted'. A vote for a good man is not a wasted vote. Ultimately, Bob, if you feel like Mitt's your man and that is where you feel prompted to go then nobody can argue with you on what you feel.

However if our prophets have already declared that Satan is in control of the governments of the world, where does that leave us?

So, why are we having this conversation??

Bob

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Well said freedomfighter. I always ask members: "Would you vote for Mitt if he wasn't a Mormon?" Then I watch for the funny faces as their gears turn.

Probable not, I would encourage a holder of the priesthood to run!

Bob