We’re surely in it now: Hel/3 Nephi, Revelation, D&C 29, 45,

[tribraccaptain of 100]

Here is J. Reuben Clark's take on the cause of what will cause "neighbor to kill neighbor":

Could you post a source for this? I'm interested in "fullness of iniquity" or ripened for destruction. It seems that BoM societies hit a point of no-return and maybe J Reuben could explain it more.

[GeeRcaptain of 100]

Ether 14:1-2 a great curse upon the land



Both the Nephites and the Jaredites suffered the curse of the 8th commandment, thou shalt not steal (Ex 20:15). The natural effect of a society which ignores this commandment is the chaos and paranoia described among the Jaredites. The Nephite treasures similarly became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land…for behold no man could keep that which was his own, for the thieves and the robbers…in the land (Mormon 1:18; 2:10). Again, the Book of Mormon teaches us that when we obtain any cursing from God, it is by disobedience to that law upon which it is predicated (see DC 130:21). That a man should lay his tool or his sword upon his shelf, and then, on the morrow, not find it was because of the collective Jaredite disobedience to the 8th commandment.



The First Presidency

“We are not given the step-by-step backsliding of this Jareditic civilization till it reached the social and governmental chaos the record sets out, but those steps seem wholly clear from the results. Put into modern terms, we can understand them. First there was a forsaking of the righteous life, and the working of wickedness; then must have come the extortion and oppression of the poor by the rich; then retaliation and reprisal by the poor against the rich; then would come a cry to share the wealth which should belong to all; then the easy belief that society owed every man a living whether he worked or not; then the keeping of a great body of idlers; then when community revenues failed to do this, as they always have failed and always will fail, a self-helping by one to the goods of his neighbor; and finally when the neighbor resisted, as resist he must, or starve with his family, then death to the neighbor and all that belonged to him. This was the decreed ‘fulness of iniquity’ (Ether 2:10).” (Heber J. Grant, J. Reuben Clark, David O. McKay, Messages of the First Presidency, 6:99 as taken from Latter-day Commentary on the Book of Mormon compiled by K. Douglas Bassett, p. 507-8)

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

This seems apropos --

Pres. Harold B. Lee speaking of Pres. J. Reuben Clark: "We heard him reply in to a question as to why he had put his life savings into his presently owned Grantsville ranch: "This is all I have to leave my family when I die... I have told them that when the first atomic bomb is dropped here in America, that they are to go out there on the ranch and stay until it is over."
This last seemed not only to be wise counsel, but also a prophecy." Harold B. Lee, Improvement Era, Sept. 1961, p. 632-633.


I have been asked a lot lately -- what kind of Ham Radio talkies did you get?

Our son has looked into this a lot. We were looking for 2-meter band 2-way radios, since 2-meter is the Church standard. Also, we have many now in the family who are interested, so we sought a lower price. finally, something that would work on rechargeable AA batteries, in case of grid-out conditions, one can charge via solar power.

We came up with the attached ICOM 2-m ham radio, and Universal radio had an excellent price -- just under $100 for the "sport" model. We got some of these... and AA batteries!

For details, go to the link http://www.universal-radio.com/catalog/ht/4380.html.

PS -- Lezlee and I spoke to Sarah Monet a few days ago, Wednesday. She is doing quite well, great to see our friend again. She is planning a talk in Orem Sr. Center in the next six weeks. When I asked her what she thought of the possibility of an EMP knocking out the power grid (and cars, etc) - she said that she saw a bright flash in a vivid dream, after which there was no power. She thought this could be from an EMP blast event...

(With love to all, Dr Steven Jones)

[Rinconcaptain of 100]

.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Doc Jones,

Really good analysis here. I agree with most of what you are saying. In regards to moving out of the wasatch front area to avoid the earthquakes etc. I am not sure I concur with this. I have been listening to "Anarchy in America" by Duane Crowther (whom you probably know from BYU). He quotes many latter day prophecies that state that when the anarchy begins in America, that those who wont kill thier brethren will flee to the intermountain west for safety. Brigham Young stated that Utah was designed by the Lord as a place of safety for the saints when the tribulation starts. Judging from the John Taylor vision of the last days, it sounds like a plague will hit Utah and that will be the trial "that begins at his house". I think Utah will be a staging area for the saints initially, then as the wicked are swept off, those qualified will begin the exodus back to Missouri. There will be some destruction here, but it will be limited IMO.

President Hinckley paid special attention to achieving the highest possible earthquake ratings on the Conference Center. When he announced that in Conference I felt a strong feeling that he knew the building would be tested to it's limit.

However, to me that is not a reason to leave the Wasatch Front. An earthquake is the least of our worries. What I think about is the hundreds of thousands of people living in high rise apartments with nothing but debt. They live hand to mouth, texting on their cell phones and maxing their credit cards. All those people will need help very early. That is a good reason to get out of the area, it will be chaos supreme.

...with no more than a day or two worth of food in the cupboards at best.

[randontcaptain of 10]

If there were to be an EMP attack, that would certainly silence the communication satellites and most of the other communication. Could that account for the 1/2 hour of silence? Or maybe there will be a meteorite storm that could knock out our satellites. Or perhaps a big solar flare....there are just so many possibilities.

I don 't think that our prophets are going to be out of communication with the Lord for 20 years and leave the church "rudderless". I can't imagine a time when a prophet would be needed more.

Maybe the silence is in regards to what the prophets will be allowed to tell us. It seems that since Benson, who really laid everything out for us, the prophets have been "silent" in a way. At least significantly less vocal. We've been warned already. My sister inlaw pointed something out something that I thought was kinda cool. In the last days of the Jaredites(Book of Ether) the prophets quit warning the people and focused on repentance and personal worthiness. I'm paraphrasing and I hope I'm not butchering this but this maybe significant.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

You might want to check that reference in the Book of Ether... My recollection is that Ether gave a final warning shortly before the great destruction, which was rejected by the people (to their ruin). Ehter 13:

20And in the second year the word of the Lord came to Ether, that he should go and prophesy unto Coriantumr that, if he would repent, and all his household, the Lord would give unto him his kingdom and spare the people—

21Otherwise they should be destroyed, and all his household save it were himself. And he should only live to see the fulfilling of the prophecies which had been spoken concerning another people receiving the land for their inheritance; and Coriantumr should receive a burial by them; and every soul should be destroyed save it were Coriantumr.

22And it came to pass that Coriantumr repented not, neither his household, neither the people; and the wars ceased not; and they sought to kill Ether, but he fled from before them and hid again in the cavity of the rock.

Was it selfish for Ether to hide, away from the danger? certainly not. Nor was it selfish for Lehi to G>O>O>Dodge before TSHTF. (where "s" stand for "stuff")

General Conference is coming up again in two days -- and I'm all ears!

Heber C. Kimball's prophetic statements come to mind.

"After a while the Gentiles will gather by the thousands to this place, and Salt Lake City will be classed among the wicked cities of the world. A spirit of speculation and extravagance will take possession of the Saints, and the results will be financial bondage.
Persecution comes next and all true Latter-day Saints will be tested to the limit. Many will apostatize and others will be still not knowing what to do. Darkness will cover the earth and gross darkness the minds of the people. The judgments of God will be poured out on the wicked to the extent that our Elders from far and near will be called home, or in other words the gospel will be taken from the Gentiles and later on carried to the Jews."

And this from the LORD in D&C 112:

23Verily, verily, I say unto you, darkness covereth the earth, and gross darkness the minds of the people, and all flesh has become corrupt before my face. 24Behold, vengeance cometh speedily upon the inhabitants of the earth, a day of wrath, a day of burning, a day of desolation, of weeping, of mourning, and of lamentation; and as a whirlwind it shall come upon all the face of the earth, saith the Lord.
25And upon my house shall it begin, and from my house shall it go forth, saith the Lord;
26First among those among you, saith the Lord, who have professed to know my name and have not known me, and have blasphemed against me in the midst of my house, saith the Lord.

Lezlee and I have enjoyed our house guests earlier this week, Kim and Brian (Descendants of the Prophet Joseph). We talked about this very topic -- quoting from D&C 112 and Heber C. Kimball's prophecy.... Seems many are pondering these prophecies...

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Wow! A finding of metal (lead) plates bound together with rings, from early Christians -- found in Jordan, taken to Israel...
Sounds like:

A) The Book of Mormon plates -- even has a "sealed portion".

B) The metal plates found in a cave near Manti, so=called "Brewer Cave". Although this is quite controversial, a few years ago I did a Carbon-14 dating study of the juniper bark used to encase these plates in their box, and found the bark to be approx. 2,161 years old. My paper was published March 2011 (last month). See the table of contents: http://ancientamerican.com/backissues.html#cover90

Volume 15, Issue 90:
Cherokee Paint Clan: Mask of Life and Death
* The Lennape Epic - Myron Paine, Ph.D.
* The Cherokee Medicine Wheel - Ray (Seeker) Pennington
* Newport Tower: Another Viewpoint - William Smith
* Israelite East M'nashe Traced to the Four Corners - Maggid ben Yoseif
* Cherokee Clans: An Informal History - Donald Panther Yates, Ph.D.
* The Big Canadian Knife (Sword?) - Don Spohn, Ph.D.
* Radio Carbon Dating for Brewers Cave
* First Americans Reached Europe Five Centuries Before Columbus Discovered the New World

Yahoo article:

Wed Mar 30, 11:36 am ET
Could lead codices prove ‘the major discovery of Christian history’?

By Chris Lehmann chris Lehmann – Wed Mar 30, 11:36 am ET

British archaeologists are seeking to authenticate what could be a landmark discovery in the documentation of early Christianity: a trove of 70 lead codices that appear to date from the 1st century CE, which may include key clues to the last days of Jesus' life. As UK Daily Mail reporter Fiona Macrae writes, some researchers are suggesting this could be the most significant find in Christian archeology since the Dead Sea scrolls in 1947.

The codices turned up five years ago in a remote cave in eastern Jordan—a region where early Christian believers may have fled after the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem in 70 CE. The codices are made up of wirebound individual pages, each roughly the size of a credit card. They contain a number of images and textual allusions to the Messiah, as well as some possible references to the crucifixion and resurrection. Some of the codices were sealed, prompting yet more breathless speculation that they could include the sealed book, shown only to the Messiah, mentioned in the Book of Revelation. One of the few sentences translated thus far from the texts, according to the BBC, reads, "I shall walk uprightly"--a phrase that also appears in Revelation. "While it could be simply a sentiment common in Judaism," BBC writer Robert Pigott notes, "it could here be designed to refer to the resurrection."

But the field of biblical archaeology is also prey to plenty of hoaxes and enterprising fraudsters, so investigators are proceeding with due empirical caution. Initial metallurgical research indicates that the codices are about 2,000 years old--based on the manner of corrosion they have undergone, which, as Macrae writes, "experts believe would be impossible to achieve artificially."

Beyond the initial dating tests, however, little is confirmed about the codices or what they contain. And the saga of their discovery has already touched off a battle over ownership rights between Israel and Jordan. As the BBC's Pigott recounts, the cache surfaced when a Jordanian Bedouin saw a menorah—the Jewish religious candleabra—exposed in the wake of a flash flood. But the codices somehow passed into the ownership of an Israeli Bedouin named Hassam Saeda, who claims that they have been in his family's possession for the past 100 years. The Jordanian government has pledged to "exert all efforts at every level" to get the potentially priceless relics returned, Pigott reports.

Meanwhile, biblical scholars who have examined the codices point to significant textual evidence suggesting their early Christian origin. Philip Davies, emeritus professor of Old Testament Studies at Sheffield University, told Pigott he was "dumbstruck" at the sight of plates representing a picture map of ancient Jerusalem. "There is a cross in the foreground, and behind it is what has to be the tomb [of Jesus], a small building with an opening, and behind that the walls of the city," Davies explained. "There are walls depicted on other pages of these books, too, and they almost certainly refer to Jerusalem."

David Elkington, an ancient religion scholar who heads the British research team investigating the find, has likewise pronounced this nothing less than "the major discovery of Christian history." Elkington told the Daily Mail that "it is a breathtaking thought that we have held these objects that might have been held by the early saints of the Church."

Still, other students of early Christian history are urging caution, citing precedents such as the debunked discovery of an ossuary said to contain the bones of Jesus. New Testament scholar Larry Hurtado observes that since these codices are miniature, they were likely intended for private, rather than liturgical, use. This would likely place their date of origin closer to the 3rd century CE. But only further research and full translation of the codices can fully confirm the nature of the find. The larger lesson here is likely that of Ecclesiastes 3:1—be patient, since "to everything there is a season."

(David Elkington/Rex Features/Rex USA)

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Here is the text from my paper, now published in the Ancient American journal in March 2011:

Radiocarbon Dating of Bark Sample from Brewer's Cave, Manti Area
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics Brigham Young University
January 20, 2005

A number of stone boxes, covered with bark and pitch, were discovered by John Brewer in the Manti, Utah, area nearly fifty years ago. While the authenticity of these discoveries has been the subject of intense controversy, radiocarbon dating of the bark has not previously been performed by archaeologists or other scientists. This oversight is striking, since an accurate radiocarbon age would do much to ascertain whether the artifacts are ancient, or of modem manufacture (as claimed by some archaeologists).

Here we report the results of the first radiocarbon dating of a bark sample from one of these stone boxes. The sample was provided by Millie Cheesman from material provided originally by John Brewer. The bark was brought by J. Golden Barton to Professor Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University on March 3, 2004, under the auspices of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation. The sample was examined then taken to Prof. Stephen Nelson and David Tingey, both of the BYU Department of Geology, for dating using the BYU radiocarbon-dating system.
The bark sample was cleaned with acetone then propanol, then subjected to acid and base treatments. These steps were necessary to remove humic acids and residues from bacteria and other organisms, which could introduce fresh carbon 14 and thus produce a more recent (incorrect) age. After these standard procedures, essentially just cellulose from the bark remained.
The cellulose material was subjected to standard chemical processes, finally to produce liquid C6H6 (benzene) which was placed in a vial with a scintillant. This carbon-bearing vial was then placed into two separate scintillation counter instruments to record the carbon-14 radioactivity of the carbon sample.

Both instruments gave essentially the same radiocarbon age for the Brewercave bark sample. The Guardian instrument provided an age of approximately 2161 years BP (Before Present). Since this age seemed incredibly old to the scientists doing the age analysis, the Brewer-bark sample was placed into the Quantalus 1440 ultra-low background detector. This instrument includes 1500 pounds of lead to block cosmic ray interference. The sample was then analyzed ten times, at different times of the day to avoid any possibility of error.

The final result confirmed the age determined by the Guardian instrument:
Percent modern carbon: (75.9 +/- 0.6) Radiocarbon age: (2161 +/- 70) BP Calibrated age (2 sigma): 5 BC to 390 BC

With a radiocarbon age of 5 BC to 390 BC, the Brewer bark sample is thus scientifically demonstrated to be very old. The Brewer findings (if further verified) could force archaeologists to re-write currently accepted history of the area. It is extremely unlikely that the boxes in question could have been covered with bark this old by an alleged hoaxer, for that would require the individual to find intact bark that was already two thousand years old. Rather, the bark was evidently used anciently and preserved by pitch used to seal it and by its being kept in a rather dry-cave environment.
The bark used to cover the stone box in question is indeed ancient. It is the opinion of this researcher that the findings and claims of John Brewer should be re-examined in light of this new, positive evidence for the antiquity of these boxes. It would be highly desirable to re-open the cave where the box was found, with certified archaeologists present (such as Jon Baxter of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation). Finding similar artifacts in their original undisturbed context would allow final verification of John Brewer's claims.

A photo below of plates found in the Brewer cave can be compared with the metal plates found in Jordan.
Exciting IMO.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

One last set, then I've gotta run today --

From the Jordanian cave (top) and from Brewer Cave (bottom photo)...
Guess which finding is getting more press attention??

[MahonriMaster]

Not that I don't think that this is interesting, I am just not sure what the HUGE deal is about the plates.

Metal plates have been found before, metal plates found in a stone box at that.

I find it so stupid when people say there is no evidence for the BoM

Plates found in stone boxes
feathered serpent
paintings of dark and white skinned people working together
carvings and paintings of Lehi's tree of life vision
the inhabitants worshiping conqeustidors as the returning bearded white god who promised to return one day.
etc, etc, etc

[larsenbcaptain of 1,000]

Here is the text from my paper, now published in the Ancient American journal in March 2011:

Radiocarbon Dating of Bark Sample from Brewer's Cave, Manti Area
Steven E. Jones
Professor of Physics Brigham Young University
January 20, 2005

A number of stone boxes, covered with bark and pitch, were discovered by John Brewer in the Manti, Utah, area nearly fifty years ago. While the authenticity of these discoveries has been the subject of intense controversy, radiocarbon dating of the bark has not previously been performed by archaeologists or other scientists. This oversight is striking, since an accurate radiocarbon age would do much to ascertain whether the artifacts are ancient, or of modem manufacture (as claimed by some archaeologists).

Here we report the results of the first radiocarbon dating of a bark sample from one of these stone boxes. The sample was provided by Millie Cheesman from material provided originally by John Brewer. The bark was brought by J. Golden Barton to Professor Steven E. Jones of Brigham Young University on March 3, 2004, under the auspices of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation. The sample was examined then taken to Prof. Stephen Nelson and David Tingey, both of the BYU Department of Geology, for dating using the BYU radiocarbon-dating system.
The bark sample was cleaned with acetone then propanol, then subjected to acid and base treatments. These steps were necessary to remove humic acids and residues from bacteria and other organisms, which could introduce fresh carbon 14 and thus produce a more recent (incorrect) age. After these standard procedures, essentially just cellulose from the bark remained.
The cellulose material was subjected to standard chemical processes, finally to produce liquid C6H6 (benzene) which was placed in a vial with a scintillant. This carbon-bearing vial was then placed into two separate scintillation counter instruments to record the carbon-14 radioactivity of the carbon sample.

Both instruments gave essentially the same radiocarbon age for the Brewercave bark sample. The Guardian instrument provided an age of approximately 2161 years BP (Before Present). Since this age seemed incredibly old to the scientists doing the age analysis, the Brewer-bark sample was placed into the Quantalus 1440 ultra-low background detector. This instrument includes 1500 pounds of lead to block cosmic ray interference. The sample was then analyzed ten times, at different times of the day to avoid any possibility of error.

The final result confirmed the age determined by the Guardian instrument:
Percent modern carbon: (75.9 +/- 0.6) Radiocarbon age: (2161 +/- 70) BP Calibrated age (2 sigma): 5 BC to 390 BC

With a radiocarbon age of 5 BC to 390 BC, the Brewer bark sample is thus scientifically demonstrated to be very old. The Brewer findings (if further verified) could force archaeologists to re-write currently accepted history of the area. It is extremely unlikely that the boxes in question could have been covered with bark this old by an alleged hoaxer, for that would require the individual to find intact bark that was already two thousand years old. Rather, the bark was evidently used anciently and preserved by pitch used to seal it and by its being kept in a rather dry-cave environment.
The bark used to cover the stone box in question is indeed ancient. It is the opinion of this researcher that the findings and claims of John Brewer should be re-examined in light of this new, positive evidence for the antiquity of these boxes. It would be highly desirable to re-open the cave where the box was found, with certified archaeologists present (such as Jon Baxter of the Ancient Historical Research Foundation). Finding similar artifacts in their original undisturbed context would allow final verification of John Brewer's claims.

A photo below of plates found in the Brewer cave can be compared with the metal plates found in Jordan.
Exciting IMO.

Wow! That's certainly interesting. Thank for posting and calling our attention to it.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

One last set, then I've gotta run today --

From the Jordanian cave (top) and from Brewer Cave (bottom photo)...
Guess which finding is getting more press attention??

The discouraging thing is when someone reports to have found such things, no one seems to be able to locate the place where they were found. It always seems to be the million dollar question. So is the cave real? That is my question. If it is, how could it remain a secret for so many years?

[larsenbcaptain of 1,000]

. . . . . . . . . . Lezlee and I have enjoyed our house guests earlier this week, Kim and Brian (Descendants of the Prophet Joseph). We talked about this very topic -- quoting from D&C 112 and Heber C. Kimball's prophecy.... Seems many are pondering these prophecies...

Dr. Jones, how did you arrange that?? They just spoke at a fireside in our Ward last Sunday evening. Very moving experience! I had to keep stifling my moist eyes, but noticed after the closing prayer, a lot of red and moist-eyed men rising from the benches.


It was especially moving to see the oldest daughter of Eldred G. Smith go up to the stand with one of her sons and talk to and embrace them. This daughter is a keeper of a lot of artifacts of the Smith family, including the clothing they were martyered in. LIke long separated and alienated family members finally making up and reconciling.

One of the things Kimberly mentioned, was that now is the time we need to become unified in the Church, to prepare for what's coming. And of course the reconciliation of Joseph's descendents seems like a powerful symbol of this unification: joining up again for some of the final battles.

Dr. Jones, I would be very interested in learning if Kim is on board with you regarding 9/11. Did you get a chance to get into this? A PM would be nice, if you don't want to go public; as well as to make some attempt to answer other questions I recently put to you, if you don't mind.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

I have some history with the Brewer plates, I knew Dr. Paul Cheesman, then the Dean of Religious Education at BYU, I visited with him in his office many times. It was Paul who showed me one of the Brewer boxes. The box I saw was made out of white stone, stone very similar to the stone at White Mountain in Southern Utah. It was indeed surrounded by juniper bark, but the “bark” didn’t look all that old. Paul and I discussed the box and it’s contents several times. I took a lot of pictures of both the box and the copper plates inside, as I remember the plates inside were held together by a single copper ring. The copper ring was hollowed out on one end, the other end sharpened so the ends fit together. The plates looked very old.

Concerning White Mountain, it has been rumored for many years that an Aztec treasure is buried somewhere inside of White Mountain.

I had questions about the box, things that seemed odd to me; Number one; the holes in the corners of the box and the lid seemed to me to be to perfect. They looked like they were drilled with a modern drill. The holes held four pegs that connected the lid to the box. That and the bark not looking as old as Dr. Jones supervised tests showed, made me suspicious., but I was no expert, just an inquiring mind. And the box supposedly was in a cave located in a very dry desert. So, if that were indeed the case, I can understand why the bark didn’t look like it was two thousand years old.

The self declared campus chief archeologist ( I say that because Paul didn’t seem to like Ray) was Dr. Ray Matheny. Ray declared the box and the plates as being phony. Paul told me, Ray said he found steel particles in the “drilled” holes. The stone the box was made from didn’t seem to me to be so hard that it would have effected a steel drill bit. At the time, I suspected Ray made that declaration in an attempt to make Brewer show “him” the caves. And, there were three or four caves that Brewer supposedly found, following a map he said he found in the first cave he discovered. It seems that “if” a credentialed archeologist didn’t find the caves, then everything taken from them was automatically declared phony.

However, The very first time I saw all the Brewer plates was at a invitation only fireside in the home of my very good friend Don Maynard in Provo. Brewer displayed about 50 to 75 plates made of copper, lead, and about five or six gold plates. None of the plates were large, most only about two inches square or smaller.

Don befriended Brewer hoping that Brewer would melt down and show the positions of the supposed caves to properly credentialed archeologists. As far as I remember, Don didn’t know Ray. However, there was a law on the books like the antiquities law of today, that made it illegal to remove items of antiquity from their original position, like pot hunters do. Brewer had removed the plates, boxes and other items, and was afraid the BLM would come down on him hard. In fact, as the word that he might have something like the plates or pots got around, the BLM started sniffing around his house, and Don told me that Brewer was afraid to go to the caves because the BLM people might be following him. Brewer didn’t want to go to jail, refused to display the plates again, and hid them.

Paul told me the BLM didn’t know he had one of the boxes and some of the plates in his office. He also mentioned that the brethren in SLC were very interested in the plates, but when Ray declared them phony, they lost interest.

Brewer took some pictures of supposed mummies he found in one of the caves. I didn’t get to see the pictures, but Paul wasn’t convinced the pictures were of mummies, he told me flat out he didn’t know what they were, but they didn’t look like any mummies he had ever seen. There were supposedly two mummies, one very long the other shorter, and one had red hair.

I talked to Hugh Nibley about the plates, he didn’t seem to be very interested in them. He told me he had heard that Brewer’s wife told somebody he knew that Brewer had made the plates himself. She also was afraid of the BLM arresting Brewer and possibly her.

I remember that all the plates I saw and photographed, except the gold plates, seemed to me to be very old. Gold does not age. But Ray insisted that copper and lead can be made to look very old. And the inscriptions were gibberish to him, a trained archeologist. When I suggested that the plates were probable not history but might have been contracts or records of transactions of some kind, he simply muttered--- “maybe!” which statement made me wonder-----

Paul Cheesman died, Don Maynard was killed in a car wreck, Hugh died, and I have no idea where Ray Matheny is. Until now, I had heard nothing more about the Brewer plates. I took about a hundred photos of the plates, however, all but four of the photos were destroyed in a flood, when a high pressure sprinkler irrigation line broke in front of our cabin and flooded our basement. The four surviving photos are in a blue case that contains my military records, and I haven’t seen that case in twenty years. Its somewhere in the attic with most of the stuff JoAnn purchased at yard sales, all neatly stacked. I have refused to see what’s in all those boxes, don’t have any desire to make a mess I’ll have to clean up. I just remember Jo telling me that’s where my military records were. Jo would say, "someday we’ll need all this stuff," I hope so, a lot of money went into that neatly stacked pile. I certainly hope somebody gets to use it all, maybe my great grandkids???

My kids tell me I should have a yard sale------Somehow, I get the feeling I would be betraying Jo's inspiration--- And she was an inspired woman-- she married me!!

Bob

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

@larsen -- Kim and Brian are here again tonight, staying with us. I read your post to Kim -- and she so much appreciated the feedback!!

I asked her about 9/11 -- she responded immediately that we're on the same page (with me). She wondered if you were, and I said you were.

@Bob -- thanks so much for your memoirs about this! s It's late, so I'll read and respond more tomorrow... Very helpful, thanks.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

I have some history with the Brewer plates, I knew Dr. Paul Cheesman, then the Dean of Religious Education at BYU, I visited with him in his office many times. It was Paul who showed me one of the Brewer boxes. The box I saw was made out of white stone, stone very similar to the stone at White Mountain in Southern Utah. It was indeed surrounded by juniper bark, but the “bark” didn’t look all that old. Paul and I discussed the box and it’s contents several times. I took a lot of pictures of both the box and the copper plates inside, as I remember the plates inside were held together by a single copper ring. The copper ring was hollowed out on one end, the other end sharpened so the ends fit together. The plates looked very old. Concerning White Mountain, it has been rumored for many years that an Aztec treasure is buried somewhere inside of White Mountain.

I had questions about the box, things that seemed odd to me; Number one; the holes in the corners of the box and the lid seemed to me to be to perfect. They looked like they were drilled with a modern drill. The holes held four pegs that connected the lid to the box. That and the bark not looking as old as Dr. Jones supervised tests showed, made me suspicious., but I was no expert, just an inquiring mind. And the box supposedly was in a cave located in a very dry desert. So, if that were indeed the case, I can understand why the bark didn’t look like it was two thousand years old.

The self declared campus chief archeologist ( I say that because Paul didn’t seem to like Ray) was Dr. Ray Matheny. Ray declared the box and the plates as being phony. Paul told me, Ray said he found steel particles in the “drilled” holes. The stone the box was made from didn’t seem to me to be so hard that it would have effected a steel drill bit. At the time, I suspected Ray made that declaration in an attempt to make Brewer show “him” the caves. And, there were three or four caves that Brewer supposedly found, following a map he said he found in the first cave he discovered. It seems that “if” a credentialed archeologist didn’t find the caves, then everything taken from them was automatically declared phony.

However, The very first time I saw all the Brewer plates was at a invitation only fireside in the home of my very good friend Don Maynard in Provo. Brewer displayed about 50 to 75 plates made of copper, lead, and about five or six gold plates. None of the plates were large, most only about two inches square or smaller.

Don befriended Brewer hoping that Brewer would melt down and show the positions of the supposed caves to properly credentialed archeologists. As far as I remember, Don didn’t know Ray. However, there was a law on the books like the antiquities law of today, that made it illegal to remove items of antiquity from their original position, like pot hunters do. Brewer had removed the plates, boxes and other items, and was afraid the BLM would come down on him hard. In fact, as the word that he might have something like the plates or pots got around, the BLM started sniffing around his house, and Don told me that Brewer was afraid to go to the caves because the BLM people might be following him. Brewer didn’t want to go to jail, refused to display the plates again, and hid them.

Paul told me the BLM didn’t know he had one of the boxes and some of the plates in his office. He also mentioned that the brethren in SLC were very interested in the plates, but when Ray declared them phony, they lost interest.

Brewer took some pictures of supposed mummies he found in one of the caves. I didn’t get to see the pictures, but Paul wasn’t convinced the pictures were of mummies, he told me flat out he didn’t know what they were, but they didn’t look like any mummies he had ever seen. There were supposedly two mummies, one very long the other shorter, and one had red hair.

I talked to Hugh Nibley about the plates, he didn’t seem to be very interested in them. He told me he had heard that Brewer’s wife told somebody he knew that Brewer had made the plates himself. She also was afraid of the BLM arresting Brewer and possibly her.

I remember that all the plates I saw and photographed, except the gold plates, seemed to me to be very old. Gold does not age. But Ray insisted that copper and lead can be made to look very old. And the inscriptions were gibberish to him, a trained archeologist. When I suggested that the plates were probable not history but might have been contracts or records of transactions of some kind, he simply muttered--- “maybe!” which statement made me wonder-----

Paul Cheesman died, Don Maynard was killed in a car wreck, Hugh died, and I have no idea where Ray Matheny is. Until now, I had heard nothing more about the Brewer plates. I took about a hundred photos of the plates, however, all but four of the photos were destroyed in a flood, when a high pressure sprinkler irrigation line broke in front of our cabin and flooded our basement. The four surviving photos are in a blue case that contains my military records, and I haven’t seen that case in twenty years. Its somewhere in the attic with most of the stuff JoAnn purchased at yard sales, all neatly stacked. I have refused to see what’s in all those boxes, don’t have any desire to make a mess I’ll have to clean up. I just remember Jo telling me that’s where my military records were. Jo would say, "someday we’ll need all this stuff," I hope so, a lot of money went into that neatly stacked pile. I certainly hope somebody gets to use it all, maybe my great grandkids???

My kids tell me I should have a yard sale------Somehow, I get the feeling I would be betraying Jo's inspiration--- And she was an inspired woman-- she married me!!

Bob

Interesting story. Thanks for sharing it.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

http://books.google.com/books?id=36T5QW ... ve&f=false
More info on Brewer's cave

Another one
http://books.google.com/books?id=t2U-gA ... &q&f=false

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Bob:

However, there was a law on the books like the antiquities law of today, that made it illegal to remove items of antiquity from their original position, like pot hunters do. Brewer had removed the plates, boxes and other items, and was afraid the BLM would come down on him hard. In fact, as the word that he might have something like the plates or pots got around, the BLM started sniffing around his house, and Don told me that Brewer was afraid to go to the caves because the BLM people might be following him. Brewer didn’t want to go to jail, refused to display the plates again, and hid them.

Paul told me the BLM didn’t know he had one of the boxes and some of the plates in his office. He also mentioned that the brethren in SLC were very interested in the plates, but when Ray declared them phony, they lost interest.

Your point about the BLM is well-taken, Bob -- something that I had not heard before, but it makes sense in explaining why John Brewer suddenly clammed up -- this along with the tongue-lashing he received from Matheny in the SLC newspapers for being a fraud. Have you seen that article? Scathing. Basically says, they (he and a prof from U of Utah) can't read the writing so it is obviously made up -- fraudulent.

I hate to see bullying tactics used, fear and anger -mongering as was done against John Brewer.
Especially when the inner bark turned out -- based on thorough scientific testing -- to be about two millenia old! corroborating his claims.

I have some things I could add about Matheny also -- he came to my office in the Eyring Science Center and tried to dissuade my research... but I think I'll leave it at that, for now.

What is so sad in all this is that Brewer did clam up -- and we don't know where the cave(s) are located. John Brewer died a few years ago.

PS -- thanks for the links, NGL - sheds further light on the Brewer history.

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Steve----

Lol, it was Ray Matheny that attempted to stop your research on the age of ancient horse bones!

About ten or 15 years ago I met Ray's daughter, had a long discussion with her about her dad. She indicated he didn't have a very good experience at BYU, he was always upset that the school insisted he and his student workers take Sundays off, he wanted to continue his work on his digs, and he often did so, alone! Except when he took his children along, they would work with him. She claimed she was Catholic, and to prove it she lit up a smoke!

The only time I met Ray, he acted very aloof with me, as in "why is this "thing" bothering me? But I did manage to remain humble and got a few questions in, few answers, why "he" was the authority, what right did I have even speaking to him, I ask just few questions. 20 years before that meeting I might have punched him in the nose. Ah, what age does to good people-----

I found there are real kingdom builders at BYU, and I'm not speaking of the Kingdom of God! Always somebody who wanted to build his/her legacy at BYU, leave a building in his/her name. I thanked God for the many Paul Chessman's at BYU.

And while I didn't know Steve, I would liked to have!

Bob

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Thanks so much, Bob. I'd like to meet you some day and thank you in person for all your wisdom and memoirs.

I have come across an unpublished book -- available though free through epubbud -- by W. Cleon Skousen. I've just started, intriguing so far!
excerpt:

Stage One of the Great Gathering

As the self destruction of the wicked begins to become intolerable for decent, God-fearing people, they will voluntarily move toward the more stable parts of the country in the mountain west.

No doubt this will occur on a voluntary basis as people become anxious about the safety of themselves and their families. This anxiety has already begun to manifest itself as crime waves, riots, violence in the public schools, and moral depravity gain a powerful grip on the major population centers of the country.

As this first wave of "gatherers" voluntarily move into the mountain west they are being absorbed among the cities and communities that are already established. However, even with this rather light migration to the cities and towns of the mountain west there is a sharp increase in crime and a feeling of community instability as some of these new arrivals bring in a tide of suspicious anger and a visible eagerness to exploit the unsuspecting people of these more quiet regions.



The Second Stage of the Great Gathering Will Not Be Voluntary

Although the first phase of the gathering is toward the mountain west, the great plague that eventually produces the second gathering actually begins in the mountain west.2 [D&C 112] Naturally, as the scourge travels east and crime and civil strife rampage through the major population centers of the East, it will not be thought safe to flee to the west.

It will probably not be until the end of the desolating depopulation of the wicked in the east that word will reach the survivors that the scourge has been overcome out west. Then many thousands -- as seen by President John Taylor -- will struggle on foot to reach the mountains where Isaiah says there will be bread and water that is sure.3

You may know that many good folks are already gathering to the mountain west, many of other faiths.
For example, see http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/baldwin/110401 -- very interesting also! right in line with what Dr. Skousen wrote about several years ago.

Google

W. Cleon Skousen, A Glimpse into the Future,

Then go to http://www.epubbud.com/book.php?g=3JGN29CS

Hope that helps; I had to download their book-reader software, it was quick.

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

I thanked God for the many Paul Chessman's at BYU.

I see he has played an intirgal part in the caves and supposedly has some of the relics and attended some of the meetings. I am curious as to his character. Can anyone speak for him? I am also curious Doc. The pics of the plates, were you able to view them and tie them into the material you wrote about the material that was analyzed? It appeared from the paper you posted that he approached you on the subject to assist him. I am just missing the link. Why would he not just get them analyzed himself? I am sure it is just my ignorance of how such things work, but if I do not ask, I will not know.

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Actually, NGL, it was my idea to do the radiocarbon DATING on the bark, based on photos I had seen of the Brewer cave materials. Except for the bark -- sample provided graciously by Millie Cheesman (Paul's widow) -- I have not directly SEEN anything else from the Brewer cave (including the plates).

Actually, I would like to do an analysis on the plates also, chemical composition -- I've got too much for one guy to do I think! at this time. Need to be prayerful in use of time. Also, I don't recall whether Millie has any of the Brewer-cave plates in her possession...

[DrJonescaptain of 1,000]

Idea -- Bob, if you feel comfortable contacting Millie, could you ask if she would allow me to test the plates for composition using a Scanning Electron Microscope system at BYU?? I'm going out of town, back about 18 April, could begin work that week. Totally NON-destructive and safe!!

[NoGreaterLovecaptain of 1,000]

Idea -- Bob, if you feel comfortable contacting Millie, could you ask if she would allow me to test the plates for composition using a Scanning Electron Microscope system at BYU?? I'm going out of town, back about 18 April, could begin work that week. Totally NON-destructive and safe!!

I think this would be great service to that family and to Brewer's name. Once and for all the truth of his findings could be authenticated. This one act of service could change the history books concerning the American continent and its ancient inhabitants. I am surprised this has never been done before. Maybe it just needed the right timing. Maybe it is time. I for one appreciate the offer you have made in this regard.

[7cylon7captain of 1,000]

Now compare Rev chapter 9:

9:3 Then out of the smoke came forth locusts on the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 9:4 They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don’t have God’s seal on their foreheads. 9:5 They were given power not to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion, when it strikes a person. [shots gone bad?] 9:6 In those days people will seek death, and will in no way find it. They will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 9:7 The shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for war. On their heads were something like golden crowns, and their faces were like people’s faces. 9:8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like those of lions. 9:9 They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war. [helicopters?] 9:10 They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.
9:11 They have over them as king the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is “Abaddon,” but in Greek, he has the name “Apollyon.” 9:12 The first woe is past. Behold, there are still two woes coming after this.

[/quote]

You left out the verses 1-2 which make your comparison of this Apollo character who reigns for 5 months here which hurts no green things seem like it has not been fulfilled. I am prepared to say this scripture has been fulfilled. Lets look at verse 1 and 2 and see how that changes our perspective of these following verses.

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abottomless bpit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This is talking about the First Wo. If you read Revelations you find that there are predicted 3 great Wo s. The first half of Chapter 9 is devoted to telling us what this first of three Wo s is. Let me point out the MEAT of this.

1. Smoke out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace
2. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit
3. Should not hurt the grasss of the earth neither any green thing nor any tree
4. Should not kill
5. Tormented five months


This Wo described is very specific. It is describing a WAR that will proceed the second and third WO. What could the WO or war be?
Any one can answer this very easily. This is talking about the first Gulf War of the USA vs Iraq. This is very visible sign that John described very well. In fact I find it to be the most detailed in description and the easiest of all the WO s to understand.

1.The smoke of the great furnace is the destruction of the Oil wells in Kuwait. Yes Oil fire have gone on in area all over the world and in WWII many oil refiners were attacked and caused great smoke as well. But non has really had the amount of smoke that was produced during the Iraq war. The smoke circled the globe. Go google the satellite [img=640,640]http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/files/2010/10/Kuwait-Oil-Fires-and-US-Air-Force.jpg[/img] and [img=640,640]http://gats-inc.com/images/Kuwait%20oil%20fires.jpg[/img].

2. Modern Army is described

3. Five month power.... Iraq occupied Kuwait for 5 months

4. Nothing green is hurt. Marines were ordered not to attack the Mosques and not to touch any GREEN oasis. They were very strict on the orders not to destroy any green parts of the city or country. All Green oasis were called off limits so you see John put in that no green thing was hurt.

5. No loss of life on the US side. Normally both sides would take heavy loses but in this war (the only war of its kind in modern history) was it so one sided that John put in the scriptures that they should not kill them.

This is clearly the first Gulf War. Taken all together this is what this means. I don't care if the 7th seal is open or not. This WO has already happened.

We are now awaiting the 6th WO!!!!! What WO is that? Read it for yourself Rev 9:13-21 and or Rev 16:12-14

A 13 month war where the Great whore dressed in red and Purple is destroyed in one hour. The Nuclear attack on America by the beast (Russia and China).

After this war some time passes 3 1/2 years or so and then the Final battle of Armageddon finishes in a 7th and Final WO! A great earthquake. Rev 16:17-21 Where the Lord saves the JEWS This is is second second coming as AOA has already occurred... Right before the 6th W0 IMO.

So this notion that Obama is Apollo and reigns 5 months from Rev 9 is inaccurate.

Loved everything else though.

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

Well your interpretation seems to fit...the big question is: is it correct? Can this be fulfilled in multiple ways? And if your interpretation is wrong, is your faith still strong, or shaken if not destroyed?

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

Idea -- Bob, if you feel comfortable contacting Millie, could you ask if she would allow me to test the plates for composition using a Scanning Electron Microscope system at BYU?? I'm going out of town, back about 18 April, could begin work that week. Totally NON-destructive and safe!!

Unfortunatly, I've never met Millie. Every contact I had with Paul was in his office, or somewhere on campus like the Cougar Eat, a couple of times at campus wide parties. The picture you showed above with the three plates held together with a ring come from the same box I studied in Pauls office, those are the same plates! The other Brewer plates I mentioned I viewed were in the home of Don Maynard, Brewer was there at the time. A small thin man, very quiet, spoke very softely. Don had warned Jo and me, no leading questions, but I talked to him for several minutes, remembering Don's admonition.

I'll see if I can look her up. One of her boys, Jay, I think it was, played basketball for BYU.

Bob

[bobhenstracaptain of 1,000]

I thanked God for the many Paul Chessman's at BYU.

I see he has played an integral part in the caves and supposedly has some of the relics and attended some of the meetings. I am curious as to his character. Can anyone speak for him? I am also curious Doc. The pics of the plates, were you able to view them and tie them into the material you wrote about the material that was analyzed? It appeared from the paper you posted that he approached you on the subject to assist him. I am just missing the link. Why would he not just get them analyzed himself? I am sure it is just my ignorance of how such things work, but if I do not ask, I will not know.

About Paul and Millie--

http://classic.cedarfort.com/author/Cheesman.html

Paul told me he didn't believe Ray Matheny did any analysis on the plates, just said he did. I'm not all that sure Matheny had the tools available to make such an analysis. I do remember Paul being very disappointed in the pictures of the mummies Brewer presented to him.

Bob

[pjbrowniecaptain of 1,000]

Now compare Rev chapter 9:

9:3 Then out of the smoke came forth locusts on the earth, and power was given to them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 9:4 They were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree, but only those people who don’t have God’s seal on their foreheads. 9:5 They were given power not to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion, when it strikes a person. [shots gone bad?] 9:6 In those days people will seek death, and will in no way find it. They will desire to die, and death will flee from them. 9:7 The shapes of the locusts were like horses prepared for war. On their heads were something like golden crowns, and their faces were like people’s faces. 9:8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like those of lions. 9:9 They had breastplates, like breastplates of iron. The sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, or of many horses rushing to war. [helicopters?] 9:10 They have tails like those of scorpions, and stings. In their tails they have power to harm men for five months.
9:11 They have over them as king the angel of the abyss. His name in Hebrew is “Abaddon,” but in Greek, he has the name “Apollyon.” 9:12 The first woe is past. Behold, there are still two woes coming after this.

You left out the verses 1-2 which make your comparison of this Apollo character who reigns for 5 months here which hurts no green things seem like it has not been fulfilled. I am prepared to say this scripture has been fulfilled. Lets look at verse 1 and 2 and see how that changes our perspective of these following verses.

1And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the abottomless bpit.

2And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.

This is talking about the First Wo. If you read Revelations you find that there are predicted 3 great Wo s. The first half of Chapter 9 is devoted to telling us what this first of three Wo s is. Let me point out the MEAT of this.

1. Smoke out of the pit as the smoke of a great furnace
2. The sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit
3. Should not hurt the grasss of the earth neither any green thing nor any tree
4. Should not kill
5. Tormented five months


This Wo described is very specific. It is describing a WAR that will proceed the second and third WO. What could the WO or war be?
Any one can answer this very easily. This is talking about the first Gulf War of the USA vs Iraq. This is very visible sign that John described very well. In fact I find it to be the most detailed in description and the easiest of all the WO s to understand.

1.The smoke of the great furnace is the destruction of the Oil wells in Kuwait. Yes Oil fire have gone on in area all over the world and in WWII many oil refiners were attacked and caused great smoke as well. But non has really had the amount of smoke that was produced during the Iraq war. The smoke circled the globe. Go google the satellite [img=640,640]http://pajamasmedia.com/michaeltotten/files/2010/10/Kuwait-Oil-Fires-and-US-Air-Force.jpg[/img] and [img=640,640]http://gats-inc.com/images/Kuwait%20oil%20fires.jpg[/img].

2. Modern Army is described

3. Five month power.... Iraq occupied Kuwait for 5 months

4. Nothing green is hurt. Marines were ordered not to attack the Mosques and not to touch any GREEN oasis. They were very strict on the orders not to destroy any green parts of the city or country. All Green oasis were called off limits so you see John put in that no green thing was hurt.

5. No loss of life on the US side. Normally both sides would take heavy loses but in this war (the only war of its kind in modern history) was it so one sided that John put in the scriptures that they should not kill them.

This is clearly the first Gulf War. Taken all together this is what this means. I don't care if the 7th seal is open or not. This WO has already happened.

We are now awaiting the 6th WO!!!!! What WO is that? Read it for yourself Rev 9:13-21 and or Rev 16:12-14

A 13 month war where the Great whore dressed in red and Purple is destroyed in one hour. The Nuclear attack on America by the beast (Russia and China).

After this war some time passes 3 1/2 years or so and then the Final battle of Armageddon finishes in a 7th and Final WO! A great earthquake. Rev 16:17-21 Where the Lord saves the JEWS This is is second second coming as AOA has already occurred... Right before the 6th W0 IMO.

So this notion that Obama is Apollo and reigns 5 months from Rev 9 is inaccurate.

Loved everything else though.[/quote]

So this is a very orthodox Christian understanding. How does Zion and America fit into all this? Is Zion redeemed right before or after Armageddon? I have yet to hear a very plausible working of this from the point of view of a seventh sealer.

68 And it shall come to pass among the wicked, that every man that will not take his sword against his neighbor must needs flee unto Zion for safety.
69 And there shall be gathered unto it out of every nation under heaven; and it shall be the only people that shall not be at war one with another.
70 And it shall be said among the wicked: Let us not go up to battle against Zion, for the inhabitants of Zion are terrible; wherefore we cannot stand.
71 And it shall come to pass that the righteous shall be gathered out from among all nations, and shall come to Zion, singing with songs of everlasting joy.