Single Most Important Political Issue/Obstacle?

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

I finally managed, during a dialog with a friend, to set down in writing a brief explanation of the main objective of all my political activity.

I have for a few years now felt driven, or constrained as Nephi would put it, to bring to the attention of LDS voters in America our failure to follow instructions given by prophets and apostles to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel". (Quotes from an October 1987 General Conference address by President Benson)

I'm not sure how this fits in with the topic at hand. But from that 11 October 1941 letter from the First presidency to the US Treasury, the statement "There are numbers of the Mormon people who have not fully responded to the teachings of the Church nor to be [sic] tenets of its organizations, and who are, therefore, lukewarm in the support of the Church, its policies, principles, and doctrines."

Also stated in that letter is "But we do reserve to ourselves the right to tell our people what we think is right regarding politics as affecting the fundamentals of our government system, to warn them of the dangers that lie under the present course, and to try to persuade them that their peace, their happiness, and their security do not lie along the path of the present trends of government......"We confess to you that it has not been possible for us to unify our own people even upon the necessity of such a turning about, and therefore we cannot, unfortunately, and we say it regretfully, make any practical suggestion to you as to how the nation can be turned about. But the President of the United States could do it in good part if he were willing to exert his effort along that line, but this he appears not to be willing to do."

I cannot prove it, of course, but I cannot help but think that if the American LDS voters had in unison, even as late as 1987, heeded the above mentioned instructions to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel", the Lord would have interveened to help in turning our nation about.

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

It's easy to philosophize about this stuff and over-generalize with statements like we just need to repent, etc., and that Jesus Christ is the bedrock, so if everyone would see the light, repent and join the LDS church, that would fix everything.

-- As if having faith in Jesus Christ, the restored gospel in its fullness, repentance, baptism, a living prophet, etc., has fixed everything -- even for most members of the Church.

But over and above all the philosophy and pontification -- in terms of action -- actually DOING something -- I'm wondering what specific, concrete steps can be taken, which should be the first step(s) taken, and in what order, etc.

Or, should we just stand back, wait for it all to collapse and let those who are still around to talk about it then discuss what ought to be done -- and what could have been done -- once all the smoke clears and the dust finally settles.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

I finally managed, during a dialog with a friend, to set down in writing a brief explanation of the main objective of all my political activity.

I have for a few years now felt driven, or constrained as Nephi would put it, to bring to the attention of LDS voters in America our failure to follow instructions given by prophets and apostles to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel". (Quotes from an October 1987 General Conference address by President Benson)

I'm not sure how this fits in with the topic at hand. But from that 11 October 1941 letter from the First presidency to the US Treasury, the statement "There are numbers of the Mormon people who have not fully responded to the teachings of the Church nor to be [sic] tenets of its organizations, and who are, therefore, lukewarm in the support of the Church, its policies, principles, and doctrines."

Also stated in that letter is "But we do reserve to ourselves the right to tell our people what we think is right regarding politics as affecting the fundamentals of our government system, to warn them of the dangers that lie under the present course, and to try to persuade them that their peace, their happiness, and their security do not lie along the path of the present trends of government......"We confess to you that it has not been possible for us to unify our own people even upon the necessity of such a turning about, and therefore we cannot, unfortunately, and we say it regretfully, make any practical suggestion to you as to how the nation can be turned about. But the President of the United States could do it in good part if he were willing to exert his effort along that line, but this he appears not to be willing to do."

I cannot prove it, of course, but I cannot help but think that if the American LDS voters had in unison, even as late as 1987, heeded the above mentioned instructions to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Founding Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel", the Lord would have interveened to help in turning our nation about.

This makes you my brother more than if we shared parents. This is exactly it, members want to study the "feel good" principles of the gospel but they are unable or unwilling to apply those principles in a real way. Yes they are willing to show charity by giving of their time and talents, yes they are anxiously engaged in many good and praiseworthy things. But the membership has largely completely ignored the church in regards to civic duty and principles of sound government...I, like you, feel constrained to bring this to members attention, and yet, when I do so they tend to look at ME with pity, and you can tell they are thinking "poor Brother Kappen, he just doesn't understand the gospel and that he needs to focus on spiritual matters and quit worrying so much about these transitory temporal problems.."

It is so frustrating sometimes, I want to scream THERE ARE NO TEMPORAL LAWS it is ALL SPIRITUAL WARFARE!

Thanks lundbaek. I really needed that post.

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

It's easy to philosophize about this stuff and over-generalize with statements like we just need to repent, etc., and that Jesus Christ is the bedrock, so if everyone would see the light, repent and joint the LDS church, that would fix everything.

-- As if having faith in Jesus Christ, the restored gospel in its fullness, repentance, baptism, a living prophet, etc., has fixed everything -- even for most members of the Church.

But over and above all the philosophy and pontification -- in terms of action -- actually DOING something -- I'm wondering what specific, concrete steps can be taken, which should be the first step(s), and in what order.

Or, should we just stand back, wait for it all to collapse and let those who are still around to talk about it discuss what ought to be done -- and what could have been done -- once all the smoke clears and the dust settles.

The first steps have got to be educational, because otherwise any steps we take are likely to be mis-steps that we will need to correct. However, much of this stuff literally cannot be taught, it must be learned and the hunger and desire for it has to come from the individual. And if you figure out the secret of awakening that spirit in someone else, please share the secret!

[JasonI am a nobody!]

It's easy to philosophize about this stuff and over-generalize with statements like we just need to repent, etc., and that Jesus Christ is the bedrock, so if everyone would see the light, repent and joint the LDS church, that would fix everything.

-- As if having faith in Jesus Christ, the restored gospel in its fullness, repentance, baptism, a living prophet, etc., has fixed everything -- even for most members of the Church.

But over and above all the philosophy and pontification -- in terms of action -- actually DOING something -- I'm wondering what specific, concrete steps can be taken, which should be the first step(s), and in what order.

Or, should we just stand back, wait for it all to collapse and let those who are still around to talk about it discuss what ought to be done -- and what could have been done -- once all the smoke clears and the dust settles.

The first steps have got to be educational, because otherwise any steps we take are likely to be mis-steps that we will need to correct. However, much of this stuff literally cannot be taught, it must be learned and the hunger and desire for it has to come from the individual. And if you figure out the secret of awakening that spirit in someone else, please share the secret!

I've had the fortune of seeing a number of people wake up....or at least they have begun working through that process....and it is indeed a process.

What I have seen though (and experienced myself) is that once they wake up? What the heck do you do about it?

I've seen many get involved in JBS or other such activities....get all pissed off....write some letters, send some emails, get blown off, and then resign themselves to hiding out - riding out the coming storm. Is this the best we can do? It might be...I'm just askin'???

Seems like there are educational efforts being made to one degree or another......plenty of documentaries floating around. What's the next REAL step? In terms of doing something productive...other than hiding in the cavity of a rock and charting the decline? Pissing and moaning about all that's wrong with the world - definitely includes myself and my gazillion posts on an obscure forum in the monstrosity of the internet!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Jason - good questions.

I think probably the biggest thing we have going against us is we just don't know how many of us there are. Most of us are so paranoid about the government or being put on some government list of malcontents to be rounded up for FEMA camps that it is almsot impossible to get people to openly disclose themselves once they are awake. That was one of the great things about the Ron Paul campaign - it really brought a lot of divergent people together, and let us see how many of us there really were. Of course, it brought some nutcases out of the woodwork as well.

It took less than 100 men who were well educated on the truth and were willing to lay everything on the line - life liberty and treasure - to put their name on the dotted line and say to a tyrant "enough!". A problem we face is we feel so impotent against the powers that are arrayed against us, and we see what has happened in recent history to those who make such a statement (Branch Davidians, Ruby Ridge, etc).

It seems that for now the best we can do is to try to educate others, try to take back the nation one precinct at a time. Too many people jsut want to get involved in the big races, such as president, we need to be working all the time, and especially non-presidential election years like 2010 provide us a good opportunity for a rlatively few voices to truly shake the LDG's to their foundation! But even among the awake, too many people do not feel like precinct meetings are important enough or a big enough deal. It's where we have to start though. (JBS has been preaching that Congress, not the presidency, is the key for a long time, and they are right on the federal level.)

I do feel like if we really knew how many of us are awake, and how many would wake up if we were a visible political presence, we would be encouraged. But the MSM does a good job of playing down our numbers even when we do show up to protests, political activities and etc.

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Jason - good questions.

I think probably the biggest thing we have going against us is we just don't know how many of us there are. Most of us are so paranoid about the government or being put on some government list of malcontents to be rounded up for FEMA camps that it is almsot impossible to get people to openly disclose themselves once they are awake. That was one of the great things about the Ron Paul campaign - it really brought a lot of divergent people together, and let us see how many of us there really were. Of course, it brought some nutcases out of the woodwork as well.

It took less than 100 men who were well educated on the truth and were willing to lay everything on the line - life liberty and treasure - to put their name on the dotted line and say to a tyrant "enough!". A problem we face is we feel so impotent against the powers that are arrayed against us, and we see what has happened in recent history to those who make such a statement (Branch Davidians, Ruby Ridge, etc).

It seems that for now the best we can do is to try to educate others, try to take back the nation one precinct at a time. Too many people jsut want to get involved in the big races, such as president, we need to be working all the time, and especially non-presidential election years like 2010 provide us a good opportunity for a rlatively few voices to truly shake the LDG's to their foundation! But even among the awake, too many people do not feel like precinct meetings are important enough or a big enough deal. It's where we have to start though. (JBS has been preaching that Congress, not the presidency, is the key for a long time, and they are right on the federal level.)

I do feel like if we really knew how many of us are awake, and how many would wake up if we were a visible political presence, we would be encouraged. But the MSM does a good job of playing down our numbers even when we do show up to protests, political activities and etc.

I think you hit a couple nails on the head there.

1) We get divided and then divided and then divided again. We have Constitutionalists, Libertarians, American Party, Independent American Party, etc etc etc. We divided over stupid stuff - 9/11 "TRUTHER" vs. not "TRUTHER", Iraq, Afghanistan, etc etc. MSM painted Ron Paul as a nut job, a terrorist, etc....and refused to give him media coverage until after the elections. We need a clear focused reasonable approach with the opportunity to succeed. Is that approach breaking the two party system....as I'm beginning to believe? Should it be something else? Something that breaks the power in a way we are capable of doing it? Are people sick enough of the Democrat vs. Republican that they will break free? Is it apparent enough? We've have very little shift through several presidents now....along with current shenanigans in Congress. Is that a message that will reach the masses? Invigorate them enough to cry for change? To take action for change?

2) Are there enough people out there willing to put their neck on the line? Sacrifice obscurity for freedom....and all the risks that entails?

3) I agree with you in that education is critical. Grass roots efforts are critical. Must start at the local level and work up. We need a unifying campaign slogan! We need an organization that facilitates working together.....one that can withstand the heat of the MSM (not get divided from our overall goal.....a goal which resonates with the majority of the people.....one that is quickly digested and easily absorbed....that all can AGREE TOGETHER is a major problem that needs to be addressed.....a problem that if addressed will be a major step towards major changes for the overall benefit of the people.....a return to a solid foundation......yet a major step that seems surmountable and not one where people sigh and disappear back into the woodwork......a problem the MSM will have great difficulty spinning). Is it the two party system - Republican vs. Democrat? Can we tackle and win that one THIS year? 37 Governors are up for election in 2010. 1/3 of the Senate. All of the House. Not to mention all the local elections. Can we make a difference?

[SmallFarmcaptain of 1,000]

wouldn't it be great if we had one common cause to rally around....

LOCALIZE FARMING!!!!!!

Sorry I couldn't resist the urge

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

On a couple of occasions President McKay satated that “Next to being one in worshiping God, there is nothing in this world upon which this Church should be more united than in upholding and defending the Constitution of the United States,” (President David O. McKay, February 1956, The Instructor, 91:34)

Two weeks ago at our stake conference a member of the mission presidency told us the most important work we have to do is missionary work. Two speakers later, a member of the Mesa, AZ temple presidency told us our most importnat work is temple work. And when we were on our family history mission at the SLC Family History Library, guess what we were told that Joseph Smith once said.

There are many facets to the Gospel. And most adtive members are too busy living the gospel to consider all of them.

[serenitylalacaptain of 100]

In terms of purely political issues, what is the single biggest issue/obstacle to making important fundamental changes in this country?

Did anyone say Obama yet?

[JasonI am a nobody!]

In terms of purely political issues, what is the single biggest issue/obstacle to making important fundamental changes in this country?

Did anyone say Obama yet?

Obama is just a puppet......a symptom.

While I agree with Lundbaek that the Constitution is of the utmost importance......because it is in alignment with Natural Law or God's Law.....you just can't say OK now guys we really need to uphold the Constitution. Many have been saying that for years. We need to elect people that will actually do it. How do you get them elected in our current entrenched two party system?

See my point? Where's the weakest link? Where's an effective starting point to focus our efforts on that will make a difference....rock the apple cart?

We must have representatives that truly represent the people.....not career politicians that represent special interests......so how do you get those folks in office?

We've got to move from philosophy (and mumble grumble)....and then strategy....to tactics on the ground. How do we win some battles.....so we have a shot at the war.....at least staying alive and not just conceding to the enemy in fear and frustration.

[clarkkent14captain of 1,000]

"Constitutional government, as designed by the framers, will survive only with a righteous people. “Our Constitution,” said John Adams, first vice-president and second president, “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (John R. Howe, Jr., The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1966, p. 189.)" - Ezra Taft Benson

That's why the cleansing is coming... to an America near you. The Lord has clearly warned America. Are they repenting and heeding the words of the Book of Mormon? Nope.

Repentance. My final answer.

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

There are many facets to the Gospel. And most active members are too busy living the gospel to consider all of them.

Between relatively innocent naivety, outright ignorance, and widespread apathy, I don't have a lot of faith or confidence that it's going to be most members of the Church that step up to the plate to actually make something happen.

Plus, neither the Church, nor Church members have the kind of political credibility and following that would be needed to actually make something happen.

For that reason -- in terms of actually making something happen -- I honestly believe that anything that has "Mormon" or "Utah" written on it would be short-lived.

For that reason, it is going to be critical to work with others, and use others to help educate, get the word out, and actually lead the charge.

Regardless of what we may want to think or believe, a lot is going to have to change before Mormons will be in a position to lead that charge.

Maybe we have other important roles that we need to explore.

[serenitylalacaptain of 100]

In terms of purely political issues, what is the single biggest issue/obstacle to making important fundamental changes in this country?

Did anyone say Obama yet?

Obama is just a puppet......a symptom.

While I agree with Lundbaek that the Constitution is of the utmost importance......because it is in alignment with Natural Law or God's Law.....you just can't say OK now guys we really need to uphold the Constitution. Many have been saying that for years. We need to elect people that will actually do it. How do you get them elected in our current entrenched two party system?

See my point? Where's the weakest link? Where's an effective starting point to focus our efforts on that will make a difference....rock the apple cart?

We must have representatives that truly represent the people.....not career politicians that represent special interests......so how do you get those folks in office?

We've got to move from philosophy (and mumble grumble)....and then strategy....to tactics on the ground. How do we win some battles.....so we have a shot at the war.....at least staying alive and not just conceding to the enemy in fear and frustration.

See that's another reason why the Jason fan club was established.

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

wouldn't it be great if we had one common cause to rally around

That is really kind of getting to the heart of the issue that I have been trying to explore.

What one common cause could a wide variety of people -- members, non-members, blacks, whites, liberals, conservatives, independents, etc. -- agree on and rally around that could make a meaningful difference in our country today?

Is there any such issue? Is there any such cause?

[JasonI am a nobody!]

"Constitutional government, as designed by the framers, will survive only with a righteous people. “Our Constitution,” said John Adams, first vice-president and second president, “was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (John R. Howe, Jr., The Changing Political Thought of John Adams, Princeton, New Jersey: Princeton University Press, 1966, p. 189.)" - Ezra Taft Benson

That's why the cleansing is coming... to an America near you. The Lord has clearly warned America. Are they repenting and heeding the words of the Book of Mormon? Nope.

Repentance. My final answer.

So you are basically declaring that all of America is wicked and beyond hope?

or that it comes down to Repentance....repentance of what? I dare say that if anyone has a need to repent....its the Saints. We've been commanded to Seek out and Elect righteous men who will govern in righteousness. Doesn't that mean getting actively involved in politics? Actively trying to make a difference?

FYI - I am as guilty or more guilty than most!

[JasonI am a nobody!]

wouldn't it be great if we had one common cause to rally around

That is really kind of getting to the heart of the issue that I have been trying to explore.

What one common cause could a wide variety of people -- members, non-members, blacks, whites, liberals, conservatives, independents, etc. -- agree on and rally around that could make a meaningful difference in our country today?

Is there any such issue? Is there any such cause?

I'm leaning hard towards the two party system.....if in fact we could disrupt....not necessarily even change....but just disrupt the status quo two party system....change the focus from personalities and party politics to principles....I think we could have an impact!

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

I'm leaning hard towards the two party system.....if in fact we could disrupt....not necessarily even change....but just disrupt the status quo two party system....change the focus from personalities and party politics to principles....I think we could have an impact!

First question: how/why could that make such an impact?

Second question: how could it be done?

[lundbaekcaptain of 1,000]

(No More) Mr. Nice Guy here looks for opportunity to awaken our fellow LDSs to their political inastuteness (if there is such a word) and their failure to follow instructions given by prophets and apostles to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Foundig Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel".

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

(No More) Mr. Nice Guy here looks for opportunity to awaken our fellow LDSs to their political inastuteness (if there is such a word) and their failure to follow instructions given by prophets and apostles to "learn the principles of the US Constitution in the tradition of the Foundig Fathers", to learn "what the prophets have said about the Constitution and the threats to it", to "become involved in civic affairs to see that we are properly represented", to "make our influence felt by our vote, our letters, our teaching, and our advice", and to become accurately informed and then let others know how we feel".

In that running list, what one thread or cause is there that many people -- members and non-members alike -- could rally around -- given our present circumstances -- that could actually change things and make a meaningful difference?

[JasonI am a nobody!]

I'm leaning hard towards the two party system.....if in fact we could disrupt....not necessarily even change....but just disrupt the status quo two party system....change the focus from personalities and party politics to principles....I think we could have an impact!

First question: how/why could that make such an impact?

Second question: how could it be done?

1) Well for starters I would look back at the impact of the Ron Paul Revolution....the amount of money he raised on the internet....the fear created such that MSM made a concerted effort to shut him down...people like Glenn Beck called him and his supporters home grown terrorists.

I know of a good number of people in their 20's that got caught up in the Ron Paul movement....a friend of mine and business partner purchased a blimp to fly next to the freeway in SLC. The first time in my lifetime I've seen the younger generations (X&Y) take a strong interest in politics...and in particular one man's campaign....and a man in his 70's no less....all based upon the man's stance.....and the potential to disrupt the embedded establishment.

Did Ron Paul succeed? He rocked the apple cart a little.....and he got a message out! His message resonated with folks because he told the truth about the situation. Perhaps he even has paved a way for more to follow???

2) Message - REAL CHANGE. Toss out the two party system and career politicians. Inalienable rights.....not Constitutionalists....but Inalienable rights....what the Constitution was designed to protect. No debate over the Constitution....debate as the founding fathers debated....over inalienable rights....the fundamental God given rights of the people. Natural Law.

This message can get people to think about the most basic concepts.....awaken them and expose them to Natural Law.....the foundation.

Still have questions myself in figuring out street level tactics....strategy...

[BrianM]

wouldn't it be great if we had one common cause to rally around....

You and your "one common cause"!!! You're always spouting off about your "one common cause" like some prophet, or even the Lord, told us we should be involved in one common cause or something

Enlighten us

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Well I was highly involved with a third party. And it was a great group and I still think that the national chairman of that party, Will Christensen, is one of the most politically awake and a man who has literally spent his life fighting the good fight for liberty. I spent many evenings at his home being enlightened.

The funny thing was that I got to know Will thru the John Birch Society. It was only when I broached the subject of the Independent American Party, and told him that I thought someone should start it since it is spoken of in prophecy, that I found out that it already existed and that Will was the state chairman! (This was back when it only existed in Utah and had not gone to the national level.)

For people that want to go the third party route, i cannot recommend the USAIP enough (http://www.usiap.com). However, after spending about a decade in that organization and I actually got to sit on the committee that drew up the national platform, I realized what Ron Paul did - that the GOP and the Dems, being truly one side of the same coin, have thrown up all kinds of obstacles for a third party. They kind of like their the stranglehold that they have on the levers of government, and indeed the sharing of power or the contention between them is mostly smoke and mirrors, meant to distract the serfs and give us two opposing teams to cheer for. The thing about the third party approach is you really do have to start at the ground and work up. Too many third parties focus on their presidential candidate or at best the Congress and Senate races. I think to succeed, third parties need to first focus on local and state level races, and be willing to put a lot of sacrifice into getting people at the state level in positions to govern so that people can see the good principles in action. But this is a slow process and probably takes 20 years to make a dent and sad to say most people, including myself, just are too impatient to wait 20 years and *hope* after all the sacrifice to see change.

And the fact of the matter is that if ALL of the JBS people, the Constitution Party People, the AIP, and also the people that have stayed in one of the two big parties because they have come to understand that third parties are largely blocked from playing - if ALL of those people would show up to GOP precinct meetings, and better yet do some educating and bring a friend - they could completely overthrow those in power in one election. If you have ever known someone in a third party you KNOW how activist they are, and you know how committed to principle they are. If we could just get that activism inside the GOP we could have anyone we wanted in any position in the state, and also the congressional and Senate seats in six years, and in most of them in two years or less.

That is one great thing the Campaign for Liberty is accomplishing - they have gotten people to realize that in large numbers. Voting every 4 years isn't going to cut it, voting ONLY in November every two years is not going to cut it, because if that is the first you get involved, then your choices have largely already been made for you and you are stuck choosing between two less than stellar candidates.

We have got to take the GOP over one precinct at a time. We have got to elect mayors and city councils that will stand up to the state, and we need state legislators that will stand up to the fed. We have got to make it our mission in life to get rid of party officers who are part of the problem and replace them with people that we know will not sell their principles (and those that do we have to remove them at the next opportunity and make sure that they never hold ANY public office again! Remember those who have betrayed us and see that they are challenged if they even consider ever running for office again!

I believe we will see great things happen this year, because people have had it. As someone said elsewhere, one of the big pluses of the current economic crisis is it has done a great job of waking people up and hopefully they won;t all just wait until November or be suckered into thinking that all we ahve to do is get Republican majorities in the House and Senate. It needs to stop being about party and about the balance of power between the parties.

And by all means if we cannot get good people on the slate for the GOP or the Democrats, then vote third party! Always vote for principle, don;t accept the lesser of two evils any more!

*pant* (gasp!)

[JasonI am a nobody!]

Great comments. I'm shy about going GOP. For one it appears like we are getting sucked into the game they created. I was quite disturbed when Ron Paul went Republican. I had to change from Independent to Republican to support him. To me it was a sell out. Others have tried to convince me it was a necessary evil and that Ron succeeded in getting his message out....which I don't deny.

Marketing is everything! Independence is where it is at. There are so many people (I've been one at times) who go to the voter booth and vote for anyone new....anyone outside of the status quo. I think the time is here where people are so sick of the same two faces.....we need independence. If the message is crafted on a common ground that all can buy into....something so obvious and in our face that needs to be changed.....I think the two party system is it.

From a tactical point of view....being independent buys more time than going the GOP route
http://www.fec.gov/pubrec/fe2010/2010pdates.pdf

The filing deadlines for independents are much later....buying some time. Need people, slogans, and word of mouth. The web is the fastest way in the world (that I know of) to get the word out to as many as possible.

More info - check links in green bar across the top
http://independentpac.blogspot.com/

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

How/why would it be easier or better to take over the GOP one precinct at a time than it would be to build a new party from scratch?

What part of the GOP Agenda do you find particularly compelling at this point? How is it really different, in practice, from the Democratic Agenda?

Focusing effort on taking over the GOP would obviously be intended to continue to preserve the two party system. Why is a two party system better than a three party or more pluralistic system?

From what I understand, according to recent polls, 60% of the population of this country now identify themselves as independents. How is taking over the GOP going to give that 60% a better voice?

In a diverse nation of 300 million people, how can we realistically think that two parties can reasonable represent the full spectrum? What am I missing?

[JasonI am a nobody!]

The evidence of the GOP trying to co-opt the Tea Parties is evidence that they are on the rocks....why would we try to build up an old decrepit structure. Now is the time to kick'em in the knee caps and bring'em down!

When I last reported on Sunlight Before Signing—President Obama’s promise to post bills online for five days before signing them—the administration had begun to rack up the wins. Of the 13 bills he signed in December, five had received the Sunlight Before Signing treatment.

Alas, since January, only one of the 18 bills subject to the promise has gotten the online exposure the president promised. (That was H.R. 1377/P.L. 111-137, a bill dealing with reimbursement of veterans for services they receive at non-V.A. facilities.)

It’s an unfortunate slow-down from the heady days when the president’s SBS batting average rocketed from a dismal .009 to .048. The president’s current Sunlight Before Signing average is only slightly improved at .049 (7 for 142).

http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2010/03/ ... Liberty%29
Bold and Underline mine

The American people have been lied to so many times they don't trust a word any of these guys say....and the main stream media is following quickly on their heels. Its Hammertime!

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

Jason that is true, and there is no reason not to support both routes. I would sitll register as a Repbulican, but be an independent Republican! Do not give your loyalty to the party, it doesn't deserve it!

The caucuses are going to be later this month - this is where the action is this is where change can be made! I am not saying this to "grow" the GOP. I am jsut telling you from experience that you can accomplish so much more, consider yourself a mole inside the corrupt party if you will.

If you are unable to make the changes within the party, then as you say filing deadlines for independents are later, and by all means if there is no one worthy of your vote that is running, then run yourself or encourage someone who is worthy to run as an independent! Or looka t who the Constitution party is running.

The biggest problem you have going indy or third party is that as you know, a good number of the people in this state are going to continue blindly pulling the lever for "their" party. Even if an independent gets the name recognition and the money to make a serious run, getting the lifelong Republican or Democrat to vote for them is an uphill battle! It is far better to start organizing the year before an election year and get your chosen candidate to begin building momentum for a run within the GOP.

blakwatch the advantage is that if you have a person that is truly representative of correct principles, you get not only the independent voters (who actually do some research on the candidates) as well as the mindless "party voters". In Utah, it is going to be very tough to get an independent elected over the *ahem* Mitt Romney zombie voters who always pull the lever for 'R'.

It is not about building up a decrepit structure, it is about infiltrating and taking it over, which is exactly what the neoconservatives did to the Republican Party! They didn;t start their own party, they co-opted an existing one! And as I said, if we fail in taking the party back, then by all means the thing to do is leave it. (at least until the next election).

You seem to think that working in the party of necessity strengthens it. No, if you are fighting for principles that are not the same as the principles of those currently running the party you weaken it! Have you ever worked in a third party or for an independent candidate? Do you have a clue about how much election law is stacked against third parties? Why would you abandon the fight to control the party in power, a party that many people will vote for just because they consider it part of their religion - why would you abandon that fight which is much easier to win than storming the castle walls (which is what an independent run effectively is)

[blakwatchcaptain of 100]

Do you know what happens when you put new wine in old bottles?

[Rosabellacaptain of 1,000]

In terms of purely political issues, what is the single biggest issue/obstacle to making important fundamental changes in this country?

Repentance. (righteousness exalteth a nation)

You took the words right out of my mouth. I was about to post one word and one word only Repentance! I just skimmed the thread and saw you posted it lol

So Amen to your post

[Original_Intentcaptain of 1,000]

How/why would it be easier or better to take over the GOP one precinct at a time than it would be to build a new party from scratch?

What part of the GOP Agenda do you find particularly compelling at this point? How is it really different, in practice, from the Democratic Agenda?

Focusing effort on taking over the GOP would obviously be intended to continue to preserve the two party system. Why is a two party system better than a three party or more pluralistic system?

From what I understand, according to recent polls, 60% of the population of this country now identify themselves as independents. How is taking over the GOP going to give that 60% a better voice?

In a diverse nation of 300 million people, how can we realistically think that two parties can reasonable represent the full spectrum? What am I missing?

Spoken like someone who has never tried to build a party from scratch. See the thing is, you have to build it one precinct at a time, just like taking over the other party. Here is the fact - if you get twenty people in every precinct actively supporting a third party, you are still going to get annihilated in the election. Those twenty votes in November are not going to mean jack squat. However, if you get those same twenty activists to a GOP precinct meeting, those twenty people are going to elect the delegates, the precinct officers, EVERYTHING. Game over, you win (if you did this statewide). Those same people who are not going to mean anything in a general election are going to be chosing WHO the candidates for the party are going to be.

But if you really think you know what you are talking about, and you believe that building a third party is the way to victory KNOCK YOURSELF OUT, brother, and I sincerely wish you the best of luck!