Gresham's Law

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Silver
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Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

If you're not buying silver, you should be. It may be uncomfortable to read those words, but they're true.

A dime in 1964 was worth 10 cents. A new 2017 dime is worth the same ten cents. However, let's compare.

That dime in 1964 was made of 90% silver. Today, even though it looks essentially the same as the 2017 dime, it has a value of $1.26. It has purchasing power of $1.26. That 1964 dime has more than 12 times the purchasing power of your 2017 dime.

What is the intrinsic value of the 2017 dime? Since it is made of nickel-clad copper, the true value of the 2017 dime is only 1.35 cents. We say it is worth a dime because the government decides that we must use that thin little slice of metal as a dime. If we were free to trade with precious metals, nobody would give us 10 cents worth of anything for the little nickel/copper monster.

If you want to learn more, start here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham's_law

Reference for the values shown above come from coinflation. www.coinflation.com

Don't say I didn't warn you.

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Robin Hood
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Robin Hood »

We are gradually building up a reserve of Silver Britannia's, which we buy from the Royal Mint.

What is your view regarding gold?

Silver
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote: May 26th, 2017, 8:07 am We are gradually building up a reserve of Silver Britannia's, which we buy from the Royal Mint.

What is your view regarding gold?
Gold is another great element created by Jehovah. If I have any left over after the coming troubles, I'm donating mine to the Street Paving Department of Zion.

In my lifetime, gold only cost $35/oz. That should send a strong message to those who think poorly of precious metal ownership. I see gold filling a different role than silver. In good times, it is a store of wealth beyond the grasp of government and it is highly portable. Buying property (land & buildings) or ransoming a relative makes more sense with gold in tougher times.

Either way, paper money always ALWAYS fails so I can't see any wisdom in keeping all one's financial reserve in funny money.

Keep buying those Britannias!

samizdat
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by samizdat »

Soundest financial advice I have ever received, in three short sentences.

Don't get into debt.

Don't put all your eggs in one basket.

Have your money work for you, not you work for money.

Silver
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

Hey, it's the weekend. Why not stroll into a coin shop and buy your first piece of silver?

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captainfearnot
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by captainfearnot »

Could someone explain to me in broad strokes the investment strategy of buying precious metals? I've never really understood it. Is it just an inflation hedge?

Silver
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

captainfearnot wrote: May 26th, 2017, 8:35 pm Could someone explain to me in broad strokes the investment strategy of buying precious metals? I've never really understood it. Is it just an inflation hedge?
I cannot. It's because I do not "invest" in precious metals. To me, investing automatically assumes that the investor will one day divest. I don't buy to sell later. I'm only converting my Federal Reserve Hiney Notes into a precious metal, one that is Constitutional, by the way. So I never spend money I can't afford to kiss good-bye and I never use the grocery money to acquire metals.

In addition to this mindset, I try to remember that eventually, material decreed as money always fails. So the question in your mind could be, how much of my financial reserve am I content to leave in paper which falls to zero, instead of how much do I want to convert to silver/gold.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Rose Garden »

As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.

Silver
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:16 pm As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.
Until Zion is built, money will have a role in society. Until then, Christ has approved the US Constitution and the Constitution calls for the use of gold and silver as money, not paper printed by a private bank.

My dad has a small place in the country. I took a leave of absence from work last November to go work on his property. It was immensely gratifying, much more so than pounding on a computer all day long. Therefore, total agreement on the value of food, etc.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Rose Garden »

Silver wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:22 pm
Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:16 pm As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.
Until Zion is built, money will have a role in society. Until then, Christ has approved the US Constitution and the Constitution calls for the use of gold and silver as money, not paper printed by a private bank.

My dad has a small place in the country. I took a leave of absence from work last November to go work on his property. It was immensely gratifying, much more so than pounding on a computer all day long. Therefore, total agreement on the value of food, etc.
I agree also with you on money having a role in society right now. I wanted to point out that changing from paper to metal money doesn't necessarily solve the problems. It can help change perspective but there is further change necessary. We need to be able to see past the money if we are going to fully comprehend truth. And we need to comprehend the truth if we are going to thrive in the coming down fall off fiat money.

I also love the fruits of hard work although I'm cursing myself right now for not building up more physical capability before now. I had a long stint in the garden yesterday and my muscles haven't forgiven me yet.

brianj
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by brianj »

Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 2:01 pm
Silver wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:22 pm
Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:16 pm As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.
Until Zion is built, money will have a role in society. Until then, Christ has approved the US Constitution and the Constitution calls for the use of gold and silver as money, not paper printed by a private bank.

My dad has a small place in the country. I took a leave of absence from work last November to go work on his property. It was immensely gratifying, much more so than pounding on a computer all day long. Therefore, total agreement on the value of food, etc.
I agree also with you on money having a role in society right now. I wanted to point out that changing from paper to metal money doesn't necessarily solve the problems. It can help change perspective but there is further change necessary. We need to be able to see past the money if we are going to fully comprehend truth. And we need to comprehend the truth if we are going to thrive in the coming down fall off fiat money.

I also love the fruits of hard work although I'm cursing myself right now for not building up more physical capability before now. I had a long stint in the garden yesterday and my muscles haven't forgiven me yet.
I'm going to disagree with you based on the answer to the following question. What is money?
Money is nothing more than a convenient unit of exchange. As long as money exists we can agree on monetary value for goods or services and trade money for those goods or services. You trade your time and effort for money at a job then you trade that money for food and other things you need or want. If money didn't exist we would still do the same thing, only we would have to haggle over every exchange we make.

Thanks to money we don't have to rely on bartering. If money were eliminated and we returned to an agrarian society, bartering for exchange, there would still be inequality. Someone would have more fertile land or livestock than their neighbors, or better access to water. They would be able to accumulate more cows or grain, use that greater resource to increase their ability to produce, and be able to gain an even greater advantage over their neighbors.

The issue is not money; it is private property. If we eliminated currency people would use precious metals or other items of very limited availability as a form of exchange. Inmates used to use cigarettes as a form of currency until prisons started going tobacco free. Without coin and currency they found something else to use for bartering. Only a return to the United Order will solve the problems of inequality.

And, of course, compensation in today's world is based on how much people value what can be provided. It is easy to say that a farmer or teacher produces something of greater value than the executive, but the people who are purchasing the efforts of farmers, teachers, and executives would disagree with you.

Silver
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Silver »

Robin Hood wrote: May 26th, 2017, 8:07 am We are gradually building up a reserve of Silver Britannia's, which we buy from the Royal Mint.

What is your view regarding gold?
One of my favorite websites has Britannias for sale in US$. https://www.providentmetals.com/silver/ ... annia.html

If the freight (and duties?) were not too expensive, you might be able to import the coins for less than your domestic purchase. I found pricing at the mint here: https://www.royalmintbullion.com/Produc ... -microsite

Is that your normal source?

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Rose Garden
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Rose Garden »

brianj wrote: May 27th, 2017, 10:45 pm
Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 2:01 pm
Silver wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:22 pm
Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:16 pm As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.
Until Zion is built, money will have a role in society. Until then, Christ has approved the US Constitution and the Constitution calls for the use of gold and silver as money, not paper printed by a private bank.

My dad has a small place in the country. I took a leave of absence from work last November to go work on his property. It was immensely gratifying, much more so than pounding on a computer all day long. Therefore, total agreement on the value of food, etc.
I agree also with you on money having a role in society right now. I wanted to point out that changing from paper to metal money doesn't necessarily solve the problems. It can help change perspective but there is further change necessary. We need to be able to see past the money if we are going to fully comprehend truth. And we need to comprehend the truth if we are going to thrive in the coming down fall off fiat money.

I also love the fruits of hard work although I'm cursing myself right now for not building up more physical capability before now. I had a long stint in the garden yesterday and my muscles haven't forgiven me yet.
I'm going to disagree with you based on the answer to the following question. What is money?
Money is nothing more than a convenient unit of exchange. As long as money exists we can agree on monetary value for goods or services and trade money for those goods or services. You trade your time and effort for money at a job then you trade that money for food and other things you need or want. If money didn't exist we would still do the same thing, only we would have to haggle over every exchange we make.

Thanks to money we don't have to rely on bartering. If money were eliminated and we returned to an agrarian society, bartering for exchange, there would still be inequality. Someone would have more fertile land or livestock than their neighbors, or better access to water. They would be able to accumulate more cows or grain, use that greater resource to increase their ability to produce, and be able to gain an even greater advantage over their neighbors.

The issue is not money; it is private property. If we eliminated currency people would use precious metals or other items of very limited availability as a form of exchange. Inmates used to use cigarettes as a form of currency until prisons started going tobacco free. Without coin and currency they found something else to use for bartering. Only a return to the United Order will solve the problems of inequality.

And, of course, compensation in today's world is based on how much people value what can be provided. It is easy to say that a farmer or teacher produces something of greater value than the executive, but the people who are purchasing the efforts of farmers, teachers, and executives would disagree with you.
I understand what you are saying. However, I believe that it is a false dichotomy that we have to choose either money or bartering. Yes, that is necessary in this telestial world, but I believe that those who are seeking Zion ought to have a higher perspective. You cannot get out of the telestial kingdom as long as you are thinking in terms of money.

Members of a family work things out most often without monetary exchange. While their are exceptions, most families recognize that the environment in a family is most harmonious when you are focusing more on making sure each family member's needs are filled rather than on whether or not everyone is getting a fair exchange. This is because most families have several members who are unable for whatever reason to offer a fair exchange. Every infant would die if family members weren't willing to give freely to them. Likewise, families don't do well if each member isn't taught to do their part. So a healthy family environment contains the elements of giving more than a person "earns" and requiring each member to give all they are able.

Like Silver said, money will be necessary until we have Zion. That is because once you leave the confines of the family, we stop thinking in terms of filling each others' needs and start thinking in terms of fair exchange. And yet, it is impossible to provide a fair exchange. As I noted initially, my activities as a gold miner would be considered more valuable than my activities as a farmer. Additionally, men are not all equal in ability and so some can provide more valued work than others. This inequality causes all sorts of problems, including the tendency of more people wanting to go claim a mine instead of growing food. This is why in the U.S. our production is being sent overseas. Most Americans have sought careers that will earn them money (i.e. lawyers, bankers, insurance sales,) but not necessarily produce life's necessities.

If we could change our mentality, so that we were more concerned about the welfare of our fellow man, instead of our own welfare, then we would be working toward Zion. It is possible to make that change even in this money-driven world because the balanced man understands that he cannot help another person if he himself is destitute. The man who had better land and more resources would take care of himself but then he would do what he could to help others. It would be his natural state because in his heart he was concerned about others.

I would point out that our mentality is the cause of Gresham's law. The reason "bad" money tends to circulate is because we've put our own interests over others'. And so when we have the choice to spend a dollar bill or a silver dollar, we go with the dollar bill and keep the silver.

These types of problems will continue to exist as long as mankind puts himself first over others. It won't make a difference whether we are using paper or metal or anything else. People will continue to be motivated to create "bad" money in the first place and then people will be motivated to circulate "bad" money. As long as we need money for exchange in the first place, we will continue to have these problems because the same mentality that requires money also promotes fraud. The only real answer to the problems is to get our heats in a state where we do not need money in order to exchange goods with others. When we give what we can to others because we want them to have all they need, then all these problems will simply cease to exist. That's when we'll be paving those roads with gold.

Irrelevant
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Re: Gresham's Law

Post by Irrelevant »

Meili wrote: May 27th, 2017, 12:16 pm As long as we think in terms of money, we will fall short of understanding true wealth. If our nation currently traded in gold, then I would be able to gain a great deal of money by discovering a gold mine and mining it. The problem with that is, my work would be considered more valuable than a farmer's work, even though he might work harder than I do and even though he produces goods that sustain life. No one survives eating gold.

As long as we accept any form of money, we set up a system which by its nature upsets the natural system of value. Money of any kind blinds us to true value. In a system of money, you are considered a person of greater value if you have access to more money, not if your work is of more value to humanity.

Countries where people depend on actual production to sustain themselves have healthier attitudes about God. You don't see atheism in these places because they can see first hand that there is a power beyond their own sustaining them. They may have problems with idolatry because they don't understand the true nature of God but you don't see them denying the existence of God because they can't. They know something besides themselves is raising up the crops they plant and producing rain.

I believe that when our broken system fails, we are going to find that gold and silver aren't as valuable as we thought. What will be valuable is the ability to forage from the forest, the ability to raise food, the ability to work out problems with others, and first and foremost, the ability to trust God.
I'm not against buying precious metals but since, as you said, no one survives eating gold, I feel it more important to acquire different skills. Through one's ability to provide food, shelter, etc (and availability of resources, of course) is he/she truly self-reliant.

I know several people who focus heavily on buying silver, to the detriment of other things like having a supply of food on hand, unlike the OP, who only buys what he can afford to lose. Adding silver and gold to your other preparation is certainly a good thing. Again, I'm not anti-metals, rather pro-skills, I guess.

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