"It is what it is / Let it be" Attitude ...

[cynikal]

I have been in a long discussion with a friend about be prepared and standing up for yourself. They have the attitude of "its Gods will", or have said in the past "would it not be better to be gone before it get worse?" I just cannot buy into this thought. I have heard many members say the same thing - "God will take care of us". I have a hard time reconciling this thinking of being a sacrificial lamb to teach our enemies a lesson - like, "I showed him as i laid down to allow them to kill be and my family".

I might be a little more combative than I should, what really sets them off is a sticker on the side of my Jeep with "Teacum's Heart and Daggers Brigade" and a "Zion's Camp Recon Team" on the back. It shows my sentiment in that I do not want to live on my knees in subjugation, but would rather "Die with my boots on" if you know what I mean. I am not looking for a war / attack, but will defend my Title of Liberty with all i have been blessed.

What do you all think and have you been in these situations before?

[David13]

I agree with your point of view.
God will take care of us. But we must do the footwork. We must do the preparation. And we must take the action when the time comes. God has already given us a strong will for survival. We may deny it. Hopefully we won't deny it til it's too late.
dc

[rewcox]

I have been in a long discussion with a friend about be prepared and standing up for yourself. They have the attitude of "its Gods will", or have said in the past "would it not be better to be gone before it get worse?" I just cannot buy into this thought. I have heard many members say the same thing - "God will take care of us". I have a hard time reconciling this thinking of being a sacrificial lamb to teach our enemies a lesson - like, "I showed him as i laid down to allow them to kill be and my family".

I might be a little more combative than I should, what really sets them off is a sticker on the side of my Jeep with "Teacum's Heart and Daggers Brigade" and a "Zion's Camp Recon Team" on the back. It shows my sentiment in that I do not want to live on my knees in subjugation, but would rather "Die with my boots on" if you know what I mean. I am not looking for a war / attack, but will defend my Title of Liberty with all i have been blessed.

What do you all think and have you been in these situations before?

You might want to read and ponder the story of the Anti Nephi Lehis. Interesting that Mormon (or was he directed?) put it in the Book of Mormon.

[Older/wiser?]

Very good point, those sections of Alma are my favorite as an example of the "most beloved people" . The examples of wars and different stragedies given seemed to me a teaching manual so different times require different sacrifices. The bottom line is whatever the Lord requires or asks is what we do. Even as in Nephi killing Laban, which was abhorrent to him. Maybe our own personal conversion at this point is so critical because as the" tares are separated from the wheat "none will have the courage to make the sacrifice of laying down ones life either as martyr, or warrior without knowing the Lord.

[mirkwood]

You might want to read and ponder the story of the Anti Nephi Lehis. Interesting that Mormon (or was he directed?) put it in the Book of Mormon.

That isn't a good example of why you shouldn't defend yourself or your family or anyone else. The Anti Nephi Lehies were a group of ex bloodthirsty murderers. Their circumstances were way different than the rest of us.


Alma 43: 46-47 "And they were doing that which they felt was the duty which they owed their God; for the Lord had said unto them, and also unto their fathers, that: Inasmuch as ye are not guilty of the first offense, neither the second, ye shall not suffer yourselves to be slain by the hands of your enemies. And again, the Lord has said that: Ye shall defend your families even unto bloodshed. Therefore for this cause were the Nephites contending with the Lamanites, to defend themselves, and their families, and their lands, their country, and their rights, and their religion."


Take the time to read this: http://www.nauvoo.com/response.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[2EstablishZion]

I agree that people who use the anti-Nephi Lehies as an example of why we should be pacifist to the point of laying down our lives - to draw that conclusion is to take the entire story out of context, and also would make the anti-Nephi Lehies more righteous than the Nephites that died to defend them and also the Stripling warrior sons who fought in their defense.

It's an extreme case of taking a specific covenant taken by a specifc group for a very specific reason and trying to make it a universal ideal. No.

[brianj]

After six years in the Marine Corps, the only way I would let somebody kill me without fighting back is if I was commanded to, or if it came by surprise - such as a sniper's bullet.

Regarding those silly people who say they will be taken care of, I would probably ask something like: "You mean the same way the five foolish virgins were taken care of? Does that parable teach people to be prepared or to not worry because they'll just be taken care of no matter what?"

[Jason]

After six years in the Marine Corps, the only way I would let somebody kill me without fighting back is if I was commanded to, or if it came by surprise - such as a sniper's bullet.

Regarding those silly people who say they will be taken care of, I would probably ask something like: "You mean the same way the five foolish virgins were taken care of? Does that parable teach people to be prepared or to not worry because they'll just be taken care of no matter what?"

I understand your sentiment - Semper Fi

That said we may be judging a little to harshly. There is something to be said for faith in God for protection and guidance (He will take care of us). But I also agree that we need to do our part.

In going with scriptures previously noted in this thread I add the following:

And I, Nephi, did take the sword of Laban, and after the manner of it did make many swords, lest by any means the people who were now called Lamanites should come upon us and destroy us; for I knew their hatred towards me and my children and those who were called my people.

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/2-n ... ang=eng#13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...making swords to kill family members - brothers, sisters, nieces, nephews, etc....

[rewcox]

I agree that people who use the anti-Nephi Lehies as an example of why we should be pacifist to the point of laying down our lives - to draw that conclusion is to take the entire story out of context, and also would make the anti-Nephi Lehies more righteous than the Nephites that died to defend them and also the Stripling warrior sons who fought in their defense.

It's an extreme case of taking a specific covenant taken by a specifc group for a very specific reason and trying to make it a universal ideal. No.

The ANLs buried their weapons of rebellion. That is a good concept. Years later, their sons save the Nephites from destruction.

Our good friend Teancum let anger get the better of him and he perished. A very sad day for such a courageous warrior.

[2EstablishZion]

Yes, they buried their weapons that had been cleansed of their bloodshed, which inspired them to covenant that they would never use their weapons again. God tested them to the extreme if they would keep that covenant. I would say that due to the murders that they had committed, perhaps living up to that covenant was a requirement specific to them. I do not know this, but that's a supposition on my part.

I agree that we should not let anger dictate our actions, and if we ever need to take up weapons it should be done with sorrow and also praying for inspiration/confirmation that we are doing the right thing.

[Sandinista]

I have been in a long discussion with a friend about be prepared and standing up for yourself. They have the attitude of "its Gods will", or have said in the past "would it not be better to be gone before it get worse?" I just cannot buy into this thought. I have heard many members say the same thing - "God will take care of us". I have a hard time reconciling this thinking of being a sacrificial lamb to teach our enemies a lesson - like, "I showed him as i laid down to allow them to kill be and my family".

I might be a little more combative than I should, what really sets them off is a sticker on the side of my Jeep with "Teacum's Heart and Daggers Brigade" and a "Zion's Camp Recon Team" on the back. It shows my sentiment in that I do not want to live on my knees in subjugation, but would rather "Die with my boots on" if you know what I mean. I am not looking for a war / attack, but will defend my Title of Liberty with all i have been blessed.

What do you all think and have you been in these situations before?

Where can I get some of those stickers? B-)

[gclayjr]

Sandanista,

I couldn't find Daggers Brigade in the BOM, so I looked it up and I think might like 1st Reconnaissance battalion better, but I like the sentiment

In a previous thread, I carefully laid out the story of the Anti-Nephi_Lehis, including the fact that they engaged the Nephites to defend them (paid mercenaries) in the land of Jershon. Nobody gave any coherent rebuttal,to any of my arguments. They just wait awhile and repeat the same nonsense as if repeating childhood poem.


Regards,

George Clay

[cynikal]

Where can I get some of those stickers? B-)

Had them made ... some where on the internet - you can get anything on the internet. :))

[cynikal]

Sandanista,

I couldn't find Daggers Brigade in the BOM, so I looked it up and I think might like 1st Reconnaissance battalion better, but I like the sentiment

In a previous thread, I carefully laid out the story of the Anti-Nephi_Lehis, including the fact that they engaged the Nephites to defend them (paid mercenaries) in the land of Jershon. Nobody gave any coherent rebuttal,to any of my arguments. They just wait awhile and repeat the same nonsense as if repeating childhood poem.


Regards,

George Clay

do you have a link? i would like to read that.

[gclayjr]

cynikal,

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=42886&p=721828&hili ... on#p721828

I hope this helps.

Regards,

George Clay

[gclayjr]

cynical,

The following quote might be useful.

Alma 27:23-24

And behold, we will set our armies between the land Jershon and the land Nephi, that we may protect our brethren in the land Jershon; and this we do for our brethren, on account of their fear to take up arms against their brethren lest they should commit sin; and this their great fear came because of their sore repentance which they had, on account of their many murders and their awful wickedness.

24 And now behold, this will we do unto our brethren, that they may inherit the land Jershon; and we will guard them from their enemies with our armies, on condition that they will give us a portion of their substance to assist us that we may maintain our armies.

In fact the area between the land of Jershon, and the Land of Nephi, was NOT the land in which the Nephites lived, so I guess this was a FOREIGN war!

Regards,

George Clay

[rewcox]

Sandanista,

I couldn't find Daggers Brigade in the BOM, so I looked it up and I think might like 1st Reconnaissance battalion better, but I like the sentiment

In a previous thread, I carefully laid out the story of the Anti-Nephi_Lehis, including the fact that they engaged the Nephites to defend them (paid mercenaries) in the land of Jershon. Nobody gave any coherent rebuttal,to any of my arguments. They just wait awhile and repeat the same nonsense as if repeating childhood poem.

Regards,
George Clay

do you have a link? i would like to read that.

The Nephites were not mercenaries:

a soldier who is paid by a foreign country to fight in its army : a soldier who will fight for any group or country that hires him

The Nephites were protecting a group of people who had previously been enemies, but had repented and would not shed blood since that was part of their past.

The ANLs gave food to the Nephites so they were not a burden. The Nephites also were not bloodthirsty at this time, using their army for protection. Captain Moroni is a great example of doing the best he could not to have bloodshed.

We see the results every day where those who desire bloodshed killing others by terrorist activities, theft, murder, and revenge. Our puny weapons do not solve the problem or protect us.

The stripling warriors, sons of the ANLs, showed what happens when protected by God's power due to faith. Maybe Samuel the Lamanite was one of those stripping warriors, years later that was able to stand on the walls while the wicked Nephites tried to slay him in vain.

God's power is impressive, our puny attempts to try something else is comical at best, and tragic at worst.

[rewcox]

.

[gclayjr]

rewcox,

I'm not sure exactly where you are coming from. There are many on this board, who try to use the story of the Anti-Lehi-Nephis to justify some radical pacifist point of view that it is more noble to just sit and die when attacked, rather than defend oneself. There are others who say, that one should never fight a war until the prophet has declared it a just war. Then there are others who say that nowhere in the Book of Mormon was there any justification to fight a war unless one is directly attacked.

The interesting thing is that in truth, the story of the Anti_Lehi-Nephis, not only does not support any of these false assertions, it is actually the perfect story to prove tha falseness of each of these assertions.

1) Anti-Lehi_Nephis never said that fighting in self defense was wrong, they merely took upon themselves a special covenant because of their extreme gratitude that Jesus' atonement would be able to save them, even after they had murdered so many people.

2) The Anti-Lehi-Nephis not only thought that self defense was OK, but if they had made this special covenant, then it would be OK to pay someone else to do it.

on condition that they will give us a portion of their substance to assist us that we may maintain our armies.

This doesn't merely mean that they would occasionally bring out a piece of bread and milk for the soldiers, this means that they were providing whatever was necessary to support an army. One could split the hairs on whether this was technically "mercenary" operations, but it does not change the fact that the Anti=-Nephi_Lehis were paying the Nephites to surround their land and defend them.

3) the Nephites who lived in the land of Zarahemla had decided to give to the Anti-Lehi-Nephites some land that laid between them and the Land of Nephi, which was populated with Lamonites. They then, for a price, decided to provide an army to defend it.

4) When the Lamonites attacked, those troops defending the land of Jershon fought back, without any indication of waiting for the Prophet Alma to declare it a Just war.

Therefor the TRUE story of the Anti_Nephi-Lehis is a story of

1) Defending against hostile Aggression
2) providing an Army to defend another land (Jershon)
3) paying for an Army to defend this foreign land
4) and going about that defense when Attacked, without any indication of seeking a prophetic endorsement


So it is a great, inspirational story, but it doesn't tell the story that some here would like to pretend it does.

Regards,

George Clay

[sbishop]

I would just quote the following:

D&C 38:30 if ye are prepared ye shall not fear

D&C 109:88 Organize yourselves; prepare every needful thing

We are promised the lords help "after all that we can do" This should guide our action. If the time comes and we are commanded, as was zion's camp, to let the Lord fight our battles then we will not fear.

[cynikal]

Thanks everyone - I am not trying to start a fight, don't want one. I just see more and more people saying and supporting pacifist ideas. my attitude is that if we are to be sheep, why teach about the Title of Liberty, and all the other lesson of self-defense. Or, even the use of arms to make a point Ammon was not slow to defend the king's livestock or to pull his sword to overwhelm to king of the Lamanites. Why for years have we been taught to have food storage if it is not needed - the Lord will provide, right?

[Robin Hood]

I think it's horses for courses.
There are times when we need to box clever and choose our battles wisely in order to conserve our energies and keep our powder dry until we really need to put a dog in the fight with all guns blazing.
And at the end of the day, all things being equal, that's a lot of cliché's.

[cynikal]

I think it's horses for courses.
There are times when we need to box clever and choose our battles wisely in order to conserve our energies and keep our powder dry until we really need to put a dog in the fight with all guns blazing.
And at the end of the day, all things being equal, that's a lot of cliché's.

if you would have quoted Sun Tzu then you could have wrapped the whole thing up.

[rewcox]

I think it's horses for courses.
There are times when we need to box clever and choose our battles wisely in order to conserve our energies and keep our powder dry until we really need to put a dog in the fight with all guns blazing.
And at the end of the day, all things being equal, that's a lot of cliché's.

if you would have quoted Sun Tzu then you could have wrapped the whole thing up.

Alma's people were enjoying the good life with their new religion when one of Alma's peers showed up with Lamanite reinforcement.

The burdens put on Alma's people were harsh, including death to anyone caught praying. In this case, because they were righteous, the Lord lightened their burdens. After some time, the Lord even provided a way for their escape.

The people who were still with Limhi, decided to fight the Lamanites, and lost many men/husbands in battle, leaving a lot of widows and fatherless children.

My first inclination wouldn't be to grab a gun and start shooting. Hopefully the Spirit will guide on what each of us should do, which could be different according to circumstances.

[skmo]

I have been in a long discussion with a friend about be prepared and standing up for yourself...

I might be a little more combative than I should,

If you realize this and you're still being overly combative, you've already got part of your answer there. If even you believe you should dial it back but refuse, well, I'm sure you know we all live with our choices.

what really sets them off is a sticker on the side of my Jeep with "Teacum's Heart and Daggers Brigade" and a "Zion's Camp Recon Team" on the back.

Like you, I personally admire Teancum. Some people just really admire good soldiery, to others it's something to be avoided at all costs if possible (and it wouldn't surprise me to find that Teancum himself felt that way.)

It shows my sentiment in that I do not want to live on my knees in subjugation, but would rather "Die with my boots on" if you know what I mean.

I know what you mean, you know what you mean, but many others won't. They'll assume that not only are you bragging about your own prowess, but that you're bloodthirsty and looking forward to living the "Red Dawn" experience. It's kind of like the T-shirts I see "promoting" the Marine Corps with USMC being used to say "Uncle Sam's Misguided Children" and then a scene of a skull and lots of dead people lying around, or a bloody zombie looking creature. The USMC GREATLY frowns on them. They're supposed to be professional soldiers, not mindless killing machines.

Another example is any kind of overly aggressive bumper stickers. "Forget the dog, beware of OWNER!" accompanied by the barrel end of a big revolver. "Kill 'em All and Let God Sort 'em Out." Yard signs that say "Is there life after death? Trespass here and find out!" "Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will be shot again."

Any of those is snot only likely to hint to people that you don't care about anyone but yourself, and perhaps that you're looking for an excuse to kill someone. Say an unfortunate incident happens where you actually have to shoot someone to defend yourself or your family. Do you want the police and prosecutor seeing these signs or stickers when they decide whether or not you used excessive force? How about for the attorney of the dead man's family when they decide to sue you for thoughtlessly gunning down their loving and kind son? Do you want to give them any reason to say to a jury "Look, the blood-thirsty gun-nut was bragging that he was looking t kill someone"? Do you want to advertise "Proud NRA Supporter" so people know to go through your stuff when you're not home to find guns to sell?

I am not looking for a war / attack, but will defend my Title of Liberty with all i have been blessed.

Being prepared is not only wise, it's something our leaders have instructed us for years to do. However, there's a huge difference between being prepared and being a survivalist/prepper nut case.

I don't imagine you're looking to be to the extreme of some of my examples, but in this neutered world we live in what used to pass for common sense can now be seen as threatening. I don't hide myself away, but I don't advertise myself as a warrior or anything else. Let your actions be bold. Let your appearance be humble.