People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

[mes5464]

I have looked into tmac's idea about the paper notes backed by hard currency, and I have the same fear that Fairminded voiced. How can we make sure that the bank doesn't issue more notes than there are deposits?

I know Jason listed some valid concerns about issuing a new currency. In my heart, I think the only way that the new currency will work is if Utah issues it. As a state I think we can overcome Jason's concerns. If the county tried it alone, I do think TPTB will try to crush us. But, I believe Heavenly Father would deliver us if we stand firm in our faith.

To get the thread back on track.

I think we have a lot of great ideas now that we can move forward without and table the alternative currency issue. I think the junk silver can sustain us for years before we will face a problem of not enough silver to circulate.

I vote we move forward with organizing a supply chain to get things started. I think there are some simple things that we can do that would cost a lot.

Example:

Bakery

Members can join the co-operative and commit to producing a given amount of bread based on a fixed recipe. Then the co-op can collect all of the bread loaves and deliver them to the retailer/people's market. Fresh baked bread is delicious and not everyone has the time to bake it themselves. The obstacles are health inspectors. That is were intervention into the county political process will come in. I think if they agree to label the bread as being prepared in a non-inspected kitchen, the health department should shut up and but out.

[mes5464]

An idea came to me.

Dr Jones mentioned the people's market could products other than food goods to help get it started. What if we start selling made-in-america clothing, bed linens, etc? We can buy these goods at first from outside suppliers until we can create a demand for them. In the meantime, we can start cultivating the suppliers to start making these products in-county. I think we could in a short time organize the manufacture of wool goods, like shirts, pajamas, bedding.

What do you think?

[BroJones]

Thanks for helpful comments!

Agreed; Jason:

Despite my previous comments (negative in nature)....I think this is a great exercise in figuring out solutions to our awful situation.

And I agree with Fairminded and Tmac that junk silver realcoins is a great medium of exchange! along with trading/bartering. Nothing illegal with using US-minted coins, is there?

And as fairminded noted, silver is likely to go upp -- heck, its already going up... so get those silver realcoins now, IMHO.

[tmac]

Mes, the bakery idea is a great one. And you have articulated a genuine issue:

The obstacles are health inspectors. That is were intervention into the county political process will come in. I think if they agree to label the bread as being prepared in a non-inspected kitchen, the health department should shut up and but out.

One concern I have at this point is about making too many positive assumptions in terms of state and local government cooperation. I know for a fact that the state is going to insist that any bread, baked products, jams, jellies, or preserved foods, including salsas, canned fruits and vegetables, etc., sold on anything that approaches a commercial basis (unless it is produced by the co-op, only to be consumed by co-op members, and that's not a legal exception, just one that I think might work if it is kept quiet enough) be produced in a commercial, state-inspected kitchen. I've had a quite a bit of experience in that arena, and based on my experience, I am concerned that too many assumptions are being made about political cooperation, etc., just because it's Utah, Sanpete County, Zion, etc. The thing that needs to be understood is that when competition learns that something is going on, they will hound state regulators to do something about it. I've seen enough to know that plenty of opposition can be expected both from commercial competitors, and from the state when it comes to production-related regulations, inspections, requirements, etc. In fact, I'll post something I wrote up about an experience I recently had dealing with the state in a raw milk context that I think you will find to be a fairly good example of what might be expected essentially across the board -- especially in dealing with mid and higher-level regulators. . . . and almost the whole thing happened in Sanpete County.

A Raw Milk Tale
Many people who are interested in healthy, wholesome food and food production have started paying a certain amount of attention to what has come to be known as the “Food Freedom Movement.” The basic underlying premise in the Food Freedom Movement is that individuals should have the freedom and right to choose what kind of food they want to eat, rather than have all their choices dictated by government, big corporate interests, and/or anyone else. Those who pay attention to all this know that raw milk is essentially the cutting edge of this movement.

Being somewhat obsessed with personal liberty and good, healthy, wholesome food, and having grown up on raw milk (and lots of it), this is something I have always been interested in, and I have had quite bit of experience with government regulation generally and governmental abuse and excessive overreaching specifically, including in several different areas of agricultural production. It is in the context of that background that I relate this tale.

I know a young family that owns a small dairy, and direct-markets liquid raw milk, eggs, chicken and beef to their customers. They have done quite well with their enterprise and have essentially gone from zero to sixty in about three years with a rented farm in a reasonably decent location. Based on the customer base, cash flow, and success they have been able to develop in the past year, they recently pulled the trigger, bought a farm and built a new milk barn. Although such production and marketing enterprises will never be completely without challenges, things seemed to be going very well for them.

One of the reasons things had been going so well for them financially is that within the past couple years the state legislature actually loosened the regulatory limitations on raw milk marketing. Previously, raw milk could only be sold on the farm, but according to new statutory revisions, raw milk producers could now also sell their raw milk at other “outlet stores” as long as, among other things, the producers own a controlling interest in the store property OR own a controlling interest in the business enterprise that operates the store where they were selling their milk. One of the secrets to this family’s success has been a concerted marketing effort to open several such sales outlets in a larger and more populous metropolitan area. Although the state had hassled this family from time to time about production-related issues, as far as I knew things seemed to be going real well for them on the marketing front.

Then I got a very concerned phone call. State regulators had suddenly informed them that they had changed their minds and were no longer going to go along with the way this family’s outlet stores were structured. State regulators were now saying that they had to own the real estate and improvements (the store) where they were selling their milk (which was completely cost prohibitive), and had ordered them to stop selling milk at those locations.

In addition, some of their customers were being harassed about their own arrangements for transportation and distribution of milk from the farm. There was a group of customers, for example, who had cooperated on transportation of milk from the on-farm store. Among those customers were owners of a bookstore in a community about 50 miles away. This group of customers had an arrangement among themselves that they would take turns picking up milk at the on-farm store (typically 15-20 gallons), which they would put in coolers with ice, covered with blankets, etc., and go to the parking lot of the bookstore where the other customers in the group would come pick up their own share of the milk, typically in the morning before the bookstore opened for business. A state inspector had somehow gotten wind of this arrangement, and staked-out the bookstore and started harassing both its owners and their customers about what was going on with the milk.

Based on my previous background and experience dealing with abusive governmental situations, they called me wondering if I had any recommendations about what they might do. Although I told them that this was an issue that I was essentially itching to get involved with, my first objective was to simply provide moral support and give them some hope and courage to stand their ground in dealing with the state.

I encouraged them to schedule a meeting with state regulators, top to bottom, and to straightforwardly address their concerns with them. I also recommended that they thoroughly study all applicable laws and administrative rules, and be well prepared for the meeting. Up to that point, they had been relying mostly on what the state told them the law was and what it meant. The wife took the lead on this and was amazingly well organized and prepared for the meeting. She determined, based on her research, that at one point the state regulators had completely changed at least one administrative rule governing production-related inspections, without any due process whatsoever, in response to an innocent inquiry they made to the state. Based on that improper rule change, the state had subsequently temporarily shut down all sales from their dairy on several occasions. She documented all this for the meeting.

I attended the meeting with them. Representing the state were the state deputy commissioner of agriculture, the head of the dairy regulation division, and another mid-level regulator. They wanted to know what my role was. I said that I was there as a friend, but when I said that I was also a retired attorney, their faces turned ashen. The husband reassured them that despite my professional background, I was there mostly as a friend, and it was our mutual intent to discuss what was necessary to have a good working relationship with the state going forward. If I had known in advance what a pit-bull the wife was, I would have realized that my presence was completely unnecessary.

The husband started out by asking about the regulators’ attitudes toward raw milk. They stuttered and stammered and ultimately stated that while they felt that only pasteurized milk was safe, they recognized that there is a small market niche of people who demand the freedom to choose to drink raw if they want to. None of them were willing to say that they thought people ought to be completely deprived of the right to choose, but the head of dairy regulation stated that he didn’t think minor children should be able to make that choice (to drink raw milk), and he didn’t think parents should be able to make that decision for them. “You’re kidding, right?” I thought to myself, “you want to take that choice away from parents and give it to the state?”

After taking a fairly hard stand with respect to raw milk, the state regulators were caught completely off-guard in the rest of the discussion. When they tried to explain their position, their actions, and their regulatory approach, including their administrative rule change(s), they proved that they didn’t even know or understand applicable state statutes and their own administrative rules, and could not reasonably explain their actions. They first tried to bluff their way through it, but were stopped at every turn by the wife with highlighted copies of the rules, including both before and after versions. Next, they started alternately trying to blame each other and play CYA for all their mix-ups.

When we got to the issue of outlet stores, the deputy commissioner of agriculture explained the legislative intent and process whereby the law had been changed, and then confidently stated that according to the new revisions, raw milk producers had to own a controlling interest in the real estate and improvements of any and all outlet stores. We handed him a copy of the law and asked him to read the highlighted sections. He attempted to stop after reading the provision he had already quoted. We said, “keep reading.” When he read “OR own a controlling interest in the business enterprise operating the store,” his face went red and he started stuttering and stammering, and he asserted that perhaps the statue was not completely clear on the issue. I suggested that it sounded pretty clear to me, and that I thought a judge would have a hard time finding otherwise. He said that he would have to get an opinion letter from the Attorney General and get back to us later. (When the AG finally responded, he said the language was self-explanatory).

Based on my experience with government regulators and bureaucrats, none of this was actually very surprising to me. What I have found is that government regulators, whether federal, state or local, often don’t even really know or understand the laws and rules they are charged with administering. But you would seldom know that based on how they act, and what they say and do. In fact, they often state their own personal opinions and paradigms as if they are the law. Consequently, it is necessary to do thorough homework and to gain a clear knowledge and understanding of applicable laws, rather than rely on their interpretations and what they say the law is and what it means. There is nothing wrong with holding government officials accountable, and sending a very clear message, as producers, that we’re not going to be what I call “huffed, puffed and bluffed,” and pushed around.

Although this is a tale involving raw milk, the same principles apply to meat, labor, animal identification and welfare, land use regulations, government grazing permits, and host of other situations. It is never a good idea to make assumptions, including that regulators really even know what they are talking about, or that they are interested in being cooperative. Although it is always a good idea to be friendly and respectful in dealing with them, in most cases it is usually a good idea not to make any assumptions, and to be fully prepared for worst case scenarios -- because it's often fairly hostile territory.

[tmac]

An idea came to me.

Dr Jones mentioned the people's market could products other than food goods to help get it started. What if we start selling made-in-america clothing, bed linens, etc? We can buy these goods at first from outside suppliers until we can create a demand for them. In the meantime, we can start cultivating the suppliers to start making these products in-county. I think we could in a short time organize the manufacture of wool goods, like shirts, pajamas, bedding.

What do you think?

Mes, based on some of the challenges outlined in my forgoing post, I think this is a great idea. In fact, from my perspective it is exactly the right way to go about it -- by that, I mean develop and cultivate the market first, with "bought-in" products. Many producers fail because they don't pay adequate attention to marketing. Based on both my reading and personal experience, I think the best approach is to develop the market(s) first, using other people's products. That also helps to see what actually sells. Too often producers invest a whole bunch of capital in producing something they don't know just how much actual market demand there is for. In that sense, they simply roll the dice and hope for the best. As with virtually all gambling, sometimes it works, but most of the time it doesn't. Consequently, one very good way to hedge the bet is by simply thoroughly testing and/or developing the market first before investing in too much capital and labor-intensive production infrastructure and capacity. And starting out with textile products and other things that are not highly regulated like food products are is probably a great place to start.

[PunaGabe]

BARTER AND TRADE! Good post Dr. Jones thanks!

[mes5464]

Tmac, your raw milk story makes my blood boil.

How effect is regime change with stopping over reaching regulators?

[tmac]

Regime change can have an effect on regulators, but it is not always a silver bullet. In the end, it boils down to changing what the laws and the administrative rules say. If the laws and administrative rules are user-friendly, whether the regulators are or not, you can hold their feet to the fire by simply knowing the law and the rules, and showing them that you will abide by the written rules, but only the actual rules, and not all their personal opinions and paradigms -- if that is what you choose to do. In many contexts I have sought to avoid and circumvent the rules. Sometimes it works, but it's what I call navigating a minefield.

And I don't think any assumptions can be made about regime change. I have been involved in both successful and unsuccessful attempts at local regime change. Regime change is seldom possible without actually doing something significant first. The best approach is to get a viable business model -- a genuine going concern -- up and running to develop credibility. Unless and until something very tangible happens to create credibility, it's all just talk. By their fruits Ye shall know them. Unless and until an effort is in a position to put some viable and tangible fruit(s) on the table, it probably won't be taken very seriously. Most people have a hard time seeing and getting on board of a vision. For most people to get on board, it's got to be something tangible that they can actually see, touch, feel, taste, etc.

Although a good plan can be worth its weight gold, the real merit is not in the plan, but in the execution.

http://www.deseretnews.com/article/7053 ... rawer.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jonesde]

Minted coins and metal-backed notes are not totally without risk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Dollar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Utah law about minted precious metal coins as legal tender is interesting, and provides some tax benefits (businesses don't have to pay an inventory on gold/silver stock, for example) and also allows for banking backed by gold/silver. There was even a group trying to create a bank account based on gold that could be spent with a Visa card by converting to dollars on-the-fly (ie a bank account denominated in ounces of gold, exchanged for USD as needed). There are some really bad articles about this, but interestingly the NY Times has a decent one:

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/30/us/30 ... wanted=all" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[jonesde]

The ideas in this thread are interesting, but why not use less rules instead of more?

IMO there is no need to impose any sort of currency, just encourage non-cash exchanges and people will figure out what to use to balance uneven trades and act as a currency replacement. There are all sorts of thing people could use for this, and if you let people use whatever they want, they'll figure it out. Some will use gold or silver rounds from any mint, some from only well-known national mints, some maybe only US "junk" silver coins.

If you use anything like a currency the DOJ or IRS are likely to get interested. The IRS even has restrictions on exchanges that involve no cash. The IRS mostly cares if you exchange labor for anything (for other labor or for goods; ironic that it's topic 430, BTW):

http://www.irs.gov/taxtopics/tc420.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The IRS also wants reports from barter exchanges (or intermediaries), so to avoid legal constraints you'd want to avoid doing anything that might look like this:

http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/art ... 37,00.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The way I see it, there is no need for additional regulation or policy, especially since it's hard enough to get out from under the existing policy that has been placed upon us. It might be interesting to have encourage people to not use "cash money" (FRNs) for trade, as that at least helps make it difficult to make a case for the value of the items and so on, making it more difficult for govt folks to impose a sales or income or other tax.

The biggest problem with barter seems to be finding out what people have, and what they want. A computer-driven solution could a lot with that. To avoid trouble it would have to be a free service, preferably hosted anonymously, and all users would be encouraged to interact anonymously until actually making a trade.

Each person would have a list of haves and wants associated with an arbitrary ID that is only valid for a short period of time, like maybe one week. No historical data would be kept by the system, and no identifying information. Contact would be mostly by email or interaction with the system through a web browser to maintain have/want lists and to contact others. Eventually direct contact between traders would be needed to make the trade, and that could be done one-on-one or as part of a trade fair or trade meetup sort of event.

Again, for unequal trades people will figure out how to make up the difference. This could be done with generic things like metal coins, or even labour or any other stuff the shorted party might be interested in.

It would be interesting to setup a marketplace with only one policy: trade using Federal Reserve Notes is discouraged. It may also be necessary to be vague about permission to use the place, ie the owner "neither authorizes nor prohibits any activity on the premises, but compliance with the law is encouraged."

It would be good to avoid having people pay for spaces, and keep the place as simple as an unused parking lot or undeveloped lot with some gravel spread out. As soon as a central entity is charging money, the govt has someone to go after and a monetary value to base civil or criminal legal action on.

One thing I haven't looked into is outside a city, is a business license typically required to sell? This is how most cities and towns get people selling in farmers markets, they sell them a temporary business license.

In Utah it IS a criminal offense to do business without any license required by any city, county or state govt:

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_041000.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is a class B misdemeanor, which generally means up to 6 months in jail and up to a $1000 fine. It's also worth noting that the following can increase this penalty and even stack on other penalties:

A penalty can also be enhanced if:

the person committed the crime with two or more other people;
the person used a dangerous weapon on or near a school;
the person committed the crime in the presence of a child;
the person is determined to have committed a hate crime;
the person is determined to be a habitual offender;
the offense was committed while in prison.

In other words, do it multiple times or bring your kids along, and you could be in all sorts of trouble. There are stories of these sorts of ridiculous laws being used in the USA every day...

Other state laws to worry about include:

http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_040600.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_040700.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://le.utah.gov/~code/TITLE76/htm/76_08_040800.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

That said, I'm considering doing just this... improving an empty 2 acre lot I own in a county in Utah that is just outside of a small town, and allow anyone to come trade there for free... and setup tents or whatever they want. If people are thirsty, someone can sell drinks. If people need to poop, someone can haul in some port-a-potties and sell refuse disposal services.

[tmac]

Just a few observations and questions based on Jonesde’s post(s). I have found that his posts are often very insightful. In his posts on this thread, he has described part of the minefield that has to be navigated. First of all, I agree, the KISS principle should always apply – keep it simple stupid. Having said that, although I think there is certainly a place for an alternative currency system, and I think it could be a good idea, I don’t think it should be mandatory, or that that it needs to be very complex. In the kind of alternative market place(s) that we are discussing, I think people should be able and encouraged to to employ straight bartering if they desire, use junk silver, FRN’s or other exchange notes. Even if an alternative currency system were introduced, I think in the early going, during a transitional period, while bridging the gap between theory and reality, that is the way it would have to be, and just see what gains traction, grows legs and evolves.

With respect to an alternative people’s market itself, setting aside the legal and regulatory minefield that may have to be navigated, I have some other questions. Would it be better if it was essentially sponsored by a municipal governmental entity, as many emerging farmers markets are? Or why not have enterprising entrepreneurs in a capitalistic, free market system organize and set things up, and charge a fee for space rental as a viable business enterprise, that would include advertising, promotion, porta-potties, clean-up, food vendors, and everything else that goes with making something like that work? Or, would it really be better if it was just a free essentially “free-for-all” marketplace on a vacant lot made available for something like that, including everything from “pay to drink” to “pay to poop" products and/or services. Personally, I have some reservation about that. First of all, there’s that old saying – “You get what you pay for.” Imagine what a disorganized, free vacant lot market might actually look like and devolve into. I have seen people open up several spots like Jonesde is describing for that kind of enterprise on a pretty simple, low-key, basis, but none of them really grew legs and lasted very long.

I am also aware of several pay-for-space and pay-to-enter swap meets that for whatever reason have essentially evolved into Hispanic Mercados, and for the most part “whites” simply don’t go there any more. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but it’s something to consider and plan for.

I suspect that the law of gravity would have a noticeable effect on “free” markets. While I think the free market scenario on a vacant lot will work and even just naturally and spontaneously happen and evolve in a TEOTWAWKI situation, I’m not sure how well it will play right now. Of course, as with all things, one can just wait until S does HTF and then scramble around and try to make it happen at that point. But from my perspective, it would be better to try to put something in place and develop a venue that will work now, in the current economy and business and political environment, and already be in place for when those sorts of alternative markets will become the new mainstream norm for transacting business.

Of course a good, well-organized and operated co-op could set-up, organize and manage all that, and even do it for “free,” but what would be the incentive? Public service? Or, just to create a market venue to, among other things, sell its own goods and services? At some point, it looks to me like for something to really gain traction and grow legs, there’s got to be a profit motive and financial incentive. If there’s no financial incentive, including sufficient income to really try to promote and do it “right,” I question its viability.

With those kinds of markets, I also think it’s kind of a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” scenario. If there aren’t enough customers/consumers, vendors won’t come (at least for very long), and if there aren’t enough vendors and products, etc., not very many customers/consumers will come. So, there needs to be a healthy balance between the two, and it’s all about critical mass. If such a market can’t reach a reasonable critical mass of both vendors/products and customers/consumers quickly enough to start gaining traction, and growing legs, they are often fairly short-lived.

Which brings me back to the example of Jonesde’s free, vacant lot market where you can buy a drink and pay to poop. Although vendors may set up and make those products and services available, if customers/consumers don’t come in sufficient numbers to make it worth their while, they won’t stick around for very long.

So, in terms of critical mass, I think all of that leads to another element of the equation – population base. From my perspective, at this point in time, until things really start to change, gravitating more toward alternative markets, in any given population base, there will only be X percentage of people who will really be interested in and looking for this sort of thing. At this point in time it is probably a pretty small percentage – probably somewhere around 1-2%. Which means, if the general population base you’re dealing with is say 5000 people (say North Sanpete area), then at 1-2% you’ve got between 50-100 people who are interested in being involved. If there are 100 vendors and only 50 customers, there’s a problem. That’s why proximity to bigger population bases make it much easier to reach the required critical mass to grow legs. If the population base is 50,000+, generating a customer base of somewhere between 500 and 1000, it’s a lot more doable. Until conditions really start to change, significantly increasing the percentages of the overall population base that will support and patronize these sorts of enterprises, I think it may be necessary to start out in venues that have closer proximity to larger population bases.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

[Fairminded]

Of course a good, well-organized and operated co-op could set-up, organize and manage all that, and even do it for “free,” but what would be the incentive? Public service? Or, just to create a market venue to, among other things, sell its own goods and services? At some point, it looks to me like for something to really gain traction and grow legs, there’s got to be a profit motive and financial incentive. If there’s no financial incentive, including sufficient income to really try to promote and do it “right,” I question its viability.

A good point, but I think in this case selling its own goods and services IS a motivation. With the government heavily regulating things like raw milk, baked goods, and where and how you can sell things, I imagine people would get into the co-op not only to find a venue to sell things that would otherwise be prohibitive in a government controlled fashion, but to buy things for the same reason. I know if I could get access to things like raw milk, fresh eggs, and locally raised and processed meat, as well as baked goods that weren't made with white flour and processed past all usefulness, I'd frequent the co-op just for that. As well things the government keeps a heavy thumb on, like firearms and gold and silver, could be sold or traded there without having to resort to looking up ads on KSL and doing private transactions or going to a government regulated vendor and having the sale or purchase documented.

Profit isn't the only motivation for doing things. Someone with unused land and things to sell and things he wanted to buy could volunteer that land for the purpose. He could also provide modest services at a small fee for some compensation, like selling snacks or providing services as an intermediary or broker for deals. Renting spaces and having a more formalized setting could cause many of the problems you describe rather than solving them.

After all, the name itself is co-op. People cooperating for a common goal.

[mes5464]

Just a few observations and questions based on Jonesde’s post(s). I have found that his posts are often very insightful. In his posts on this thread, he has described part of the minefield that has to be navigated. First of all, I agree, the KISS principle should always apply – keep it simple stupid. Having said that, although I think there is certainly a place for an alternative currency system, and I think it could be a good idea, I don’t think it should be mandatory, or that that it needs to be very complex. In the kind of alternative market place(s) that we are discussing, I think people should be able and encouraged to to employ straight bartering if they desire, use junk silver, FRN’s or other exchange notes. Even if an alternative currency system were introduced, I think in the early going, during a transitional period, while bridging the gap between theory and reality, that is the way it would have to be, and just see what gains traction, grows legs and evolves.

I have already conceded the point on the currency. And I like the idea that people should be free to exchange in what ever way they want.

...
Would it be better if it was essentially sponsored by a municipal governmental entity, as many emerging farmers markets are? Or why not have enterprising entrepreneurs in a capitalistic, free market system organize and set things up, and charge a fee for space rental as a viable business enterprise, that would include advertising, promotion, porta-potties, clean-up, food vendors, and everything else that goes with making something like that work?
...

I am writing from South Carolina. Here in the Upstate (western portion of the state) we have municipal farmers markets, entrepreneur flea markets, and free-for-alls. This is already a popular event in our region and vendors travel around from market to market each week. I do not like the municipal markets. They have too many rules and there is always someone walking around looking over your shoulder.

I am also aware of several pay-for-space and pay-to-enter swap meets that for whatever reason have essentially evolved into Hispanic Mercados, and for the most part “whites” simply don’t go there any more. I’m not saying that’s good or bad, but it’s something to consider and plan for.

We have lots of minorities in our markets. They tend to be customers more than merchants. Not only do we have the black community participating, but our area has a very large hispanic community. I haven't ever observed a problem.

I suspect that the law of gravity would have a noticeable effect on “free” markets. ... spontaneously happen and evolve in a TEOTWAWKI situation, I’m not sure how well it will play right now. ... But from my perspective, it would be better to try to put something in place and develop a venue that will work now
...

Like I said above these have been thriving in the mountains of South Carolina for decades and have picked up in the last few years. This region of the state has always been low income and jobs have been leaving at a rapid pace. People here are already feeling a pinch from the economy and the markets have been in place for years. There hasn't been the spontaneous appears, they were always here. People who just grew vegetables out of tradition (their parents always did it) are now producing more to make a buck. My area has been in recession forever.

Of course a good, well-organized and operated co-op could set-up, organize and manage all that, and even do it for “free,” but what would be the incentive? Public service? Or, just to create a market venue to, among other things, sell its own goods and services? At some point, it looks to me like for something to really gain traction and grow legs, there’s got to be a profit motive and financial incentive. If there’s no financial incentive, including sufficient income to really try to promote and do it “right,” I question its viability.

I really don't know the answer to this. I know that the flea markets we have occur ever week. Some twice a week. People from all walks of life talk about going to them. I know some of them are for profit, so you pay a fee for a stall, and they are still going strong. I think most people go to the markets looking for a deal, or something that is hard to find. I think some people like to haggle over the price so they go to the flea markets to negotiate, something they can't do in a big box store. I also think some people like the festive feeling. It is kind of like going to a fair sometimes. These are quick things though. Usually all of the markets are closed by lunch time. People will come out really early (dawn) and all the shoppers have seen what there is and are gone my noon.

With those kinds of markets, I also think it’s kind of a “which came first, the chicken or the egg” scenario.
...

I do think we will have to start small and slow. I might buy a few shirts, jeans, etc. and go sit out of the morning. If that happens consistently enough, I think attendance will pick up over time.

...
So, in terms of critical mass, I think all of that leads to another element of the equation – population base. From my perspective, at this point in time, until things really start to change, gravitating more toward alternative markets, in any given population base, there will only be X percentage of people who will really be interested in and looking for this sort of thing. At this point in time it is probably a pretty small percentage – probably somewhere around 1-2%. Which means, if the general population base you’re dealing with is say 5000 people (say North Sanpete area), then at 1-2% you’ve got between 50-100 people who are interested in being involved. If there are 100 vendors and only 50 customers, there’s a problem. That’s why proximity to bigger population bases make it much easier to reach the required critical mass to grow legs. If the population base is 50,000+, generating a customer base of somewhere between 500 and 1000, it’s a lot more doable. Until conditions really start to change, significantly increasing the percentages of the overall population base that will support and patronize these sorts of enterprises, I think it may be necessary to start out in venues that have closer proximity to larger population bases.

Just my thoughts FWIW.

I don't know about the 2% or not. Google reports that Sanpete County had a population of 25,520 in 2008, while my county Oconee, had 71.274 for the same year. We may have had success just because of the larger population. I do know that there are many people that will travel to other counties to participate in their flea markets. People will drive 40 miles to go to the Anderson County farmers market. The Pickens County flea market (it is called the Jockey Lot) has the same thing. It may be that people will travel to attend the Sanpete County people's market.

[BroJones]

Good ideas and comments! Jonesde, Tmac, Mes5464, Fairminded and all-- very good points.

I agree that the profit motive is just part of the equation, hopefully not the most important part either... There is a health food store in No Sanpete that sells locally grown EGGS from their refrigerator. Those eggs taste SO much better than the sanitized eggs at the grocery store down the street. They cost more, about 1 FRN more per dozen, but I don't buy grocery store eggs any more.

A brother in town used to sell raw cow's milk -- absolutely delicious! Maybe a little more than the sanitized grocery store chalk-water. But so much more tasty! Unfortunately, the cow dried up... so we're looking for an alternative. I don't buy grocery store "milk" either (unless we have visitors who want it).

Down the road, a fellow sells free-range beef... delicious! Another brother is famous for his elk meat. He doesn't "sell it", but he has these pot-luck dinners that are fabulous. I guess that's a form of bartering, isn't it?

If'n we get freedom-energy devices working, I'd sure prefer to use some sort of free-trade system to get them out to people, worldwide is the BIG challenge. They would have to be of simple design and produced locally; that's the goal I have... At first anyway, these will be "research devices" and probably not submitted for UL approval nor for patents. Did you know that the US govt has a policy NOT to consider patents for "free energy" devices? see attached.

Does any one find it odd that govt in the US has become almost synonymous with "suppression" of free markets and innovation and with "cover-up" of its own misdeeds?

[mes5464]

Dr Jones, would you mind if I sent you a private message? I have a question.

[BroJones]

Dr Jones, would you mind if I sent you a private message? I have a question.

No prob; my email is not a secret -- [email protected]. I'm pretty sure it is monitored, though :-s

[tmac]

A good point, but I think in this case selling its own goods and services IS a motivation. . . . Profit isn't the only motivation for doing things. . . . After all, the name itself is co-op. People cooperating for a common goal.

I agree with all of the above. But just to clarify, it is a for-profit co-op right? One of the reasons to cooperate and work together is to generate a profit (fixed it), and help members make a living, right? Just want to make sure that I'm understanding the objectives.

Otherwise, just a couple additional observations, particularly about Sanpete County. In my entire life experience, the family I know of who is probably the most spiritual, Zion-like, and already doing a lot of this more than anyone else I have ever known, and looking for others to work with on the same basis, is the family I wrote about in the raw milk tale. They started their enterprise in Sanpete County, after moving there from the Wasatch Front 3-4 years ago. They recently moved from Sanpete County (in fact I spent the week before Christmas helping them finish their new milk barn, and a few days after Christmas getting moved, and making the transition in their new location). They didn't move because Sanpete was bad or anything, per se. They just didn't see a way to move forward in Sanpete County, and felt like they were both directed, and that a way was prepared and opened for them to go somewhere else. In addition, though, in the process of the numerous discussions we have now had, they made a couple other observations about Sanpete County. They thought land prices were still considerably over-inflated from a production standpoint, and aside from the Gunnison Valley, which although is in Sanpete County, is not normally considered part of the Sanpete Valley per se, not a single irrigation company in the entire valley has any significant water storage or is considered anything close to drought resistant. They also felt like the regulatory environment in Sanpete County, including everything from planning, zoning and building inspection, to the tax assessor and attitudes toward agriculture and greenbelt, were more hostile than they thought they ought to be. And none of their observations were necessarily inconsistent with my own experiences and observations in that regarding Sanpete County as a whole. I do recognize, however, that Spring City is and always has been a very lovely place. I spent almost 10 years of my life growing up just down the road in Chester.

On the other hand, within just the past 6 months, there has been a brutal double murder of an older couple in Mt. Pleasant, a six shotgun blast shoot-up of a home in Chester while the occupants were watching TV inside, and the indictment of a high profile Ft. Green family, including a Snow College Bishop, for a multi-million dollar Ponzi scheme. Not to mention the failure of the Bank of Ephraim, a long-standing locally-owned bank, 5-6 years ago based on embezzlement. And that's just kind of the highlights. My family owns several farms in the Sanpete Valley, and property crime and theft have always been a serious issue. In the community and on the farms and ranches where I now live no one ever locks anything up, and nobody can remember the last time anything was stolen, whereas in Sanpete County not even strong locks seem capable of preventing such theft. My parents live straight West of the temple in Manti. There house has been broken into at least three times. They now have security doors on everything. The last time, their strong box, including all their cash, silver, and important docs, etc., were stolen, as well as credit cards, etc., and a bunch of other stuff. They found everything of no value, including the broken strong box scattered across the neighborhood as it had been discarded along the burglar(s)' exit route. Just want to make sure that everyone is fully aware of all sides of that equation.

[BroJones]

I don't mind the reminder that Sanpete Co is not perfect, tmac. But I found this typo (?) of yours amusing:

One of the reasons to cooperate and work together is to generate a prophet,

I think you meant "profit".

I should also add that the "awakened" numbers in Sanpete Co are growing rather rapidly, I find.

For example, last week at Sunday School in the other ward (there are now three wards in Spring City plus the south end of Mt Pleasant) -- Jack Monnette spoke on EMP. It was an eye-opener!
Jack lives with his wife in Spring now. Reminds me I need to get over there and get some Redmond salt from him... Some of you know that Jack wrote a novel re: EMP, as well as "Awakening to our awful situation" (2 volumes). That ward is having a several-week series on preparedness in the last days... I plan to attend. Our ward had such a series of Sunday School classes last year -- very well done.

Home gardening is big around here. Also, chickens, goats, sheep, horses.

[tmac]

Thanks for catching my typo Doc. No question, there is no such thing as perfect place. And, undoubtedly, Sanpete County is a great place over all. My only concern is that some people genuinely do believe that Sanpete County is perfect (my mother was one of them -- she thought Manti was the most perfect place on earth until her house started getting broken into, and then she and my dad were called to serve a senior mission in Nauvoo -- then she learned that Manti was only the second most perfect place on earth). Obviously, you recognize that it isn't perfect, and that no other place is either (including where I live). But I find discussions about marriage somewhat analogous to situations like this -- do plenty of due diligence, and go into it with eyes wide open. It would be great to be surrounded by guys like you and Jack Monnett. On my end, though, I am thankful to have the Pratts and others nearby. In the end, aside from NJ, Zion will be more of a spiritual state than a physical place -- wherever the pure in heart dwell.

[Jason]

Just a little weeding and then the establishment of the government structure set up by Moses (covered by Cleon Skousen in Cleansing of America)....and 95% of our problems would be taken care of quickly and at the lowest level possible (by friends and neighbors)....the other 5% might go up several notches but would be resolved effectively as well.

The old government has to lose all its power (or go away completely) before any realistic talk can honestly be considered about replacement currencies/governments imo-fwiw....the Revolutionary War started on currency issues....

[Fairminded]

Sorry, tmac, I'm afraid I didn't do very well presenting my point. My main thought was that for the farmer's market the profit for those involved could come from what they produce and the sales they make, with less emphasis on making money off the location itself. IE nobody's sitting back charging fees to vendors, parking fees, or other things that would discourage attendance. As long as someone is willing to allow the market on their land, it seems to me the location is the smallest concern.

A bigger concern would be finding enough people who produce desirable things, finding enough people to buy those things, and making sure they have a safe, friendly environment in which to do so. And I think it goes without saying that to keep it safe and friendly keeping the government from interfering is a must.

I agree that Sanpete isn't perfect. For one thing local corruption is definitely in evidence. I had some experience with trying to work with real estate in Ephraim, and ran into a lot of stonewalling from the city. Coincidentally, a few members of the city council owned student housing complexes and didn't seem keen on the prospect of competition.

Not to mention the fact that in spite of reasonably low crime rate every small town has its shiny new police car pulling folks over and giving tickets to pay the bills on the large fancy city halls and courthouses. I passed one on my way to the Post Office just a few weeks ago, and oddly enough the sight of that car sirens blazing while the officer wrote out a ticket to a neighbor didn't make me feel much safer.

Not that I'm bitter.

[tmac]

My main thought was that for the farmer's market the profit for those involved could come from what they produce and the sales they make, with less emphasis on making money off the location itself. IE nobody's sitting back charging fees to vendors, parking fees, or other things that would discourage attendance. As long as someone is willing to allow the market on their land, it seems to me the location is the smallest concern.

A bigger concern would be finding enough people who produce desirable things, finding enough people to buy those things, and making sure they have a safe, friendly environment in which to do so. And I think it goes without saying that to keep it safe and friendly keeping the government from interfering is a must.

Good point(s)! . . . and I completely agree.

I've said this in similar contexts before, but anyone who is really serious about doing this, and has the time and resources should be in Elm Mott, Texas on Labor Day Weekend for the Sorghum Festival or Thanksgiving Weekend for the Homestead Fair sponsored by Homestead Heritage -- a group that is already doing everything that has been described very impressively and successfully (in my opinion).

http://www.homesteadheritage.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.homesteadcraftfair.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I agree that Sanpete isn't perfect. For one thing local corruption is definitely in evidence. I had some experience with trying to work with real estate in Ephraim, and ran into a lot of stonewalling from the city. Coincidentally, a few members of the city council owned student housing complexes and didn't seem keen on the prospect of competition.

Not to mention the fact that in spite of reasonably low crime rate every small town has its shiny new police car pulling folks over and giving tickets to pay the bills on the large fancy city halls and courthouses. I passed one on my way to the Post Office just a few weeks ago, and oddly enough the sight of that car sirens blazing while the officer wrote out a ticket to a neighbor didn't make me feel much safer.

Unfortunately, it's everywhere. And when it comes to government, I haven't necessarily found Sanpete County (or any place else) to have any corner on the market when it comes to virtue, liberty, freedom, accountability or constitutional uprightness -- if it did, what would be the challenge? Obviously, that's one of the tasks that lies ahead.

Fairminded, you've talked something about your background before, and it has stuck in my mind. I just want you to know that I have been impressed with many of your posts, and I can tell that this whole concept is something that really kind of "spins your wheels." That's exciting to see. I'm going to post something that may be apropos to the situation -- especially for the young bucks in the discussion.

[tmac]

Fairminded, this article talks about some groups where you might find yourself in some very good company.

Young urban farmers provide reasons to believe
by Jim Gerrish (Stockman Grass Farmer, Jan. 2012)

I have been going to conferences for over 30 years now encompassing a wide variety of topics,
mostly related to agriculture, resource, or food. Of course, if we are serious about eating healthy
food, then we must also be serious about resources and agriculture. And if we are serious about
agriculture, then we must be serious about food. And if we don’t take care of all of our resources we
will have even greater food issues than we have now. It is all so interrelated we really cannot
separate issues of food, agriculture, and natural resources.

A lot of you know Dawn and I are foodies on this end of the thread and many of you also know we
are strongly involved in the alternative ag and food sector. I don’t get to go to many conferences that
involve serious natural resource management, alternative agriculture themes, and the Real Food
movement all in one place. That’s where we went last November. The venue was the Quivira
Coalition 10 Annual Conference in Albuquerque NM. It easily ranks in the top 5 conferences I have
attended over the last 32 years. It gives me reason to believe in the future of farming and ranching,
food vs. commodities, and the youth of America. For more information, check out their website at
http://www.quiviracoalition.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and look at the program for the 2011 Annual Conference.

I opened the conference with a one-day workshop with the theme of Ranching in the 21st Century
attended by 270 people, about half of whom were under 30 years of age which is pretty unusual for
an ag conference these days. Most of them didn’t look like your typical farm kids. While that might
seem unremarkable to some of you, put it in this context. The average age of farmers and ranchers
in the US is 58 while the average age of beef producers is 63. We are not a healthy industry. After
years of farm and ranch parents telling their kids to go to town and get a job, we are about out of the
chance for the next generation returning to the farm or ranch.

But into the fray step a bunch of enthusiastic punk urban farmers and ranchers. I got a lot of thank
you’s from many of them for my recent columns in SGF discussing appropriate education for
beginning farmers and ranchers. I had advocated basic liberal arts education and that is from where
most of this group has come. These guys and gals are coming from a different background than
young people who grew up on farms and ranches.

Visit this website for exciting information on this movement: http://www.thegreenhorns.net" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;. There are
over 7,000 young farmers and ranchers in this group which has only existed for about four years. If
they had told me this group had 700 members, I would have been impressed. This is the Facebook,
Twitter, and other social media farming movement. They have barn raisings, tree plantings, chicken
killings, and all kinds of other old fashioned community farming activities called together across
cyberspace just like the hoods in Philadelphia call together spontaneous riots.

They are involved in everything from rooftop gardens in big cities ( http://rooftopfarms.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) to
going back to the country and living with Grandma or Aunt Irene and taking over the family farm
( http://www.masumoto.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ). From a Vietnamese college student fighting for food justice to city
kids doing on-farm butchering, it was an inspirational group. What makes me even more excited for
the future of pasture-based farming is almost none of them are vegetarians. As Severine von
Tschaner Fleming, founder of the Greenhorns, said in her presentation, “Nothing sexier than a hot
young man butchering a hog.” Maybe not her exact words, but the meaning was clear. These young
people are up to their elbows in working with the land and livestock and they’re excited about it.
Severine’s presentation at Quivira may have been the best I have ever seen at any conference anywhere
in the world. One after another, these young people got up and told their stories and presented their visions
for the future of American agriculture. It’s not one a lot of people in mainstream agriculture have seen or
heard before. Farm Bureau and NCBA might not like it, but those organizations are not providing
the regeneration of agriculture and the repopulating of rural areas. We need new blood in this
industry and here is an opportunity for ag revitalization.

Too many of my generation (the over 55 crowd) believe kids today are lazy, selfish, and all they
want to do is play video games and watch TV. What I heard from these kids is they are tired of
convenience, having everything easy, and no interface with the real world. They are not afraid to get
their hands dirty, but they are also not interested in a subsistence existence. This is not the ‘back to
earth’ movement of the 1960s and 70s. I saw enough of that earlier movement to know this is
something completely different. They want to make a good living off the land, not just survive. They
are into product development and diversification, aggressive marketing, and a very capitalistic
approach to farming, but with social justice as a core belief.

As a result of the three days we spent with this group, Dawn and I got fully recharged and inspired
to continue to run the good race and fight the good fight. I finally have reason to believe the future
of American agriculture is a little brighter than I thought it might be. We’re already planning to see
them again next year. Maybe you should do likewise.

Real food from real people. We love it and encourage you to visit some of the links I have listed.

[Fairminded]

Thanks for that, tmac. I agree that is exciting to see a younger generation wanting to leave the cities and get back to a simpler and more productive lifestyle. To be honest I can't stand big cities like the Utah Valley or Salt Lake areas. From increasingly ludicrous traffic to winter inversions, to watching people walk around eyes downward, barely acknowledging those around them, it just doesn't work for me.

I've mentioned in another post that as soon as heating and air conditioning became widespread people by and large abandoned the old practical houses most well-adapted to the local climate in favor of the poorly insulated aboveground frame and wallboard, completely forgetting all the learning of the past in favor of completely relying on current technology. If heating and air conditioning were to go away along with power, their situations would be much worsened, and they'd either have to relearn what previous generations knew or find those who had that knowledge.

I bring this up because I view first world countries' shift to heavily populated urban environments in much the same way. As soon as we got the ability to cheaply mass produce and ship necessary items, we threw all our previous learning and stable lifestyles out the window and became completely dependent on it. Since our current lifestyles are so heavily dependent on abundant fossil fuel energy, any failure of supply would essentially bring us back to pioneer day living. Only we no longer have the skills to live that way, so many, many people in urban cities would find their situations dire in only a few weeks. Their highly technical specialized educations wouldn't help too much in the general day to day necessities.

So it's heartening to see younger people leaving the cities and learning to farm and ranch and butcher with their own hands. I have a feeling in a true collapse they'll find themselves in a much better situation, with skills they'll need to not only survive but prosper.

I'm going to look further into the organization, thanks for providing the link.

[tmac]

Fairminded, I'm not exactly sure how it fits this discussion (although it may really fit), and I didn't say anything at the time, but your post (on another thread) about underground construction and passive solar design was actually one of the ones I really liked. I couldn't agree more with all the points you made. UG/PS construction is something that I'm likewise very interested in and have been for some time. I was very impressed with your presentation of the information. Sounds like you've studied it quite a bit and know what you're talking about.