People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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BroJones
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People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by BroJones »

Farmer's Markets or People's Markets (PM) have taken place for millenia, around the world. This form of marketing brings locally-produced products to families without much need for "the system" of long-distance trucking, governmental restrictions, and Wal-marts. For those who may wish to follow Joseph's and Brigham's counsel regarding home production and approaching Zion, this alternative type of marketing may be just the ticket. (See attached from the Journal of Discourses for example). We look to being locally independent and reliant, to getting to know and support our neighboring families.

Bartering may figure into variants of PM such as flea markets and swap meets. In our town, there is a fellow who sells "junk silver" (old silver-bearing US coins) and encourages there use as "alternative money" (to Federal Reserve Debt Notes). One fellow in town that I know of accepts the silver coins as payment; others probably would if asked.

People's Markets are an age-old tradition world wide; this from wiki:
Britain's market traders

As the first real form of retailing,not a great deal has actually changed. Many people have tried their hand at Market trading and some have made vast fortunes, Marks and Spencers, Tesco, New Look all started from a barrow or stall. The life is tough and the hours can be very long but there are certain families who have been involved with the industry,for many generations and usually linked to the same trade or line. Halkets is one of these, based around Stoke on Trent,are famous for selling "pots" (china and pottery) at markets and fairs up and down the country. Benjamin is also another old family name connected with the markets and fairs,these seem to still operate around the London and Oxford areas and are involved with the selling of small leather goods,handbags and lugggage.

[edit] Greece
Main article: Laiki agora

Street markets in Greece are called laikes agores (λαϊκές αγορές) in plural, or λαϊκή αγορά (laiki agora) in singular, meaning "people's market". They are very common all over Greece, including the capital, Athens, and its suburbs. Regular (weekly) morning markets sell mostly fresh produce from farming cooperatives - fruit, vegetables, fish and flowers/plants. Some household items and prepared foods are often available.

Annual street markets (panigyri(a)) occur around churches on the day of their patron saint. These take place in the evenings and have a more festive character, often involving attractions and food stalls. The goods sold range from clothing and accessories to household items, furniture, toys and trinkets. Athens also has several bazaars/enclosed markets.

[edit] Hong Kong

See: markets in Hong Kong

Street markets in Hong Kong are held all the days except few traditional Chinese holidays like Chinese New Year. Stalls opened at two sides of a street were required to have licenses issued by the Hong Kong Government. In Hong Kong there are street markets of various kinds such as fresh foods, clothing, cooked foods, flowers, and even electronics. The earliest form of markets is known as Gaa si. ...

[edit] London

See: markets in London

Some examples of street markets include Berwick Street Market, Broadway Market, Camden Market, East Street Market and Portobello Road Market. There are many markets in London just a few mentioned above but the most popular is Borough Market which sell most fresh produce as well as having a bakery.

[edit] North America

Farmers' markets are usually held outdoors, in public spaces, where local farmers can sell produce to the public.[1] They are increasing in the United States and Canada.

[edit] Turkey

Street markets are called shortly pazar in Turkish and usually named after the name of the day since they are only installed at around 05:00 on that specific day and ended on same day around 18:00, in every week. Every district in Turkey has its own open market where people can choose and buy from a very wide range of products, from fresh fruits and vegetables to clothing, from traditional white cheese (which some people may consider feta-like) to household items.
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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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My heart aches to do this in Utah. I can see success if we start cooperatives and start manufacturing the things we need. There are many quotes about home production, but I can't see myself ever growing enough cotton of my own, to turn into linen of my own, to make into a t-shirt of my own. But, the Saints as a community can develop industry that will do this on a scale that will allow all of us to be clothed, warm, fed, etc. I feel I have been directed to move back to Utah this year. I hope to become a part of a rebirth of self-reliance in the state with LDS forming businesses to employee people once again.

I also see the development of a local currency based in silver as critical to success. I think we will have to be brave because we will have to refuse to allow the Federal Government the right to tax it. I feel that will be necessary to so we can finally stop funding wars, abortions, and other unholy practice of the Gadiantons!

I have faith that we can achieve it. And I am willing to sacrifice to be apart of it.

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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This is an exciting prospect. I think an excellent place to start something like this would be where people are already producing things and selling to their neighbors. I have a few neighbors who raise goats, cows, and chickens, and they sell the raw milk and eggs to more than a few people. Finding the people who make an effort to produce raw food and getting them on board would be great, because they've already got a good incentive to involve themselves in a people's market: their customer base would remain the same, and they'd be making a solid contribution to any market.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Doc, thanks for starting this thread. This is subject matter that I have studied and been very interested in for a long time. The marketing end of it falls into a something that I call Alternative Market Theory. I think it has great potential -- and is what the future holds. I have actually been working on a plan, both production and marketing-wise, to start putting something into place in what I think could be a fairly interesting/promising venue. I think it is interesting. I would rather not discuss it completely in the open at this point, but if anyone is interested in further discussions that I hope will lead to something meaningful actually happening, send me a PM. I would be glad to discuss.

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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Glad to see the interest is high -- thanks for comments. More thoughts after I get back from Home Teaching! ;)

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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In our Sanpete valley, there is a lot of interest in starting up a better "Farmers' Market" or People's Market than we have had in the past -- and with more items than just veggies and fruits.

I learned that in my town of Spring City, the town guvmint wanted more revenue from fees etc.... which has prompted some of us to seek a spot for the PM outside the town, in the county. There are actually two guys with proposed spots -- Keith C and David... will leave the names at that for now.

And the idea of using pre-1965 silver-bearing coins (hereafter "realcoins") met with approval from all that I home taught this evening and all others I've discussed this with-- I count ten supporters so far and none opposed. It's like having your own currency (some communities have gone to that actually) but without the pain of printing your own currency -- and with the benefit that the value of each coin is stamped right on the coin!! Any sales tax would/should I think be based on that value.

Note that real coins have silver content such that a real50cent piece is worth 5 times as much as a realdime, and twice as much as a realquarter! See, these coins fit what is described in the US Constitution of having money in the US based on silver (or gold). See the attached table, values for today. (I would not use the old nickel, since its value is not 1/10th that of a real50cent piece -- just realdimes, realquarters and real50centpieces. )

If a person lacks realcoins, he can buy them at the fair, near spot price value (for silver).
These become the Constitutional currency for the Peoples Market... along with IMO silver 1-ounce rounds (valued right at spot). Thus, a dozen fresh eggs would be a dime (say) and home-grown tomatoes might cost 2lbs for a dime, etc.

Some communities are passing local laws that anything made and sold in the community and not transported out of state --should be free from needing FDA inspection or approval/meddling. We should seek such a law for Utah... IMO.
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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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PS -- the silver-bearing realcoins I bought about 2 weeks ago have gone up just about 10% in value in 2 weeks! I was able to buy them locally in Spring City at spot value.

But the price of eggs would remain the same, you see, as the FedReserveNotes drop in value; that is, one realdime for a dozen eggs. Also, someone with tomatoes (for example) could trade for eggs (i.e., barter) without the exchange of money at all.

See how this works? and how we soon become more and more independent of the Fed? and help each other out LOCALLY?

Yikes -- I gotta get some sleep!

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mes5464
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Dr. Please provide a reference for the quote you uploaded in the original post. I would love to know who said it, when, and in what context.

Thanks

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Doc, I'm interested to hear more about the fees, etc., that the Spring City town government wanted to impose on the market there. As in virtually all aspects of our lives, government regulation and taxation -- unfortunately even including by local governments -- is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. Your alternative currency idea is an interesting one. This whole discussion seems fairly ironic/coincidental. Based on some of Mes' earlier posts, etc., that got me thinking, I had been outlining some ideas for a local, alternative currency system to use in just such an alternative market venue that would probably include a farmers market, a swap meet (both people's markets), as well as a thrift store, and a couple other anchor type shops selling local production items. A business associate of mine and I have been scoping out venues in Utah county to launch something like this, but have always thought that we ought to go into it with the idea of working the bugs out of the business model, etc., and then duplicate the model in other locations. To that end, based on my own connections and roots in Sanpete County, we have also had our eye on a possible venue in Sanpete County in a pretty good location that could offer year-round protection from the elements.

My own perspective has been that although these types of markets have been exceptions to the general mainstream rules of commerce in the U.S. (and especially in Utah, etc.), interest in them is growing, and when SHTF, I think they will become the norm. Consequently, like many things along the preparedness line, I have been of the opinion that it would be worthwhile to get something started and up and running in advance, with the long-term scenario in mind.

Based on our acquaintance on LDSFF, several years ago I met Jason, and over the course of the last couple years, we have gotten to know each other fairly well personally, and have worked on some projects together. We recently had our own conversation about all this, and he said that one of his biggest concerns, in the SHTF/melt-down scenario, would be security for such a market. I recommended that he watch the "Black Jack" episode of the Jericho series. Not that it provides ideal answers, security-wise, but it is interesting, and also depicts the kind of role those kinds of markets will have under those conditions. I actually think the Jericho series is fairly realistic overall in many of those respects. Unfortunately, there is plenty of soap-opera like relationship non-sense, especially in the first season. But I do think that it can help get the mental wheels turning.
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BroJones
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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mes5464 wrote:Dr. Please provide a reference for the quote you uploaded in the original post. I would love to know who said it, when, and in what context.

Thanks
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... g8yF3nR7Nw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Better: http://pt.fairmormon.org/Journal_of_Discourses/9/13" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Journal of Discourses by Daniel H. Wells
Volume 9, BUILDING UP OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD—HOME MANUFACTURES Prosperity of Zion, &c.→
Discourse by President Daniel H. Wells, made at Logan City, September 10th, 1861. REPORTED BY G. D. WATT.

(Online document scan Journal of Discourses, Volume 9) page 59 ff
59
I appear before you this morning with grateful feelings to our Heavenly Father for the privilege we mutually enjoy in beholding the dawning light of so good a day for Israel.

Brother Kimball, when he bade me good-bye, as I started from the city on this visit, wished me to say to the people for him, "God bless them!" and brother Brigham blesses the people continually; our Father in heaven blesses them; the heavens are full of blessings for them. Why, then, should we not be the most happy of all people? While the earth is full of turmoil and strife, the people in these mountains dwell in peace, and are blessed with unparallelled [unparalleled] prosperity. They have that joy and peace, that satisfaction and quietness that proceeds from God, which could not be enjoyed in any other part of the world, or among any other people under the most favourable circumstances.

We have been called together from different parts of the world for the great and special work of building up the kingdom of God upon the earth, to establish a nucleus of righteousness from which shall radiate every great, good, and holy principle to all parts of the habitable world. It is our privilege to bear an important part in this great work. The Gospel of salvation has been promulgated—has reached our ears where we dwelt among different nations and countries, and has brought us to these mountain regions. And now what is our duty? Shall we be like the world from which we have been gathered out? If this is our intention, we might as well have stayed in our native country, where we could have ripened for destruction as well as here. But if we have essayed to be servants of the Most High, to be his children, to be his chosen and peculiar people, and for which purpose we are gathered out from among the Gentile nations, let us not do as they do, but let us do according to the high behest of Heaven, who has given us an appointment, and called us forth to build up his kingdom in these last days. Let us follow implicitly the instructions of those whom God has appointed to guide our minds and direct our steps; or, to use other words, let us believe our religion and faithfully live it. Do we believe fully that God our Father has appointed men whom he influences day by day to lead forth his people, and direct them in all their spiritual and temporal labours? and do we so order our course as to correspond with the instructions given us? Or do we suppose we can entirely take our own way in temporal matters, according to the traditions of our fathers and the dictations of the spirit of the world, and at the same time please
high Heaven, and do our duty faithfully in the building up of the kingdom of God? We think in spiritual "Mormonism" we need direction and constant instruction by the authorized servants of God; but we think we know as much about temporal affairs as anybody. We rejoice in the knowledge that has been revealed from the heavens to us; we rejoice in the word of the Lord that has gone forth; we rejoice that God has spoken in these last days, and that we have received these most valuable instructions—that we have received the knowledge that leads to life and salvation, and to exaltation in his kingdom. But do we realize that God's kingdom in the latter days is to all intents and purposes a temporal kingdom? And do we realize that if we had stayed in the world we could have served him spiritually there as well as here? But what kind of a kingdom would that have been for the Saviour to rule over when he comes? When he comes, he is going to reign over a temporal kingdom, composed of men and women who do his will on the earth. Everything that pertains to us in our life is temporal, and over us and all we possess our Heavenly Father and his Son Jesus Christ will reign, as well as over all the kingdoms of the world when they become the kingdoms of our God and his Christ.

To build up Zion is a temporal labour; it does not consist simply in teaching: teaching is to instruct us how to properly apply our labour, the sooner and better to accomplish the end in view. Bone and sinew is required to build up the kingdom of God in the last days. When Jesus Christ was upon the earth, he said—My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence." It was not of this world, then; but it remained to be in the latter days, and then his servants will wage a warfare against the powers of Satan, both visible and invisible. The Saints are now engaged in that warfare; they have to fight against the evil influences that attend upon their footsteps day by day, and then have to fight against his inclining them to do evil, and against all evil powers, and to root them out from their midst. They have also to contend against the powers of darkness which appear in human beings, causing them to come up in the shape of mobs to fight against the Saints of the Most High. This is a temporal warfare as well in which we are engaged. The Devil has held the control of the earth. Under his influence the people have built up cities, colleges, and institutions of every description, and traverse the earth and seas to amass money to sustain them. We have been gathered out to form a nucleus of power to take the kingdom, overcome evil with good, tread wickedness under our feet, and exalt righteousness upon the mountain tops, that the power, the wealth, and earthly prosperity may be taken from the powers of the Devil and placed within the power and control of a righteous people where it belongs. What can we do to promote this great cause, to redeem the earth from sin, from hell, and from the Devil, and make it a habitation for Saints and angels? This is a question that comes home to us all. The best answer that can be given to it is, Do according to the instructions of him whom the Lord has appointed to lead us. He says, "Go to with your might and build up the kingdom of God, by quarrying the rock, by bringing the timber from the kanyons and making it into lumber, by making adobies, mixing the mortar, burning the lime, and drawing from the elements around us the material

necessary to beautify and build up, and to exalt in every way those principles that essay to establish righteousness over the whole earth." If the word is to build forts, build them; if to raise grain, raise grain. It is needful to do these things because our society is composed of men, women, and children, the same as other communities of people. Like other people, we must have food and raiment, houses to live in, and the common creature comforts..... We have been brought far from the wicked world, to give us an opportunity to show that we will do it, or that we will not do it,—to prove our integrity to the cause of righteousness and to God—to prove to him that we will struggle to obtain the knowledge and the ability to create the means of our own subsistence—that we will struggle to subdue the elements, to sanctify the earth, chase unholiness from it, and beautify it by building up beautiful places, ornamenting our grounds, cultivating fruits of every variety that will flourish in our country, and thus bless ourselves with the blessings the Almighty has placed within our reach, and prove to him that we are willing to abide his high behest, acknowledging that he throws in our way all these advantages, and by our works show that we are willing to make all our efforts point to the building up of the kingdom of God, and prove to the world that we are more exalted in our attainments and more elevated in our notions than they are; and finally we will make ourselves independent of every people and nation upon the earth.

When our Father in heaven finds he has got a people who stand as a unit in favour of his kingdom, and have made themselves free and independent, will he not be pleased with that people? It is a long time since he has had such a people. It is our privilege to be that people, and be acknowledged of God as his people. Then it becomes us to be watchful, careful, energetic, and diligent in endeavouring to bring to pass his purposes according to his mind and good pleasure.

Here are the fat vallies of Ephraim. From the elements that are strewn around us in rich profusion we can gain our entire support. We can raise the flax, the wool, the cotton, the bread, the fruit, and sugar. We can dig out the iron ore, and the copper, and the lead, and mould these minerals to our wants, and make them administer to our comfort and convenience. One can accomplish one thing, and another can accomplish something else. When our labour is properly directed, one man will go at this employment, and another at that, to bring forth the things necessary for our mutual convenience and comfort. When we are willing to abide the instructions of our leaders, and bring to our aid the knowledge we have received in the countries from which we have been gathered, all will then conspire to one end—namely, for the building up of the kingdom of God. In the northern parts of this Territory we can produce things that


they cannot so well produce in the southern portions. Last spring we visited the southern settlements. There they can raise choice fruits that alone will flourish in southern climates; they can also raise cotton better than we can, and you can raise wool better than they. In this way we can create an exchange of commodities between the north and the south, make our cotton and woollen cloth at home, and not be too proud to wear it when we have made it.

In the revelations of God to Joseph Smith, jun., we read—,"And again, thou shalt not be proud in thy heart. Let all thy garments be plain, and their beauty the beauty of the work of thine own hands; and let all things be done in cleanliness before me." We can get the furs in these mountains to make the most beautiful hats, and the most durable. From the countries north-west of us the Hudson Bay Company supply nearly all Europe with the choicest of furs. Shall we first send the furs to hell, and then have them freighted back to us by Gentile speculators at a great expense, in the shape of hats for us to wear? Get the fur and make our own hats. And so with our leather, and our boots and shoes, and so with everything that is necessary for our happiness and comfort.

Heretofore we have been sorely taxed; our life blood has been drawn from us—our circulating medium is continually drawn away for those articles which we can produce ourselves. That woman that makes a yard of cloth accomplishes a good work towards building up the independence of the kingdom of God, and by her works her faith is made manifest.

That man who raises a small patch of flax, prepares it for the spinning-wheel, procures the wheel and loom, and is diligent in having his wives and daughters learn to convert the flax into thread and cloth, is labouring in the right way to permanently establish the kingdom of God. This will not only apply to flax, but wool, and every other production natural to our country. In this way both men and women and children are accomplishing the purpose for which they have been gathered out from their native places into these distant valleys.

I have said that we have a warfare to wage. Guns and pistols are brought here, and can be had sometimes at low prices. Such weapons are necessary in the warfare in which we are engaged. We have attempted to make powder, and with perseverance and skill I have no doubt a plentiful supply can be produced here.

We are now successfully making paper. You will soon receive the Deseret News printed on paper made here. You can aid and assist in this species of home production by saving carefully your rags for the paper manufactory. In the manufacture of paper we check the outward flow of one stream of gold that has heretofore gone to enrich the Gentiles.

We are also successfully making nails. Our machinery is of the most approved kind, and can produce them in great quantities.

We can also produce our linseed oil from the flax-seed. The oil made here is of fine quality.


....

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

On the subject of local, state, and federal fees and taxes and documentation on these sorts of small markets, junk silver could be a solution to that problem as well.

If you're going by the silver value, you have something that can be used for small purchases, but if you go by the coin value, the prices paid would be roughly 1/20th the actual value (at current values). So if a government entity tried to move in and impose fines or taxes based on prices paid, they'd be taxing dimes and quarters. And while the government has been trying to clamp down on gold and silver use, requiring businesses to document buys and sells, taxing it, and putting large purchases and sales on watch lists, junk silver is still legal tender. I'm not sure the government could legally put restrictions on the silver value of it since the coin value is sovereign. Not without invalidating their own currency. And by the same token they couldn't require documentation on it that they don't require of their own currency.

Of course compared to some of the other excesses they've taken in attacking our liberties, something like declaring junk silver no longer legal tender would be a small thing.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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I have been trying to visualize what it would take for Sanpete County to move towards self-reliance. I have uploaded a chart to try to get an idea of what might be needed. I think the answer is in developing cooperatives and putting citizens of Sanpete to work. I believe the way to go is to develop the market first and then move backwards to producing supplies.

Example:

Peoples Market -> Tailor -> Weaver -> Spinner -> Sheep Farmer

In this example, the tailor starts making clothes and sells them at the peoples market from materials bought outside the county. A weaver is recruited to start creating the fabric used by the tailor. The weaver recruits a spinner. The spinner approaches the sheep farmers (already in Sanpete) for raw materials. I see this as a slow growth over a few years. I envision a different cooperative being created at the various levels of production and investing in modern machinery to produce in volumes that are sustained by the demand. Then, if markets are developed outside the county, production can increase to meet the new demand. Sanpete can begin to supply all of Utah with its basic needs.

I believe this can lead to a near zero unemployment and (as mentioned in the talk referenced by Dr. Jones) can keep wealth in Utah in stead of it leaving the state (and the USA).
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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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DrJones wrote:I learned that in my town of Spring City, the town guvmint wanted more revenue from fees etc.... which has prompted some of us to seek a spot for the PM outside the town, in the county. There are actually two guys with proposed spots -- Keith C and David... will leave the names at that for now.
I believe that a political movement should be started to replace local and county leaders that aren't supportive of smaller government and lower taxes. I believe it will be imperative to alter the tax structure so that the Gadiantons can't use it to thwart efforts at independence.

Additionally, a constitutionally minded sheriff will have to be elected that will stand up to unconstitutional federal authorities that attempt to exert influence in the county.

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Good points, mes5464. I can think of a few other things that we have available in the area. With the Manti-La Sal national forest on our doorstep, (portions of which are privately owned), softwoods in the form of spruce, fir, and aspen are available. Furniture, firewood, building materials, etc, can be produced if someone can be found to harvest and mill the wood and contracts made with owners of the property for logging.

Coal is also plentiful in this area, if patches of it can be found and measures taken to mine it. I've also heard that reserves of oil have been found in the area, particularly farther south.

Then there's game in the national forest. With the proper permits deer and elk could be hunted and the meat processed.

I think with a bit of effort we have everything we need to sustain ourselves in the area. Through barter or alternative currencies we would be freed from slavery to the Federal Reserve Note and the imported goods that demand it, and by the same token to the government that controls it, and we'd be able to care for ourselves without the need for Federal subsidies or welfare or the like. And if we can free ourselves from Federal and State handouts we could free ourselves from a lot of the raw food laws, government mandated vaccinations, and other things which impose limits on health or even prove detrimental.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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DrJones wrote: And the idea of using pre-1965 silver-bearing coins (hereafter "realcoins") met with approval from all that I home taught this evening and all others I've discussed this with-- I count ten supporters so far and none opposed. It's like having your own currency (some communities have gone to that actually) but without the pain of printing your own currency -- and with the benefit that the value of each coin is stamped right on the coin!! Any sales tax would/should I think be based on that value.
...
If a person lacks realcoins, he can buy them at the fair, near spot price value (for silver).
These become the Constitutional currency for the Peoples Market... along with IMO silver 1-ounce rounds (valued right at spot). Thus, a dozen fresh eggs would be a dime (say) and home-grown tomatoes might cost 2lbs for a dime, etc.
My concern with sticking to pre-1965 coins is whither we can afford to purchase/find enough coins to drive the economic growth.

I like the idea (had a dream about this I posted on another thread) in mint our own silver rounds and stamping them with a value that will be agreed to be accepted at the people's market (and by the community of cooperatives).

This will accomplish the following:
Provide enough silver currency to keep the market going.
Keep the wealth in the county (at first) since the currency will not be recognized outside the county.

Some points that will need to be resolved:
Sales Taxation - IMO the local and county can tax the local currency only if they agree to accept that currency as legal tender. This can be accomplished by voting in constitutionally aware county representatives.
State Taxation - Utah has already voted to recognize silver as currency and therefore it should be simple to deposit the silver into the "silver depositories" and then pay state taxes.
Federal Taxation - IMO the fed shouldn't be able to tax the currency as it can be defined at "property" not "income". I don't think any effort to develop self-reliance will succeed as long at the fed is able to change the tax code repeatedly until they crush any resistance.

A note about the silver depositories:
I can see a threat here from the Gadianton controlled banking system. They learned how to manipulate the precious metals when they were legal tender and they can do it again. I am leery of turning my silver over to anyone. This is way I proposed the creation of a Sanpete credit union that will allow persons to deposit the silver and control it through the credit union cooperative.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Fairminded wrote:Good points, mes5464. I can think of a few other things that we have available in the area. With the Manti-La Sal national forest on our doorstep, (portions of which are privately owned), softwoods in the form of spruce, fir, and aspen are available. Furniture, firewood, building materials, etc, can be produced if someone can be found to harvest and mill the wood and contracts made with owners of the property for logging.

Coal is also plentiful in this area, if patches of it can be found and measures taken to mine it. I've also heard that reserves of oil have been found in the area, particularly farther south.

Then there's game in the national forest. With the proper permits deer and elk could be hunted and the meat processed.

I think with a bit of effort we have everything we need to sustain ourselves in the area. Through barter or alternative currencies we would be freed from slavery to the Federal Reserve Note and the imported goods that demand it, and by the same token to the government that controls it, and we'd be able to care for ourselves without the need for Federal subsidies or welfare or the like. And if we can free ourselves from Federal and State handouts we could free ourselves from a lot of the raw food laws, government mandated vaccinations, and other things which impose limits on health or even prove detrimental.
I agree 100%!

Take the wild game idea. We would have to look the fed and state in the eye and say, "no, to the prohibition of selling processed wild game".

A cooperative can be formed by the land owners to harvest and mill their own lumber. The land owners with coal can create a cooperative to start mining it.

We can put the who county to work if people will be willing to take the jobs. I am concerned that "Americans" will not be willing to take the jobs. Now days, everyone seems to want an easy, air conditioned job. True self-reliance demands everyone will have to "eat by the sweat of thy brow". I believe some repentance from idleness will have to go hand in hand with these ideas.

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Fairminded
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Fairminded »

I think some of the greatest reluctance Americans feel for working menial jobs has been that they're tied to the lowest wages. People look at them and they don't see a future.

In a community where everyone is contributing, free of big government control, menial jobs would directly produce valued items that people would want to trade for. There would be opportunity for increase as well as a desire to do so. Far from being seen as an undesirable career with no future, they would be valued contributors to the community with the potential to grow as much as they're willing to work for.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Fairminded wrote:I think some of the greatest reluctance Americans feel for working menial jobs has been that they're tied to the lowest wages. People look at them and they don't see a future.

In a community where everyone is contributing, free of big government control, menial jobs would directly produce valued items that people would want to trade for. There would be opportunity for increase as well as a desire to do so. Far from being seen as an undesirable career with no future, they would be valued contributors to the community with the potential to grow as much as they're willing to work for.
Well put and I agree. I will try to have a more positive outlook in the future.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

I really like where you guys are going with this, and especially Mes' example and chart, and the discussion about developing an alternative currency system based on pre-1965 silver.

I likewise agree that people, especially in the current economy, are willing to do what is often considered more menial work, especially if it can generate a living wage. Near the community where I live is a cheese plant. It doesn't produce any cheese, but it processes (slices, dices, shreds, etc., and repackages) all kinds of cheese. Some of the most menial, base level jobs include handling large blocks of cheese and putting them on conveyer belts in an assembly line, as well as "palletizing" boxes of cheese. These are very basic, menial, labor-intensive jobs, but they pay well enough that many people are glad to have them. Probably 1/3 of the working men in the community where I live work at this cheese plant, not because the jobs are the greatest in the world, but because they pay a living wage. I think living wage is a key threshold. But, if there is a vision and/or potential for even greater opportunity, that is another great incentive.
Last edited by tmac on January 23rd, 2012, 9:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

tmac wrote:Doc, I'm interested to hear more about the fees, etc., that the Spring City town government wanted to impose on the market there. As in virtually all aspects of our lives, government regulation and taxation -- unfortunately even including by local governments -- is becoming a bigger and bigger issue. Your alternative currency idea is an interesting one. This whole discussion seems fairly ironic/coincidental. Based on some of Mes' earlier posts, etc., that got me thinking, I had been outlining some ideas for a local, alternative currency system to use in just such an alternative market venue that would probably include a farmers market, a swap meet (both people's markets), as well as a thrift store, and a couple other anchor type shops selling local production items. A business associate of mine and I have been scoping out venues in Utah county to launch something like this, but have always thought that we ought to go into it with the idea of working the bugs out of the business model, etc., and then duplicate the model in other locations. To that end, based on my own connections and roots in Sanpete County, we have also had our eye on a possible venue in Sanpete County in a pretty good location that could offer year-round protection from the elements.

My own perspective has been that although these types of markets have been exceptions to the general mainstream rules of commerce in the U.S. (and especially in Utah, etc.), interest in them is growing, and when SHTF, I think they will become the norm. Consequently, like many things along the preparedness line, I have been of the opinion that it would be worthwhile to get something started and up and running in advance, with the long-term scenario in mind.

Based on our acquaintance on LDSFF, several years ago I met Jason, and over the course of the last couple years, we have gotten to know each other fairly well personally, and have worked on some projects together. We recently had our own conversation about all this, and he said that one of his biggest concerns, in the SHTF/melt-down scenario, would be security for such a market. I recommended that he watch the "Black Jack" episode of the Jericho series. Not that it provides ideal answers, security-wise, but it is interesting, and also depicts the kind of role those kinds of markets will have under those conditions. I actually think the Jericho series is fairly realistic overall in many of those respects. Unfortunately, there is plenty of soap-opera like relationship non-sense, especially in the first season. But I do think that it can help get the mental wheels turning.
tmac,

I agree with your assessments in the post.

Addressing the security issue, I haven't seen Jericho as we have abandoned TV in our home. What did they do in the "Black Jack" episode?

Wouldn't the 2nd Amendment be the ideal solution to security? Everyone should be carrying a fire arm for their own protection. Even in Elder Packer's address last night at the Seminary Centennial Celebration he told the story of a seminary teacher sent to teach on an Indian reservation that only put away is "six shooter" after receiving a blessing that he would be protected from all harm. Apparently the class was pretty rough.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

tmac wrote:I really like where you guys are going with this, and especially Mes' example and chart, and the discussion about developing an alternative currency system based on pre-1965 silver.

I likewise agree that people, especially in the current economy, are willing to do what is often considered more menial work, especially if it can generate a living wage. Near the community where I live is a cheese plant. It doesn't produce any cheese, but it processes (slices, dices, shreds, etc., and repackages) all kinds of cheese. Some of the most menial, base level jobs include handling large blocks of cheese and putting them on conveyer belts in an assembly line, as well as "palletizing" boxes of cheese. These are very basic, menial, labor-intensive jobs, but they pay well enough that many people are glad to have them. Probably 1/3 of the working men in the community where I live work at this cheese plant, not because the jobs are the greatest in the world, but because they pay a living wage. I think living wage is a key threshold.
I have to agree. I have often said that I would be willing to clean toilets if it paid enough to live on. Compared to the stress my job as a computer programmer causes, I would welcome a job that I can leave at work when I go home. All I want is to provide for my family of eight without my wife having to work outside the home.

I have also concluded that I really need to reconsider what I look at as a "need". I need to reduce my expenses and my luxuries. Somethings I have considered are; dryer (I can hang clothes to dry), television (already gone), dish washer, smaller house.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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We don't have TV either, and haven't had for a long time, but we do watch videos and DVDs. Based on my interest in all this sort of thing (preparedness, SHTF scenarios, etc.) a couple years ago someone recommended the Jericho series. We first checked out DVDs in the series from the library, through the book loan service where they find and bring it in from another library. My wife and kids thought I liked it so well (they enjoyed it to), that later they gave me the DVD series for Christmas. In the past month on long winter evenings we have watched the whole series again. It's not exactly Little House on the Prairie, and there is a soap opera element to it, but it's actually pretty interesting in the context of these sorts of discussions. Instead of being about a community trying to build Zion, and being a Zion community, its' about a modern community that was just trying to survive when SHTF, and then just kept hitting the fan -- plus plenty of intrigue and secret combinations,etc., and all that stuff to help make it even more interesting.

The big people's market depicted in the Black Jack episode was developed at a fairground facility that had secure fencing, gates, etc,. and ample parking. The second amendment is a huge theme in the whole series. Everyone is packing as a necessity for personal security. I'm not necessarily advocating the security measures they employed at Black Jack, but it is thought provoking. I say that because Jason's concern was that under those conditions, if there is a big market set up, and everything is there, what would stop say a big, well-organized gang from just coming in and stealing everything? The Black Jack episode shows the reality that there were a lot of pretty rough characters floating around, and that stealing was a big issue -- that they dealt with pretty harshly. To help keep some semblance of order and avoid shoot-outs, however, much like some pro-active sheriffs in the old west, who had people essentially check their guns at the door when they got to town, at Black Jack they likewise had everyone check their guns at the gate when they arrived. I'm not saying that I advocate that approach, but it does help give a person plenty to think about in terms of thinking through the best ways to try to handle those sorts of issues in an essentially law of the jungle, survival of the fittest type scenario.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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mes5464 wrote:I have been trying to visualize what it would take for Sanpete County to move towards self-reliance. I have uploaded a chart to try to get an idea of what might be needed. I think the answer is in developing cooperatives and putting citizens of Sanpete to work. I believe the way to go is to develop the market first and then move backwards to producing supplies.
...
I believe this can lead to a near zero unemployment and (as mentioned in the talk referenced by Dr. Jones) can keep wealth in Utah in stead of it leaving the state (and the USA).
Good thinking, mes5464, fairminded, tmac and others!

Sanpete Co in particular has a newly-elected sheriff, elected because he is awakened (we pulled together and he won a "surprise" victory over the incumbent by a few votes). I understand that Sheriff Mack is holding a training conference for county sheriffs soon, and our county sheriff will be there!

While it is true that the supply of pre-65 silver is limited, it is not scarce, and it will be used and re-used (circulated) in the People's Market envisioned. Interestingly, its value will doubtless go up due to the rapid printing of FRNotes, given the ostentatious name of "Quantitative Easing".

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

I have been pushing co-ops on this thread so I thought I should share some links to allow people to learn about them. Maybe you will come to see why I think they are a good idea.

By the way, 2012 is International Year of Cooperatives!

http://www.uwcc.wisc.edu/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.ncba.coop/ncba/about-co-ops" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As a reminder, credit unions are co-ops. REI is a co-op. My electric company Blue Ridge Electric is a co-op. Southern States Co-op is were most people in my county get their feed and seed.

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