People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Sorry, double post. How/why does that happen?

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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I just learned about this tonight. I think it might be help.

Cottage Industry Laws

I haven't found much. Maybe one of you can look into Utah to see if they exist there.
Here is what I have found.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=359500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://sites.google.com/site/thepatrio ... stries-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.eatwellfoodtour.com/2009/06/ ... -laws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18668/ ... dustry-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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tmac wrote:Couldn't agree more about all the exchange ideas. I'm a big believer in essentially all forms of alternative markets and exchange enterprises/venues. In the intermountain west, ksl.com actually creates a fairly phenomenal alternative market/exchange. We just need more -- of all kinds.

I also finally found the book I was referring to earlier: New Genesis -- A Mormon Reader on Land and Community. It includes an essay titled "The Mormon Village: Model for Sustainability," with the sub-heading: "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). In addition to the points I mentioned before, the following is a quote from that essay that I have always found to be profound and right on target.
Brigham Young had a clear concept of how the Great Basin should be developed. Based on Joseph Smith's model, the self-sufficient Mormon Village was replicated over and over again. A commonwealth of villages was the intended result, a community of communities. Each village controlled its own water, food and fuel resources, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land. Irrigation systems developed through cooperation were responsible for the success of these dynamic new communities. The Mormon village exerted a strong influence on other planned communities in the West that somehow never achieved equal success.
. . . .

The Mormon pioneer village was an extraordinary example of a sustainable community. The pioneers knew well the critical systems on which they both depended and survived. Water from winter snow, stored in some form of reservoir, fed the planted fields in the hot dry summer. Fuel was harvested from the surrounding forest. LIfe was organized around the resources of the countryside, and population did not exceed the carrying capacity of the surrounding land and natural resources.
. . . .

Despite the success of the Mormon village in an agrarian society, it never made an adequate adjustment to the industrial society. Unlike the Amish who held fast to their agrarian roots, the Mormon culture moved toward mainstream America and abandoned its agrarian tradition., Today, Utah is like any other western state; its main crop is hay for feeding cattle. Virtually all of its food and much of its fuel is imported, and fresh water in the mountains is no longer safe to drink. Self-sufficiency is a thing of the past.


Otherwise, I have some more food for thought for cooperative productive enterprises. I'll save that for a separate post.
WOW! That is profoundly true.

I hope I have the faith to help turn it around because right now it feels daunting.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

mes5464 wrote:I just learned about this tonight. I think it might be help.

Cottage Industry Laws

I haven't found much. Maybe one of you can look into Utah to see if they exist there.
Here is what I have found.

http://www.homesteadingtoday.com/showth ... p?t=359500" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
https://sites.google.com/site/thepatrio ... stries-act" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.eatwellfoodtour.com/2009/06/ ... -laws.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.thefreshloaf.com/node/18668/ ... dustry-law" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How kind of a generous government to allow people to do those things, as long as they still at least make sure the proper cut of the proceeds gets properly submitted....

We used to live in a country where everything was legal that wasn't prohibited by law... now it looks like permission and compliance efforts are necessary for nearly everything. Wouldn't it be nice for this sort of thing to step back and only look at crimes with a victim, like fraud or intentionally unsafe products.

How did we survive for so many thousands of years without all of this government protection?

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Here is what Wiki has to say. It isn't much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_in ... e_industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

mes5464 wrote:Here is what Wiki has to say. It isn't much.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottage_in ... e_industry" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks mes. This is an interesting article in general, beyond the cottage industry section. The concept of a larger distributor or brand acting on behalf of various small manufacturers is interesting. There might be issues with uniformity, but that could be part of the appeal for certain types of goods.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by davedan »

The OP taught me at BYU that unless we can think in terms of natural law, common sense will never get at the correct answer. When it comes to monetary theory, the Milton Freidman equation is the law:

dM/dt (money supply) + dV/dt (velocity) = inflation + dR/dt (real output)

This equation explains everything about the operation of money in an economy. Thanks to this equation, Japan was transformed from a feudal society during WW2 to a First World Economy in just 30 years. Think of that miracle.

During a few years of the Tribulation, bartering and Mercantile-money system (take commodity to bank that creates and issues money sufficient to purchase commodity) will be useful. However, when it comes to building Zion, and restoring America after the Burning of Babylon, we are going to need a efficient and equitable monetary system.

The 30-year Japanese Miracle depended on several factors. What we are talking about is a phenomenal growth in Real Output while controlling inflation.

1. Money Supply. The key here is making loans and determining credit worthiness. If an individual or group has an idea, and they can prove feasibility, then money should be created to make it happen.

What I have been saying with my Safety Society System is the patented idea, the land, machinery, proven oil reserves in the ground can serve as the redeemable backing and collateral for the loan and money creation.

Infinite money can be created and infinite loans can be issued which will never cause inflation because money creation will always be perfectly in-line with real output.

2. Velocity. This has to do with how technology can increase the rate of transactions. The more transactions per unit time = more real output.

A. Identity. Need to establish who is who
B. Property Rights. Need to know who owns what.
C. Rule of Law. Need established rules to transfer property from one person to another.
D. Represent real assets by paper, or electronically (increases velocity because if you had to transport asset to sell it, transport costs and time are a drag. Problems arise when paper and electronic entries are not tied to anything of value. This undermines faith and social capital)

E. World-wide electronic markets [EBay]. Helps sellers find buyers. However, this is bad for commodities. If there was a drought in the Midwest. Brazilian corn could outcompete domestic corn. Therefore, domestic prices should reflect the actual cost to produce corn and tarrifs should protect domestic producers in a difficult year.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

davedan wrote:The OP taught me at BYU that unless we can think in terms of natural law, common sense will never get at the correct answer. When it comes to monetary theory, the Milton Freidman equation is the law:

dM/dt (money supply) + dV/dt (velocity) = inflation + dR/dt (real output)

This equation explains everything about the operation of money in an economy. Thanks to this equation, Japan was transformed from a feudal society during WW2 to a First World Economy in just 30 years. Think of that miracle.


How would an equation do any such thing? The Japanese economic expansion was driven by new opportunities for trade and by hard work by a people trying to reestablish their place in the world following a military defeat. To this day Japanese people from CEOs to assembly line workers consider their contribution to their organization and community to be the most important part of their lives.

All that equation, or more precisely the Keynesian variation of it, has done is resulted in an economy that is stagnating and burdened by significant public and private debt.
davedan wrote:During a few years of the Tribulation, bartering and Mercantile-money system (take commodity to bank that creates and issues money sufficient to purchase commodity) will be useful. However, when it comes to building Zion, and restoring America after the Burning of Babylon, we are going to need a efficient and equitable monetary system.
This gets to your real point, it seems. On this, I couldn't disagree more and I doubt we'll see debt-based currency in a Zion. There is both no need, and the inequality and harm it would cause would be undesirable.

Throughout history prosperity has not happened because of any sort of monetary system, it has happened as a natural result of people working hard to improve their lives in the absence of violent interference (either as war or political domination and taxation).

This is true of the United State just after WWII when the tax rates were reduced and a period of peace allowed for huge prosperity and economic expansion. This was also true of the Saints in the mountain west in the early provincial period with government that focused on peace and economic coordination as opposed to economic control and a class of bureaucrats that produces nothing but control and force. Once the federal government eliminated the more local government and instituted various policies as a condition of statehood, things took a big step back and have continued to since.

When people are free to trade, they figure out ways of doing so. There is no need for a fiat currency backed only by threats of force as all non-value-backed currencies are.
davedan wrote:The 30-year Japanese Miracle depended on several factors. What we are talking about is a phenomenal growth in Real Output while controlling inflation.

1. Money Supply. The key here is making loans and determining credit worthiness. If an individual or group has an idea, and they can prove feasibility, then money should be created to make it happen.

What I have been saying with my Safety Society System is the patented idea, the land, machinery, proven oil reserves in the ground can serve as the redeemable backing and collateral for the loan and money creation.

Infinite money can be created and infinite loans can be issued which will never cause inflation because money creation will always be perfectly in-line with real output.


Sorry, but you cannot add money to the supply based on assets alone without decreasing the value of the money already there. Production is a combination of resources and work, so if you loan based on expected production and that expected production does not materialize, then the monetary inflation will lead to: price inflation, centralization of wealth (no matter how "small" the fees and whether or not there is interest for such loans), and for the person stuck with the loan it would result in long-term indebtedness which is just a form of "free-range" slavery.

Loans based on expected production constantly go wrong, and loans based on assets also cause problems when commodity prices are not constantly increasing. Loans based on assets push more currency into the marketplace and cause those price increases, just like real estate for a couple of decades before 2007, but eventually debt saturation will occur and there will be significant economic damage.
davedan wrote:2. Velocity. This has to do with how technology can increase the rate of transactions. The more transactions per unit time = more real output.
Actually, technology is not needed for monetary velocity. It's not how quickly money can be moved around, but rather how quickly the money is spent after it is received. An increase in velocity does not necessarily mean an increase in real output, it can also result in price inflation (and in a panic, that's exactly what happens... people spend now based on anticipated needs and speculation of future value in other areas instead of saving, and this increased demand increases all sorts of prices).

Velocity isn't always a good thing. Saving money or assets helps protect against future want, allows for investment in larger endeavors, and following more productive periods allows for human effort in more meaningful or pleasurable things instead of just pure production. Saving is the basis of any stable economy, and no, some faulty idea about easy money through asset-backed loans cannot replace it.

Technology can make markets more efficient and can reduce human labor needed for many things. Good information about existing and projected supply and demand can help people make better decisions about what to produce and whether more effort needs to go into providing for basic needs versus other human endeavors beyond our basic needs as mortals.

Of course, if we were immortal most economic activity would be very different as there would never be concerns over insufficient food or shelter or clean water and sanitation. It's a funny thing to consider as the time value of money wouldn't have the same meaning since it would be easy to have zero expenses for millennia if need be to allow your assets to appreciate through loans or investment... kind of funny to think about.

Technology can be used to facilitate records of assets and facilitate transfer, but there is no need to have a fiat currency for that... and in fact it would be way more valuable and effective for asset-backed notes.

The stuff you mentioned about identity and property records are interesting. Wouldn't it be great to have a government that you could trust enough to have that information without using it to steal from you (as our current government does... in fact that is the primary reason for most of their record keeping).

In general aside from using force to counter theft or fraud, it has no place in a free society or marketplace. Anything that relies on it to function efficiently, even using a tariff to manipulate the economy or interfere with free trade, shows a weakness in the intended system as well as representing an immoral application of force. There are ways to tariffs that don't do these things (if you can trust the government with that...), and also better ways to fund justified government actions that represent societal application of force so that people don't have to (ie punishment of crimes involving agression, theft, fraud, etc).

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mes5464
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Jonesde, I agree with you.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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SSS miney is not "debt-based". SSS money is "asset-based". All bank loans are redeemable by a real asset. SSS just recognizes that loans are a major point of money supply creation.

Yes, I agree that "projected production" sometimes falls short. But sometimes production exceeds projections. To correct for inflation and excess money on the system, the Federal government can tax by raising inteerst rates on loans. This interest rate constitutes a constitutional voluntary excise tax on the use of credit.

I am all in support of a limited federal government. However, our inspired Constitution actually gives certain specific powers to the Federal Government. How about we have our Government actually do what it's supposed to and get out of the business of what its not supposed to do.

Constitution says tarrifs are Constitutional except between states.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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It's seems we have all become economic "neo-feudalist".

Why do we need the NWO when we are wanting to self-impose our own austerity measures.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Jonesde,

I have to thank you for your comment, because it got me thinking about the question "how SSS encourages saving over borrowing".

1. SSS wouldn't lend for everything. Maybe only homes
2. SSS wouldnt necessarily for venture capital, only redeemable relative-non depreciating assets. (money is asset-redeemable and not debt-based)
3. SSS would not approve a loan above its appraised value. The focus would be on retaining value in an inflation-less system (Federal Government regulates value of current coin). However, the saver could pay as much as they wanted and out-bid borrower.
4. As people save, they won't need to borrow. Thus new money is not created.
5. Simple Interest rates and fees would be high enough to favor saving over borrowing.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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I too agree with Jonesde. On the other hand, we could turn this thread into a completely theoretic debate about alternative economic policy/theory and go on forever. Just like the current political thread/debate(s) about Ron Paul vs. Mitt Romney, etc., that debate could go on and on, round and round, and never actually accomplish anything.

At one point, though, Mes said “I hope I have the faith to help turn it around because right now it feels daunting.” On that score, I once had a colleague who regularly said “by the yard, it’s hard, by the inch it’s a cinch.” On a previous page, I posted a link to an article called the million dollar drawer, that talked about all the great plans that never got executed. More important than a billion dollar plan that doesn’t get executed is a simple, basic plan that does get executed.

Looking beyond marketing components, including the people’s market concept that we have already discussed in some detail, in terms of discussing actual production/processing enterprises, I would like to go back to the example and chart Mes posted several pages ago about the supply chain for wool textile/fiber products, etc. The reality is, I believe this is an area that has huge potential (and need) for a cooperative enterprise, and would actually be a very good place to start. At one time Utah was essentially the heart of the American sheep industry, and Sanpete County was the heart of the Utah sheep industry. Although I believe the sheep production industry is one of the most sustainable agricultural production models we have, the reality is the sheep production industry has been up and down and deteriorating for years, but is very strong right now.

At one time, there were a number of cooperative woolen mills in Utah, and several, including Utah Woolen Mills and Barron Woolen Mills, continued until just the past several decades. But in terms of production, they are now all long gone (although Utah Woolen Mills still has a retail storefront where they sell bought-in high-end wool clothing and other products). Today, although there are still plenty of viable sheep ranchers in Utah and in Sanpete County, beyond basic production of the sheep/wool, there is virtually no local or regional infrastructure for doing anything with the wool. In fact, Mes, a lot of what little domestic wool processing infrastructure remains is back in your country in the Carolinas. In fact, if you got a chance, you might go look at some of them and what they've got going.

I think there is huge potential, on a cooperative basis, to start on a small scale basis, and start step by step building wool processing infrastructure along with creating corresponding market demand, etc.. And again, as a place to start, it’s an area that isn’t near as heavily regulated as food. It’s gotten to the point that it’s now hard to even find new, domestically produced wool blankets in this country, and good ones can be very, very expensive. Consequently, I think there is huge potential to do something in the wool processing/production industry. The domestic textile industry is in such bad shape that this is an area where I believe something meaningful could be done at a local level that could actually even have significant impact at the national level. In fact, in addition to finer woven textile products, I believe there is all kinds of potential for development of additional wool/fiber products from felted products to batting (think quilt filler, etc.), to insulation.

Labor in the sheep production industry itself, from sheepherders (shepherds) to sheepshearers, is also a huge issue. Probably 90+% of the workforce is foreign, working on H2A agricultural visas. Most herders are Peruvian, and shearers are a mix of Peruvian, Uruguayan and Australian, which creates huge challenges for sheep ranchers and shearing contractors given all the immigration regulations and hoops they have to jump through to come up with a workforce.

But that itself, in my opinion, creates huge opportunities. Based on all this I have been studying the relevant immigration and workforce issues, and I think there is huge potential to get around a lot of it by creating a school for sheep shearing and sheep herding that would allow temporary workers to be brought in on much more simple student visas instead of much more complicated and expensive H2A work visas. The other thing I think this could create an amazing opportunity for is both missionary work, and to do some additional education of these herders, and provide a better social support system.

The reason I say that is because I think that one day when the time comes (and it's only a matter of time), there are going to be several million head of sheep (a sustainable source of food and fiber) in the West that are going to be in the possession and control of a relatively small number (in the hundreds) of Peruvian herders, many of whom are going to be left wondering what happened and what to do about it. I have given this quite a bit of thought and I honestly believe that at some point, whether it’s due to EMP strike, war, natural disaster, whatever, probably about 50% of the sheep ranchers simply won’t show up one week with groceries, and further instructions, and these guys are going to be left to fend for themselves, and to try to figure out what to do. As good and competent as they are at what they do, and shepherding, tending sheep, and living very simply and surviving out by themselves, etc., I seriously doubt that most of them have much big picture perspective, and will really be left floundering when the big picture starts to change and begins to completely dominate the smaller picture (they run out of groceries and the seasons change and no one shows up with more groceries and/or to move their camp, and/or to move their herd to the low country, etc.), and they will be left scratching their heads about what to do.

Consequently, I think if a person/group had set up a system to create a pipeline for helping to provide workforce, training them, etc., providing a support system, etc., there would also be a way to be in a in a position to really help determine and control the ultimate outcome in that regard, because I believe that day will come, and huge opportunities along those lines will present themselves.

Personally, I think the opportunities are there, and I don’t think it would be that hard to put together a solid step by step plan and start moving in that kind of direction.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Tmac, I find your analysis of the sheep business interesting and insightful.

I served my mission in Bolivia and I have kept up on my Spanish. I believe I could help with this effort, once I get to Sanpete.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Spanish fluency and some S. American cultural literacy could be great assets in the equation. So, Mes, I'm curious, what are the steps for you being able to make such a move. Get a job? Sell a house? I know how it is because I've been working on a relocation plan for some time, but it is likewise subject to so many contingencies (selling property, etc.) that are beyond my immediate control, that sometimes if starts to feel a little discouraging. In the end, though, what is supposed to be will be . . . when it's supposed to be. What are the steps/contingencies in your plans?

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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tmac wrote:Spanish fluency and some S. American cultural literacy could be great assets in the equation. So, Mes, I'm curious, what are the steps for you being able to make such a move. Get a job? Sell a house? I know how it is because I've been working on a relocation plan for some time, but it is likewise subject to so many contingencies (selling property, etc.) that are beyond my immediate control, that sometimes if starts to feel a little discouraging. In the end, though, what is supposed to be will be . . . when it's supposed to be. What are the steps/contingencies in your plans?
Well my steps (as I see them) are:

Fix the brick veneer.
Sell a car.
Put the house up for sell. (Am thinking of leaving the sell to the realtor but I would like to sell it myself.)
Yard sale to lighten our material possessions.
Load a rental truck and drive west.

I know I am leaving the job part out. Right now, I am ready to leave with or without a job. I know it sounds crazy but we have had to go through this before. I have learned that if I followed the HG then things will always turnout better than what I had before.

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tmac
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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Mes, looks like a good list. Although it sounds like employment isn't the highest priority on your list, or any kind of deal breaker, you can check out the following site/page for a good idea of jobs in that area. As you can see, there are plenty of sheepherding jobs (that have to be advertised, but virtually all go to H2A visa workers). I noticed the inventory coordinator job at Moroni Feed Co. (that I talked about earlier), though, that might be an interesting opportunity. Even if MFCo. doesn't have everything figured out (who does?), it might be a place to make a living wage and learn a lot, from several different angles (both what to do and what not to do) in a living, breathing, operating cooperative enterprise that is still alive and kicking, fighting to keep costs down, and increase market share to stay that way (alive).

https://jobs.utah.gov/jsp/utahjobs/seek ... 2201502027" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by jonesde »

davedan wrote:Jonesde,

I have to thank you for your comment, because it got me thinking about the question "how SSS encourages saving over borrowing".

1. SSS wouldn't lend for everything. Maybe only homes
2. SSS wouldnt necessarily for venture capital, only redeemable relative-non depreciating assets. (money is asset-redeemable and not debt-based)
3. SSS would not approve a loan above its appraised value. The focus would be on retaining value in an inflation-less system (Federal Government regulates value of current coin). However, the saver could pay as much as they wanted and out-bid borrower.
4. As people save, they won't need to borrow. Thus new money is not created.
5. Simple Interest rates and fees would be high enough to favor saving over borrowing.
If the money is truly asset-redeemable then it is not debt and would be a good basis for a currency. However, if it is truly redeemable that means the asset must be exchanged for the note at any time the note is presented... so it couldn't be that way for things like a home that would be difficult to partially redeem, and if the note could be redeemed for the full asset even if partially paid, who would make that deal?

If it's a loan then a foreclosure backed by legal force is required to redeem the note and it is not really a currency without that force.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

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Wife and I talked to some neighbors about a "multi-family yard sale" in Spring City, come spring... Which yard sale may just move from one spot to another and include eggs and other "farm products".... Come spring.

There is enthusiasm for this idea here.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by davedan »

Jonesde,

The point is saving the bank from individual default. The point is to make sure the bank can redeem something if the borrower defaults. If you save the local community bank, there will never be a need for individuals to redeem their currency. If you save the local bank, you save the people.

What good is redeeming currency for a commodity when your bank just went bankrupt? If you let the bank die, the economy dies. And even if you got some gold back, what can you do with after a economic crash?

SSS protects the bank from individual defaults
Ends fractional reserve banking
Ends compound interest
Ends amortization schedules
Protects depositors from risk taking and defaults of borrowers
Supports free markets,
ends capitalism
Ends inflation
Encourages saving
Encourages innovation

Don't you see it is banking failures that bring on the currency crisis? Save the Local Bank!

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by davedan »

Did I mention SSS is Constitutuonal. The Congress "coins" all the money and regulates its value.

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Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by mes5464 »

Okay, it is early in the morning and I haven't slept for hours. I have been reading the news about a make who is tax at 102% of his adjusted gross income, and Slab City where a bunch of people live without electricity but they appear lazy and accomplish very little, and the splinter-mormon group in Mexico trying to get the legal right to bare arms. (I find it interesting that any of us would use the term splinter-mormon group since anyone of us could be labeled that same way because of opinions we have expressed on this site. I am about the propose something that will put me at risk of being a splinter-mormon.)

Then the thought occurred to me, "we will never establish Zion until we just get in a do it."

What we would need to do?
Come together geographically.
Renounce all participation in the tax system.
Participate in no government programs/utilities/banking (public school, water, electricity, money, judicial, law enforcement, etc).
Provide for ourselves.
Liquidate all property and remove all debt.
Start from scratch building a debt free society (without any FRNs).
Freedom energy.
Self-reliance (water, energy, food, clothing, housing, etc).

Who has done something like this in modern times?
Branch Davidians
A group in Wyoming
A group in Montana
Probably some others
Amish

What did all of those groups have in come?
They were not Zion people with the priesthood.
All but the Amish has ended badly (Squashed by the government. The Amish are being killed in a different way. They are being regulated to death.).

What is the justification?
Men are made free by God the Father.
The Constitution supports the right for a Zion people to form and exist.
We are guaranteed to the right to freedom of religion (My religion prohibits me from killing people so I can not longer pay taxes that fund wars or abortions. Many more arguments to this point.)
We are guaranteed the right to own property (Thus no property tax is legal).
D&C speaks of Zion gathering to one place.
BoM speaks of the Nephites gathering to escape the Gadiantons.
Given time I am sure I can think of more.

What are some of the risks?
Excommunication (There are tares in high offices and many of them are also in government. If any or all get excommunicated would they then stop being a Zion people?)
Squashed by government.
Hard life for our families (It will take considerable time and effort before we could start living comfortably).
Social outcasts (Even among fellow church members).
Hard life for our children's future (No SSNs, birth certificate, accredited public education, etc. All of these things make it impossible to get a job in Babylon if the children try to return to the world.)
Not enough people join to make Zion sustainable.

What do you think?
This has been weighing on me heavily for months now. I have the strongest urge that we can and should start Zion now. I feel it will not be done by a program in the church but by Zion people (lead by the Holy Ghost) to act on faith, not commanded in all things, to JUST DO IT.

I am sure I have missed parts of this idea and will think of them later. This is what I have for now. I look forward to hearing from you.

*As soon as I hit the submit button I thought of new ideas to add. :)

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tmac
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Posts: 4526
Location: Reality

Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

Mes, based on my experience, when it comes to these kinds of discussions and projects, I really like to take a "Stephen Covey, 7 Habits of Highly Effective People," approach. You know: 1. Be Proactive. 2. Begin with the End in Mind. 3. First Things First. 4. Synergize, and so forth. I'm sure you're familiar with the habits and the steps. You're on the right track. You want to be proactive. That's good. That's always good. And you're working on envisioning the whole thing, and beginning with the end (or desired end result) in mind. But sooner or later, you (and everyone else who tries to tackle something like this) have to come back to square one, figure out what is the first step, and the second step, and the third step, etc., that will eventually get the job done, and then most importantly, take that first step. I've mentioned it before, but for many people having the vision and beginning with the grandiose "end result" in mind is not the biggest challenge. The biggest challenge is figuring out which step should come first, second, third, and so forth, and then taking that first step and just keep putting one foot in front of the other. Otherwise, the greatest vision or plan imaginable is just a dream, a fantasy, with nothing to make it into reality. The biggest challenge is in the execution.

Many years ago I heard a saying that has always stuck with me: Vision without work is dreaming. Work without vision is drudgery. Vision coupled with work is destiny.

You've got a great vision. If you feel like you know the sequence of steps that need to be taken, GO TO WORK! When you do, I guarantee you'll sleep better at night.

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Original_Intent
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Posts: 13008

Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by Original_Intent »

mes5464 wrote:Okay, it is early in the morning and I haven't slept for hours. I have been reading the news about a make who is tax at 102% of his adjusted gross income, and Slab City where a bunch of people live without electricity but they appear lazy and accomplish very little, and the splinter-mormon group in Mexico trying to get the legal right to bare arms. (I find it interesting that any of us would use the term splinter-mormon group since anyone of us could be labeled that same way because of opinions we have expressed on this site. I am about the propose something that will put me at risk of being a splinter-mormon.)

Then the thought occurred to me, "we will never establish Zion until we just get in a do it."

What we would need to do?
Come together geographically.
Renounce all participation in the tax system.
Participate in no government programs/utilities/banking (public school, water, electricity, money, judicial, law enforcement, etc).
Provide for ourselves.
Liquidate all property and remove all debt.
Start from scratch building a debt free society (without any FRNs).
Freedom energy.
Self-reliance (water, energy, food, clothing, housing, etc).

Who has done something like this in modern times?
Branch Davidians
A group in Wyoming
A group in Montana
Probably some others
Amish

What did all of those groups have in come?
They were not Zion people with the priesthood.
All but the Amish has ended badly (Squashed by the government. The Amish are being killed in a different way. They are being regulated to death.).

What is the justification?
Men are made free by God the Father.
The Constitution supports the right for a Zion people to form and exist.
We are guaranteed to the right to freedom of religion (My religion prohibits me from killing people so I can not longer pay taxes that fund wars or abortions. Many more arguments to this point.)
We are guaranteed the right to own property (Thus no property tax is legal).
D&C speaks of Zion gathering to one place.
BoM speaks of the Nephites gathering to escape the Gadiantons.
Given time I am sure I can think of more.

What are some of the risks?
Excommunication (There are tares in high offices and many of them are also in government. If any or all get excommunicated would they then stop being a Zion people?)
Squashed by government.
Hard life for our families (It will take considerable time and effort before we could start living comfortably).
Social outcasts (Even among fellow church members).
Hard life for our children's future (No SSNs, birth certificate, accredited public education, etc. All of these things make it impossible to get a job in Babylon if the children try to return to the world.)
Not enough people join to make Zion sustainable.

What do you think?
This has been weighing on me heavily for months now. I have the strongest urge that we can and should start Zion now. I feel it will not be done by a program in the church but by Zion people (lead by the Holy Ghost) to act on faith, not commanded in all things, to JUST DO IT.

I am sure I have missed parts of this idea and will think of them later. This is what I have for now. I look forward to hearing from you.

*As soon as I hit the submit button I thought of new ideas to add. :)

I have had much the same thoughts it seems, Mes.

One thing I think is that everyone has to acknowledge that it is a risky proposition for many reasons. For one, it seems that whenever such a group in the church has broken off, they have apostasized and fallen into forbidden paths and have failed. Of course the gadianton government would never allow such a society, it is almost like such a thing would have to be done under the radar.

Also, I think that you would have to expect to be accused of being "clique-ish". It seems that is one of the biggest sins one can commit in LDS society. And yet, such a group, in my opinion, has to be both exclusive (as far as a very high standard and commitment to particpate) and also will be accused of being an "echo chamber" - i.e. such a group I think the people would have to have a very high level of unity, agreement, consensus. That doesn;t mean everyone has to be a clone of everyone else, in fact there would be a need for massive variety in interests, skills, and so forth. But I think that there would be a need for oneness on basic principles (as discussed in the unity thread.)

I also think that Zion will need to be established, not thru a church program, but by individuals. I have thought much about the Inklngs (a discussion group that both C.S Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien were members of). I almost wonder if such a discussion group could not provide the seed of developing a Zion community. I have wondered if the "four minute man" speeches and dinners are not an attempt in this direction.

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tmac
captain of 1,000
Posts: 4526
Location: Reality

Re: People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

Post by tmac »

Mes and OI, while I completely agree with both of you, and definitely believe it is something to aspire to, when it comes to bridging the gap between theory and reality, my own conclusion is that until we experience a much higher degree of adversity and opposition, in terms working together on any kind of a large scale basis, human nature will probably doom most such attempts. I think history will show that only the refiner's fire of serious adversity and opposition can test the mettle and forge the metal of genuine unity.

When SHTF, and people are seriously humbled, and a major cleansing occurs, it will spontaneously happen much easier than it would right now – even though we have much more resources at our disposal – but obviously that’s part of the problem.

The unity thread really got me thinking. Although agreement on basic core principles is important, ultimately that is not what creates true unity. The same principle applies in that context. Time in and time out, nothing, it seems, has been as effective at unifying the Children of God as Satan, the adversary and opposition. A unified force emerged to fight Satan in the War in Heaven. We had to choose sides, and both sides were unified against each other. As far as I can tell there has never been a time when all God's children have ever been completely unified. Even in the greatest recorded example of unity on this Earth – the City of Enoch – it was not until after the adversary sought to destroy the city that its people were forged by opposition to fight the adversary that they became truly unified and a Zion people/society. Same with the Nephites, when they began to live “after the Manner of Happiness” after splitting from the Lamanites. The opposition they faced from the Lamanites played as big a role in their unity and resulting happiness as anything. And the same thing happened over and over again in the BOM. As Lehi observed, it seems that there must needs be opposition in all things, and it is that very opposition that actually creates the conditions for success.

In my observation and experience, it is only in the face of opposition – many times serious opposition – that true unity is forged. I suspect that in the end Zion and the New Jerusalem will be no different. In the meantime, opposition and adversity are probably some of the biggest missing ingredients . . . but if I don't miss my guess, they're probably not too far around the corner.

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