People's Markets; bartering; local and home production

[mes5464]

I gather from Fairminded and Jonesde that there are some drawbacks to Sanpete. I find the water rights to be a key problem and I don't understand how that works.

With that said, I do know this. Before this thread ever started I was directed in pray to move and shown Manti. My wife and I have since fasted and been to the temple to pray about our choice to move. I have had several dreams about what I am supposed to be a part of in Utah since then. We are making a considerable sacrifice in this move, as we are leaving behind very sweet setup as we live in a great location surround by family (my mother on my left, my in-laws on my right).

There maybe other places that one might consider as more suitable but Sanpete is the place that Father is sending me.

[jonesde]

I gather from Fairminded and Jonesde that there are some drawbacks to Sanpete. I find the water rights to be a key problem and I don't understand how that works.

...

There maybe other places that one might consider as more suitable but Sanpete is the place that Father is sending me.

Sanpete County may very well be the best place. Anyone can find issues with places they've lived, and that is probably mostly what you're seeing here about issues in Sanpete. With water there are some funny things in Sanpete because of water rights down stream in the very dry area around Delta, UT, but in reality water rights are an issue in most places in the mountain west.

As for politics, they are pretty bad in most places in Utah. LDS people in government positions often consider their job to practically be a calling and that government should enforce every policy and personal behavior practice taught by the Church. There might be some good things about that, but to do so they trample on all sorts of personal and property rights, partly to make their jobs easier and partly to keep the funding going for their support. If only they would consider the lay ministry approach of the LDS Church as a guideline for proper government... then politicians would be unpaid (maybe reimbursement for expenses only) and they would all have experience in the real world and no dependence of funds from taxation.

Anyway, this also isn't unique to Utah... though Utah is one of the few places where you'll hear ridiculous ideas like police officers and government officials are held to a higher standard than "civilians"... which is somehow the opposite of the rest of the country, and really the world, and somehow also not supported by statistics or by news stories.

In Sanpete be especially careful during the summer festivals as the city, county, and state cops go CRAZY trying to collect extra road revenue. You'll see lots of "construction" areas with no work going on to drop speed limits and increase fines. In one drive on a busy Saturday going between Mount Pleasant and Ephraim I counted 8 cops (including city, county, and state)... making it an average of one cop per 2 miles of highway. It is bad enough that every little town has at least one police officer on duty during the day and multiple police vehicles, even tiny towns like Spring City with around 1000 people.

Land in Sanpete is a LOT more expensive than other areas of the Utah, notably: Duchesne, Uintah, Millard, and Beaver that all have inexpensive small lots available in agricultural areas (though many cheaper lots are not themselves suitable for agriculture). That said, Sanpete is fairly wet and productive compared to many parts of Utah where agriculture is common (ie not including the total desert areas where of course there is not much agriculture). It may be that there is more animal feed than human feed grown in Sanpete, but that could be changed. In the mean time, there is a lot of animal raising in Sanpete (cows, sheep, goats, turkeys, chickens, elk, etc).

The mountains around Sanpete are also some of the best in Utah with lots of lush plant life that isn't common down lower in the valleys (but under deep snow in the winter). In the mountains east of Sanpete there are hundreds of miles of roads for ATVs and snowmobiles, and a few good hiking trials here and there as well. All towns in Sanpete allow ATVs on the roads (with a few exceptions in downtown areas), so you can go on rides from your front door.

Farm land with water rights sufficient to grow stuff is around $15K per acre in Sanpete, and the cheapest land (not really suitable for farming) only gets down to about $7k per acre, but not usually in really small lots. Some people to live off grid and in alternative houses, but many have had run-ins with local govt because of this. Usually this results in extra work and expense, and dealing with the bureaucracy, and sometimes it results in being evicted by the Sheriff from your own home.

One great thing about Sanpete is that it is fairly remote, but still within an hour drive of city areas and around two hours from the Salt Lake airport. That is probably the main reason for higher real estate prices in Sanpete compared to comparable land in Duchesne or Millard counties that are further from Utah County (and less accessible during winter for Duchesne).

Anyway, there are definitely a lot of advantages to Sanpete County and it really is a nice place to live. It's colder than Utah County and a the Salt Lake area during the winter, but cooler during the summer. It's mostly laid back and there a surprising number of people that are into preparedness and sustainable living. There are informal groups doing meetings, classes and outings on all sorts of topics, and a lot of spirit of working together. There are also a LOT of people that don't like local laws and have all sorts of information structures and things that are kept quiet and out of view of the local gads.

The greatest political and cultural sins here are probably being from Salt Lake or Utah County, and having money. If local politicians think you are in those categories they will see you as a source of money, even if you don't have much money. For me it was kind of like being a tall white guy in Mexico, same pattern but not as extreme. If you live an economically conservative lifestyle and stick around for a while, things get easier. This is a very real thing in Sanpete, as it is in many areas. I've seen both sides of it since I was from Utah County and while not wealthy I probably earn more than many people in Sanpete and my income comes 100% from outside the county (usually from outside the state and sometimes from outside the country). I've been targeted clearly because of that. On the other hand, my wife's parents both grew up in Sanpete and are well known there, and she still has quite a bit of family in Ephraim and Manti.
Because of that I've received preferential treatment in a couple of cases, even if it wasn't expected or requested (including one questionable building code situation involving a surprise visit...).

In any case, the population is small enough in Sanpete that there is a possibility of major change, and there seems to be grassroots change already starting in many ways. I'm only in Sanpete for 3-4 months out of the year these days, but I still look forward to my time there. The wilderness is close by, beautiful, and diverse. Many of the people there are also great to be around and work with too.

[bobhenstra]

http://www.waterquality.utah.gov/images ... te_gwq.jpg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bob

[sadie_Mormon]

Additionally, a constitutionally minded sheriff will have to be elected that will stand up to unconstitutional federal authorities that attempt to exert influence in the county.

Sheriff Joe!!

[Tesla]

I would love to be part of a community like this thread is referring to.
We bought 5 acres in the panhandle of Idaho for $35,000 it is beautiful with mountains surrounding it. We can see no one from our property. We are 1/2 mile from the county road. This property is owner financed and the owner is desperate to sell more of these 5 to 10 acre parcels. At one point, he offered no money down. My guess is he would do it again.
There are almost zero building codes here. On the county website it says: "If you build a home and the roof caves in on you, you will know better next time".
There is more freedom here than any where we have looked. Utah is full of regulations.
Send me a PM if you are interested in this land.

[tmac]

Many (especially outside the Church) believe the Idaho Panhandle is an ideal location for this sort of thing. Anyone who has ever looked at Jim Rawles' survival blog website, and particularly his thorough analysis of "bug-out" locations, including a state-by-state comparison, is well-acquainted with the glowing terms he uses to describe that area -- which is also where he lives. On these sorts of subjects, I have spoken often of Homestead Heritage in Elm Mott, Texas. For a variety of reasons, they too are in the process of establishing another satellite location in the Idaho Panhandle. Surprisingly, they have experienced some resistance from neighbors and the local community, who are apparently concerned about what they might do.

On that score, I think it would be very difficult to go almost any place, including Manti, Sanpete County, etc., and be welcomed with open arms by most neighbors and the local community. In almost all cases, most people will be suspicious and judgmental about what is going on and label the participants of such proactive ventures as "lunatic fringe," especially if there is much of a "group" involved. The Amish and Mennonites can get away with it to some extent because their beliefs and lifestyle (including this type of cooperation) are fairly well known. They already have a substantial amount of credibility, and most people don't seem to feel threatened by them. I seriously doubt the same would be true of a group of LDS making a serious attempt at such a venture. And it is virtually guaranteed that their biggest critics and naysayers would come from within the Church.

[sadie_Mormon]

Really enjoy reading this thread. Has some great ideas. Even if you couldn't live on the land if you buy it you can always know you have it in the future when you need it. My friend purchased 15 acres near Sodona AZ and I'm not sure what she was thinking when she did that! Talk about water problems.

[BroJones]

The LA Times talks about the "Redoubt" of the mountain west:

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... full.story" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The American Redoubt, where survivalists plan to survive

When society collapses, they intend to be armed and well fed in the high country of the Northwest. James Wesley Rawles is their guru on the subject.


Photo: Chuck Baldwin, speaking in Reno in 2011, is a conservative preacher and radio host who has bought into the survivalist message of James Wesley Rawles. (Gage Skidmore)

By Kim Murphy, Los Angeles Times February 8, 2012, 8:10 p.m.


Reporting from Spokane, Wash.—
The American Redoubt: It lies in the rural high country of Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, eastern Washington and Oregon.

For a growing number of people, it's the designated point of retreat when the American economy hits the fan. When banks fail, the government declares martial law, the power grid goes down. When warming oceans flood the coasts and a resurgent Russia takes out targets on the Eastern Seaboard.

Though white separatists for years have called for a racial homeland in the inland Pacific Northwest, an even bigger movement of survivalists, Christian fundamentalists and political doomsayers is fueling the idea of a defensible retreat in the high country west of the Rockies.

Armed with stocks of brown rice, weapons, battery-operated radios and razor wire, many are preparing isolated homesteads that can quickly be turned into armed fortifications when groceries disappear from stores and hordes of desperate city-dwellers flee a flu pandemic or run out of oil.

The guru of the movement is James Wesley Rawles, a former Army intelligence officer and author of the bestselling novel "Survivors: A Novel of the Coming Collapse." The book tells of military veterans who lead bands of tough-minded Americans through a period of marauding rioters and the collapse of the supply chain and technology, and of a provisional government "determined to take over America and destroy the freedoms upon which it was built."

Rawles, who got his start as an editor at Defense Electronics magazine and a technical writer at Oracle Corp., in 2005 started what has become one of the country's most widely read survival blogs, which claims to attract up to 300,000 unique visitors a week. He published one of the bibles of modern survivalist tactics, "How to Survive the End of the World as We Know It," in 2009.

Places like northern Idaho and western Montana have always been ripe territory; the low mountains around Bonners Ferry, Idaho, and Montana's Flathead Valley have long had more than their share of cabins populated by wary loners. But now Rawles has given a name to this idealized retreat — the American Redoubt — and framed the geography.

It's impossible to say how many have heeded the call — analysts say it's probably not all that many so far — but adherents say that's because the need is only now becoming apparent. Boise was home to a survivalist trade show last year featuring electric generators, dehydrated food and water-purification devices.

With the rising federal debt and prospects for another credit crisis, Rawles said in a telephone interview, "it could turn into a full-scale economic rout in short order. And under circumstances like that, I have encouraged my readers for many years to relocate themselves in lightly populated agricultural regions that are well removed from major population centers, where there'll be large-scale rioting and possibly looting in the event of an economic crisis."

Rawles has already beaten his retreat, but don't ask him to where.

The most he'll say is he lives on a ranch — presumably in Redoubt territory — west of the Rocky Mountains. He has livestock, he has three years' worth of food stockpiled, he has a functioning garden and he's got the weapons he needs to hold back the hordes if they find him.

"Because of the nature of my blog, I'm in an almost unique situation, in that I might be considered the go-to guy for 160,000 survival blog readers," Rawles, 51, said of the secrecy surrounding his location.

"I don't want to be that guy. I don't want anyone knowing where I live, because some morning I may wake up and find my barnyard full of tents and yurts and RVs."

A 'crossover' following

On his blog, one of a large and growing number of survivalist websites, Rawles emphasizes that he is a "non-racist" — that Christians, Messianic Jews and Orthodox Jews are welcome to join the retreat, no matter what their race. Buddhists and "New Age crystal channelers," on the other hand, would be better advised to retreat elsewhere. He pays homage to "Galt's Gulch," novelist Ayn Rand's concept of a hidden retreat for disaffected capitalists.

"The preparedness movement has grown at the fastest rate I have seen in my entire lifetime — faster than in the late '70s, when the Iran hostage crisis had people very concerned, much faster than in the late '90s, when people were concerned about Y2K," Rawles said. The interview was conducted on a phone with the area code he had when he lived in Livermore, Calif.

"I think a substantial amount of society, in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina and the Japanese earthquake and tsunami and nuclear meltdowns, people have definitely recognized the fragility of society and they're taking rational steps to mitigate the risks," he said.

While the majority of his readers are conservative Christian Republicans, he said, "there's a tremendously large and growing segment of my readership that are left of center, Birkenstock-wearing greenies. There's as much crossover with the folks that are interested in local sustainable agriculture and green building techniques as there is with the tea party movement."

In Idaho and northwestern Montana, hotbeds of American Redoubt sentiment, websites offer help finding jobs in the new homeland until the time for full retreat is at hand, as well as lists of sympathetic churches ("reformed" congregations dominate the A-list). Some feature real estate agents capable of finding that 20-acre hilltop parcel, invisible from the road, with its own solar power. (Try Revolutionary Realty in northern Idaho or IdahoJoe Realty, run by Joe Rohner of Boise, who bills himself as a "redoubt realtor.")

"Interest is growing. A lot of people have come here, and a lot that none of us know about, because a lot of them do it on their own," Rohner said. "It's a growing movement that's not very centralized, and probably never will be, because these people tend to be kind of secretive anyway."

Chuck Baldwin, a prominent conservative preacher and radio host — and 2008 presidential candidate for the Constitution Party — has bought in.

"Over a period of about three years, my family and I ... just really put our heads together and tried to look at some of the things we saw coming. And we came to the conclusion that where we had lived for over 30 years probably was not where we wanted to stay, in light of what we saw on the horizon," Baldwin said in an interview. He decamped from Florida with his grown children, their families and his in-laws to Kalispell, Mont., in 2010.

"I hope and pray that things don't get drastic. But at the same time, only a very foolish and naive person could think that America can continue to spiral into this deficit-spending ... money system that we have established over the last few decades," said Baldwin, who is now a candidate for lieutenant governor in Montana.

Looking toward the future

In a message to his supporters, Baldwin credited Rawles' vision of the American Redoubt for helping shape his own vision for his family's future.

"It is our studied opinion that America is headed for an almost certain cataclysm," Baldwin wrote. "As Christians, we suspect that this cataclysm could include the judgment of God. As students of history, we believe that this cataclysm will most certainly include a fight between Big-Government globalists and freedom-loving, independent-minded patriots. I would even argue that this fight has already started."

Concerning allegations that some of Montana's white separatists have attended his church services, Baldwin is dismissive.

"To try to associate our move here with some kind of a racist bent is lunacy," he said. "When you talk about depriving people of their normal accessibility to food and medicine and clothing and shelter and things that are part and parcel of what we would consider normal life, I don't think that's racial at all."

Baldwin has appropriated some of Rawles' checklist items on his own website for those he is now encouraging to populate the Redoubt.

Develop a home-based business, he says; bring your guns; home-school your kids.

"Make a clean break by selling your house and any rental properties," he advises. "You aren't coming back."

[bobhenstra]

The small town I live in (in Utah) is already set up like ideas being suggested on this thread. Only thing is, we're not totally there yet i.e. we're not living like what will be required when all hell breaks loose. Simply because at present we don't have to! Walmart, Smiths, Payson Market is just up the street, but when "AHBL" they won't be there, and because we know that, it won't take us long to adapt! Only way I'll starve is if a gang invades my home, kills me (I won't be able to eat ), and takes all my food----but guaranteed, they'll leave a lot of their dead behind! We live far enough from large population centers that the gangs from there will have a difficult time getting to us, local gangs will be a problem, but not for long! Security plans have already been set up, one of the reasons I'm doing a lot of reloading!

I remember being lectured by my grandmother, her explaining to me when the great depression started her family had nothing, at first they suffered, then they adapted, and inside a year they were living just fine. People who didn't adapt killed themselves, or suffered greatly from starvation.

"My" little town is prepared to adapt! But again, I suggest if you wish to do all the things being talked about on this thread, you try really hard to keep things simple. We're going to be forced back into living a very simply life exactly like what happened in the last depression.

Every month I purchase another sealed can of heritage seeds, because of my age and health I won't be planting them, but blessing those who will, those who will adapt and make it into the millennium while still in mortality, hopefully my own children will be among them!

Bob

[mes5464]

Jason posted a reference to D&C 59:16. I read all of section 59 and the following quote struck me as relavent to this thread.

My take on these verses is:
If we keep the commandments the "fulness of the earth" can provide for us all we need. I think many of us are struggling to provide for ourselves today (myself in particular) because we are not keeping the commands and relying of the earth to provide for us, everything we need. When I say everything, note that Christ lists our needs; food, medicine, clothing, housing, a barn, orchards, gardens, vineyards. My wife have been talking about these verses today and we feel like we need to return to basics. Our goal is to simplify our lives.

16 Verily I say, that inasmuch as ye do this, the fulness of the earth is yours, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and that which climbeth upon the trees and walketh upon the earth;

17 Yea, and the herb, and the good things which come of the earth, whether for food or for raiment, or for houses, or for barns, or for orchards, or for gardens, or for vineyards;

18 Yea, all things which come of the earth, in the season thereof, are made for the benefit and the use of man, both to please the eye and to gladden the heart;

19 Yea, for food and for raiment, for taste and for smell, to strengthen the body and to enliven the soul.

20 And it pleaseth God that he hath given all these things unto man; for unto this end were they made to be used, with judgment, not to excess, neither by extortion.

[tmac]

Just got my latest issue of Stockman Grass Farmer. Allan Nation's editorial column focuses on local food production and marketing. I found this observation interesting:

It may be a sign of today's poor economy, but our roadsides are thick with pickup truck vendors selling everything from shrimp to sweet potatoes, and our small city now supports four farmers' markets.

[mes5464]

Just got my latest issue of Stockman Grass Farmer. Allan Nation's editorial column focuses on local food production and marketing. I found this observation interesting:

It may be a sign of today's poor economy, but our roadsides are thick with pickup truck vendors selling everything from shrimp to sweet potatoes, and our small city now supports four farmers' markets.

This is good news!

[Jason]

Just got my latest issue of Stockman Grass Farmer. Allan Nation's editorial column focuses on local food production and marketing. I found this observation interesting:

It may be a sign of today's poor economy, but our roadsides are thick with pickup truck vendors selling everything from shrimp to sweet potatoes, and our small city now supports four farmers' markets.

I'll shoot you an email but that has been my thought lately as well. There certainly seems to be a lack of venue in SLC....at least for products. We do have some roadside stands but one of the only winter farmer's markets is a hole in the wall shop on State street with not much in the way of goods.

[Juliette]

I gather from Fairminded and Jonesde that there are some drawbacks to Sanpete. I find the water rights to be a key problem and I don't understand how that works.

...

There maybe other places that one might consider as more suitable but Sanpete is the place that Father is sending me.

Sanpete County may very well be the best place. Anyone can find issues with places they've lived, and that is probably mostly what you're seeing here about issues in Sanpete. With water there are some funny things in Sanpete because of water rights down stream in the very dry area around Delta, UT, but in reality water rights are an issue in most places in the mountain west.

As for politics, they are pretty bad in most places in Utah. LDS people in government positions often consider their job to practically be a calling and that government should enforce every policy and personal behavior practice taught by the Church. There might be some good things about that, but to do so they trample on all sorts of personal and property rights, partly to make their jobs easier and partly to keep the funding going for their support. If only they would consider the lay ministry approach of the LDS Church as a guideline for proper government... then politicians would be unpaid (maybe reimbursement for expenses only) and they would all have experience in the real world and no dependence of funds from taxation.

Anyway, this also isn't unique to Utah... though Utah is one of the few places where you'll hear ridiculous ideas like police officers and government officials are held to a higher standard than "civilians"... which is somehow the opposite of the rest of the country, and really the world, and somehow also not supported by statistics or by news stories.

In Sanpete be especially careful during the summer festivals as the city, county, and state cops go CRAZY trying to collect extra road revenue. You'll see lots of "construction" areas with no work going on to drop speed limits and increase fines. In one drive on a busy Saturday going between Mount Pleasant and Ephraim I counted 8 cops (including city, county, and state)... making it an average of one cop per 2 miles of highway. It is bad enough that every little town has at least one police officer on duty during the day and multiple police vehicles, even tiny towns like Spring City with around 1000 people.

Land in Sanpete is a LOT more expensive than other areas of the Utah, notably: Duchesne, Uintah, Millard, and Beaver that all have inexpensive small lots available in agricultural areas (though many cheaper lots are not themselves suitable for agriculture). That said, Sanpete is fairly wet and productive compared to many parts of Utah where agriculture is common (ie not including the total desert areas where of course there is not much agriculture). It may be that there is more animal feed than human feed grown in Sanpete, but that could be changed. In the mean time, there is a lot of animal raising in Sanpete (cows, sheep, goats, turkeys, chickens, elk, etc).

The mountains around Sanpete are also some of the best in Utah with lots of lush plant life that isn't common down lower in the valleys (but under deep snow in the winter). In the mountains east of Sanpete there are hundreds of miles of roads for ATVs and snowmobiles, and a few good hiking trials here and there as well. All towns in Sanpete allow ATVs on the roads (with a few exceptions in downtown areas), so you can go on rides from your front door.

Farm land with water rights sufficient to grow stuff is around $15K per acre in Sanpete, and the cheapest land (not really suitable for farming) only gets down to about $7k per acre, but not usually in really small lots. Some people to live off grid and in alternative houses, but many have had run-ins with local govt because of this. Usually this results in extra work and expense, and dealing with the bureaucracy, and sometimes it results in being evicted by the Sheriff from your own home.

One great thing about Sanpete is that it is fairly remote, but still within an hour drive of city areas and around two hours from the Salt Lake airport. That is probably the main reason for higher real estate prices in Sanpete compared to comparable land in Duchesne or Millard counties that are further from Utah County (and less accessible during winter for Duchesne).

Anyway, there are definitely a lot of advantages to Sanpete County and it really is a nice place to live. It's colder than Utah County and a the Salt Lake area during the winter, but cooler during the summer. It's mostly laid back and there a surprising number of people that are into preparedness and sustainable living. There are informal groups doing meetings, classes and outings on all sorts of topics, and a lot of spirit of working together. There are also a LOT of people that don't like local laws and have all sorts of information structures and things that are kept quiet and out of view of the local gads.

The greatest political and cultural sins here are probably being from Salt Lake or Utah County, and having money. If local politicians think you are in those categories they will see you as a source of money, even if you don't have much money. For me it was kind of like being a tall white guy in Mexico, same pattern but not as extreme. If you live an economically conservative lifestyle and stick around for a while, things get easier. This is a very real thing in Sanpete, as it is in many areas. I've seen both sides of it since I was from Utah County and while not wealthy I probably earn more than many people in Sanpete and my income comes 100% from outside the county (usually from outside the state and sometimes from outside the country). I've been targeted clearly because of that. On the other hand, my wife's parents both grew up in Sanpete and are well known there, and she still has quite a bit of family in Ephraim and Manti.
Because of that I've received preferential treatment in a couple of cases, even if it wasn't expected or requested (including one questionable building code situation involving a surprise visit...).

In any case, the population is small enough in Sanpete that there is a possibility of major change, and there seems to be grassroots change already starting in many ways. I'm only in Sanpete for 3-4 months out of the year these days, but I still look forward to my time there. The wilderness is close by, beautiful, and diverse. Many of the people there are also great to be around and work with too.

My family is out of debt and meets all the requirements. I just want to be the Mayor! Root Beer in all the fountains!

[jonesde]

My family is out of debt and meets all the requirements. I just want to be the Mayor! Root Beer in all the fountains!

Juliette: I think maybe you meant to reply to this post from mes:

Anyway, there are some thoughts on possible approaches:

1. preferential sub-economy growing into a self-sustaining sub-community
2. semi-independent government subject to an existing government (ie Honduras development zones, or something like that but not official and much more risky in the USA)
3. totally new place build on floating communities in international waters
4. an independent community project similar to the Free State Project

jonesde, thank you for laying out the picture for us. I think you have sparked what I think is the right idea.

I think a Zion movement must be in the mountain west of the USA to be in line with what the prophets have spoken. To be in line with ETB statement that the Constitution will not be saved in Washington DC but by this people (LDS) in the mountain west.

Of all the four possibilities you have listed, I think #4 is the write choice.

I propose that we start a Zion Free City Project with Sanpete being the target county.
We can start a new city to begin with and make it independent of the county by having our own water, roads, schools, etc. Do not accept Federal, State, or County dollars for anything. We invite people, under covenant, to join the project and move there. I think a condition of joining the group is they can't have ANY debt. I think debt is one of the hardest bonds of Babylon for anyone to break. We can eliminate a lot of tax burden and regulation with just the city at first. I think it will attract a lot of people to it.

We can just keep the goal simple to start and then extend the goal once we have completed the Free City. I think this will provide a way for the People's Market to thrive and will give people a place to start to rebuild their lives with a Zion city in mind.

We could be the next City of Enoch! I am liking this idea.

Unfortunately the debt requirement would exclude me. In fact, I'm guessing it would exclude quite a few people, including just about anyone who bought a house in 2004-2007, especially younger people who were getting into their first homes and had no choice but to get a sizable loan (80% or thereabouts) in order to buy. A lot of people face either foreclosure, or living with the debt.

Personally with a failed marriage a few years ago and two failed businesses in '07 and '08 (both of which had been running for about 3 years), I've still got years of indentured servitude left before I'm a free man again, unless God sees fit to bless me with some mercy... but quite the opposite has been the trend. If this disqualifies me for Zion, I suppose I'll make do. Hopefully at least my family can separate from me and make it in. Splitting apart families seems to be the solution for many wives to debt problems these days, and maybe that'll continue if this sort of requirement is part of qualification for Zion.

[BroJones]

If you have decent metals, that may help with the debts incurred from house prices plumetting. Lots of people got bit hard by that crash. Just be prepared to sell metals at the appropriate time... I'm guessing later THIS year. 2012.

Juliette:

My family is out of debt and meets all the requirements. I just want to be the Mayor! Root Beer in all the fountains!

Funny you should mention mayor. Our current mayor is hmmm... needing replacing IMO. I spoke to Jack Monnett last weekend about this -- and he says he will seriously consider running for mayor!
(Spring City UT)

As for fountains -- there is a famous fountain fed by a spring that runs clear water downtown Spring City. Runs year round. Delicious!

[Juliette]

If you have decent metals, that may help with the debts incurred from house prices plumetting. Lots of people got bit hard by that crash. Just be prepared to sell metals at the appropriate time... I'm guessing later THIS year. 2012.

Juliette:

My family is out of debt and meets all the requirements. I just want to be the Mayor! Root Beer in all the fountains!

Funny you should mention mayor. Our current mayor is hmmm... needing replacing IMO. I spoke to Jack Monnett last weekend about this -- and he says he will seriously consider running for mayor!
(Spring City UT)

As for fountains -- there is a famous fountain fed by a spring that runs clear water downtown Spring City. Runs year round. Delicious!

And speaking of fountains, the gospel of Jesus Christ is a fountain of truth:

Teachings of Joseph Smith

The gospel of Jesus Christ embraces all truth; the faithful accept the truths God has revealed and put aside false traditions.

“Mormonism is truth; and every man who embraces it feels himself at liberty to embrace every truth: consequently the shackles of superstition, bigotry, ignorance, and priestcraft, fall at once from his neck; and his eyes are opened to see the truth, and truth greatly prevails over priestcraft. …

“… Mormonism is truth, in other words the doctrine of the Latter-day Saints, is truth. … The first and fundamental principle of our holy religion is, that we believe that we have a right to embrace all, and every item of truth, without limitation or without being circumscribed or prohibited by the creeds or superstitious notions of men, or by the dominations of one another, when that truth is clearly demonstrated to our minds, and we have the highest degree of evidence of the same.”5
5. Letter from Joseph Smith to Isaac Galland, Mar. 22, 1839, Liberty Jail, Liberty, Missouri, published in Times and Seasons, Feb. 1840, pp. 53–54; spelling and grammar modernized

[Juliette]

Back to the bartering thread:

Historically, bartering was especially useful after humans dropped their nomadic ways and settled down to farming and living in communities. A wheat farmer can't live on bread alone, but he can trade some of his surplus yield to a cattle rancher in exchange for some meat. Or, the farmer can sell wheat to a hungry worker who has the skills to build him a new plow. With the new plow, the farmer can grow even more wheat for the next harvest with, and he can trade for more stuff. In these exchanges, each gets something he considers more valuable than what he gives up.
The plot thickens when the farmer needs something in particular, such as an ox for pulling that plow, and the only person who has oxen to trade doesn't need wheat -- but is willing to trade for corn. At this point, the farmer tries to find a corn farmer who's willing to trade for wheat and then use that corn to trade for the ox. Trading between three parties is called triangular barter. It would be further complicated if the corn farmer doesn't like wheat either, and the wheat farmer enters into a multilateral barter with even more people to eventually get an ox. Or, what if the farmer runs out of wheat and must resort to promising shares of next year's harvest?

[mes5464]

I have found two new reasons to like the idea of moving to Sanpete County.

Christensen Arms (every county should have its own arms manufacturer)
http://christensenarms.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Zip Kit Homes
http://www.zipkithomes.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[tmac]

Both seem to be great local businesses in Sanpete County . . . and there are plenty of others too.

[mes5464]

Both seem to be great local businesses in Sanpete County . . . and there are plenty of others too.

Can you send me a list? I want to contact them and send them my resume. I got a call from the Church Employment office today and he told me that I need to be proactive and contact business for whom I would like to work.

[jonesde]

Both seem to be great local businesses in Sanpete County . . . and there are plenty of others too.

Can you send me a list? I want to contact them and send them my resume. I got a call from the Church Employment office today and he told me that I need to be proactive and contact business for whom I would like to work.

There are some great ones, but I don't know about employment opportunities. Most businesses in the area, even ones that produce neat stuff, are small operations with very few employees or even run part time by whoever owns them with a teenager or two to help out. There's a guy in Spring City that does custom knives, and another that does pottery. There are lots of smaller retail shops and eateries.

So, I don't know about these in terms of employment, but some other good companies in the area are:

Satterwhite Log Homes
http://www.slh.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Timberline Range Camps
http://sheepcamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maple Leaf Food
http://mapleleafcompanyfood.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are quite a few farms and ranches in the area, but those tend to be really low wage jobs. In fact, I think in general jobs in the area are low wage. There are some govt institutions like Snow College in Ephraim and the State Prison in Gunnison that employ quite a few people.

For IT type stuff, I'm not aware of anything. 100% of my income comes from outside Sanpete (and outside of Utah actually), which is part of why I end up traveling so much. Most of time I can work remotely, so I do get to spend some time there in Sanpete, but as a place to live not as a place to work.

If you want to earn in Sanpete chances it'll have to be in your own business, unless you have REALLY low income requirements. If you do have a small business, you customers should be mostly outside of Sanpete... pretty much all businesses in Sanpete are that way.

Quite a few people commute to Nephi or the Spanish Fork area, and a LOT of people have homes in both Sanpete and Utah or Salt Lake counties. Some people spend weekends in Sanpete, and others just use them for summer or vacation homes.

[mes5464]

Both seem to be great local businesses in Sanpete County . . . and there are plenty of others too.

Can you send me a list? I want to contact them and send them my resume. I got a call from the Church Employment office today and he told me that I need to be proactive and contact business for whom I would like to work.

There are some great ones, but I don't know about employment opportunities. Most businesses in the area, even ones that produce neat stuff, are small operations with very few employees or even run part time by whoever owns them with a teenager or two to help out. There's a guy in Spring City that does custom knives, and another that does pottery. There are lots of smaller retail shops and eateries.

So, I don't know about these in terms of employment, but some other good companies in the area are:

Satterwhite Log Homes
http://www.slh.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Timberline Range Camps
http://sheepcamps.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Maple Leaf Food
http://mapleleafcompanyfood.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There are quite a few farms and ranches in the area, but those tend to be really low wage jobs. In fact, I think in general jobs in the area are low wage. There are some govt institutions like Snow College in Ephraim and the State Prison in Gunnison that employ quite a few people.

For IT type stuff, I'm not aware of anything. 100% of my income comes from outside Sanpete (and outside of Utah actually), which is part of why I end up traveling so much. Most of time I can work remotely, so I do get to spend some time there in Sanpete, but as a place to live not as a place to work.

If you want to earn in Sanpete chances it'll have to be in your own business, unless you have REALLY low income requirements. If you do have a small business, you customers should be mostly outside of Sanpete... pretty much all businesses in Sanpete are that way.

Quite a few people commute to Nephi or the Spanish Fork area, and a LOT of people have homes in both Sanpete and Utah or Salt Lake counties. Some people spend weekends in Sanpete, and others just use them for summer or vacation homes.

jonesde,

Maybe I need you to be my mentor. I have not been very good at finding work as a computer contractor. Do you feel like mentoring?

[jonesde]

Maybe I need you to be my mentor. I have not been very good at finding work as a computer contractor. Do you feel like mentoring?

I'm not sure I could help a whole lot. The only thing I really know how to do is work without pay until someone comes along who is willing to pay. I do this with open source software.

When I got started I was taking odd jobs to survive for about 18 months while putting all my free time into a new open source project (now Apache OFBiz) before I was able to step out and do consulting full-time based on it. When I'm billing I can make pretty good money, but I usually work 1-2 hours unpaid for every paid hour.

There are now quite a few individuals and small consulting groups all over the world doing consulting work and building commercial products based on OFBiz. Now I'm still mostly consulting based on OFBiz, but have started another project (http://www.moqui.org" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) to replace it... and that's where my free time goes, except the last few months when I decided to dive into that survival book I posted about elsewhere here.

Anyway, there are some really nice things about doing this sort of consulting, but it is a lot of work. I also usually end up working for smaller companies as clients, which is far more stressful than working for large companies with their huge budgets and project time frames. Sometimes travel is required, but usually great pay... making $4-8k per week is well worth the travel.

Getting started is pretty easy... but it can take a while to get the money flowing. If you're already experienced with development all you have to do is learn about the stuff and start building something that others might find useful, or join the project mailing lists and do research and answer questions. By doing those things you get your name out there and sooner or later someone will ping you for a job. Sometimes people post jobs looking for people, but if you can demonstrate knowledge and experience by what you build and contribute to an existing project or release in your own project then people come to you and the interviews are a heck of a lot easier.

I've done this for about 11 years and I couldn't imagine going back to a salaried job. That would require far more time and location commitment, and unless I got a director or C-level position I wouldn't make nearly as much money. I was the CTO for an 80 person consulting and wannabe-product company for a while, but that company fell apart and while I made more there, I don't miss the extra commitment it involved.

[tmac]

Mes, sorry I wasn't in the position to attempt to post any sort of list before now. Jonesde's is a good one. And as he mentions, many of the jobs in Sanpete County will not be the highest paying, but you would be in the same shoes as many who live in the valley -- although more and more are commuting to the Wasatch Front. There are a lot of tech jobs in Utah County, and it wouldn't be considered much of stretch to commute to one of them from Sanpete County.

The other company in Sanpete County that does employ a lot of people, and I have seen them advertising to hire for at least a dozen middle management to executive-level positions in the past year, is Moroni Feed Company. I have written about them before. The name is deceptive. Moroni Feed company is a producer-owned co-op that has quite a bit going, including production, processing and marketing of over 100,000,000 lbs of "Norbest" turkey annually. This is a company with gross annual sales of over $125,000,000. I realize that's nothing compared to many large cap companies, but that's pretty good for Sanpete County. The last job I saw, and I thought I forwarded the link to you, was for an inventory manager. Maybe you missed my post. MFCo has had a lot of turn-over this past year and is working hard to turn the company around, so they've been trying to bring in some new blood.

And here's the other thing: Current MFCo Management essentially worships, and tries to copy-cat the turkey industry giants, many of whom have big operations in the Carolinas. I don't know what, if any, experience you might have with any of these companies, but if you were to simply say that you're from So. Carolina, and tweak your resume in such a way that makes it look like you have any kind of experience working with/for any of these companies, you might have MFCo drooling. It's a unique situation that way.

A couple links for you to consider, one for Sanpete County, and one for Utah County:

https://jobs.utah.gov/jsp/utahjobs/seek ... ton=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

(Looks like the MFCo Inventory Manager job is gone, but there are a couple openings at Snow College, and the webpage job in Ephraim is probably for CO Buildings, a local metal building manufacturer, that is a good outfit)

https://jobs.utah.gov/jsp/utahjobs/seek ... ton=Search" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously, there are a lot more jobs in Utah County, but they are not always a lot higher paying either.