This forum is for discussion of Secret Combinations: who/what they are and how to overcome them. "A secret combination that seeks to overthrow the freedom of all lands...is increasing its evil influence and control over America and the entire world." (ETB / Ether 8:18-25.)

What do you think about Joseph Fielding Smith's moon prophecy?

He spoke out about something quasi-political. As a Church official, he should have known to leave well enough alone.
6
4%
It was his personal opinion and he was wrong about it. Big deal.
45
33%
I think this is proof he was a "false prophet."
1
1%
He's human...sometimes even Prophets or Apostles get stuff wrong.
25
19%
Joseph Fielding Smith was right about the moon, and still is to this day.
58
43%
 
Total votes : 135

Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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I think it's telling that so many on this thread look down their noses and scoff at those who think that maybe the prophet was right.

Is the idea that we never went to the moon harder to believe than the idea that God himself and his son appeared to a 14 year old boy? That an angel later appeared to him and told him where to find a book of gold scripture? That he translated this scripture by the use of seer stones at first and the whisperings of the spirit later? What about the belief that Jesus of Nazareth somehow took upon himself the sins of all, and that after he was crucified he took up his life again?

If you believe in LDS doctrine you already believe in things that cannot be proved and are superstitious, sensational and silly in the eyes of the world. Why all the condescension toward those who doubt the narrative of the moon landing given to us by a gadianton led government?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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firend wrote:It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly


Or we wanted to beat the Russians so we faked the first moon landing, but went later.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Looking Forward wrote:
firend wrote:It should be obvious that the public footage of the moon landing was faked. The argument should be:

either we went to the moon, found pyramids and human remains proving we are not alone, even maybe pre-flood technology

or we never went to the moon and wanted to beat russia supposedly


Or we wanted to beat the Russians so we faked the first moon landing, but went later.


right, ya that could be the third "or" i forgot to add, thanks
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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patriotsaint wrote:I think it's telling that so many on this thread look down their noses and scoff at those who think that maybe the prophet was right.

Is the idea that we never went to the moon harder to believe than the idea that God himself and his son appeared to a 14 year old boy? That an angel later appeared to him and told him where to find a book of gold scripture? That he translated this scripture by the use of seer stones at first and the whisperings of the spirit later? What about the belief that Jesus of Nazareth somehow took upon himself the sins of all, and that after he was crucified he took up his life again?

If you believe in LDS doctrine you already believe in things that cannot be proved and are superstitious, sensational and silly in the eyes of the world. Why all the condescension toward those who doubt the narrative of the moon landing given to us by a gadianton led government?

The Prophet (not an apostle as was JFS), Pres. Monson, clearly stated that we've been to the moon. His words are directly from him and you and I can even watch him say it by watching GC re-runs.

JFS, after becoming the Prophet, was asked about his earlier moon comments. His reply- "Well, I was wrong wasn't I?"
And to be clear, Elder Smith's exact words were these-

"...it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to make any instrument or ship to travel through space and visit the moon or any distant planet"

From his grandson-

As to the men on the moon issue, I was present on at least one occasion when President Smith said it. It was a Sunday dinner at our house. My grandfather, Oscar W. McConkie, had asked President Smith if he thought the Lord would allow us to get to other worlds and communicate with the people on them. President Smith indicated that he did not. He reasoned that because the atonement that Christ worked out on this earth applies to all the creations of the Father, that our getting to other worlds and discovering that they had the same Savior and the same plan of salvation would dispense with the necessity of our accepting the gospel on the basis of faith. To dramatize the point he said, "I don't even think the Lord will let men get to the moon." I concurred with President Smith's reasoning then and do so now. What he said, in my judgment, was right. The illustration he used to dramatize his point has since proven to be in error. It, however, has nothing to do with the point he was making. To dismiss everything else he said on the basis of one faulty illustration is, I would suggest, a far greater error and may frankly be grounds to question whether those saying it deserve credence, not whether Joseph Fielding Smith does.

So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson? Or do you look down and scoff at those that believe him?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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shadow wrote:The Prophet (not an apostle as was JFS)


Are not the 12 sustained as prophets, seers and revelators? This argument is no argument in my mind.

shadow wrote:So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson? Or do you look down and scoff at those that believe him?


Have I scoffed at anyone in this thread? All I have done is point out that we believe some pretty fantastic things in the church, so I don't get the super critical attitude toward those who have doubts regarding the moon landing.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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FYI, FAIR has an article on this topic: http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... n_the_Moon


Latter-day Saint doctrine allows prophets their own opinions and views, which are not regarded as either infallible or binding upon Church members. Only Jesus Christ was perfect; LDS prophets follow the biblical model of being fallible men of their time called by God to accomplish his purposes. So safeguard against the foibles or mistakes of individuals, God uses the united voice of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve apostles to establish official doctrine and interpretation.
No one need trust a prophet's word alone on any issue—either of great or small importance. All members are encouraged to seek their own revelation from God, and to accept and act on the truth that he reveals to them by scriptures, by prophets, and by the Holy Ghost.


Supporting Data

In the first edition of his work Answers to Gospel Questions, Joseph Fielding Smith wrote:
The Savior said that preceding his coming there would be signs in the heavens. No doubt there will be appearances of commotion among the heavenly bodies. We are informed by prophecy that the earth will reel to and fro. This will make it appear like the stars are falling. The sun will be darkened and the moon look like blood. All of these wonders will take place before Christ comes. Naturally the wonders in the heavens that man has created will be numbered among the signs which have been predicted—the airplanes, the guided missiles, and man-made planets that revolve around the earth. Keep it in mind, however, that such man-made planets belong to this earth, and it is doubtful that man will ever be permitted to make any instrument or ship to travel through space and visit the moon or any distant planet (italics added).[1]
Attempting to make this is a "prophesy," or a declarative statement of Church doctrine is improper, for the following reasons:
President Smith was not the president of the Church when this statement. Only the President of the Church, sustained by his counselors and the Quorum of the Twelve, may declare new official doctrine.
The statement merely expresses doubt about the idea, clearly an expression of personal belief or conclusion.
Latter-day Saints do not believe in the doctrine of prophetic infallibility.
Following the Apollo moon landings and the death of President David O. McKay, President Smith became president of the Church. At a press conference following his assumption of Church leadership, he was asked by a reporter about this statement. President Smith replied:
Well, I was wrong, wasn't I?[2]
A grandson of President Smith noted:
Growing up as a son of Bruce R. McConkie and a grandson of Joseph Fielding Smith had its moments. One of the experiences that my brothers and sisters and I shared regularly was to listen to people make disparaging remarks about our father or grandfather in Sunday School or other church classes. You could pretty well depend on the fact that if someone quoted either Elder McConkie or President Smith, that someone else would immediately respond with some kind of an insulting retort. I don't think it bothered any of us to have someone disagree with our father or grandfather, we just couldn't understand why the disagreement seemed so mean-spirited. One of the classic responses that is made to discredit anything Joseph Fielding Smith said is to remind everyone that he said that men would never get to the moon. The idea being that if he said one thing that was incorrect then how can we possibly be expected to believe anything else he said....
As to the men on the moon issue, I was present on at least one occasion when President Smith said it. It was a Sunday dinner at our house. My grandfather, Oscar W. McConkie, had asked President Smith if he thought the Lord would allow us to get to other worlds and communicate with the people on them. President Smith indicated that he did not. He reasoned that because the atonement that Christ worked out on this earth applies to all the creations of the Father, that our getting to other worlds and discovering that they had the same Savior and the same plan of salvation would dispense with the necessity of our accepting the gospel on the basis of faith. To dramatize the point he said, "I don't even think the Lord will let men get to the moon." I concurred with President Smith's reasoning then and do so now. What he said, in my judgment, was right. The illustration he used to dramatize his point has since proven to be in error. It, however, has nothing to do with the point he was making. To dismiss everything else he said on the basis of one faulty illustration is, I would suggest, a far greater error and may frankly be grounds to question whether those saying it deserve credence, not whether Joseph Fielding Smith does.[3]
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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His status as a true prophet does not mean he is prophesying at all times with every word uttered or written.


There is not a shred of evidence that he intended those words to be taken as a prophetic statement.


The United States DID NOT and has never left an orbit path around the earth. That was all Hollywood and done only because the Russian's made it first to a point far enough away to be in black sky. The scientists at NASA are bright, but by not fully disclosing what they do not know, they are truthfully conning the public. The truth is that NASA does not even fully understand gravity and to be honest I do not believe the "curious" mars lander either.

But these are exciting times, as we are on the verge of realizing powerful simple truths, that man has done a phenomenal job devising explanations and has come extremely close to being correct, but have none the less fallen short of the truth. Which there would be nothing wrong with it until they do things like imply they do understand orbits and gravity well enough to slingshot around the moon, which is a complete lie. No man has ever journeyed so far from the earths surface, that they orbited another celestial body other than earth, at least not a body of flesh and blood.

Gravity and inertia of celestial body's motion is not the only the only force that keeps thing in their orbit path. What they do not tell you of is the "vibration" of everything. Without our solar system experiencing what is only described as a brownian-like Celestial movement, things like the moon only showing one side and the orbits of comets would not be observed as they currently are.

There is no reason to discount a prophet for the statements JFS made, especially not based upon the fact that the the majority of the world believes the hoax put together because of NASA was a little but hurt over the Russian advancements and could not deal with being shown up.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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shadow wrote:So the question is- Do you believe Pres. Monson?

No, I don't. And...?
Were we supposed to? Do you expect us to, because of that comment?

Do you believe Pres. Packer when it comes to vaccines being good, and the folly of natural immunization?
Did you believe the leaders about statements before, about homosexual sexual desire?
Did you believe the leaders about the Blacks never getting the priesthood?

Hey, swords can be double-edged! :D
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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JohnnyL wrote:

Hey, swords can be double-edged! :D

That was the point I was making.
Remember, it was JFS's words that were used to bolster the position that man didn't go to the moon (note the title of the thread). Turns out he said he was wrong. Turns out a prophet said we did go to the moon. Fortunately the moon trip, whether it happened or not, has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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man did not go to the moon, sorry. Truth is truth. Only the 1% will find their way through the mist of darkness.

In fact, it really does not matter. I have heard and seen the evidence. We have sent rovers and ships to the moon but not man.

One word. Radiation. Any man that goes out of the protective shield of the magnetosphere would die of radiation sickness. The shielding in the 1960 was just not enough to protect the men.

Why didn't the Russians go to the moon? Why has no one but us gone to the moon. Are you kidding me. Look at the south pole every nation on the world is there exploring. The moon is even better. The Russian for sure would of went if they could of.

Just be aware that these people will stop at nothing to keep their power. They want more power and they want to make you a slave. Lets keep that in mind.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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shadow wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:
Hey, swords can be double-edged! :D

That was the point I was making.
Remember, it was JFS's words that were used to bolster the position that man didn't go to the moon (note the title of the thread). Turns out he said he was wrong. Turns out a prophet said we did go to the moon. Fortunately the moon trip, whether it happened or not, has absolutely nothing to do with my salvation.

I don't think he said "I was wrong." ;)
Did he go back to it? No...
If he had said, "It was fake"--then or later--how would that have changed the course of church history?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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In a 1972 press conference when JFS was made president of the church he was asked about that quote. He said "I was wrong wasn't I."
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Nan wrote:In a 1972 press conference when JFS was made president of the church he was asked about that quote. He said "I was wrong wasn't I."

"wasn't I"--is that a confirmation, or a question? Is there an actual voice recording, I'd love to hear it. You might be right.
What was he going to do, say it was fake?? Seriously, if he had straight revelation it was fake, what do you think he would have said?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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He was admitting he was wrong about it.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Nan wrote:He was admitting he was wrong about it.

"wasn't I"--is that a confirmation, or a question? Is there an actual voice recording, I'd love to hear it. You might be right.
What was he going to do, say it was fake?? Seriously, if he had straight revelation it was fake, what do you think he would have said?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Nan wrote:In a 1972 press conference when JFS was made president of the church he was asked about that quote. He said "I was wrong wasn't I."

That answers the opening question as far as JFS's own opinion, then. It would appear that he didn't think it an earthshaking mistake to believe it and be in error.

(As for me, the jury is still out on whether or not the trip to the moon was actually made.)
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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I really don't have an opinion one way or the other, but two points:

1. If you look at fairmormon.org website you will see that the quote credited to Pres Smith "Well, I was wrong, wasn't I?" was based on someone's personal reminiscence.
http://en.fairmormon.org/Mormonism_and_ ... n_the_Moon

2. I think it is part of God's plan that his servants are wrong from time to time on insignificant things to weed out those not truly converted.

But like I said, whether he was wrong or right, it doesn't matter to me.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=20005.0;wap2

Funny I had forgotten one of the best articles on this topic...

Stanley Kubrick seems to be Mr. Photographer, and the tricks he used.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Simply, we did not go to the moon, not then nor ever. Joseph Fielding Smith was right. Don't believe it, research it for yourself.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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heartsongs wrote:Simply, we did not go to the moon, not then nor ever. Joseph Fielding Smith was right. Don't believe it, research it for yourself.

I find the evidence on both sides persuasive, thus I am in the middle. I don't know if we went or not.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Here's a link that has photos in it: http://assassinationscience.com/HowKubr ... ings-1.pdf
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Anyone on Earth with an appropriate laser and telescope system can bounce laser beams off three retroreflector arrays left on the Moon by Apollo 11, 14 and 15.

The following image has the american landing module from Apollo XI on the lunar surface.

Image
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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francisco.colaco wrote:Anyone on Earth with an appropriate laser and telescope system can bounce laser beams off three retroreflector arrays left on the Moon by Apollo 11, 14 and 15.

The following image has the american landing module from Apollo XI on the lunar surface.

Image

So they say. Did man put them there?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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People - come on! We went to the moon OK - Wake up all you people who think you are soooooo awake!
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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JohnnyL wrote:
francisco.colaco wrote:Anyone on Earth with an appropriate laser and telescope system can bounce laser beams off three retroreflector arrays left on the Moon by Apollo 11, 14 and 15.

The following image has the american landing module from Apollo XI on the lunar surface.]


So they say. Did man put them there?


No, of course not, Big Bird and the Cookie Monster did it.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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francisco.colaco wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:
francisco.colaco wrote:Anyone on Earth with an appropriate laser and telescope system can bounce laser beams off three retroreflector arrays left on the Moon by Apollo 11, 14 and 15.

The following image has the american landing module from Apollo XI on the lunar surface.]


So they say. Did man put them there?


No, of course not, Big Bird and the Cookie Monster did it.

Expand your thinking... Did a man have to be there to put them there? Is that the only way?
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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JohnnyL,

Joseph Fielding Smith spoke also of INSTRUMENTED flights not allowed on the moon or space. Are you by the way implying that 1) the picture is false (VLIW is european, runned by ESA, not NASA), 2) aliens did it, or 3) the soviets never did land and operate a fabulous rover on the moon in 1970, nor the martian rovers are real?

That was HIS personal opinion. One is entitled to be quite a dushebag on his personal opinions, and while they have no eternal consequences, man is supposed to have them and discuss them. I believe that humanity will land a man on Mars (if they have the time to do it), but it would take different physics to travel through space into distant stars or galaxies. Physics that we do not have now.

The «I was wrong, wasn't I?» for me tells a tale of someone who knew what he received was not revelation, but personal opinion. If you consider all he uttered revelation, even when clearly marked as opinion, then the Sun should be a planet, not a star (check, it is there).

I can't help feeling that if Joseph Fielding Smith was here to defend himself, he would be rolling on the floor laughing.
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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JohnnyL,

I am afraid, and was warned about this by a kind soul, that my words were not expressed the right way. Thus what I have written will be read with a different meaning by my own fault. I have written « One is entitled to be quite a dushebag on his personal opinions, and while they have no eternal consequences, man is supposed to have them and discuss them.», and that will be naturally red as a personal insult. It is not.

What I meant in anyone (you or ME or anyone else), can and will be quite a dushebag in personal opinions. We, as intelligent and opinionated individuals, tend to believe in the most incredible things (don't make me talk about my own history of past beliefs, unless you want something better than a sitcom).

So, what I meant is that as ling as the opinions do not have eternal consequences (like moon landings, evolution vs creation, democrats vs republicans or, in my case, PSD vs PS vs CDS --- local political parties) the Lord will neither interfere nor guide by revelation. I am sure most scientific books are full of statements that will in time be proven outright false. What I have learned is the Lord does not care. He expexts mankind and individuals to develop their own opinions, to exercise intellect and, occasionally, to be quite silly doing so. You, I and anyone else.

I wouldn't want it any other way ;)

Once again, I am sorry for my terrible expression and I plead for your understanding. (Thanks also, Brian, for not letting this unfortunate mistake pass).
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Re: Was Joseph Fielding Smith wrong about the Moon and Space

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Cool thread. I am surprised with the results. Joseph F was right. In this instance, he knew what he was talking abut.
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