There is so much mis-information floating about on both sides of the issue that it is clear we will never know the truth.
For whatever reasons the government chose to destroy all of the evidence that could have easily been used to resolve the question. The demolitions ordinance that would have been used leaves very easily detected residues and the government could have put this all to rest but instead chose not to. They also did the same at the Oklahoma City bombing, and at Waco when simply leaving the evidence for evaluation and study could resolved all of these questions.
If a private individual or company had destroyed the evidence they would be assumed guilty and prosecuted. Arguing about it now seems a bit futile as we all know no serious investigation will come of it.
Seems like a waste of time because none of us has enough expertise or evidence to prove either side. As ETB said, it is better to be uninformed than mis-informed.
9/11 - Expose the Cover-up
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Army Of Truth
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1828
- Location: Rivers of Babylon
- Contact:
How interesting that you think that I'm calling you ignorant in the "majority of my paragraphs". Hmm, if you would bother to count, you would see that
1) I never called you ignorant
2) I said "ignorant" only one time in my 3rd point and I said "this right here is the epitome of being ignorant". This is obviously not calling you ignorant, but saying that if you think that the steel could have been weakened and/or melted by a 400°C temperature, then that thinking right there is in fact ignorance of not knowing the properties of steel and the properties of fire. One cannot say, as you did, that since we don't know what happened, the steel framed building could very well have melted and/or bent due to a 400°C when that is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY. Do you still have questions as to why 400°C CANNOT MELT/BEND/BREAK STEEL-FRAMED BUILDINGS IN THE REAL WORLD???
Was that civil enough for you?
I've read all of your information that you've given me which is full of theories, hearsay, and myths with NO REAL HARD EVIDENCE. Again, if you disagree, why don't you give your evidence to NIST or FEMA as they can't even make these theories into facts.
Please go and read all the links I've given you as I can tell you haven't. If you have, you would have answers to all of the questions that you keep asking me.
1) Here you go again trying to debunk the FACTS with your hearsay evidence that this did not happen. You want evidence? How about this:
Shanghai Baosteel Group Corp. bought 50,000 tons of the scrap steel from "Ground Zero," the ruins of the September 11 terrorist attack, at US $120 each ton. This shipment arrived in China at the end of January 2002.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm
Also check out this site:
http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/2002.html
Glenn Corbett, a fire science professor at John Jay College is one of many eyewitnesses to this fact.
So again, your SUSPENDED LAW OF PHYSICS theory is the real "IF" theory as these laws CANNOT magically happen on 9/11 because wtc7 and both towers were "underbuilt" and/or "not built up to standards" as all the official conspiracy theory supporters seem to repeat over and over.
2) Great clips! You need to play that clip from the beginning and you will see that it is not damaged from the start of the collapse, and also these squibs appear on the other side as well. So that makes your point moot.
3) This theory gets better every time you tell it. So mr. usmani says that the steel "expands" at 400°C. Do you know what this statement implies? This implies that any time any building burns, it is in danger of expanding and therefore COLLAPSING SYMMETRICALLY. Do you know what temperature a fire is in any burning building? It ranges from 500°C to 650°C. Therefore, according to mr. usmani's theory, ALL BURNING BUILDINGS SHOULD COLLAPSE SYMMETRICALLY AT FREE-FALL SPEEDS since this temperature "expands" steel enough to do this.
4) The windsor building did NOT collapse completely. The steel perimeter columns supporting the slab on the upper floors is the part that collapsed. But remember, the central support system was made of concrete columns, which is very different from WTC. So again, the bottom line is this building burned for over 24 hours, and DID NOT COLLAPSE.
You never seem to address WTC 4, 5, or 6. Here is a page showing the extensive damage of WTC 4 and 6.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Chang ... /t7361.htm
Do you know why these buildings DID NOT collapse when these were right NEXT to WTC 1 and 2? It had all the characteristics of WTC 7, except to a much greater degree. All three of these buildings:
1) Were FULLY engulfed in FLAMES
2) were EXTENSIVELY DAMAGED due to falling debris from WTC 1 & 2.
3) Yet none of these buildings COLLAPSED, nor did anyone report them "creaking".
4) Also, the Liberty Plaza building was the exact same distance from WTC 2 as WTC 7 was from WTC 1, yet this building DID NOT COLLAPSE.
I think you are misleading when you say "damage to the core structure" and "400°C" temperatures "expanded" the steel to cause the collapse.
It's obvious that you are frustrated as you are the one accusing me of calling you ignorant in every paragraph, when again, I said it ONE TIME and it didn't refer to you. So please stop accusing me of something I DID NOT do.
Here is a video showing molten steel which is great evidence of thermate as Dr. Jones has already proven with his piece of molten iron he has tested.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... c+thermite
And here are testimonies of molten steel at the wtc site and thermal hot spots evidence:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... steel.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... fires.html
I don't know if you've read Dr. Jones paper, but there are dozens of witnesses to this molten steel. Here is an exerpt:
"The government reports admit that the building fires were insufficient to melt steel beams -- then where did the molten metal come from?"
1) I never called you ignorant
2) I said "ignorant" only one time in my 3rd point and I said "this right here is the epitome of being ignorant". This is obviously not calling you ignorant, but saying that if you think that the steel could have been weakened and/or melted by a 400°C temperature, then that thinking right there is in fact ignorance of not knowing the properties of steel and the properties of fire. One cannot say, as you did, that since we don't know what happened, the steel framed building could very well have melted and/or bent due to a 400°C when that is a physical IMPOSSIBILITY. Do you still have questions as to why 400°C CANNOT MELT/BEND/BREAK STEEL-FRAMED BUILDINGS IN THE REAL WORLD???
Was that civil enough for you?
I've read all of your information that you've given me which is full of theories, hearsay, and myths with NO REAL HARD EVIDENCE. Again, if you disagree, why don't you give your evidence to NIST or FEMA as they can't even make these theories into facts.
Please go and read all the links I've given you as I can tell you haven't. If you have, you would have answers to all of the questions that you keep asking me.
1) Here you go again trying to debunk the FACTS with your hearsay evidence that this did not happen. You want evidence? How about this:
Shanghai Baosteel Group Corp. bought 50,000 tons of the scrap steel from "Ground Zero," the ruins of the September 11 terrorist attack, at US $120 each ton. This shipment arrived in China at the end of January 2002.
http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Jan/25776.htm
Also check out this site:
http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/2002.html
Glenn Corbett, a fire science professor at John Jay College is one of many eyewitnesses to this fact.
So again, your SUSPENDED LAW OF PHYSICS theory is the real "IF" theory as these laws CANNOT magically happen on 9/11 because wtc7 and both towers were "underbuilt" and/or "not built up to standards" as all the official conspiracy theory supporters seem to repeat over and over.
2) Great clips! You need to play that clip from the beginning and you will see that it is not damaged from the start of the collapse, and also these squibs appear on the other side as well. So that makes your point moot.
3) This theory gets better every time you tell it. So mr. usmani says that the steel "expands" at 400°C. Do you know what this statement implies? This implies that any time any building burns, it is in danger of expanding and therefore COLLAPSING SYMMETRICALLY. Do you know what temperature a fire is in any burning building? It ranges from 500°C to 650°C. Therefore, according to mr. usmani's theory, ALL BURNING BUILDINGS SHOULD COLLAPSE SYMMETRICALLY AT FREE-FALL SPEEDS since this temperature "expands" steel enough to do this.
4) The windsor building did NOT collapse completely. The steel perimeter columns supporting the slab on the upper floors is the part that collapsed. But remember, the central support system was made of concrete columns, which is very different from WTC. So again, the bottom line is this building burned for over 24 hours, and DID NOT COLLAPSE.
You never seem to address WTC 4, 5, or 6. Here is a page showing the extensive damage of WTC 4 and 6.
http://s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Chang ... /t7361.htm
Do you know why these buildings DID NOT collapse when these were right NEXT to WTC 1 and 2? It had all the characteristics of WTC 7, except to a much greater degree. All three of these buildings:
1) Were FULLY engulfed in FLAMES
2) were EXTENSIVELY DAMAGED due to falling debris from WTC 1 & 2.
3) Yet none of these buildings COLLAPSED, nor did anyone report them "creaking".
4) Also, the Liberty Plaza building was the exact same distance from WTC 2 as WTC 7 was from WTC 1, yet this building DID NOT COLLAPSE.
I think you are misleading when you say "damage to the core structure" and "400°C" temperatures "expanded" the steel to cause the collapse.
It's obvious that you are frustrated as you are the one accusing me of calling you ignorant in every paragraph, when again, I said it ONE TIME and it didn't refer to you. So please stop accusing me of something I DID NOT do.
Here is a video showing molten steel which is great evidence of thermate as Dr. Jones has already proven with his piece of molten iron he has tested.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... c+thermite
And here are testimonies of molten steel at the wtc site and thermal hot spots evidence:
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... steel.html
http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidenc ... fires.html
I don't know if you've read Dr. Jones paper, but there are dozens of witnesses to this molten steel. Here is an exerpt:
That last quote is the golden question that nobody can answer,Engineers have been trying to figure out exactly what happened and whether they should be worried about other buildings like it around the country… Most of the other buildings in the [area] stood despite suffering damage of all kinds, including fire... ‘Fire and the structural damage …would not explain steel members in the debris pile that appear to have been partly evaporated’, Dr. [Jonathan] Barnett said. (Glanz, 2001; emphasis added.)
The observed “partly evaporated” steel members is particularly upsetting to the official theory, since fires involving paper, office materials, even diesel fuel, cannot generate temperatures anywhere near the 5,000+ oF needed to “evaporate” steel. However, thermite, RDX and other commonly-used explosives can readily slice through steel (thus cutting the support columns simultaneously in an explosive demolition) and reach the required temperatures. (It is possible that some other chemical reactions were involved which might proceed at lesser temperatures.) This mystery needs to be explored – but is not mentioned in the “official” 9-11 Commission or NIST reports.
There are several published observations of molten metal in the basements of all three buildings, WTC 1, 2 (“Twin Towers”) and 7. For example, Dr. Keith Eaton toured Ground Zero and stated in The Structural Engineer,
‘They showed us many fascinating slides’ [Eaton] continued, ‘ranging from molten metal which was still red hot weeks after the event, to 4-inch thick steel plates sheared and bent in the disaster’. (Structural Engineer, September 3, 2002, p. 6; emphasis added.)
The observation of molten metal at Ground Zero was emphasized publicly by Leslie Robertson, the structural engineer responsible for the design of the World Trade Center Towers, who reported that “As of 21 days after the attack, the fires were still burning and molten steel was still running.” (Williams, 2001, p. 3; emphasis added.)
Sarah Atlas was part of New Jersey's Task Force One Urban Search and Rescue and was one of the first on the scene at Ground Zero with her canine partner Anna. She reported in Penn Arts and Sciences, summer 2002,
‘Nobody's going to be alive.' Fires burned and molten steel flowed in the pile of ruins still settling beneath her feet. (Penn, 2002; emphasis added.)
Dr. Allison Geyh was one of a team of public health investigators from Johns Hopkins who visited the WTC site after 9-11. She reported in the Late Fall 2001 issue of Magazine of Johns Hopkins Public Health, "In some pockets now being uncovered they are finding molten steel.” Further information on the subject is available at http://globalresearch.ca.myforums.net/v ... hp?p=11663.
Thus, molten metal was repeatedly observed and formally reported in the rubble piles of the WTC Towers and WTC 7, metal that looked like molten steel. However, scientific analysis, using for example X-ray fluorescence, would be needed to ascertain the actual composition of the molten metal.
I maintain that these published observations are consistent with the use of the high-temperature thermite reaction, used to cut or demolish steel. Thermite is a mixture of iron oxide and aluminum powder. The end products of the thermite reaction are aluminum oxide and molten iron. So the thermite reaction generates molten iron directly, and is hot enough to melt and even evaporate steel which it contacts while reacting. On the other hand, falling buildings (absent explosives) have insufficient directed energy to result in melting of large quantities of metal. The government reports admit that the building fires were insufficient to melt steel beams -- then where did the molten metal come from? Metals expert Dr. Frank Gayle (working with NIST) stated:
"The government reports admit that the building fires were insufficient to melt steel beams -- then where did the molten metal come from?"
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Army Of Truth
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1828
- Location: Rivers of Babylon
- Contact:
Here are two other examples of burning skyscrapers that did not collapse:
The One Meridian Plaza fire (1991) burned from floors 22 to 30 and burned for 19 hours, yet NO COLLAPSE took place. This was a 38 story building.
The First Insterstate Bank fire (1988) burned from 12th floor to 16th and burned for 4 1/2 hours, yet NO COLLAPSE took place - this was a 62 story building
The Caracas Tower fire (2004) burned out of control for 17 hours from the 34th floor to the top, spreading over 26 floors. This was Venezuela's highest skyscraper, a 56-story building. Again, this building DID NOT collapse.
If you can show me examples of a skyscraper that did collapse due to fire, feel free to show me as I haven't found one yet. FEMA can't find one either as they also say that there is no known steel framed skyscraper collapse due to fire.
The One Meridian Plaza fire (1991) burned from floors 22 to 30 and burned for 19 hours, yet NO COLLAPSE took place. This was a 38 story building.
The First Insterstate Bank fire (1988) burned from 12th floor to 16th and burned for 4 1/2 hours, yet NO COLLAPSE took place - this was a 62 story building
The Caracas Tower fire (2004) burned out of control for 17 hours from the 34th floor to the top, spreading over 26 floors. This was Venezuela's highest skyscraper, a 56-story building. Again, this building DID NOT collapse.
If you can show me examples of a skyscraper that did collapse due to fire, feel free to show me as I haven't found one yet. FEMA can't find one either as they also say that there is no known steel framed skyscraper collapse due to fire.
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rcronk
- captain of 100
- Posts: 243
I'm done.
I will address one thing before I leave though. I said that you called me ignorant in the "majority" of your paragraphs. I was wrong. You used the term ignorant or ignorance in 3 of 9 paragraphs. That's 2 paragraphs short of a majority.
You then said that I said that you called me ignorant in "every" paragraph, which I didn't say. So, in a flurry of nit picking, you missed the point I was trying to make, which was that you are becoming uncivil. I will not continue a discussion with you acting like this.
Not only that, but I think we're just contending at this point and both of us just want to be right. We're not listening to each other nor are we making any progress whatsoever. I don't believe contention is a good thing and so I'm walking away. And I'm just as guilty of this as I think you are.
This is difficult to do as there are many things I want to address in your last posts, but I'm walking away anyway because absolutely nothing will come of any further discussion but contention.
Good luck to you and everyone else out there looking for the truth of these things. I really wish we could have found common ground and made progress. If we were making progress, I'd stay, but we're not, so I won't.
No hard feelings.
I will address one thing before I leave though. I said that you called me ignorant in the "majority" of your paragraphs. I was wrong. You used the term ignorant or ignorance in 3 of 9 paragraphs. That's 2 paragraphs short of a majority.
You then said that I said that you called me ignorant in "every" paragraph, which I didn't say. So, in a flurry of nit picking, you missed the point I was trying to make, which was that you are becoming uncivil. I will not continue a discussion with you acting like this.
Not only that, but I think we're just contending at this point and both of us just want to be right. We're not listening to each other nor are we making any progress whatsoever. I don't believe contention is a good thing and so I'm walking away. And I'm just as guilty of this as I think you are.
This is difficult to do as there are many things I want to address in your last posts, but I'm walking away anyway because absolutely nothing will come of any further discussion but contention.
Good luck to you and everyone else out there looking for the truth of these things. I really wish we could have found common ground and made progress. If we were making progress, I'd stay, but we're not, so I won't.
No hard feelings.
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Army Of Truth
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1828
- Location: Rivers of Babylon
- Contact:
Simply showing your Ignorance - the condition of being uneducated, unaware, or uninformed - is not being uncivil. I am ignorant in a lot of things as well and you've insinuated this in many of your previous posts just as I did. Just because I'm pointing it out doesn't make me uncivil as, again, you are being exactly what you accuse me of.
Anyway, I agree, we are not getting anywhere because we each see "Truth" in different ways.
If I offended you, I apologize. I only want to show people the truth that I've found and love debates because the truth never loses. Good luck with your future research, rcronk, and God bless you.
I urge anyone else coming to this blog to
1) Search these truths for yourselfs. Don't take anybody's word for what is truth. The TRUTH is out there - FIND IT.
2) Search and view the pictures and video clips. People on both sides of this argument say things to match their own "truths". Remember that PICTURES and VIDEOS of hard evidence DO NOT LIE. A PICTURE IS WORTH 1000 WORDS.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." – Arthur Schopenhauer
Anyway, I agree, we are not getting anywhere because we each see "Truth" in different ways.
If I offended you, I apologize. I only want to show people the truth that I've found and love debates because the truth never loses. Good luck with your future research, rcronk, and God bless you.
I urge anyone else coming to this blog to
1) Search these truths for yourselfs. Don't take anybody's word for what is truth. The TRUTH is out there - FIND IT.
2) Search and view the pictures and video clips. People on both sides of this argument say things to match their own "truths". Remember that PICTURES and VIDEOS of hard evidence DO NOT LIE. A PICTURE IS WORTH 1000 WORDS.
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." – Arthur Schopenhauer
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Mark
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6929
Army of Truths 9-11 diagram reminded me of something I saw last night on a news talk show. It showed Cindy Sheehan marching arm in arm in Cuba decrying US policy in Iraq and also accusing America of torturing prisoners at Guantanamo Bay. It was pointed out by a Cuban refugee that Castro has tortured and killed thousands of Cubans and continues to disregard any human rights to any Cubans who actually want freedom. Sheehan completely ignored those abuses by the Cuban government and in fact their refusal to allow the Red Cross into their political prisons didn't mean squat to her. She was only concerned about running down the American military prison in Guantanomo in a country that treats their prisoners 100 times worse than terrorists in Guantanamo are treated. It was hypocricy on the highest level by the anti-American hating Sheehan and her marxist liberal buddies like Belefonte and Co. I can just hear Castro and Chavez getting a good belly laugh at these stupid Americans who are manipulated as useful idiots to their cause of painting America in the most negative light possible so that the world will eventually agree that America must go. I'm sure Castro and Chavez cheer heartily every time a new conspiracy theory about American involvement in dirty deeds around the world comes to light.
It is so ironic to me that many here who profess conservative values and beliefs and a love for their country are more than ready to accept any anti-American rhetoric or theory that comes down the pike thereby strengthening anti-American regimes around the world who want everyone to despise America and the west for the freedoms that are still available to their citizens. Why not give your country the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise?
It is so ironic to me that many here who profess conservative values and beliefs and a love for their country are more than ready to accept any anti-American rhetoric or theory that comes down the pike thereby strengthening anti-American regimes around the world who want everyone to despise America and the west for the freedoms that are still available to their citizens. Why not give your country the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise?
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rcronk
- captain of 100
- Posts: 243
Mark! Good point about how Sheehan hypocritically exposed her hatred for America. Whoops.
By the way everyone - I just posted part 4 of my series over at LDSPatriot's blog.
http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/2007/01 ... -me-part-4
By the way everyone - I just posted part 4 of my series over at LDSPatriot's blog.
http://ldspatriot.wordpress.com/2007/01 ... -me-part-4
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ChelC
- The Law
- Posts: 5982
- Location: Utah
Well Mark,
I think you're right and wrong. I don't think we should be quick with accusations, and we should seek to defend America more than to defame her - BUT - Many of us here have put our trust in the leaders of this land, and well, we got hosed! After finally turning our heads and realizing, hey, they're squirting me right in the face, stepping to the side and viewing things from another perspective, wow! Shocking to us was the reality. So at least for me, when that happened I felt ashamed of myself for many reasons. One was that I had trusted men when scriptures warn me not to. Two was that I had not been honest in my analysis of politics. Three was that the scriptures specifically warn of the very behaviors I was seeing in men I had helped to put into office!
Just as my BIL views every potential match as a possible cheater after the affair of his ex wife and doesn't give them as much trust as it would be in his interest to do, I probably guard my trust more carefully too. We need to be sure that we aren't moving our trust from one man to another, but that we stay honest, and seek after truth which slants neither left nor right. We must be willing to follow that truth where it leads, we must constantly step back and keep perspective.
Edited to add that sometimes defaming America is protecting her, just as admitting our personal wrongs helps restore our honor. We shouldn't seek to defame her, but when she has earned defamation, we should admit it, and cleanse her of that filth - that's true love baby!
I think you're right and wrong. I don't think we should be quick with accusations, and we should seek to defend America more than to defame her - BUT - Many of us here have put our trust in the leaders of this land, and well, we got hosed! After finally turning our heads and realizing, hey, they're squirting me right in the face, stepping to the side and viewing things from another perspective, wow! Shocking to us was the reality. So at least for me, when that happened I felt ashamed of myself for many reasons. One was that I had trusted men when scriptures warn me not to. Two was that I had not been honest in my analysis of politics. Three was that the scriptures specifically warn of the very behaviors I was seeing in men I had helped to put into office!
Just as my BIL views every potential match as a possible cheater after the affair of his ex wife and doesn't give them as much trust as it would be in his interest to do, I probably guard my trust more carefully too. We need to be sure that we aren't moving our trust from one man to another, but that we stay honest, and seek after truth which slants neither left nor right. We must be willing to follow that truth where it leads, we must constantly step back and keep perspective.
Edited to add that sometimes defaming America is protecting her, just as admitting our personal wrongs helps restore our honor. We shouldn't seek to defame her, but when she has earned defamation, we should admit it, and cleanse her of that filth - that's true love baby!
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rcronk
- captain of 100
- Posts: 243
Good points ChelC. I'm getting ready to write an article about seeking truth and how our own weaknesses can get in the way of doing that. It seems that one of those weaknesses is a preconceived notion of trust or distrust. That one thing probably affects people more than any other I've seen.
If one already distrusts the government, everything they see is put into that light and government officials' motives are guessed at, etc. I fell into this one once. I saw that my representative (Cannon) put a bill up to be voted on and then didn't vote on it. I assumed that he was trying to look good but then didn't really want the thing to pass. So I wrote him a letter with those assumptions in my mind acting as truth.
Turns out, his daughter had died of cancer and he chose to be with family instead of voting on the bill. Boy did I feel like an idiot.
On the other hand, if we trust people, everything they do can be explained. "They're passing patriot act legislation to catch the terrorists, not to mess with the rest of us," etc. On the other hand, during times of war, freedoms tend to be crumpled a bit for a while - as happened with captain Moroni when dissenters got killed without trials during a time of war.
I can see why these things are described as perplexities.
If one already distrusts the government, everything they see is put into that light and government officials' motives are guessed at, etc. I fell into this one once. I saw that my representative (Cannon) put a bill up to be voted on and then didn't vote on it. I assumed that he was trying to look good but then didn't really want the thing to pass. So I wrote him a letter with those assumptions in my mind acting as truth.
Turns out, his daughter had died of cancer and he chose to be with family instead of voting on the bill. Boy did I feel like an idiot.
On the other hand, if we trust people, everything they do can be explained. "They're passing patriot act legislation to catch the terrorists, not to mess with the rest of us," etc. On the other hand, during times of war, freedoms tend to be crumpled a bit for a while - as happened with captain Moroni when dissenters got killed without trials during a time of war.
I can see why these things are described as perplexities.
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Army Of Truth
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1828
- Location: Rivers of Babylon
- Contact:
What we need to remember is that just because our government is doing it, doesn't mean that it is morally right. Nor does it mean that anyone opposing what our government does is "anti-American". Did you ever think that maybe what the government is doing is anti-American? Remember, our allegiance is to the constitution of the United States, not to the Bush administration. Hence, that is why even Bush pledges to uphold the constitution. Anyone thinking that the Iraq War is constitutional, doesn't fully know the constitution, nor why we are in Iraq in the first place.
As more Americans conclude that the war was a mistake and should be ended, members of the Bush administration, including the president, have sought to shift the reason for the war. Original claims that Saddam was involved in the 9/11 attack, that he was working with bin Laden's al-Qaeda, and that he was planning to use weapons of mass destruction have all evaporated. Now the war is being fought, so we are told, to "wipe out terrorism" or "bring democracy to the Middle East". Where in the constitution is America obligated to do this?!? The tactics being employed have only resulted in increasing the number of terrorists, not only among massive numbers of Iraqis angry about the widespread destruction of their nation, but also among Muslims worldwide who view the American action as a war against their religion.
Everyone needs to remember that the Iraq War is an illegal, unconstitutional war that was started because of a lie, and is continuing because of more lies. So do we follow the Bush regime like sheeple just because it is the "American" thing to do? Or do we follow the constitution like true Americans always have and go against the lies, deceits, and manipulation of the Bush regime? The latter is not being anti-American, but a true American patriot.
Pakistan had more to do with 9/11 than Iraq did. So should the U.S. attack Pakistan next? After all they do have over 162 Billion muslims there and I'm sure we can find some muslims there connected to al-Qaeda in some way, shape, or form. And using the same justification the administration is now using for Iraq, shouldn't we wipe out the "terrorism" there too? Shouldn't we "bring democracy" there to help "bring them freedom" as well? What's next Saudi Arabia? ...oh, right, I forgot, they are further down the list. Iran and Syria are next of course.
Anyone thinking that "crumpling our freedoms" is a good thing needs to do more research on how our nation was founded and why we made our Constitution for this country in the first place. This quote by one of our founding fathers Benjamin Franklin states this clearly:
As more Americans conclude that the war was a mistake and should be ended, members of the Bush administration, including the president, have sought to shift the reason for the war. Original claims that Saddam was involved in the 9/11 attack, that he was working with bin Laden's al-Qaeda, and that he was planning to use weapons of mass destruction have all evaporated. Now the war is being fought, so we are told, to "wipe out terrorism" or "bring democracy to the Middle East". Where in the constitution is America obligated to do this?!? The tactics being employed have only resulted in increasing the number of terrorists, not only among massive numbers of Iraqis angry about the widespread destruction of their nation, but also among Muslims worldwide who view the American action as a war against their religion.
Everyone needs to remember that the Iraq War is an illegal, unconstitutional war that was started because of a lie, and is continuing because of more lies. So do we follow the Bush regime like sheeple just because it is the "American" thing to do? Or do we follow the constitution like true Americans always have and go against the lies, deceits, and manipulation of the Bush regime? The latter is not being anti-American, but a true American patriot.
Pakistan had more to do with 9/11 than Iraq did. So should the U.S. attack Pakistan next? After all they do have over 162 Billion muslims there and I'm sure we can find some muslims there connected to al-Qaeda in some way, shape, or form. And using the same justification the administration is now using for Iraq, shouldn't we wipe out the "terrorism" there too? Shouldn't we "bring democracy" there to help "bring them freedom" as well? What's next Saudi Arabia? ...oh, right, I forgot, they are further down the list. Iran and Syria are next of course.
In response to the Captain Moroni reference, we need to remember that this war was not an illegal, unconstitutional, foreign attack on another country based on false pretense, but a complete defensive war against an attacking Lamanite army. Also remember that Moroni and his men did not line them up and shoot them in cold blooded fashion, but tried to "pull down their pride", yet only after the king-men refused and "did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni" were they killed in self defense. Read these verses for yourselves in Alma 51:13, 17, 18 here:...during times of war, freedoms tend to be crumpled a bit for a while - as happened with captain Moroni when dissenters got killed without trials during a time of war.
I can guarantee you this, if Iraq truly did gather an army and attack the U.S. on our soil, there would not be one soul who would, nor should, object this war as this is a true war protecting, as Moroni puts it, "our God, religion, freedom, our peace, our wives, and our children." This is in stark contrast to our current quagmire in Iraq.13 And it came to pass that when the men who were called king-men had heard that the Lamanites were coming down to battle against them, they were glad in their hearts; and they refused to take up arms, for they were so wroth with the chief judge, and also with the people of liberty, that they would not take up arms to defend their country.
17 And it came to pass that Moroni commanded that his army should go against those king-men, to pull down their pride and their nobility and level them with the earth, or they should take up arms and support the cause of liberty.
18 And it came to pass that the armies did march forth against them; and they did pull down their pride and their nobility, insomuch that as they did lift their weapons of war to fight against the men of Moroni they were hewn down and leveled to the earth.
Anyone thinking that "crumpling our freedoms" is a good thing needs to do more research on how our nation was founded and why we made our Constitution for this country in the first place. This quote by one of our founding fathers Benjamin Franklin states this clearly:
"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both."
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buffalo_girl
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 7085
9-11 Expose the coverup
Couldn’t help attempting to follow your discussion and many observations on WTC 9-11 events. We have each become a bit more conscious of the world in which we live as a consequence of events on that particular day.
One of the greatest blessings we have available to us is the power of discernment; to utilize the spirit of prophecy to discern between right and wrong and between truth and error. There is a subtlety in the latter phrase.
This spirit of prophecy can provide personal revelation to help us determine good from evil in a world intentionally obscured with whited sepulchers, mists of darkness, great and spacious buildings filled with people in the attitude of mocking and even ‘spirits of devils, working miracles (Rev. 16:14)’.
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.” Moroni 7:16
We are admonished to
‘be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.’ D&C 88:78-80
From these scriptures I am prompted to ask:
* Has political policy – domestic and/or foreign - subsequent to 9-11 events invited our nation to do good and to persuade a belief in Christ?
* Are our national ‘chief captains and judges’ endowed with the spirit of revelation and prophecy; as were Gidgiddoni and the Nephite chief judge (3 Nephi 3:19-21) who refused to lead the frightened Nephites into a pre-emptive assault on the Gadianton robbers ‘in their own lands’?
“But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.”
Know this: Those who would destroy our freedom have no conscience, they have and will use any means to insure their control over the earth’s resources and over all humankind. Theirs is an absolute contempt for those they consider beneath them. They view themselves as the elite. They tout our moral laws to manipulate us into believing they abide by those moral laws. Use Moroni 7:16 to measure what men DO over what men say.
One last word: The ‘elite’ use a method called ‘the dialectic’.
In one manifestation of this trick the common people’s freedom of choice is confined to just two narrow points of view. The content of each - along with the public figures that represent these ‘points of view’ - is controlled with the use of catch phrases, labels, buzz words, talking points, press releases, photo ops, etc . Highly emotional aspects are attached to each choice. Instead of questioning the fact that these two choices placed before us are shallow – no choice at all, really - we are whacking each other Punch & Judy style while the entire nation is being looted in broad daylight by those who set us up.
There are a few other tricks used to derail and to neutralize our attempts to bring truth into the open. The following link describes one such technique:
[url]http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation ... acf001.htm
One of the greatest blessings we have available to us is the power of discernment; to utilize the spirit of prophecy to discern between right and wrong and between truth and error. There is a subtlety in the latter phrase.
This spirit of prophecy can provide personal revelation to help us determine good from evil in a world intentionally obscured with whited sepulchers, mists of darkness, great and spacious buildings filled with people in the attitude of mocking and even ‘spirits of devils, working miracles (Rev. 16:14)’.
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.” Moroni 7:16
We are admonished to
‘be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.’ D&C 88:78-80
From these scriptures I am prompted to ask:
* Has political policy – domestic and/or foreign - subsequent to 9-11 events invited our nation to do good and to persuade a belief in Christ?
* Are our national ‘chief captains and judges’ endowed with the spirit of revelation and prophecy; as were Gidgiddoni and the Nephite chief judge (3 Nephi 3:19-21) who refused to lead the frightened Nephites into a pre-emptive assault on the Gadianton robbers ‘in their own lands’?
“But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.”
Know this: Those who would destroy our freedom have no conscience, they have and will use any means to insure their control over the earth’s resources and over all humankind. Theirs is an absolute contempt for those they consider beneath them. They view themselves as the elite. They tout our moral laws to manipulate us into believing they abide by those moral laws. Use Moroni 7:16 to measure what men DO over what men say.
One last word: The ‘elite’ use a method called ‘the dialectic’.
In one manifestation of this trick the common people’s freedom of choice is confined to just two narrow points of view. The content of each - along with the public figures that represent these ‘points of view’ - is controlled with the use of catch phrases, labels, buzz words, talking points, press releases, photo ops, etc . Highly emotional aspects are attached to each choice. Instead of questioning the fact that these two choices placed before us are shallow – no choice at all, really - we are whacking each other Punch & Judy style while the entire nation is being looted in broad daylight by those who set us up.
There are a few other tricks used to derail and to neutralize our attempts to bring truth into the open. The following link describes one such technique:
[url]http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation ... acf001.htm
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SwissMrs&Pitchfire
- Level 34 Illuminated
- Posts: 6047
- Location: Driven
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Swmorgan77
- captain of 100
- Posts: 518
- Location: Bluffdale, UT
- Contact:
LOL very similar to my story, or than the delegate part.ShineOn wrote:Amen, brother. I was all for the Iraq War. I voted for Bush in 2000. I listened to Rush Limbaugh all the time. I was even a delegate for the Republican Party. Then a short time after the Iraq War (sometime in summer of 2003) I heard Condi rice say something like, "We need to learn everything we can about that day (9/11) so that nothing like that can ever happen again." So I did. Oops. I learned too much.
FYI, a lot of other good videos: (I have bought and watched multiple times every video on 9/11)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9/11_consp ... s#Videos_2
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WYp8riot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1609
- Location: WYOMING
I was at work
Being familiar and somewhat versed regarding the enemy within and having studied information sources outside of those controlled by the financial cartels that own and influence the media I was imediate suspect of the enemy within that day when I was interupted at work by the foreman of what was happening on TV.
Understanding exactly who was involved and what role through ignorance or intention officials in government had can be argued forever but it will not change the VERY REAL FACT THAT THERE IS AN ENEMY WITHIN influenced by SATAN that seeks to destroy the freedom of all.
Understanding exactly who was involved and what role through ignorance or intention officials in government had can be argued forever but it will not change the VERY REAL FACT THAT THERE IS AN ENEMY WITHIN influenced by SATAN that seeks to destroy the freedom of all.
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Army Of Truth
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1828
- Location: Rivers of Babylon
- Contact:
“Concerning the United States, the Lord revealed to His prophets that its greatest threat would be a vast worldwide secret combination, which would not only threaten the United States, but also seek to overthrow the freedom of all lands and nations.” – Ezra Taft Benson, General Conference October 1961
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WYp8riot
- captain of 1,000
- Posts: 1609
- Location: WYOMING
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Swmorgan77
- captain of 100
- Posts: 518
- Location: Bluffdale, UT
- Contact:
It is clear the building 7 WAS damaged, and the more informed and responsible controlled demolition advocates DO make note of that fact. It is unfortunate that many feel the need to to claim "no damage" or "little damage" to support the controlled demolition hypothesis because it is not necessary.
People in the so-called 9/11 truth movement need to learn that when you exhaggerate or vary from the facts out of a need to strengthen the presentation of your case, you open yourself up in a way that is not necessary and you damage the crediblity of all of us.
The NATURE of the damage to building 7(being concentraded at the lower end of the side nearest to the towers), as well as the asymmetrical nature of building 7's support structure both argue AGAINST the type of symmetrical collapse that we saw with building 7. As Dr. Jones points out, one would expect a collapse in the direction of the damage as happens often in natural (non-demoltition) collapses where one part of a structure is weakened more than the rest.
A fire just simply is not going to destroy support columns in such an even and simultaneous way as to bring the building down in that fashion or at that speed.
Look at the sections of the Madrid building that burned for over 24 hours with a fire well-fueled with oxygen. Bits and parts at the top were collapsing piecemeal, and the steel frame structure remained intact.
BTW, here is a link to a powerpoint/video I made on the subject. It is pretty exhaustive and non-speculative. I have sold about 60 of these nationwide at bare shipping costs, and I have gotten a lot of feedback from people that this it the film they are most comfortable giving to friends initially. I also got a very good review and request for several copies from Ted Gunderson's office.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... oincidence
High-res version suitable for authoring DVD:
http://www.utah911truth.com/9-11_Coincidence_theory.wmv
People in the so-called 9/11 truth movement need to learn that when you exhaggerate or vary from the facts out of a need to strengthen the presentation of your case, you open yourself up in a way that is not necessary and you damage the crediblity of all of us.
The NATURE of the damage to building 7(being concentraded at the lower end of the side nearest to the towers), as well as the asymmetrical nature of building 7's support structure both argue AGAINST the type of symmetrical collapse that we saw with building 7. As Dr. Jones points out, one would expect a collapse in the direction of the damage as happens often in natural (non-demoltition) collapses where one part of a structure is weakened more than the rest.
A fire just simply is not going to destroy support columns in such an even and simultaneous way as to bring the building down in that fashion or at that speed.
Look at the sections of the Madrid building that burned for over 24 hours with a fire well-fueled with oxygen. Bits and parts at the top were collapsing piecemeal, and the steel frame structure remained intact.
BTW, here is a link to a powerpoint/video I made on the subject. It is pretty exhaustive and non-speculative. I have sold about 60 of these nationwide at bare shipping costs, and I have gotten a lot of feedback from people that this it the film they are most comfortable giving to friends initially. I also got a very good review and request for several copies from Ted Gunderson's office.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... oincidence
High-res version suitable for authoring DVD:
http://www.utah911truth.com/9-11_Coincidence_theory.wmv
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Swmorgan77
- captain of 100
- Posts: 518
- Location: Bluffdale, UT
- Contact:
Re: 9-11 Expose the coverup
Good points. You know there are two forumulae for security. There is the Lord's promise of assistance and protection, and the commandments that that protection is contingent upon and then there is the world's formula which is essentially one of idolotry.buffalo_girl wrote:Couldn’t help attempting to follow your discussion and many observations on WTC 9-11 events. We have each become a bit more conscious of the world in which we live as a consequence of events on that particular day.
One of the greatest blessings we have available to us is the power of discernment; to utilize the spirit of prophecy to discern between right and wrong and between truth and error. There is a subtlety in the latter phrase.
This spirit of prophecy can provide personal revelation to help us determine good from evil in a world intentionally obscured with whited sepulchers, mists of darkness, great and spacious buildings filled with people in the attitude of mocking and even ‘spirits of devils, working miracles (Rev. 16:14)’.
“For behold, the Spirit of Christ is given to every man, that he may know good from evil; wherefore, I show unto you the way to judge; for every thing which inviteth to do good, and to persuade to believe in Christ, is sent forth by the power and gift of Christ; wherefore ye may know with a perfect knowledge it is of God.” Moroni 7:16
We are admonished to
‘be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law of the gospel, in all things that pertain unto the kingdom of God, that are expedient for you to understand; Of things both in heaven and in the earth, and under the earth; things which have been, things which are, things which must shortly come to pass; things which are at home, things which are abroad; the wars and the perplexities of the nations, and the judgments which are on the land; and a knowledge also of countries and of kingdoms—That ye may be prepared in all things when I shall send you again to magnify the calling whereunto I have called you, and the mission with which I have commissioned you.’ D&C 88:78-80
From these scriptures I am prompted to ask:
* Has political policy – domestic and/or foreign - subsequent to 9-11 events invited our nation to do good and to persuade a belief in Christ?
* Are our national ‘chief captains and judges’ endowed with the spirit of revelation and prophecy; as were Gidgiddoni and the Nephite chief judge (3 Nephi 3:19-21) who refused to lead the frightened Nephites into a pre-emptive assault on the Gadianton robbers ‘in their own lands’?
“But Gidgiddoni saith unto them: The Lord forbid; for if we should go up against them the Lord would deliver us into their hands; therefore we will prepare ourselves in the center of our lands, and we will gather all our armies together and we will not go against them, but we will wait till they shall come against us; therefore as the Lord liveth, if we do this he will deliver them into our hands.”
Know this: Those who would destroy our freedom have no conscience, they have and will use any means to insure their control over the earth’s resources and over all humankind. Theirs is an absolute contempt for those they consider beneath them. They view themselves as the elite. They tout our moral laws to manipulate us into believing they abide by those moral laws. Use Moroni 7:16 to measure what men DO over what men say.
One last word: The ‘elite’ use a method called ‘the dialectic’.
In one manifestation of this trick the common people’s freedom of choice is confined to just two narrow points of view. The content of each - along with the public figures that represent these ‘points of view’ - is controlled with the use of catch phrases, labels, buzz words, talking points, press releases, photo ops, etc . Highly emotional aspects are attached to each choice. Instead of questioning the fact that these two choices placed before us are shallow – no choice at all, really - we are whacking each other Punch & Judy style while the entire nation is being looted in broad daylight by those who set us up.
There are a few other tricks used to derail and to neutralize our attempts to bring truth into the open. The following link describes one such technique:
[url]http://www.learn-usa.com/transformation ... acf001.htm
President Kimball described it very well when he said, with prophetic relevance to our time:
"in all ages when men have fallen under the power of Satan and lost the faith, they have put in its place a hope in the "arm of flesh" and in "gods of silver, and gold, of brass, iron, wood, and stone, which see not, nor hear, nor know" (Daniel 5:23) -- that is, in idols....Whatever thing a man sets his heart and his trust in most is his god; and if his god doesn't also happen to be the true and living God of Israel, that man is laboring in idolatry....
We are a warlike people, easily distracted from our assignment of preparing for the coming of the Lord. When enemies rise up, we commit vast resources to the fabrication of gods of stone and steel -- ships, planes, missiles, fortifications -- and depend on them for protection and deliverance. When threatened, we become antienemy instead of pro-kingdom of God; we train a man in the art of war and call him a patriot, thus, in the manner of Satan's counterfeit of true patriotism, perverting the Savior's teaching"
How many times did Moroni defy conventional military wisdom in order to wage a defensive war of fortification, and to cease the "work of death" as soon as possible and make a covenant of peace (even when Zarahemna admitted he would break it)?
He did these things because they entitled the Nephites to the assistance and protection of the Lord, without which he knew they would be doomed.
We have the promise of the very same assistance as inhabitants of this land, and indeed that assistance was manifest on many occasions. Most notably during the war of 1812 where the British forces, having occupied the capital of Washington D.C. were beset by both a Hurracaine AND a tornado in the same night which devestated their forces. Also, at the battle of New Orleans where fog severely decreased the the visiblity for the British but lifted just in time for Jackson's militia to see and fire upon them and with the winds that blew British crossing vessels downstream and made it impossible for them to mass a significant force to advance with.
This assistance is contingent upon the same things that it was contingent upon in Moroni's time. We must serve the God of the land, Jesus Christ, hold to the inspired laws that he gave us (the Constitution D&C 98 ) and trust in the Lord rather than in the idolotrous "arm of the flesh".
