Ron Paul

Discuss principles, issues, news and candidates related to upcoming elections and voting.
Post Reply
User avatar
blondenblueeyed
captain of 100
Posts: 286
Location: Mountain valley of central Utah
Contact:

Ron Paul

Post by blondenblueeyed »

SInce this is Ron Paul Campaign Headquarters here on this forum there is one thing everyone should know....A vote for Ron Paul is nothing more than a vote for Obama. Like it or not, Ron Paul has absolutely NO chance to win. Grin and bear it. :((

Now for all those who are going to get their panties in a wad, I have put on my raincoat so if you want to have a hissy fit and throw tomatoes, knock yourselves out! X(

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Ron Paul

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

A vote for Romney is a vote for Obama. A vote for Obama is a vote for Romney.

Oh, and about this website being the "campaign headquarters for Ron Paul"... what did you expect? This website is entitled LDS FREEDOM Forum. It's like saying: "Hey! There's bees in that beehive!"


The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy.

- Carrol Quigley, Tragedy and Hope

User avatar
marc
Disciple of Jesus Christ
Posts: 10351
Contact:

Re: Ron Paul

Post by marc »

blondenblueeyed wrote:stuff
Where have you been the last couple years? You're way late to the party.

:ymparty:

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

InfoWarrior82 wrote:A vote for Romney is a vote for Obama. A vote for Obama is a vote for Romney.

Oh, and about this website being the "campaign headquarters for Ron Paul"... what did you expect? This website is entitled LDS FREEDOM Forum. It's like saying: "Hey! There's bees in that beehive!"


The argument that the two parties should represent opposed ideals and policies, one, perhaps, of the Right and the other of the Left, is a foolish idea acceptable only to the doctrinaire and academic thinkers. Instead, the two parties should be almost identical, so that the American people can "throw the rascals out" at any election without leading to any profound or extreme shifts in policy.

- Carrol Quigley, Tragedy and Hope
Speaking of Quigley's writings...
The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences.
- Carroll Quigley

And on we go about Ron Paul and his methods of economic slavery....
The ultimate solution will only come with the rejection of fiat money worldwide, and a restoration of commodity money. Commodity money if voluntarily and universally accepted could give us a single world currency requiring no money managers, no manipulators orchestrating a man-made business cycle with rampant price inflation.
— Ron Paul, Congressional Record, March 13, 2001



Will taking the control/regulation of money completely out of the hands of the government (a representative government elected by the people no less) and putting it in the hands of the market make us free? No money managers? No manipulators?
Commodity traders: The trillion dollar club - NEW YORK (Reuters)- For the small club of companies who trade the food, fuels and metals that keep the world running, the last decade has been sensational. Driven by the rise of Brazil, China, India and other fast-growing economies, the global commodities boom has turbocharged profits at the world's biggest trading houses

They form an exclusive group, whose loosely regulated members are often based in such tax havens as Switzerland. Together, they are worth over a trillion dollars in annual revenue and control more than half the world's freely traded commodities. The top five piled up $629 billion in revenues last year, just below the global top five financial companies and more than the combined sales of leading players in tech or telecoms. Many amass speculative positions worth billions in raw goods, or hoard commodities in warehouses and super-tankers during periods of tight supply.

U.S. and European regulators are cracking down on big banks and hedge funds that speculate in raw goods, but trading firms remain largely untouched. Many are unlisted or family run, and because they trade physical goods are largely impervious to financial regulators. Outside the commodities business, many of these quiet giants who broker the world's basic goods are little known.

How big are the biggest trading houses? Put it this way: two of them, Vitol and Trafigura, sold a combined 8.1 million barrels a day of oil last year. That's equal to the combined oil exports of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela.

Or this: Glencore in 2010 controlled 55 percent of the world's traded zinc market, and 36 percent of that for copper.

Or this: publicity-shy Vitol's sales of $195 billion in 2010 were twice those at Apple Inc. As well as the 200 tankers it has at sea, Vitol owns storage tanks on five continents.

U.S. regulations are now pending to limit banks' proprietary trading -- speculating with their own cash. The new rules don't apply to trading firms. "Trading houses have huge volumes of proprietary trading. In some cases it makes up 60-80 percent of what they do," said Carl Holland, a former price risk manager at oil major Chevron Texaco, who now runs energy consultancy Trading Solutions LLC in Connecticut. "They have the most talent, the deepest pockets, and the best risk management."

In addition to proprietary trading curbs, the U.S. regulator voted on October 19 to impose position limits in oil and metals markets. That gives banks who trade futures cause for concern, but since physical players usually receive exemptions to limits -- because they are categorized as bona fide hedgers -- trading firms should go unscathed.

The trading houses' talent and deep pockets translate into incredible power. "Most commodity buyers in the world are price takers. The top trading firms are price makers," said Chris Hinde, editor of London-based Mining Journal. "It puts them in a tremendous position."
http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/10/ ... 9320111021" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

fyi....Glencore is currently in the process of merging with Xtrata for another jump up in control of the market....only thing that possibly stands in the way is GOVERNMENT regulation...

Mega-miner deal set to close soon
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-10-19-mega ... close-soon" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

...Ron Paul and the other Libertarians want to get rid of that government regulation and give the Enron's of the world free reign....who's friend are they and whom are they likely working for??

Mr. Anonymous & The Libertarian Movement
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0812/S ... vement.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eyes on the Prize (Sidebar to Mr. Anonymous)
http://www.thebellforum.com/content.php ... -the-Prize" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1294
Location: Albany, MO
Contact:

Re: Ron Paul

Post by jonesde »

What you've written here Legion sounds more like "capitalism" of the government collaboration sort, not libertarianism. The great false dichotomy of this era is socialism versus capitalism. It is a false dichotomy because both sides of it want big government and fail to mention the option of real small government.

Those on the socialist side of things, or more generally the anti-capitalism side of things, say things like you did: "...Ron Paul and the other Libertarians want to get rid of that government regulation and give the Enron's of the world free reign....who's friend are they and whom are they likely working for??"

In doing so they rightly point out that modern corporations partner with government to force things that would not and could not happen without the unresisted use of force, ie the force that is applied through an agency the majority believes to be "legitimate" or in other words that acts according to the "will of the people". Our current government most absolutely does not, and bigger government will not solve the problem, it will just change it. With a few exceptions the same people will steal from other people under either big government system.

The solution is smaller government. Without the help of the US Govt and many state government the likes of Enron would not exist in the first place. The solution is not to make the beast that created Enron bigger... the solution is to tame that beast so it can't spawn the likes of Enron.

How does that quote go? Capitalism is a way for men to steal from and enslave other men. Socialism is just the opposite.

Personally, I'd rather see less theft and violence in the system... one that removes the force that is causing the problem instead of adding more force to try to solve it.

AGStacker
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1270

Re: Ron Paul

Post by AGStacker »

More nonsense from Legion.

You have a hard time interpreting the meaning of sentences.

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Ron Paul

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Legion wrote:
Speaking of Quigley's writings...
The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences.
- Carroll Quigley

RE-Emphasis added.

The Rothschilds and Rockefellers wouldn't be where they are today if they did not have the government in their pockets.

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

jonesde wrote:What you've written here Legion sounds more like "capitalism" of the government collaboration sort, not libertarianism. The great false dichotomy of this era is socialism versus capitalism. It is a false dichotomy because both sides of it want big government and fail to mention the option of real small government.

Those on the socialist side of things, or more generally the anti-capitalism side of things, say things like you did: "...Ron Paul and the other Libertarians want to get rid of that government regulation and give the Enron's of the world free reign....who's friend are they and whom are they likely working for??"

In doing so they rightly point out that modern corporations partner with government to force things that would not and could not happen without the unresisted use of force, ie the force that is applied through an agency the majority believes to be "legitimate" or in other words that acts according to the "will of the people". Our current government most absolutely does not, and bigger government will not solve the problem, it will just change it. With a few exceptions the same people will steal from other people under either big government system.

The solution is smaller government. Without the help of the US Govt and many state government the likes of Enron would not exist in the first place. The solution is not to make the beast that created Enron bigger... the solution is to tame that beast so it can't spawn the likes of Enron.

How does that quote go? Capitalism is a way for men to steal from and enslave other men. Socialism is just the opposite.

Personally, I'd rather see less theft and violence in the system... one that removes the force that is causing the problem instead of adding more force to try to solve it.
With an MBA from a top 50 US university program you could say I've been well trained in capitalism.

The 800 lb gorilla that you ignore here is that Enron can and will occur without government assistance (long history of large corporations buying their way into government....in other words they had enough power and money to buy government....not as a result of government). That is the stark reality of capitalism (every man looking after his own self interest). The only thing preventing this is government (the collective force of the people). Unrestrained capitalism turns your environment into a living hell hole.

The only solution is a righteous people.....with a balance between socialism and capitalism....with enough government to get the job done.

Anyways if you want to turn a blind eye to what obviously is Ron Paul's intent (letting corporate forces run free)....more power to you....but the reality will be a bitter pill to swallow when you are forced to swallow it.

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

InfoWarrior82 wrote:
Legion wrote:
Speaking of Quigley's writings...
The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences.
- Carroll Quigley

RE-Emphasis added.

The Rothschilds and Rockefellers wouldn't be where they are today if they did not have the government in their pockets.
Your point is??? Why do you think they spend what they spend on propaganda?

Mr. Anonymous & The Libertarian Movement
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0812/S ... vement.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Eyes on the Prize (Sidebar to Mr. Anonymous)
http://www.thebellforum.com/content.php ... -the-Prize" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Buying government and the people's representatives?

...Glencore is currently in the process of merging with Xtrata for another jump up in control of the market....only thing that possibly stands in the way is GOVERNMENT regulation...

Who's their only real threat (besides God)? Isn't it government or the collective will of the people? Breaking up their monopolies? Taking away their power? Enforcing law?

And you want to diminish the government and remove that threat to them???

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

Question - What threat does Ron Paul pose to the elite establishment? Or in other words, what recommendation(s) does Ron Paul advocate that would take away their power and control?

User avatar
InfoWarrior82
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 10861
Location: "There are 15 on the earth today, you can trust them completely." -President Nelson (Jan 2022)

Re: Ron Paul

Post by InfoWarrior82 »

Legion wrote:
Your point is??? Why do you think they spend what they spend on propaganda?

My point is that big corporations require government to secure their monopoly and double standard business practices. They can't dominate without it.



Makes complete sense to me.


jonesde
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1294
Location: Albany, MO
Contact:

Re: Ron Paul

Post by jonesde »

Legion wrote:The 800 lb gorilla that you ignore here is that Enron can and will occur without government assistance (long history of large corporations buying their way into government....in other words they had enough power and money to buy government....not as a result of government). That is the stark reality of capitalism (every man looking after his own self interest). The only thing preventing this is government (the collective force of the people). Unrestrained capitalism turns your environment into a living hell hole.
If government did not grant protections to corporations that individuals do not have, Enron as the entity it was simply would not have existed.

If government did not enforce monopolies on energy extraction, production, and distribution then Enron would have have been able to corner and manipulate the markets the way they did. If the so-called "regulators" had actually been watching as an independent third party would have (as opposed to an informal collaborator as they were), then maybe they would have noticed these manipulations sooner and done something about it.

Without the unconstitutional powers government has claimed Enron could not have done what they did. Enron is just a small example of this too, there is a massive problem with collusion between corporations and government where corporations would not exist and could not do what they do without collaboration with government to use government force.

The solution is to take the teeth away from government, not give them more teeth and just hope they'll use it properly. The idea that perfect behavior is the solution is just avoiding the issue.

Let's say the society was full of mostly perfect people, but some were trying to game the system... what sort of government would the mostly perfect majority setup?

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Ron Paul

Post by jbalm »

jonesde wrote:
Legion wrote:The 800 lb gorilla that you ignore here is that Enron can and will occur without government assistance (long history of large corporations buying their way into government....in other words they had enough power and money to buy government....not as a result of government). That is the stark reality of capitalism (every man looking after his own self interest). The only thing preventing this is government (the collective force of the people). Unrestrained capitalism turns your environment into a living hell hole.
If government did not grant protections to corporations that individuals do not have, Enron as the entity it was simply would not have existed.

If government did not enforce monopolies on energy extraction, production, and distribution then Enron would have have been able to corner and manipulate the markets the way they did. If the so-called "regulators" had actually been watching as an independent third party would have (as opposed to an informal collaborator as they were), then maybe they would have noticed these manipulations sooner and done something about it.

Without the unconstitutional powers government has claimed Enron could not have done what they did. Enron is just a small example of this too, there is a massive problem with collusion between corporations and government where corporations would not exist and could not do what they do without collaboration with government to use government force.

The solution is to take the teeth away from government, not give them more teeth and just hope they'll use it properly. The idea that perfect behavior is the solution is just avoiding the issue.

Let's say the society was full of mostly perfect people, but some were trying to game the system... what sort of government would the mostly perfect majority setup?
It's nice to see that someone finally gets it.

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

InfoWarrior82 wrote:
Legion wrote:
Your point is??? Why do you think they spend what they spend on propaganda?

My point is that big corporations require government to secure their monopoly and double standard business practices. They can't dominate without it.



Makes complete sense to me.

Well may we agree to disagree. I've seen corporations with their own mercenary armies operating in area's with no government by the people....in fact what little government that did exist did so as a result of the corporate control. To each their own on it....but I certainly disagree with this hypothesis based on my personal experience.

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

jonesde wrote:
Legion wrote:The 800 lb gorilla that you ignore here is that Enron can and will occur without government assistance (long history of large corporations buying their way into government....in other words they had enough power and money to buy government....not as a result of government). That is the stark reality of capitalism (every man looking after his own self interest). The only thing preventing this is government (the collective force of the people). Unrestrained capitalism turns your environment into a living hell hole.
If government did not grant protections to corporations that individuals do not have, Enron as the entity it was simply would not have existed.

If government did not enforce monopolies on energy extraction, production, and distribution then Enron would have have been able to corner and manipulate the markets the way they did. If the so-called "regulators" had actually been watching as an independent third party would have (as opposed to an informal collaborator as they were), then maybe they would have noticed these manipulations sooner and done something about it.

Without the unconstitutional powers government has claimed Enron could not have done what they did. Enron is just a small example of this too, there is a massive problem with collusion between corporations and government where corporations would not exist and could not do what they do without collaboration with government to use government force.

The solution is to take the teeth away from government, not give them more teeth and just hope they'll use it properly. The idea that perfect behavior is the solution is just avoiding the issue.

Let's say the society was full of mostly perfect people, but some were trying to game the system... what sort of government would the mostly perfect majority setup?
Enron became Enron as a result of removing government controls....not the other way around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enron" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Government is the only protection the people have.....if you take that away the people will be the toothless ones beholden to the corporate monopolies for their daily bread and law enforcement....

Don't seek to destroy the tool (government)...instead seek to take it back. Unless you want to go back to the feudal ages....

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

Here's an example -
Google Insiders Bail Prior to Stock Plunge

There is nothing like inside information, provided you are on the inside. But heaven forbid should you be on the outside and act on a tip as did Martha Stewart.

Insider Monkey reports Google Inc. (GOOG): Insiders Sold $280M Prior to Crash

Google Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) chairman Eric Schmidt was very active in late September, as he executed 226 transactions in just three days from Sept. 24 to 26, selling off more than 211,000 shares at per-share prices between $742 and $764 per share. He came away with about $158 million.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... nalysis%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously they are able to get away with this as a result of some government collusion. What's the solution (besides repentance and moral principles)?

Do we do away with the respective government regulation because its not being enforced?

Do away with the government completely?

Or take back government and enforce the law?

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »



For example - Copyright ©2009-2012 ZeroHedge.com/ABC Media, LTD.
Note to readers… Many will turn away from the following facts before finishing this research project simply because it creates in oneself a sense of cognitive dissonance – the emotional feeling and knowing that ones beliefs are misguided, and yet believing in them anyway, no matter how undeniably overwhelming the opposing facts are to ones set of beliefs. This tool (the theory of cognitive dissonance) is paramount in the struggle to keep the people under control through advertising, entertainment, media, corporate religions, and political happenstance so that the average and even above-average person is continuously and hopelessly bound… not by facts but by belief in anti-fact. I would only ask that, as in any good scientific experiment, you consider the following well-documented evidence even if it goes against your beliefs, as one must consider all positive and negative variables in any equation before the truth can ever become clear. I promise that by the end of this article, you will have indisputable proof of corruption and subterfuge proving the Audit The Fed bill to be a fraud, and will better understand the Federal Reserve System and its actual power and authority. Consider this a challenge!

http://realitybloger.wordpress.com/2012 ... -ron-paul/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

....and one is hard pressed to call Ron Paul ignorant...

Ron Paul - The American Power Structure (1988)
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6735&hl=en" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

User avatar
Original_Intent
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 13005

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Original_Intent »

Legion wrote:Here's an example -
Google Insiders Bail Prior to Stock Plunge

There is nothing like inside information, provided you are on the inside. But heaven forbid should you be on the outside and act on a tip as did Martha Stewart.

Insider Monkey reports Google Inc. (GOOG): Insiders Sold $280M Prior to Crash

Google Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) chairman Eric Schmidt was very active in late September, as he executed 226 transactions in just three days from Sept. 24 to 26, selling off more than 211,000 shares at per-share prices between $742 and $764 per share. He came away with about $158 million.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... nalysis%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously they are able to get away with this as a result of some government collusion. What's the solution (besides repentance and moral principles)?

Do we do away with the respective government regulation because its not being enforced?

Do away with the government completely?

Or take back government and enforce the law?
Every scam requires a chump, or in the case of the stock market, multiple chumps. In order for the insiders to win, it requires the participation of many outsiders. In order for a casino to win it requires people to gamble.

You can educate people that things are stacked against them. But until they become righteous enough that they do not want to gain something for nothing but would rather honestly improve themselves and others through work, greed will always bring plenty of marks (no offence Mark!) to play and collectively lose.

User avatar
Jason
Master of Puppets
Posts: 18296

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Jason »

Original_Intent wrote:
Legion wrote:Here's an example -
Google Insiders Bail Prior to Stock Plunge

There is nothing like inside information, provided you are on the inside. But heaven forbid should you be on the outside and act on a tip as did Martha Stewart.

Insider Monkey reports Google Inc. (GOOG): Insiders Sold $280M Prior to Crash

Google Inc. (NASDAQ:GOOG) chairman Eric Schmidt was very active in late September, as he executed 226 transactions in just three days from Sept. 24 to 26, selling off more than 211,000 shares at per-share prices between $742 and $764 per share. He came away with about $158 million.
http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot. ... nalysis%29" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Obviously they are able to get away with this as a result of some government collusion. What's the solution (besides repentance and moral principles)?

Do we do away with the respective government regulation because its not being enforced?

Do away with the government completely?

Or take back government and enforce the law?
Every scam requires a chump, or in the case of the stock market, multiple chumps. In order for the insiders to win, it requires the participation of many outsiders. In order for a casino to win it requires people to gamble.

You can educate people that things are stacked against them. But until they become righteous enough that they do not want to gain something for nothing but would rather honestly improve themselves and others through work, greed will always bring plenty of marks (no offence Mark!) to play and collectively lose.
Well said....thus the massive propaganda efforts to the masses....keep the chumps in line. Steer the outsiders where you eventually want the masses to go.

Andrew52
captain of 100
Posts: 907

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Andrew52 »

blondenblueeyed wrote:SInce this is Ron Paul Campaign Headquarters here on this forum there is one thing everyone should know....A vote for Ron Paul is nothing more than a vote for Obama. Like it or not, Ron Paul has absolutely NO chance to win. Grin and bear it. :((

Now for all those who are going to get their panties in a wad, I have put on my raincoat so if you want to have a hissy fit and throw tomatoes, knock yourselves out! X(
It takes much fortitude to speak the truth, and you are correct! Bravo :ymapplause:

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Ron Paul

Post by jbalm »

Get a room.

That was an untrue statement (learn some math, why don't you), and it takes absolutely no fortitude whatsoever to repeat ridiculous hard-core Republican platitudes on the internet.

Andrew52
captain of 100
Posts: 907

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Andrew52 »

jbalm wrote:Get a room.

That was an untrue statement (learn some math, why don't you), and it takes absolutely no fortitude whatsoever to repeat ridiculous hard-core Republican platitudes on the internet.
" Get a room"? Please explain what kind of insinuation you are making. It certainly does take fortitude on this forum to express a differing
opinion. " Learn some math"? Why are you so condescending? I merely agreed and gave her a congratulations for speaking her feelings.
I do think she is correct. We have the right to our opinion you know.

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: Ron Paul

Post by jbalm »

I have a right to my opinion too.

And if you really believe that a vote for anyone but romney = a vote for obama, then yes, you need to learn some basic math.

Andrew52
captain of 100
Posts: 907

Re: Ron Paul

Post by Andrew52 »

jbalm wrote:I have a right to my opinion too.

And if you really believe that a vote for anyone but romney = a vote for obama, then yes, you need to learn some basic math.
I did flunk math! :ymdevil:

User avatar
blondenblueeyed
captain of 100
Posts: 286
Location: Mountain valley of central Utah
Contact:

Re: Ron Paul

Post by blondenblueeyed »

Hey Bunny...no reason to get your hide all in a FLUFF! :D

Post Reply