Ron Paul runs - Ron Paul Wins!

[HeirofNumenorthe Heir Of Numenor]

My response to Legion's comments/questions here: http://www.ldsfreedomforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=22988&p=291913#p291911

Speaking of true principles....what's the stand on Prohibition or drug laws?

Do you have the moral right to point a gun at your neighbor and force him not to drink alcohol or consume drugs? If the answer is No, as it ought to be, you cannot ask the government to do it in your behalf, because the ONLY legitimate authority it has is derived by delegation from you, and you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. (The Benson Principle.)

So called "drug war" is much more devastating than the drugs themselves! (Incidentally, the biggest supporters of anti-drag legislation are the drug cartels, as it is the government prohibition that puts money into drugs, whereas if drugs were not illegal, they would have been dirt cheap, thus ending the violence. As it is well said: "Take the money out of drugs, and you will have taken the violence out of drug war.") It is the immoral use of government force, that created the drug war, and the government likes it, because it uses this immoral war as a pretext to destroy liberty. (They even use this logic to outlaw drinking or sale of raw milk! Have you seen the SWAT raids on raw milk farmers? This is the corrupt and immoral logic in operation.)

What was President Benson's stand on Prohibition? ....speaking of Benson Principles....

Other prophets like Heber J. Grant? George Albert Smith? Spencer. W. Kimball? Gordan B. Hinckley?

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

What was President Benson's stand on Prohibition? ....speaking of Benson Principles....

Other prophets like Heber J. Grant? George Albert Smith? Spencer. W. Kimball? Gordan B. Hinckley?

It was never a commandment from the Lord to force a prohibition. Prophets are entitled to their own opinions like any other man. Joseph Smith clearly taught that it was WRONG and harmful to treat any prophet's opinion as the word of the Lord. This is why Church leaders never taught the people that it was their duty to God to enforce the Prohibition. (Otherwise all who voted to end it should have lost their temple recommends, which was not the case).

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)
http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng

To which I say:

Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38. President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

First Presidency:
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. ... is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.
—LDS Newsroom, "Approaching Mormon Doctrine," lds.org (4 May 2007)

Joseph Smith: "This morning . . . I visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that ‘a prophet is always a prophet'; but I told them that a prophet is a prophet only when he was acting as such" (Joseph Smith, _History of the Church_, 5:265).

Brigham Young at the Provo, Utah Bowery Conference in 1867 Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this church.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Speech in Texas Republican State Convention June 7, 2012

Starts at 3:55

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul's 'Restore America Plan' proposes getting rid of the Department of the Interior. This analysis shows why that is a great idea and how it would help the American economy.
MorphCity 2012 May 30 (Cached)

G. Edward Griffin explains how Ron Paul's 'Restore America Plan' brilliantly combines popular poltical slogans with sound ideological principles. YouTube 2012 May 28

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

What was President Benson's stand on Prohibition? ....speaking of Benson Principles....

Other prophets like Heber J. Grant? George Albert Smith? Spencer. W. Kimball? Gordan B. Hinckley?

It was never a commandment from the Lord to force a prohibition. Prophets are entitled to their own opinions like any other man. Joseph Smith clearly taught that it was WRONG and harmful to treat any prophet's opinion as the word of the Lord. This is why Church leaders never taught the people that it was their duty to God to enforce the Prohibition. (Otherwise all who voted to end it should have lost their temple recommends, which was not the case).

President Marion G. Romney tells of this incident which happened to him:

“I remember years ago when I was a bishop I had President Heber J. Grant talk to our ward. After the meeting I drove him home … Standing by me, he put his arm over my shoulder and said: ‘My boy, you always keep your eye on the President of the Church and if he ever tells you to do anything, and it is wrong, and you do it, the Lord will bless you for it.’ Then with a twinkle in his eye, he said, ‘But you don’t need to worry. The Lord will never let his mouthpiece lead the people astray.’” (Conference Report, October 1960, p. 78.)
http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... t?lang=eng

To which I say:

Millennial Star, Vol 14, Number 38, pages 593-595. [(Apostle Samuel Richards on Nov. 13, 1852, recorded in the Millennial Star, 14:393-395.)] We have heard men who hold the priesthood remark that they would do anything they were told to do by those who preside over them [even] if they knew it was wrong; but such obedience as this is worse than folly to us; it is slavery in the extreme; and the man who would thus willingly degrade himself, should not claim a rank among intelligent beings, until he turns from his folly. A man of God would despise the idea. Others, in the extreme exercise of their almighty authority have taught that such obedience was necessary, and that no matter what the saints were told do by their presidents they should do it without any questions. When Elders of Israel will so far indulge in these extreme notions of obedience as to teach them to the people, it is generally because they have it in their hearts to do wrong themselves.

Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, Section Five 1842-43, p.237-38. President Joseph Smith read the 14th chapter of Ezekiel - said the Lord had declared by the Prophet, that the people should each one stand for himself, and depend on no man or men in that state of corruption of the Jewish church - that righteous persons could only deliver their own souls - APPLIED IT TO THE PRESENT STATE OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS - SAID IF THE PEOPLE DEPARTED FROM THE LORD, THEY MUST FALL - THAT THEY WERE DEPENDING ON THE PROPHET, HENCE WERE DARKENED IN THEIR MINDS, in consequence of neglecting the duties devolving upon themselves, envious towards the innocent, while they afflict the virtuous with their shafts of envy.

First Presidency:
Not every statement made by a Church leader, past or present, necessarily constitutes doctrine. ... is not meant to be officially binding for the whole Church.
—LDS Newsroom, "Approaching Mormon Doctrine," lds.org (4 May 2007)

Joseph Smith: "This morning . . . I visited with a brother and sister from Michigan, who thought that ‘a prophet is always a prophet'; but I told them that a prophet is a prophet only when he was acting as such" (Joseph Smith, _History of the Church_, 5:265).

Brigham Young at the Provo, Utah Bowery Conference in 1867 Brethren, this Church will be led onto the very brink of hell by the leaders of this people. Then God will raise the one mighty and strong spoken of in the 85th Section of the Doctrine and Covenants, to save and redeem this church.

Opinion??? Please....

By the time Elder Heber J. Grant became Church President in 1918, America was in a reform crusade called Prohibition. One year earlier, in December 1917, the U.S. Congress had approved an amendment to the Constitution making the production and sale of alcohol illegal; the states ratified the amendment in January 1919. President Grant, a Word of Wisdom advocate, called Prohibition “the greatest financial and moral blessing that has ever come to humanity.” 10 But Prohibition failed to end the alcohol trade, driving it underground instead.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1999/09/the-c ... h?lang=eng

I have never felt so humiliated in my life over anything as that the State of Utah voted for the repeal of Prohibition.

- President Heber J. Grant, Conference, Oct. 1934

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

One of the saddest days in all of Utah's history was when the people, including the Latter-day Saints (for it could not have been done without them), rejected the counsel and urging of the Lord's prophet, Heber J. Grant, and repealed Prohibition long years ago--yet many of those voters had sung numerous times, "We Thank Thee, O God, For A Prophet."

- The Teachings of Spencer. W. Kimball

I go back to the words of Jehoshaphat: “Believe in the Lord your God, so shall ye be established; believe his prophets, so shall ye prosper.” (2 Chr. 20:20.)

There are many little things that test our willingness to accept the word of the prophets. Jesus said, “How often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!” (Matt. 23:37.)

So it has been through the history of mankind, and so it is today. In our own communities, even here in Utah, we have experienced some of this. President Grant carried to his grave a deep sense of sorrow that, contrary to his counsel, the people of Utah cast the final vote, in 1934, that repealed the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution.

I am grateful to say that we had a different experience some years ago when we joined with other citizens in a campaign to control the distribution of liquor. There is no question in my mind that great benefits have come as a result of the overwhelming response to direction from our prophet.

- President Gordan B. Hinckley, "Believe His Prophets", General Conference April 1992

I make you a promise, my dear brethren, that while I am serving in my present responsibility I will never consent to nor advocate any policy, any program, any doctrine which will be otherwise than beneficial to the membership of this, the Lord’s Church.

This is His work. He established it. He has revealed its doctrine. He has outlined its practices. He created its government. It is His work and His kingdom, and He has said, “They who are not for me are against me” (2 Ne. 10:16).

In 1933 there was a movement in the United States to overturn the law which prohibited commerce in alcoholic beverages. When it came to a vote, Utah was the deciding state.

I was on a mission, working in London, England, when I read the newspaper headlines that screamed, “Utah Kills Prohibition.”

President Heber J. Grant, then President of this Church, had pleaded with our people against voting to nullify Prohibition. It broke his heart when so many members of the Church in this state disregarded his counsel.

On this occasion I am not going to talk about the good or bad of Prohibition but rather of uncompromising loyalty to the Church.

How grateful, my brethren, I feel, how profoundly grateful for the tremendous faith of so many Latter-day Saints who, when facing a major decision on which the Church has taken a stand, align themselves with that position. And I am especially grateful to be able to say that among those who are loyal are men and women of achievement, of accomplishment, of education, of influence, of strength—highly intelligent and capable individuals.

Each of us has to face the matter—either the Church is true, or it is a fraud. There is no middle ground. It is the Church and kingdom of God, or it is nothing.

Thank you, my dear brethren, you men of great strength and great fidelity and great faith and great loyalty.

Finally, loyalty to God our Eternal Father and His Beloved Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

http://www.lds.org/general-conference/2 ... y?lang=eng

From the time of prohibition the Church has opposed every law that made liquor easier for anyone to use at any age. The Church leaders opposed the repeal of prohibition, they have spoken against laws that would permit liquor by the drink, and they have discouraged action that would allow the sale of liquor to minors.

The logic of their arguments, which I fully support, is simple. The Lord has said that liquor is not good for man and that it is to be avoided.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1974/07/i-hav ... n?lang=eng

There is no question that the health of the body affects the spirit, or the Lord would never have revealed the Word of Wisdom. God has never given any temporal commandments—that which affects our bodies also affects our souls.

To a great extent, we are physically what we eat. Most of us are acquainted with some of the prohibitions of the Word of Wisdom, such as no tea, coffee, tobacco, or alcohol.

http://www.lds.org/ensign/1988/09/in-his-steps?lang=eng

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

To all this I can only say: If Heber J. Grant was certain that it was the commandment of God, he should have said "Thus saith the Lord: oppose the repeal of the Prohibition." He never did that.
Case closed.

If the Lord had commanded to support the Prohibition, I would obey, because He owns this planet and we live on his land, therefore He has the right to do so. But he is commanding no such thing right now.

So case closed again. Short of such a command, YOU and the government, have exactly ZERO authority or moral right to force such a prohibition.

That sums it up.

Thanks.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

To all this I can only say: If Heber J. Grant was certain that it was the commandment of God, he should have said "Thus saith the Lord: oppose the repeal of the Prohibition." He never did that.
Case closed.

If the Lord had commanded to support the Prohibition, I would obey, because He owns this planet and we live on his land, therefore He has the right to do so. But he is commanding no such thing right now.

So case closed again. Short of such a command, YOU and the government, have exactly ZERO authority or moral right to force such a prohibition.

That sums it up.

Thanks.

LOL...speaking of Benson Principles...

Fourteen Fundamentals in Following the Prophet
http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... ndamentals

Please allow me to post an excerpt for you in bold, underline, and super size font....since you seem to gloss over the large font...

Sixth: The prophet does not have to say “Thus saith the Lord” to give us scripture.

Sometimes there are those who argue about words. They might say the prophet gave us counsel but that we are not obliged to follow it unless he says it is a commandment. But the Lord says of the Prophet, “Thou shalt give heed unto all his words and commandments which he shall give unto you.” (D&C 21:4.)

And speaking of taking counsel from the prophet, in D&C 108:1, the Lord states:

“Verily thus saith the Lord unto you, my servant Lyman: Your sins are forgiven you, because you have obeyed my voice in coming up hither this morning to receive counsel of him whom I have appointed.”

Said Brigham Young, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture.” (Journal of Discourses, 13:95.)

http://www.lds.org/liahona/1981/06/four ... ndamentals

Obviously you also missed the quote by George Albert Smith in bold, underline, and large font....let me reiterate it again in super size font-

From this very stand he pleaded with us not to repeal the Eighteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States. He didn't speak as Heber J. Grant, the man, he spoke as the President of the Church and the representative of our Heavenly Father.

- George Albert Smith, Conference, Oct 1943

There's no difference in principles between the stand on Prohibition and the drug war today....not to mention many other aspects of government. What is needed is a real understanding of agency and law (God's law) as well as the respective role government plays in that. Korihor argued for freedom/liberty (claiming government had no right to enforce a moral code of behavior) but we all know he was a liar (anti-Christ) and was instead trying to chain people down to destruction (help them lose their agency). We live in deceptive times....

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

I did not deny that the prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. It is false however to suppose that anything that comes out of a prophets mouth is the word of the Lord, because the Prophet Joseph Smith himself said that it was not the case.

There's no difference in principles between the stand on Prohibition and the drug war today....not to mention many other aspects of government.

You are dead wrong again. You obviously missed the fact that the Prophet and the First Presidency later opposed a Federal Prohibition option, and encouraged a local option instead. So there is a difference. A very important difference. But you do not believe the prophets, only when it suits you, right?

What is needed is a real understanding of agency and law (God's law) as well as the respective role government plays in that.

You are clueless about both, even to the point of fighting God.

Korihor argued for freedom/liberty (claiming government had no right to enforce a moral code of behavior) but we all know he was a liar (anti-Christ) and was instead trying to chain people down to destruction (help them lose their agency). We live in deceptive times....

The Benson Principle is the measuring stick here (if the words of a prophet mean anything to you). If you, individually, have the moral right to point a gun at your neighbor and force him to do, or not to do something, then you can delegate that authority to another. Otherwise you cannot ask the government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. Learn this much. This is a true principle taught by a Prophet of God.

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

I did not deny that the prophet does not have to say "Thus saith the Lord" to give us scripture. It is false however to suppose that anything that comes out of a prophets mouth is the word of the Lord, because the Prophet Joseph Smith himself said that it was not the case.

There's no difference in principles between the stand on Prohibition and the drug war today....not to mention many other aspects of government.

You are dead wrong again. You obviously missed the fact that the Prophet and the First Presidency later opposed a Federal Prohibition option, and encouraged a local option instead. So there is a difference. A very important difference. But you do not believe the prophets, only when it suits you, right?

What is needed is a real understanding of agency and law (God's law) as well as the respective role government plays in that.

You are clueless about both, even to the point of fighting God.

Korihor argued for freedom/liberty (claiming government had no right to enforce a moral code of behavior) but we all know he was a liar (anti-Christ) and was instead trying to chain people down to destruction (help them lose their agency). We live in deceptive times....

The Benson Principle is the measuring stick here (if the words of a prophet mean anything to you). If you, individually, have the moral right to point a gun at your neighbor and force him to do, or not to do something, then you can delegate that authority to another. Otherwise you cannot ask the government to do it for you, because you cannot delegate an authority you do not have. Learn this much. This is a true principle taught by a Prophet of God.

I noticed you ignored the George Albert Smith quote again and just moved on....good luck!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

I noticed you ignored the George Albert Smith quote again and just moved on....good luck!

I ignored nothing. It is you who are ignoring the words of the Prophets (not to mention the Spirit).


Good luck to you!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Lew Rockwell: Ron Paul and Rand Paul are different!

Lew: "You CAN'T change the Regime from the inside, any more than you can change the Mafia from the inside!"



Amen!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Doug Wead: Ron Paul Surprise in Arkansas!

"It shows clearly that the move to transform the GOP is organic and real and cannot be stopped, even from inside."

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Wins Delegates In New Mexico!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Rand Paul 2012 Should Listen To Ron Paul 2008

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Some secret truths about Ron Paul that very few know.

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

I am writing in "Ron Paul!"

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul Message to Supporters

"The idea who's time has come cannot be stopped by any government!"


America! You should have voted for this man! Now you deserve what is coming to you, i.e. currency collapse and tyranny, unless you embrace the principles he is teaching, i.e. Individual Liberty, Sound Money, and Private Property = Peace and Prosperity!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Lew Rockwell: Ron Paul will NOT Endorse Mitt Romney!



Lew Rockwell Rocks! A brilliant man who tells the truth, and a true friend of Liberty!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul on MSNBC's 'Morning Joe'

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Paul insurgents seize control of state Republican parties

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Mitt Romney is Running for Bush's Fourth Term



Mitt Romney is considered by the elites as a spineless useful idiot who does not have firm convictions on anything but getting into office! Sad but true.

Ron Paul 2012!!!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Ron Paul: There’s “No Way” I’m Endorsing Romney

“He has the delegates, but he doesn’t have the hearts and the minds of the people”

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

CNBC Admits: "We're All Slaves To The Central Bankers"



The Goldman Sachs candidate Mitt Romney (they are his top donors) says that he wants to leave the Fed alone because it's doing such a good job.

Ron Paul is the ONLY one who is serious (as in 30 years of voting record) to liberate people from a Fed counterfeiting monopoly, by allowing free competition in currencies!

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Here is an interesting checklist comparing Paul and Romney to the words of the prophets.

Source: http://www.dailypaul.com/241766/next-in ... -june-26th

[ktgcaptain of 100]

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Pale Blue Dot - Carl Sagan

Principles of Liberty are Eternal as God himself. Enjoy!

[Legioncaptain of 1,000]

Pale Blue Dot - Carl Sagan

Principles of Liberty are Eternal as God himself. Enjoy!

Since Ron Paul is no longer a contender you are relegated to video's by Mr. X who vehemently denies the existence of a godlike creator?

[LoveIsTruthcaptain of 1,000]

Pale Blue Dot - Carl Sagan

Principles of Liberty are Eternal as God himself. Enjoy!

Since Ron Paul is no longer a contender you are relegated to video's by Mr. X who vehemently denies the existence of a godlike creator?

Your name suits you well, "Legion" (a.k.a. paranoid and possessed), who always looks for evil where none exists. You are pathetic! And for your information, Ron Paul is still winning the hearts and minds,-- the only victory that matters. I said this from the very first post of this thread! You probably missed it.

[Juliettecaptain of 1,000]

Pale Blue Dot - Carl Sagan

Principles of Liberty are Eternal as God himself. Enjoy!

Since Ron Paul is no longer a contender you are relegated to video's by Mr. X who vehemently denies the existence of a godlike creator?

Your names suits you well, "Legion" (a.k.a. paranoid and possessed), who always looks for evil where none exists. You are pathetic! And for your information, Ron Paul is still winning the hearts and minds,-- the only victory that matters. I said this from the very first post of this thread! You probably missed it.

GIVE IT UP! You wrote almost all of these 25,000 posts. Talk about pathetic!