Satan's plan

For discussion of secret combinations (political, economic, spiritual, religious, etc.) (Ether 8:18-25.)
ereves
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Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

Regarding the pre-mortal council in heaven it is generally taught in the church that Satan's plan was to "force" everyone to be righteous. While this has been repeated by many church leaders I can't find any scriptural backing for it. Years ago I remember reading in a book by a general authority that suggested we wouldn't have all been righteous under Satan's plan but rather we would have all been carnal and sensual. What Satan offered was a false salvation for all, allowing you to do whatever you wanted, not forced righteousness (This seems much more consistent with scripture, satan's nature, and reason). I have not been able to find the reference for that though I thought it was Our Search for Happiness but that supports the forced righteousness view. Does anyone else happen to remember reading that who good provide us with the reference?

keeprunning
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by keeprunning »

Interesting. What started you thinking about it and questioning? Just curious. I haven't really searched out the question before, so I don't have an answer.

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clarkkent14
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Re: Satan's plan

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That is how I see it, but I also think that we sometimes forget that Christ has one doctrine, and Lucifer has many. He does promote Compulsion through venues such as government, and at the same time he promotes the idea that there is no sin, nor punishment. Eat, drink, and be marry for tomorrow we die.

Joseph Smith said: "By proving contraries, truth is made manifest." in other words... between the extremes, we will find the truth.

When Amulek was contending with Zeezrom, Z was essentially saying "you can do whatever you want and god will save us":
26 And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God?
27 And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God.
28 Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God?
29 And he answered, No.
30 Now Zeezrom said unto him again: How knowest thou these things?
31 And he said: An angel hath made them known unto me.
32 And Zeezrom said again: Who is he that shall come? Is it the Son of God?
33 And he said unto him, Yea.
34 And Zeezrom said again: Shall he save his people in their sins? And Amulek answered and said unto him: I say unto you he shall not, for it is impossible for him to deny his word.
35 Now Zeezrom said unto the people: See that ye remember these things; for he said there is but one God; yet he saith that the Son of God shall come, but he shall anot save his people—as though he had authority to command God.
36 Now Amulek saith again unto him: Behold thou hast lied, for thou sayest that I spake as though I had authority to command God because I said he shall not save his people in their sins.
37 And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.
Zeezrom tried to pass off this idea and Amulek put him in his place.
Helaman 5:10 And remember also the words which Amulek spake unto Zeezrom, in the city of Ammonihah; for he said unto him that the Lord surely should come to redeem his people, but that he should not come to redeem them in their sins, but to redeem them from their sins. 11 And he hath power given unto him from the Father to redeem them from their sins because of repentance; therefore he hath sent his angels to declare the tidings of the conditions of repentance, which bringeth unto the power of the Redeemer, unto the salvation of their souls.

ndjili
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ndjili »

I think people get it from Moses 4:1 In which Satan says......"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; and then again in Moses 4:3 where it says "that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man...." People put 2 + 2 together that if he will save every soul and not one be lost and also do it by taking away our agency it = 4

Rosabella
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Rosabella »

Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?

keeprunning
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by keeprunning »

Ahhh...I see! It is so simple, I can't believe I never saw that before!

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ithink
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Re: Satan's plan

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Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Nice theory, but if there was no veil, and there would be no sin as you say, then Satan would not need to "redeem" anyone.

I believe the loss of agency through Satan's plan comes through deceit. Do not think for a moment that Satan is not running out his plan to completion as much as he can. In fact, he must be allowed to run his course to it's end, because in the end everyone will see and everyone will be forced to conclude of their own free will (ironically), that Satan's plan is a dud from the top to the bottom. So everything we see Satan doing now is just a part of what his plan would have been had he completely had his way.

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clarkkent14
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by clarkkent14 »

Bella I agree with you in part, I'm sure that was an argument, but I also believe that since we live with the veil, Lucifer tries to get us think we are justified in committing sin. That God will save us in sin, as Zeezrom tried to teach.
Moses 4:13 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they had been naked. And they sewed fig-leaves together and made themselves aprons.
14 And they heard the voice of the Lord God, as they were walking in the garden, in the cool of the day; and Adam and his wife went to hide themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden.
When we sin, we are tempted "to cover" our sins by our self, and hide from justice.
The Atonement: http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD
In Hebrew, the basic word for atonement is kaphar, a verb that means “to cover” or “to forgive.” 19 Closely related is the Aramaic and Arabic word kafat, meaning “a close embrace”—no doubt related to the Egyptian ritual embrace. References to that embrace are evident in the Book of Mormon. One states that “the Lord hath redeemed my soul … ; I have beheld his glory, and I am encircled about eternally in the arms of his love.” 20 Another proffers the glorious hope of our being “clasped in the arms of Jesus.” 21

I weep for joy when I contemplate the significance of it all. To be redeemed is to be atoned—received in the close embrace of God with an expression not only of His forgiveness, but of our oneness of heart and mind. What a privilege! And what a comfort to those of us with loved ones who have already passed from our family circle through the gateway we call death!
Moses 4:27 Unto Adam, and also unto his wife, did I, the Lord God, make coats of skins, and clothed them.
Adam and Eve tried "to cover" their sins on their own, and then The Lord made a covering for them. (inference that an animal had to die, a sacrifice was made)

Rosabella
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Rosabella »

ithink wrote:
Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Nice theory, but if there was no veil, and there would be no sin as you say, then Satan would not need to "redeem" anyone.

I believe the loss of agency through Satan's plan comes through deceit. Do not think for a moment that Satan is not running out his plan to completion as much as he can. In fact, he must be allowed to run his course to it's end, because in the end everyone will see and everyone will be forced to conclude of their own free will (ironically), that Satan's plan is a dud from the top to the bottom. So everything we see Satan doing now is just a part of what his plan would have been had he completely had his way.

It depends on the definition of redeem. Redeem can mean merely to restore to ones rightful owner in this case to God. It does not have to mean that Lucifer would pay any price, just bring us back. The definition of Redeem is to recover a possession.

This I believe was his original plan, but once cast out we know from the temple what he said he would do. Now he lies and tells us that there is no sin, no devil, no need for a Savior.

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clarkkent14
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by clarkkent14 »

http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?hideN ... 82620aRCRD
After the Fall, Adam and Eve were given coats of skins to cover their bodies (see Gen. 3:21). It is interesting to note that the Hebrew word for atonement is kaphar, which means to “cover” or “make propitiation.” 3 By wearing their coats of skins, they would be reminded that the Atonement covered their sins.
Satan tries to make us think we can cover our own sins, or that God will cover them without repentance.

We also wear "skins to cover" our bodies. We call them Garments.

Rosabella
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Rosabella »

In the occult the whole emphasis is to return to wholeness. To remember who were were before. They believe in that state of remembering that we would do no harm to anyone and ourselves. That we would be pure and innocent if we just did not have the veil. They want people to remove the veil by altered states of consciousness. Now in saying that, Lucifer still lies and says that there is no sin for he wants us dammed as he is. But he would love it if we chose his original plan over Father's for then we truly worship him. Either way he wins. If we chose his plan and say it is better then Father's then we are like the 1/3 of the host of heaven that followed him. If do not accept the Atonement of Jesus Christ we stay in a fallen state and he wins.

It is interesting in the occult that they say the whole purpose of all the wickedness in the world is to make us realize we want the Divine Plan (Lucifer's Plan) that is all about love and being in a state of innocence. They do not teach to be wicked they teach to become pure. They say that once the people of the world realizes they are divine they will not be wicked. It is just that we live in an illusion that we must wake up from. Though they do not keep commandments like morality, just unconditional love. I think that this is a means to keep us from gaining the Holy Ghost. If we had the Holy Ghost with us and were loving one another we would be following Father.

Lucifer = end justifies the means. So I think he very well may have an ultimate goal to establish his original plan by the means of proving to us how horrible Father's plan is to live. Once we agree that the Plan of Salvation is too hard and cruel he teaches us his plan. The means to the end is then justified. He has proven all the faults Father's Plan has and wins souls to his side once again.

That is what I think is meant that the war in Heaven continues on earth. I do not see a need for Lucifer to suggest that we come here and sin all we want and all make it back. For even during the pre-mortal world we would see that that could not work for one must be pure to be before Father. But we would not see why we had to have a veil to come back to Father. The veil is what gives us the free agency to choose to be with Father or not. The lack of a veil would give us no choice.


Just something to ponder.....

ereves
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

keeprunning wrote:Interesting. What started you thinking about it and questioning? Just curious. I haven't really searched out the question before, so I don't have an answer.
After my mission I started studying about the kingdom of the devil and his plan and was surprised to see how much it is being carried out in this life. I know everyone says that and we are taught that in the church but I really started to understand that it is very literal. Normally it is taught like this, Satan wanted to save everyone but force them, and Christ wanted to protect agency even at the expence of loosing many of God's children. God rejected Satan's plan and cast him out and Satan was so ticked off about it he just decided to try to ruin God's plan. Once I started to discover the truth about our awful situation I realized how real Satan's kingdom is that I had been studying about. I realized Satan knew exactly what he was getting himself into and I realized how it is that satan usurps our agency.
clarkkent14 wrote:Christ has one doctrine, and Lucifer has many. He does promote Compulsion through venues such as government, and at the same time he promotes the idea that there is no sin, nor punishment. Eat, drink, and be marry for tomorrow we die.
Good post clarkkent14. I think though that taking over governments and other institutions is just a means for Satan's to get his way. Wickedness always thrives in societies run or influenced by secret combinations as we see throughout all of canonized scripture. That is how Satan gains control over us. SCs create the type of environment that allows Satan to control us while they at the top reap the spoils. In other words you’re right on but I think it’s all part of the same equation.
ndjili wrote:I think people get it from Moses 4:1 In which Satan says......"I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; and then again in Moses 4:3 where it says "that Satan rebelled against me, and sought to destroy the agency of man...." People put 2 + 2 together that if he will save every soul and not one be lost and also do it by taking away our agency it = 4
I think that’s exactly where they get it and that’s the closest thing I’ve found to scriptural support of the view that is generally held in the church. But really all those scriptures tell us is A) satan claimed he would redeem everyone and b) Satan sought to destroy man’s agency. People then say well since we can’t be redeemed unless we’re righteous then everyone would have to be rightesous under satan’s plan and since he wanted to destroy our agency he must have wanted to accomplish this righteousness by force. The way I see it, however, is that (a) is a claim and nothing else, in other words a lie and what Satan was really planning was to usurp our agency. How? The same way he does now. When we sin and give into carnal desires, this allows satan to possess us and take control of our bodies and “that same spirit which doth possess your bodies at the time that ye go out of this life, that same spirit will have power to possess your body in that eternal world.” In other words if you live in such a way that satan has power to possess you body in this life, he will still have power to possess your body in the next life (btw I have never heard that scripture interpreted correctly before in the church or in the mission field). And where will these people go?
1 Nephi 15:
33 Wherefore, if they should die in their wickedness they must be cast off also, as to the things which are spiritual, which are pertaining to righteousness; wherefore, they must be brought to stand before God, to be judged of their works; and if their works have been filthiness they must needs be filthy; and if they be filthy it must needs be that they cannot dwell in the kingdom of God; if so, the kingdom of God must be filthy also.
34 But behold, I say unto you, the kingdom of God is not filthy, and there cannot any unclean thing enter into the kingdom of God; wherefore there must needs be a place of filthiness prepared for that which is filthy.
35 And there is a place prepared, yea, even that awful hell of which I have spoken, and the devil is the preparator of it; wherefore the final state of the souls of men is to dwell in the kingdom of God, or to be cast out because of that justice of which I have spoken.
So just as Christ has prepared a place for the righteous in the mansions of his father, so the devil has prepared a place for the wicked where he will be able to rule over them for eternity:
2 Nephi 2:
29 And not choose eternal death, according to the will of the flesh and the evil which is therein, which giveth the spirit of the devil power to captivate, to bring you down to hell, that he may reign over you in his own kingdom.
ithink wrote: I believe the loss of agency through Satan's plan comes through deceit. Do not think for a moment that Satan is not running out his plan to completion as much as he can. In fact, he must be allowed to run his course to it's end, because in the end everyone will see and everyone will be forced to conclude of their own free will (ironically), that Satan's plan is a dud from the top to the bottom. So everything we see Satan doing now is just a part of what his plan would have been had he completely had his way.
Exactly ithink. I’m sure the devil assures his followers that his kingdom is “heaven” and the true God’s kingdom is “hell.” So Satan’s plan that he presented in the pre-mortal life is in full effect EXACTLY as he presented it. This is only true under the view that satan wanted everyone to follow the desires of the flesh, not under the forced righteousness view which is why I say that the former is more in line with scripture, Satan’s nature, and reason. You can do what ever you want and you will still be redeemed (in Satan’s kingdom… and you loose your agency). The only variance is that not everyone will go to his kingdom but that was part of the lie to begin with.

Satan is the ultimate con-artist.

ereves
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Bella wrote:The veil is what gives us the free agency to choose to be with Father or not. The lack of a veil would give us no choice.

Just something to ponder.....
Interesting thoughts Bella, but we do not derive our agency from a veil or from ignorance, in fact quite the opposite. It is knowledge that allowed us to choose in the pre-mortal life and it is knowledge between good and evil that allows us to choose now. We had agency in the pre-mortal realm when we didn't have the veil that we have now...
D&C 29:36
And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;
Agency is given to us by God and but we can only exercise it if we are influenced by God and the devil who give us two options to choose from. In the preexistence we could choose because we had Christ’s plan and the devil’s plan to entice us. In the garden of Eden Adam and Eve could choose because God commanded them and the devil tempted him. Now in this life we can choose because God has given us commandments and the devil tempts us to do the carnal and sensual things which are forbidden in God’s commandments.
D&C 29:
35 Behold, I gave unto him that he should be an agent unto himself; and I gave unto him commandment, but no temporal commandment gave I unto him, for my commandments are spiritual; they are not natural nor temporal, neither carnal nor sensual.
36 And it came to pass that Adam, being tempted of the devil—for, behold, the devil was before Adam, for he rebelled against me, saying, Give me thine honor, which is my power; and also a third part of the hosts of heaven turned he away from me because of their agency;
37 And they were thrust down, and thus came the devil and his angels;
38 And, behold, there is a place prepared for them from the beginning, which place is hell.
39 And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet—
40 Wherefore, it came to pass that the devil tempted Adam, and he partook of the forbidden fruit and transgressed the commandment, wherein he became subject to the will of the devil, because he yielded unto temptation. (ie lost his agency… satan’s plan)
Satan’s plan is as dependent on God’s plan as God’s plan is on Satan’s. Satan is simply doing that which has been done in other worlds and for whatever reason subjecting beings with bodies to himself in this life and after the resurrection looked better to him than bringing to pass the immortality and eternal life of man.

Rosabella
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Rosabella »

ereves "Interesting thoughts Bella, but we do not derive our agency from a veil or from ignorance, in fact quite the opposite. It is knowledge that allowed us to choose in the pre-mortal life and it is knowledge between good and evil that allows us to choose now. We had agency in the pre-mortal realm when we didn't have the veil that we have now..."

I agree. Let me clarify. We did not have a veil during the pre-mortal world but we had agency. Our agency was used to determine who we would trust/follow and have faith in Father or Lucifer. But those of us that made it to our next estate already were tested by our agency under the condition of being in the presence of Father. So we did not need that test again.

In this life our agency is once again tested, in a second way, by the veil. Having a veil tests us even far greater to see if we will have faith in Father outside of his presence and not remembering who we are. Our Moral agency determines what we chose. We can chose to have Faith in Father once again or chose not to that is our moral agency.

I would say it was not knowledge that allowed us to choose in the premortal world I would say it was Faith in Father. For knowledge does not fruit a the desire to follow Father for Lucifer knows Him well too, it is Faith that is what the deciding factor is. The willingness to submit to Father in all things. Christ say "Father Thy will Be done and the Glory be Thine forever. Christ showed us the example then and in this life. It was the submission to Fathers will and Faith in Him. Our submission to Father's will and Faith in Him must be tested apart from him as Christ showed us. That is our test now, are we willing to have Faith in Father and submit to all things or not. Will we listen to Lucifer and not have faith in Father therefore not submitting to His will. When we are not submitting to Father's will we by default are submitting to Lucifer's.

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Re: Satan's plan

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In the pre-mortal world, in the council in Heaven we read that Lucifer came before the Father "saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." (Moses 4:1)

Father chose Christ: "But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." (Moses 4:2)

Satan was cast out and later declared all the horrible things he would do on the earth, reigning with blood and horror, using governments, armies, money, etc...

Satan's plan was not originally to have all of these horrible things happen on earth, that came later, after being rejected.

In many Conference talks on Agency, the veil and agency go hand in hand. The veil allows us to more fully be tested and be agents unto ourselves. Without the veil would we have agency? I suppose so, but it's almost like we didn't have it - making decisions in this life would be easy, because our memory of pre-earth life with Father would still be there - it would be like we are still in the presence of our Heavenly Father - I know that for me making the right decision was always much easier if my parents were right there! It's the choices and actions we make when no one's looking that truly define us and our desire to use our agency to follow God's plan.

I believe that Satan's original plan involved having no veil, thus making it possible for all to be saved with ease.


So basically: veil = agency, no veil = no agency.

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Kurt
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Kurt »

Satan presented the open book test that required little or no preparation: show up, open the book with all the answers, take the exam and pass.

Christ presented a closed book test that required that you fully prepare and embed the answers in your heart(faith) long before the actual test began. This required/requires faith and trust in God, Christ, and in yourself.

Satan conviced some that they didn't stand a chance with such a difficult exam in the first estate and thus a third of hosts followed him. They did not have faith/trust in God, Christ, or themselves.

We cultivated our faith and talents in the premortal world, and thus brought them with us here, including our ability to excercise faith. In Alma chapter 13 it states that those who hold the high priesthood here, were foreordained to such before they came, even though all were on the same standing some excercised exceeding faith. Joseph Smith, Abraham and many many others were foreordained for their roles here based on their premortal estate; premortality was a place of developement and work in preparation for this secondary test. Some prepared better than others for this probation, as is evidenced all around us.

Satans plan is still trying to entice those who rejected him in the first estate, and there are many here in mortality who did not prepare properly for such a test of faith. Some diligently developed their faith, while others--not so much.

ereves
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

I agree. Let me clarify. We did not have a veil during the pre-mortal world but we had agency. (Correct) Our agency was used to determine who we would trust/follow and have faith in Father or Lucifer. (Here you say agency allowed for faith) But those of us that made it to our next estate already were tested by our agency under the condition of being in the presence of Father. So we did not need that test again.

In this life our agency is once again tested, in a second way, by the veil. Having a veil tests us even far greater to see if we will have faith in Father outside of his presence and not remembering who we are. Our Moral agency determines what we chose. We can chose to have Faith in Father once again or chose not to that is our moral agency. (here you reaffirm that placing our faith (trust) in God or satan is a result of agency)

I would say it was not knowledge that allowed us to choose in the premortal world I would say it was Faith in Father. (Now you contradict your two previous statements and say faith allows us to choose. I think you meant to say it wasn’t knowledge that allowed us to progress to the second estate, it was faith… I have no problem with that) For knowledge does not fruit a the desire to follow Father for Lucifer knows Him well too (yes, knowledge only allowed us to choose between God and Christ, if faith is the cause of agency and Satan had no faith then you are suggesting that Satan had no agency which is why I agree with your first to statements but not the third), it is Faith that is what the deciding factor is. The willingness to submit to Father in all things. Christ say "Father Thy will Be done and the Glory be Thine forever. Christ showed us the example then and in this life. It was the submission to Fathers will and Faith in Him. Our submission to Father's will and Faith in Him must be tested apart from him as Christ showed us. That is our test now, are we willing to have Faith in Father and submit to all things or not. Will we listen to Lucifer and not have faith in Father therefore not submitting to His will. When we are not submitting to Father's will we by default are submitting to Lucifer's.

Besides the faith/agency thing I don’t think I disagree with anything you said and nothing in here disallows my suggested understanding of Satan’s plan nor argues for the forced righteousness view. I maintain my previous statement. Agency is given to us by God and knowledge allows us to exercise it. This is why those without law (knowledge) are not accountable for their actions.

ereves
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

LDSConservative wrote:In the pre-mortal world, in the council in Heaven we read that Lucifer came before the Father "saying—Behold, here am I, send me, I will be thy son, and I will redeem all mankind, that one soul shall not be lost, and surely I will do it; wherefore give me thine honor." (Moses 4:1)

Father chose Christ: "But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever." (Moses 4:2)

(Nothing in those verses necessitates the forced-righteousness view)

Satan was cast out and later declared all the horrible things he would do on the earth, reigning with blood and horror, using governments, armies, money, etc...
(I agree, but I think he had that in mind the whole time even if he didn’t openly acknowledge it during the conflict in heaven which is why I say he was lying when he said he would redeem all mankind)

Satan's plan was not originally to have all of these horrible things happen on earth, that came later, after being rejected.
(Do you have any evidence for that? This paints a picture of an philanthropic Lucifer who did a 180 and became the very quintessence of evil just because he got embarrassed. I agree more with the scripture “And whatsoever is more or less than this [the truth] is the spirit of that wicked one who was a liar from the beginning [D&C 93:25].”)**

In many Conference talks on Agency, the veil and agency go hand in hand. (they may be related but the one does not cause the other. The veil may change the rules of the game but it does not change the definition of agency). The veil allows us to more fully be tested and be agents unto ourselves. (I agree with the first part of this statement. I’m not sure if I agree completely with the second part although even if it is true it does not disprove my view of Satan’s plan). Without the veil would we have agency? I suppose so, but it's almost like we didn't have it - making decisions in this life would be easy, because our memory of pre-earth life with Father would still be there - it would be like we are still in the presence of our Heavenly Father - I know that for me making the right decision was always much easier if my parents were right there! It's the choices and actions we make when no one's looking that truly define us and our desire to use our agency to follow God's plan.

I believe that Satan's original plan involved having no veil, thus making it possible for all to be saved with ease.


So basically: veil = agency, no veil = no agency.

I will attempt to show you that the situation you assert is impossible. When Satan presented his plan the war in heaven had not yet taken place. We had not chosen God’s plan over any other and yet you (and Bella and apparently Kurt) claim that what Satan presented was a plan that would allow us to remember the decision we made in the pre-earth life ie. reject Satan’s plan and follow God.

**Thank you for bringing this up because it caused me to come across these verses that for me confirm my thoughts on the Satan’s plan…
Alma 5:
24 Behold, my brethren, do ye suppose that such an one can have a place to sit down in the kingdom of God, with Abraham, with Isaac, and with Jacob, and also all the holy prophets, whose garments are cleansed and are spotless, pure and white?
25 I say unto you, Nay; except ye make our Creator a liar from the beginning, or suppose that he is a liar from the beginning, ye cannot suppose that such can have place in the kingdom of heaven; but they shall be cast out for they are the children of the kingdom of the devil.

In other words, if you think you can sin and still be saved in the kingdom of God you are mistaken unless God is a liar from the beginning. But there was one who did suggest this – the devil – which is why he is a liar from the beginning and those that follow him will be cast out to his kingdom.

I reapeat. The exact plan that Satan had in mind in the beginning is in full effect in this life as is God’s plan. Satan lied when he promised the impossible… it was not just a mistake by someone blinded by excessive altruism and Alma and many scriptures confirm this.

ereves
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by ereves »

PS I said earlier that, "Satan’s plan... is in full effect EXACTLY as he presented it." I should have said, Satan's plan is in full effect EXACTLY as he intended it. There was a critical lie in his plan as he presented it which I have already discussed.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Original_Intent »

There is an excellent book on this called "Satan's War on Free Agency" by Greg Wright. I found myself struggling against what he was saying for the firt 30 pages or so because I was brought up with the belief that Satan's plan would have forced us to "be good" (coming to earth and existing under some type of robotic mind control or a totalatarian regime that would somehow control all my actions) - He points out that this is a popular belief but unsupported by scripture. I can't recommend it highly enough. My 15 year old read it also and he thought it was a great book too.

The premise of the book is that many years ago when the author was a missionary, a member asked him to find scriptural evidence that Satan's plan was a "force plan". (Very much mirroring the question in the OP.)
Product Description
Greg Wright's book is a revelation. This book explains how both modern and ancient Gadiantons have used the "freedom plan" to get elected. The author further explains how to understand the difference between choice, freedom and Free agency.
Wright's book is full of keen insights solidly backed by scripture. Using the words of the prophets, he helps shed light onto the topic of agency and Satan's desire to destroy it as stated in Latter-day revelation.

In a nutshell: Nowhere in the canon of scripture is it ever stated that Satan wanted to destroy man's agency by "FORCING mankind to do what was right" as some attest. Rather it is plainly stated that Lucifer sought to "destroy the agency of man." Is it possible that Satan may have proposed to destroy agency by eliminating negative consequences? Wright's book is intuitive and engaging. The implications are deep and profound.

This is a must-read for every Latter-day Saint, shedding greater light onto the doctrine of Agency, its utility and what the War in Heaven may have really been and continues to be about.

Jason Harris, Gaithersburg, MD
More reviews here: http://www.amazon.com/Satans-War-on-Fre ... 193098006X

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shadow
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by shadow »

Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Help me out on this one. Did the 1/3 sin by making Lucifer their god or were they cast out for another reason? This was before the veil.

Also from Moses we now there were different levels of faithfulness in the premortal life. I suspect true followers of Christ were mocked there just as they are here. Again, before the veil.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Original_Intent »

After having read "Satan's War on Free Agency" It no longer makes any sense that Satan's plan was to force everyone to "do good". Consideration of the prospect renders it nonsensical, even though this is what I had believed my entire life. How could Satan possibly force purity in both thought and action and for there to be anything that we could consider mortal experience?

It seems much more likely to me that his plan was to have everyone come to earth, learn the consequences of good and evil by making choices and dealing with the consequences of our choices IN MORTALITY but then guaranteeing a "passing grade" that everyone would return to heaven. Universal redemption with no need for repentance or obedience. This ties in very well with a lot that Bella has been presenting, in fact I thought of the book at her last presentation.

There are only a few books I have read that I would give an unqualified recommendation to read; this is one of them.

Rosabella
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Rosabella »

shadow wrote:
Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Help me out on this one. Did the 1/3 sin by making Lucifer their god or were they cast out for another reason? This was before the veil.

Also from Moses we now there were different levels of faithfulness in the premortal life. I suspect true followers of Christ were mocked there just as they are here. Again, before the veil.
The 1/3 were cast out for the same reason Lucifer was: no Faith in Father and no willingness therefore to submit to His will. There was open rebellion over Fathers plan. All the pros and cons were hashed out. Therefore a polorization took place to follow Father and His will or not.

Choosing between Faith and Fear is the essence of agency as is choosing between Pride and Humility (submission to Father) We are told clearly that the fall of Lucifer was due to Pride. Christ is our example of pure Humility and submission to Father's will. Our example then of what to do and our example now on what to do.

Agency is merely the choice to give our will or not to give our will over to Father. We are told all we have to give to Father is our will to follow Him. If you have no Faith in Father you can not learn from Him and become like Him. Faith and willingness to submit to His will in all things is what got us to come to the second estate and is the test now. The only way to become like Father is to submit to His will in All things. That is the test.

In this life we are tested in the absence of perfect knowledge to see if we are willing to submit our wills to Father therefore exercising Faith in Him, allowing Him to teach us in all ways that will exalt us.

Yes I dare say that we met some of the very arguments and mocking in the pre-mortal world today as we did then. On the premise this theory is correct let's look at what would have been said:

Why forget all that we know? We know we want to become God's we can do this by just going to earth and getting a body.
Why should anyone not come back. All should be saved?
Why take the risk of the Veil when with full knowledge we know what we want. The veil will only stop us from remembering what we really want.
All must be pure and without sin to come back in the presence of Father.
Why is not wanting a veil a bad thing.
Which plan is more loving Lucifer's where all will be saved or Father's plan where only some will be saved?
Father wants to control us.
We have to trust Jehovah to live a perfect life, if not none of us will be saved and be able to return to Father.
Can we trust Jehovah to do this or will He fail.
If Father really loved us He would not put us in danger of sinning and not coming back.
If Father really loved us He would not have a veil.
If Father really loved us He would only want us to be happy and not suffer pain and sorrow, but only know happiness.
Don't you love ___ and want them to come back
Father's plan will cause us to suffer needlessly.

I see these same exact arrangements and points made in the occult. Only they defend Lucifer's view point. For they reject the idea of progress as we know it, and embrace what Lucifer said in the pre-mortal world. He said the wanted the Glory of Father and expressed that he was already divine and did not need a test. That is why he wanted to usurp Father, for he thought he was grown up enough to be God.( knowing all things) but lacking true wisdom of experience. I feel he was fear based and that he was afraid he would not make it back and that is why he fought for his plan that he saw as superior to Father's plan.

Suffering is essential for our progress and growth, but in the pre-mortal world we did not know suffering or what it would be like in the absence of Father. This cause us Fear weather we could make it back or not. Fear and Faith can not co-exist in a person. We either have faith or fear. Faith leads to submission to Father and exaltation where fear stops our progress. Christ had to face the same test, He never experience pain and suffering either and had to overcome His own Fear through absolute trust in Father.

I can not follow the logic of Lucifer saying we all could sin and come back to Father. For even at that time we would have known that only perfectly obedient souls could be in the presence of Father. I suggest there is much more to this. Father's plan was that we have our willingness to submit tested (our Faith) this willingness is what we call valiance and we are taught is what makes exaltation possible.

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Original_Intent
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Re: Satan's plan

Post by Original_Intent »

Bella wrote:
shadow wrote:
Bella wrote:Lets think about what gives us Agency. When we have the veil of forgetfulness brought over our minds we then have lost the remembrance of who we are and all the knowledge of the pre-mortal world. Lets say we were never given a veil. Would there be any test? Would we grow? would we ever sin? Having lived a sinless life we would be able to return to Father. So if Fathers plan is for us to have a veil what is the opposite?
Help me out on this one. Did the 1/3 sin by making Lucifer their god or were they cast out for another reason? This was before the veil.

Also from Moses we now there were different levels of faithfulness in the premortal life. I suspect true followers of Christ were mocked there just as they are here. Again, before the veil.
The 1/3 were cast out for the same reason Lucifer was: no Faith in Father and no willingness therefore to submit to His will. There was open rebellion over Fathers plan. All the pros and cons were hashed out. Therefore a polorization took place to follow Father and His will or not.

Choosing between Faith and Fear is the essence of agency as is choosing between Pride and Humility (submission to Father) We are told clearly that the fall of Lucifer was due to Pride. Christ is our example of pure Humility and submission to Father's will. Our example then of what to do and our example now on what to do.

Agency is merely the choice to give our will or not to give our will over to Father. We are told all we have to give to Father is our will to follow Him. If you have no Faith in Father you can not learn from Him and become like Him. Faith and willingness to submit to His will in all things is what got us to come to the second estate and is the test now. The only way to become like Father is to submit to His will in All things. That is the test.

In this life we are tested in the absence of perfect knowledge to see if we are willing to submit our wills to Father therefore exercising Faith in Him, allowing Him to teach us in all ways that will exalt us.

Yes I dare say that we met some of the very arguments and mocking in the pre-mortal world today as we did then. On the premise this theory is correct let's look at what would have been said:

Why forget all that we know? We know we want to become God's we can do this by just going to earth and getting a body.
Why should anyone not come back. All should be saved?
Why take the risk of the Veil when with full knowledge we know what we want. The veil will only stop us from remembering what we really want.
All must be pure and without sin to come back in the presence of Father.
Why is not wanting a veil a bad thing.
Which plan is more loving Lucifer's where all will be saved or Father's plan where only some will be saved?
Father wants to control us.
We have to trust Jehovah to live a perfect life, if not none of us will be saved and be able to return to Father.
Can we trust Jehovah to do this or will He fail.
If Father really loved us He would not put us in danger of sinning and not coming back.
If Father really loved us He would not have a veil.
If Father really loved us He would only want us to be happy and not suffer pain and sorrow, but only know happiness.
Don't you love ___ and want them to come back
Father's plan will cause us to suffer needlessly.

I see these same exact arrangements and points made in the occult. Only they defend Lucifer's view point. For they reject the idea of progress as we know it, and embrace what Lucifer said in the pre-mortal world. He said the wanted the Glory of Father and expressed that he was already divine and did not need a test. That is why he wanted to usurp Father, for he thought he was grown up enough to be God.( knowing all things) but lacking true wisdom of experience. I feel he was fear based and that he was afraid he would not make it back and that is why he fought for his plan that he saw as superior to Father's plan.

Suffering is essential for our progress and growth, but in the pre-mortal world we did not know suffering or what it would be like in the absence of Father. This cause us Fear weather we could make it back or not. Fear and Faith can not co-exist in a person. We either have faith or fear. Faith leads to submission to Father and exaltation where fear stops our progress. Christ had to face the same test, He never experience pain and suffering either and had to overcome His own Fear through absolute trust in Father.

I can not follow the logic of Lucifer saying we all could sin and come back to Father. For even at that time we would have known that only perfectly obedient souls could be in the presence of Father. I suggest there is much more to this. Father's plan was that we have our willingness to submit tested (our Faith) this willingness is what we call valiance and we are taught is what makes exaltation possible.
I suggest that he was offering universal redemption - not universal in the sense of available to all, but universal in the sense that it would be applied to all regardless. So they would learn good and evil they would even suffer the consequences of bad choices on earth only, then all would be saved. Which is more nonsensical that we could all be saved in our sins or that we could "get a body" and through ultimate control we could be kept from making an error and thus return clean to Father. Again, the "force" theory I do not think would have gotten 1/3 of the hosts of heaven to support it. Doesn't it sound more appealing to bee able to come to earth, "learn" and do whatever we want (be Gods unto ourselves) and then be guaranteed a return to Father thru a universally saving redemption?

keeprunning
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Posts: 757

Re: Satan's plan

Post by keeprunning »

Well, if it is applied to all regardless, then in a sense that IS force. Maybe some people don't WANT to be redeemed. :?

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