4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

For discussion of secret combinations (political, economic, spiritual, religious, etc.) (Ether 8:18-25.)
User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by jbalm »

ajax wrote:And who is my thank buddy?
smallfarm, apparently. Only one in this thread anyway.

You're kinda slacking in the "thanks count" lately. Back when the site kept track of them, you had way more than anyone else. Now...just the occasional thank buddy. :(

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by ajax »

I never really liked the thanks button. Adults going around thanking each other on a forum. Seems kinda sophomoric to me. Kinda promotes a your team / my team mentality. I never thank anymore. If I want to follow up I will in print.

Anyway, I do thank smallfarm for the "thanks" - insomuch that it now makes us buddies. Hi small ;))

samizdat
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3511

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by samizdat »

DesertWonderer wrote:
samizdat wrote:In some areas of Mexico there have been historically false baptisms in order to meet the quotas set out by the MP, APs and ZLs. I even heard of cases where missionaries were sent home for not baptizing in two weeks. One mission had 10k baptisms during an MP tenure but no new comgregations to show for it. My mission president was not the type to pressure though a couple of asistontos (Spanish for Idiot Assistants) tried doing so.

During this MPs tenure, there were about 4000 baptisms, but in that time two STAKES were created and a third would be created shortly thereafter.
I served a S American mission and never heard of anything like this or the taking names from cemeteries that you mentioned in another post. You sound pretty sure about your facts. How do you know this? Rumor (hopefully)?
Experience. This was a common occurence especially in the north of the country. In the case of the Mexico City South Mission they did have over 10k baptisms in one year, but not a single WARD or BRANCH created because the missionaries were indeed pressured into baptizing every single week. I knew of one who was sent home over this (he had gone three weeks without a baptism). The MP after his mission was severely criticized by the leaders over this (I am not sure if he faced a DC or not, but he was NEVER the same after the mission was over).

My mission had less than half the baptisms of the MCSM but had two STAKES created in that amount of time (new stake creation, stake from district). Another district became a stake shortly after the MP's release. He was well received by the authorities over this.

User avatar
jbalm
The Third Comforter
Posts: 5348

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by jbalm »

ajax wrote:I never really liked the thanks button. Adults going around thanking each other on a forum. Seems kinda sophomoric to me. Kinda promotes a your team / my team mentality. I never thank anymore. If I want to follow up I will in print.
I like it cuz I lazy

User avatar
ajax
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7988
Location: Pf, Texas

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by ajax »

jbalm wrote:
ajax wrote:I never really liked the thanks button. Adults going around thanking each other on a forum. Seems kinda sophomoric to me. Kinda promotes a your team / my team mentality. I never thank anymore. If I want to follow up I will in print.
I like it cuz I lazy
respect

Ann
captain of 10
Posts: 31

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Ann »

h_p wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:I have heard that in some missions the pressure to baptize is insanely intense. Perhaps they felt it was worth the risk, rather than face the humiliation of not reaching goals set by their leaders.
This is how it is in my son's mission. The MP runs it like a high-pressure sales force. They're constantly being questioned when they don't meet their mission-imposed quotas, and so the missionaries make up stats and bend definitions to stay in their leader's good graces. I'll be glad when his president is released next month.

What country is he serving in? Maybe I shouldn't ask that. My son's companion is all about the numbers, and he's really struggling.

User avatar
Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Rose Garden »

Col. Flagg wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:I have heard that in some missions the pressure to baptize is insanely intense. Perhaps they felt it was worth the risk, rather than face the humiliation of not reaching goals set by their leaders.
What I was thinking. No missionary should ever feel pressure by his/her district/zone leader or MP to baptize a specified # of people in a given time frame! It is not about numbers, it is about planting seeds!!! Heck, they aren't even required to be missionaries... they are volunteering on their own time on their own dime for crying out loud! MP's who make missionaries feel guilty because they didn't get enough converts/baptisms should be sent home and released themselves and I guarantee our Savior would be the first one to do it. #-o If I had to guess, I'd say the vast majority of MP's who behave this way are concerned more with the reflection on themselves for low numbers by missionaries and how it makes them look to the brethren... which is a sad testament also. :(
Many missionaries are pressured into going so it's not difficult to imagine that they also might be pressured into performing once they are there. When I had second thoughts about going on a mission, my mom angrily informed me that I'd been allowed to live at home rent free because I was saving for a mission and that if I decided not to go, I'd be required to pay back all the rent I hadn't been required to pay. I was upset by her remarks but in the end I went because I prayed and got an answer.

This new story is shocking and sad. It could function as a wake up call if allowed to do so. Parents, don't push your kids into missions. Mission presidents, don't push missionaries to perform. The great missionary successes in the Book of Mormon and in Joseph's time were all accomplished by men who adamantly desired to convert others to the gospel of Jesus Christ. Many risked their lives to do so. Help young men learn the truth about the gospel of Jesus Christ and then try holding them back from going out and telling everyone about it.

User avatar
h_p
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2811

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by h_p »

ajax wrote:I never really liked the thanks button. Adults going around thanking each other on a forum. Seems kinda sophomoric to me. Kinda promotes a your team / my team mentality. I never thank anymore. If I want to follow up I will in print.

Anyway, I do thank smallfarm for the "thanks" - insomuch that it now makes us buddies. Hi small ;))
I had to thank you just because I'm sophomoric. :-)

User avatar
h_p
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2811

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by h_p »

Ann wrote:What country is he serving in? Maybe I shouldn't ask that. My son's companion is all about the numbers, and he's really struggling.
He's in the US. One of the states out west. I keep trying to get him to ignore what his ZLs, APs and MP are telling him, and just follow the Spirit, but it's my lone email per week vs. daily pressuring. I really can't win. He's just going to have to learn that lesson himself, I guess, like I did on mine.

It's really heartbreaking to hear that he comes out of interviews with his mission president feeling depressed and discouraged, when he went out on this mission just wanting to bless lives and share the gospel he loves. They're trying to turn him into a salesman, though. A lying, cheating salesman.

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by A Random Phrase »

Lizzy60 wrote:I have heard that in some missions the pressure to baptize is insanely intense. Perhaps they felt it was worth the risk, rather than face the humiliation of not reaching goals set by their leaders.
Like the "baseball baptisms" of days gone by. https://www.google.com/#q=lds+baseball+baptisms

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by A Random Phrase »

JohnnyL wrote:President Nelson came out years ago and taught in the MTC that missionaries should NOT have goals like that.
Whatever happened??
It appears that he was ignored - or overridden by someone or something else.

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by A Random Phrase »

Robin Hood wrote:
samizdat wrote:People would go to cemeteries to get names for baptisms...common occurrence especially in the 90s...
That's called baptism for the dead, and we do it all the time.
:))

I think the missionaries going out into the field are not the same as the missionaries who extract names for temple work. :))

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by A Random Phrase »

Col. Flagg wrote:What I was thinking. No missionary should ever feel pressure by his/her district/zone leader or MP to baptize a specified # of people in a given time frame! It is not about numbers, it is about planting seeds!!! Heck, they aren't even required to be missionaries... they are volunteering on their own time on their own dime for crying out loud! MP's who make missionaries feel guilty because they didn't get enough converts/baptisms should be sent home and released themselves and I guarantee our Savior would be the first one to do it. #-o If I had to guess, I'd say the vast majority of MP's who behave this way are concerned more with the reflection on themselves for low numbers by missionaries and how it makes them look to the brethren... which is a sad testament also. :(
:ymapplause: Amen!

User avatar
A Random Phrase
Follower of Christ
Posts: 6468
Location: Staring at my computer, not sure whether to laugh or cry.

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by A Random Phrase »

h_p wrote:They're trying to turn him into a salesman, though. A lying, cheating salesman.
Sadly, too many are turned into salesmen.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Joel »

A Random Phrase wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:President Nelson came out years ago and taught in the MTC that missionaries should NOT have goals like that.
Whatever happened??
It appears that he was ignored - or overridden by someone or something else.
just kidding! :D

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by JohnnyL »

A Random Phrase wrote:
JohnnyL wrote:President Nelson came out years ago and taught in the MTC that missionaries should NOT have goals like that.
Whatever happened??
It appears that he was ignored - or overridden by someone or something else.
Yes, and it happens all too often with great things, I think. Perhaps it's our fault for not being ready and accepting?
Yes, Joel, it might be... Or it might be the spirit of man.

Completely agree with Col. Flagg, and the point of my previous posts.
I can't think of one missionary in the scriptures who had mission goals--except the sons of Mosiah, who desired to bring a few to Christ.

Himner and Omni had no converts for a long time, while Ammon was having many. The people where they were, were of much harder hearts. And the timing and situations are different.
I know a guy who had 0 baptisms on his mission and never overcame that as long as he was in our ward.

Goals should be on what YOU can do, how YOU can progress, based on YOUR condition and the PEOPLE's conditions.

My goal is to talk to 25 people today and get an appt., and if they don't accept then invite them to church, and if they don't accept then just be happy with them; invite 2/3 of our investigators to refer their friends, pray..., etc.

How many baptisms will I have this month? HELL IF I KNOW!! Perhaps, perhaps, the Spirit might reveal that to me. I did have a few things revealed to me on my mission, but most weren't, and that's generally how it goes for us, especially little guys. If the presidency of the 70, in beneficial conditions, have a really difficult time getting revelation as to where missionaries will go on their missions, how are these young men and women supposed to get monthly revelations about how many baptisms they'll have?

And what use is having goals when all they lead to are neediness, pushiness, frustration, anger (instead of love) towards investigators and others, and baptize-and-forget?

What really is the purpose of a baptismal goal? Can ANY church leader give an answer to that question? Can ANY member give one?
Last edited by JohnnyL on June 17th, 2016, 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

butterfly
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1004

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by butterfly »

If you read the report of the incident in the OP, it makes it sound like the missionaries were acting as sexual predators. The article isn't so much concerned about the kids having permission from parents to be baptized, but rather talks about 2 boys being lured by missionaries with candy and soda to a church building/ temple and then being told to get naked in order to be "baptized."

Lizzy60
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 8520

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Lizzy60 »

butterfly wrote:If you read the report of the incident in the OP, it makes it sound like the missionaries were acting as sexual predators. The article isn't so much concerned about the kids having permission from parents to be baptized, but rather talks about 2 boys being lured by missionaries with candy and soda to a church building/ temple and then being told to get naked in order to be "baptized."
These missionaries were very fortunate that they were released from custody, and didn't end up in a Mexican jail for months or years. I agree that they should have been sent home. I've heard of missionaries being released on much lesser infractions.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Joel »

JohnnyL wrote: Or it might be the spirit of man.
That's what I am thinking

User avatar
Rose Garden
Don't ask . . .
Posts: 7031
Contact:

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Rose Garden »

On my mission we were encouraged to pray to set our baptismal goals. Most of my companions made a half hearted attempt to do so but one companion took the suggestion seriously. She suggested we both pray separately and then confer on the answers we got. Of course, we both knew it was likely that we would have no baptisms at all that month, but we tried anyway because that was what we were asked to do.

She got something like three baptisms. I got something like 14. When I shared my answer she gave me a doubtful look and said it ought to be at least something reasonable. We went back to pray again. The second time I got 14 again but when I pushed the matter, knowing my companion wouldn't accept it, I got 0. Also an unacceptable answer. I don't believe we prayed a third time. We just went with her answer and of course got 0 baptisms that month.

About six months after I returned home from my mission I had my true conversion to Christ. He changed my heart. I realized that I hadn't known what I talking about on my mission at all. I wanted so badly to go on another mission. My marriage prospects were dim so I planned on going after the decade waiting time the church required for sisters between missions. Of course, those plans were messed up when I actually did get married.

By now I've learned I don't need a name tag to go out and teach the gospel of Jesus Christ. I share what I know every chance I get. I share online, I teach my kids, I share when I get together with my friends. I'm not worried about baptisms. All I want is to share the wonderful truths of the salvation from sin available through our Savior. Nothing brings more happiness.

kennyhs
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1537

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by kennyhs »

butterfly wrote:If you read the report of the incident in the OP, it makes it sound like the missionaries were acting as sexual predators. The article isn't so much concerned about the kids having permission from parents to be baptized, but rather talks about 2 boys being lured by missionaries with candy and soda to a church building/ temple and then being told to get naked in order to be "baptized."
Unfortunately, that's what some want to believe, they take joy in lending their opinions with a cold heart. Remember, how you judge is how you will be judged.

User avatar
Joel
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 7043

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Joel »

To be fair Mexico does has a large Catholic following I can understand how sex abuse is a valid concern in the minds of the people there. The boys were ask to change their clothes; I am sure a Missionary would be in the bathroom changing their clothes also. I can see why the boys would be afraid of a situation like that without their parents not being there. Who knows, maybe their parents taught the boys to look out for situations like that....


There has been recent news of a 3rd lawsuit against the LDS Church over sex abuse.

butterfly
captain of 1,000
Posts: 1004

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by butterfly »

kennyhs wrote:
butterfly wrote:If you read the report of the incident in the OP, it makes it sound like the missionaries were acting as sexual predators. The article isn't so much concerned about the kids having permission from parents to be baptized, but rather talks about 2 boys being lured by missionaries with candy and soda to a church building/ temple and then being told to get naked in order to be "baptized."
Unfortunately, that's what some want to believe, they take joy in lending their opinions with a cold heart. Remember, how you judge is how you will be judged.
Just to clarify, I am not stating my opinion here. I thought that maybe those who aren't familiar with reading in Spanish would want to know that the article from Mexico presents a different view than the article in English.
The English one focuses on how the elders didn't have permission to do the baptism.
The Spanish one focuses more on the elders endangering children in a sexual way.

JohnnyL
Level 34 Illuminated
Posts: 9831

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by JohnnyL »

Missionaries in Mexico have had this problem for a looooong time. That is, about being portrayed as homosexual sexual predators. It's the easiest way for Satan and his to inhibit/ stop the work.

Sunain
captain of 1,000
Posts: 2711
Location: Canada

Re: 4 Mormon Missionaries Relocated After Trying To Baptize Boys Without Parental Consent

Post by Sunain »

Col. Flagg wrote:
Lizzy60 wrote:I have heard that in some missions the pressure to baptize is insanely intense. Perhaps they felt it was worth the risk, rather than face the humiliation of not reaching goals set by their leaders.
What I was thinking. No missionary should ever feel pressure by his/her district/zone leader or MP to baptize a specified # of people in a given time frame! It is not about numbers, it is about planting seeds!!! Heck, they aren't even required to be missionaries... they are volunteering on their own time on their own dime for crying out loud! MP's who make missionaries feel guilty because they didn't get enough converts/baptisms should be sent home and released themselves and I guarantee our Savior would be the first one to do it. #-o If I had to guess, I'd say the vast majority of MP's who behave this way are concerned more with the reflection on themselves for low numbers by missionaries and how it makes them look to the brethren... which is a sad testament also. :(
Unfortunately baptism numbers being the focus of a MP efforts is an all too common occurrence.

Post Reply