Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

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NazareneNun
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Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by NazareneNun »

Hello, my brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometime ago I found a guy who preachs a weird, but apparently well-founded doctrine (thats why I thought this topic would fit in the Secret Combinations forum). This guy preachs against any christian church who doesn't belong to his cult, yet he dedicates a chapter of his online book to mormons and JW:

http://www.theswordbearer.org/spD029_wi ... ml#Mormons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here this guy talks about how he defeated a mormon missionary. Since he talks first about JW I would copypaste the part about LDS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MORMONS

I don’t know very much about JW and Mormon doctrines and practices because learning that stuff is a waste of time. Christians have told me, for example, that Mormons have special “holey underwear” (underwear with holes in it) to pray in. That is said in such a manner that I know I’m expected to react like other Christians by saying, “Holey underwear? Ya gotta be kidding me, brother! Boy are they a cult or what!?” Instead I ask, “Is there some Scripture that prohibits holey underwear or that dictates what we are supposed to wear while praying? I know it says we are to pray without ceasing; I know I’ve prayed while in all states of dress and undress; I know my underwear hasn’t always been in the best of condition; I know I’ve prayed while sitting on the john. I must have missed something, brother, because I don’t get the importance or even the relevance of what you’ve said.”

---------- page 3 ----------

In order to witness effectively Christians must know the Bible. The best way to recognize counterfeit doctrine is to know in minute detail the real thing (apply Is 7:15). If we know and believe the Bible, the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance whatsoever He would have us focus on. That’s what happened to me some years ago when I had my first encounter with a Mormon: My knowledge of the Bible enabled the Holy Spirit to direct my thinking to fertile ground.

The Mormon was a pleasant guy to be around. He’d been a Mormon missionary and was quite knowledgeable about his religion. He quickly found out I was a Bible believer, but his interest in me skyrocketed when he learned I didn’t attend any church. When I continued to be relaxed and pleasant with him when he revealed he was a Mormon, he was convinced he had a convert-in-the-making. (Most Christians who meet me for the first time, when they learn I’m a Bible believer, immediately ask what church I go to so they can categorize me. When I reply with a simple, “I don’t go to church,” they assume I’m a dirtbag pseudo Christian and say all manner of things. And then when I learn a little about their appalling ignorance and lack of interest in the word of God, I can’t help but wonder why they’d attend a church that produces fruit like them.)

I asked him some “I’ve heard this about Mormonism and that about Mormonism” questions and listened attentively to his answers. Because I know the Bible I knew what directions to take in my questioning, and was soon seeing how Mormonism went wrong. My Mormon friend, however, was impressed by the fact that I wasn’t giving him the stony-faced silent treatment he usually got from fearful and resentful Christians. He asked if my wife and I would agree to come to his home some evening and meet some of the elders from his church. “Sure, no problem,” I replied. “As long as you understand it wouldn’t be for the purpose of becoming a Mormon; I just want to ask a few questions.” And, of course, that was perfectly fine with him.

In order to answer some of my questions he had referred to the Book of Mormon. He had the Book of Mormon nicely bound together with the King James Bible, and the whole thing securely closed with a clasp. I asked him if I could borrow it overnight and return it to him the next day. He was delighted. That night I quickly scanned his BOM and his KJV.

When we got together the following day, I told him I’d learned some things that revealed Mormonism to be not merely hypocritical, but also an invalid religion. “How is Mormonism hypocritical,” he wanted to know.

I pointed out to him that when scanning his KJV I’d noticed every so often the KJV text was footnoted. And at the bottom of the page the footnote would start out with, “JST:…” and then proceed to reword the KJV text. He explained that Joseph Smith had an angel from heaven, named Moroni, appear to him and give him, on gold plates or tablets, the inspired word of God in order to solve the problem of corrupt Bible versions. That inspired word of God is called the Joseph Smith Translation. The footnotes in the King James are corrections made in accordance with the inspired JST.

“I have two questions”, I replied, “about the Book of Mormon. I noticed the title of it is, The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. And inside it explains the BOM to be another gospel of Jesus Christ.” “Yes,” he interjected, “that’s what Moroni delivered.” “And that’s precisely my question,” I continued, “since Joseph Smith was supposedly a Bible-believing Christian, and since the Bible he was carrying was the King James Bible, why did he choose to reject Ga 1:6-9? In that Scripture Joseph Smith was specifically and unambiguously ordered not only to reject another gospel brought to him by an angel from heaven, but he was also told twice to let Moroni be accursed! And Ga 1:6-9 does not have any JST footnote changing it. Is it not true that God Almighty wanted Joseph Smith to reject those gold plates? And is there any other application in history you can think of that would better fit Ga 1:6-9 than Joseph Smith’s acceptance of another gospel from an angel from heaven? Does it seem likely that the Lord put that Scripture in His Book specifically so Mormons would know what they have received is not “another gospel”, but rather that there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ?” My Mormon companion was stunned and speechless at the damning clarity of the Scripture regarding that situation.

“My second point concerns apparent hypocrisy of the Mormon church. Why is it, if you have the inspired word of God in the Joseph Smith Translation, you do not carry, read, and study the JST instead of continuing to use (what you believe to be) the corrupt King James Version? And why does the Mormon Church secretly hoard the inspired JST for itself instead of publishing it so the whole world could have God’s truth? Isn’t that hypocrisy and hatefulness?”

“Now, as to the validity or invalidity of the Mormon religion itself. Your BOM claims to be another testament of Jesus Christ. You probably have written and made official your own last will and testament. It issues instructions to your family and gives your stuff to them. But even though you’ve already written that testament your family cannot use it to get your stuff because it is not valid until you die; your death puts it into effect. That is straight out of He 9:16,17. Now, I know Jesus Christ died two thousand years ago in order to make valid His New Testament, but when has He died since He gave “another” of His testaments to Joseph Smith in order to make the BOM valid? Doesn’t the Bible make it clear that the resurrected Christ will never die again (Re 1:18)?” At this point his stunned silence was beginning to take on a tinge of defensive resentment. [Note: A Mormon elder answered this point by telling me that, just as Christ was murdered to dedicate the Bible, Joseph Smith was murdered to dedicate the BOM! (Smith was murdered in his jail cell.) I then embarrassed him in front of his companion by pointing out his own religion says Joseph Smith is not the testator of the BOM – Christ is, which is why the cover says Another Testament of Jesus Christ. “If the BOM is actually Another Testament of Joseph Smith, as you say”, I asked, “what are the other testaments he died to validate? Or did your religion also screw up by putting Another in the title?” He sneered that if he’d known I was going to nit pick his words, he’d have brought a thesaurus! (He meant to say dictionary: Our problem is English!) The dog had returned to his vomit, and I knew the conversation was over.]

“My last point”, I said to my Mormon friend, “concerns the validity of your Mormon priesthood. You have correctly stated that the Levitical, or Aaronic, priesthood was flawed and had to be replaced (He 7). And you have said your Mormon priests are the priests after the order of Melchisedec. However, the reason the Levitical priesthood was flawed and had to be replaced was because the sons of Aaron were mortal; they were temporary; they died. The value of Melchisedec, priest of the most high God, is that he is immortal, without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but like the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Therefore, in order to be a Melchisedecian priest, your Mormon priests would have to satisfy those requirements. Are they immortal? Have they no father and mother who birthed them? Have they no beginning of days nor end of life? What makes the Mormon Church think they really are priests after the order of Melchisedec? In fact, haven’t you confused the Levitical and the Melchisedecian priesthoods? There were many Levitical priests. But the Melchisedecian priesthood is always spoken of as singular, never plural (He 7:11,15,17,20,21,23-28). It is done that way because only God has no parent and no beginning of days. Only Jesus Christ is spoken of as our Melchisedec.”

---------- page 4 ----------

When my Mormon companion had nothing to say about any of this, I pointed out to him that there would be good answers to all of the points I brought up if Mormonism were of God. I urged him to study the issues, to talk with his elders, and come to me for help if he wanted. I also urged him to let me know if he had any success finding valid refutations to my points because I, too, am interested in knowing the truth.

He never contacted me, never invited me to meet his Melchisedecian elders, and he never left Mormonism. That means one of two things: First, he found valid answers but hasn’t enough love for the Lord and for me to share God’s truth with me. Or, second, he is a hypocrite who is content to live in a religious system about which he [now] has serious fundamental doubts. The fact is, Mormons simply cannot handle the above truths of the Bible that invalidate their religion, their BOM, and their founding false prophet. That is why all Mormons quickly do what they’ve been taught to do – retreat from the Bible to the sanctuary of the BOM. They will tell you they know the BOM is true because they trust their “feelings” – just like the angel Moroni told them: “…ask God…and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart…he will manifest the truth of it unto you” (Moron 10:4). Notice three things: First, that laughable “test” is the same one all false religions tell their converts to use. Second, it is inconclusive because it can be effectively countered by someone else’s “sincere knowledge.” Third, the “test” is classic Age of Reason carnality because it relies on self-evidence and man being the measure of all things. Only Jesus Christ instructs His followers to reject the inputs of self and use His Book to know the truth. You must not only be able to recognize carnal Reasoning in others, you must also recognize it in you and never let yourself fall for it. All false religions will try to get you to stop using your Sword because it is the one thing they cannot handle. When witnessing you must stay focused on the Bible. If you find they are not interested in the Bible do not cast your pearls before swine. I say again, never allow yourself to be sidetracked into a discussion about the BOM, the NWT, the NAS, your “sincere feelings”, or layman’s aids based on the ERROR manuscripts. If people are interested in looking into the Bible version issue with you in order to see if the KJV really is the inspired word of God, fine, because if they don’t know the word of God exists you will be unable to get them to abandon Reason and by faith submit to the authority of the word of God. All people who reject the existence of the word of God as defined by God are Bible rejecters. Let them alone. Never be tricked by carnal Reason into fighting for the King without His Sword.

The above Mormon example is different from the JW example. The JW example involved the dependable infallibility of the KJV. The Mormon example involved the kind of attention to specific words that only comes from a belief that God selected each and every word in the Authorized Version for a reason. Both examples illustrate the importance of using the infallible King James Bible to contend for the faith. No other version can compete with The Truth. No other sword slices through doctrinal errors and exposes the thoughts and intents of the heart like the King’s Sword.
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I spent many months thinking about this. Please help me understand why this mormon missionary failed, and give me advice to refute this guy attack on LDS.

nvr
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Posts: 1112

Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by nvr »

I wouldn't waste time with someone that has an attitude like this - he seems to not want to learn any further truth, but to demonstrate his knowledge. '...knowledge puffeth up... ' and all.
None of LDS doctrine will be acceptable unless one gains the witness that God really did have Joseph Smith translate a true record of Christ visiting the people in ancient America.
...also, the Reorganized Church (Church of Christ) I think still has the rights to the Joseph Smith Translation - that's why we don't have it / use it.

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Sarah
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by Sarah »

In every paragraph this guy makes assumptions about what the Bible verses mean. And that is the real problem with Christians. They equate God's word to only the Bible, which argument in itself is a contradiction to their belief that "Mormons let men get in the way in their relationship with God." Christians let the Bible and their interpretations of Scripture get in the way of accepting anything more the Lord would like to teach them. The other day a family member of mine repeated the phrase "God only died once," and she didn't explain herself. Now I can see that she was probably regurgitating the latest argument Christians have come up to battle Mormons. The fact is, the arguments have had to change and evolve over the years because eventually Mormons come up with the arguments and prove the argument to be incoherent or senseless.

Every time I bring up the question about why the Lord would organize a Church that had deacons, Bishops etc. I never get a good answer.

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Sarah
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by Sarah »

The argument about a testament not being valid until you die is kind of strange I think. The Book of Mormon was actually written during the same years the Bible was being written, so one could make the argument that when Christ died he made all the words of prophets valid, the BofM just wasn't revealed until the last days. And really, his argument makes no sense if you consider his terms. A will and testament is written BEFORE someone dies, and the New Testament was written AFTER Christ died.

samizdat
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by samizdat »

NazareneNun wrote:Hello, my brothers and sisters in Christ. Sometime ago I found a guy who preachs a weird, but apparently well-founded doctrine (thats why I thought this topic would fit in the Secret Combinations forum). This guy preachs against any christian church who doesn't belong to his cult, yet he dedicates a chapter of his online book to mormons and JW:

http://www.theswordbearer.org/spD029_wi ... ml#Mormons" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here this guy talks about how he defeated a mormon missionary. Since he talks first about JW I would copypaste the part about LDS.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
MORMONS

I don’t know very much about JW and Mormon doctrines and practices because learning that stuff is a waste of time. Christians have told me, for example, that Mormons have special “holey underwear” (underwear with holes in it) to pray in. That is said in such a manner that I know I’m expected to react like other Christians by saying, “Holey underwear? Ya gotta be kidding me, brother! Boy are they a cult or what!?” Instead I ask, “Is there some Scripture that prohibits holey underwear or that dictates what we are supposed to wear while praying? I know it says we are to pray without ceasing; I know I’ve prayed while in all states of dress and undress; I know my underwear hasn’t always been in the best of condition; I know I’ve prayed while sitting on the john. I must have missed something, brother, because I don’t get the importance or even the relevance of what you’ve said.”

---------- page 3 ----------

In order to witness effectively Christians must know the Bible. The best way to recognize counterfeit doctrine is to know in minute detail the real thing (apply Is 7:15). If we know and believe the Bible, the Holy Spirit will bring to our remembrance whatsoever He would have us focus on. That’s what happened to me some years ago when I had my first encounter with a Mormon: My knowledge of the Bible enabled the Holy Spirit to direct my thinking to fertile ground.

The Mormon was a pleasant guy to be around. He’d been a Mormon missionary and was quite knowledgeable about his religion. He quickly found out I was a Bible believer, but his interest in me skyrocketed when he learned I didn’t attend any church. When I continued to be relaxed and pleasant with him when he revealed he was a Mormon, he was convinced he had a convert-in-the-making. (Most Christians who meet me for the first time, when they learn I’m a Bible believer, immediately ask what church I go to so they can categorize me. When I reply with a simple, “I don’t go to church,” they assume I’m a dirtbag pseudo Christian and say all manner of things. And then when I learn a little about their appalling ignorance and lack of interest in the word of God, I can’t help but wonder why they’d attend a church that produces fruit like them.)

I asked him some “I’ve heard this about Mormonism and that about Mormonism” questions and listened attentively to his answers. Because I know the Bible I knew what directions to take in my questioning, and was soon seeing how Mormonism went wrong. My Mormon friend, however, was impressed by the fact that I wasn’t giving him the stony-faced silent treatment he usually got from fearful and resentful Christians. He asked if my wife and I would agree to come to his home some evening and meet some of the elders from his church. “Sure, no problem,” I replied. “As long as you understand it wouldn’t be for the purpose of becoming a Mormon; I just want to ask a few questions.” And, of course, that was perfectly fine with him.

In order to answer some of my questions he had referred to the Book of Mormon. He had the Book of Mormon nicely bound together with the King James Bible, and the whole thing securely closed with a clasp. I asked him if I could borrow it overnight and return it to him the next day. He was delighted. That night I quickly scanned his BOM and his KJV.

When we got together the following day, I told him I’d learned some things that revealed Mormonism to be not merely hypocritical, but also an invalid religion. “How is Mormonism hypocritical,” he wanted to know.

I pointed out to him that when scanning his KJV I’d noticed every so often the KJV text was footnoted. And at the bottom of the page the footnote would start out with, “JST:…” and then proceed to reword the KJV text. He explained that Joseph Smith had an angel from heaven, named Moroni, appear to him and give him, on gold plates or tablets, the inspired word of God in order to solve the problem of corrupt Bible versions. That inspired word of God is called the Joseph Smith Translation. The footnotes in the King James are corrections made in accordance with the inspired JST.

“I have two questions”, I replied, “about the Book of Mormon. I noticed the title of it is, The Book of Mormon: Another Testament of Jesus Christ. And inside it explains the BOM to be another gospel of Jesus Christ.” “Yes,” he interjected, “that’s what Moroni delivered.” “And that’s precisely my question,” I continued, “since Joseph Smith was supposedly a Bible-believing Christian, and since the Bible he was carrying was the King James Bible, why did he choose to reject Ga 1:6-9? In that Scripture Joseph Smith was specifically and unambiguously ordered not only to reject another gospel brought to him by an angel from heaven, but he was also told twice to let Moroni be accursed! And Ga 1:6-9 does not have any JST footnote changing it. Is it not true that God Almighty wanted Joseph Smith to reject those gold plates? And is there any other application in history you can think of that would better fit Ga 1:6-9 than Joseph Smith’s acceptance of another gospel from an angel from heaven? Does it seem likely that the Lord put that Scripture in His Book specifically so Mormons would know what they have received is not “another gospel”, but rather that there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ?” My Mormon companion was stunned and speechless at the damning clarity of the Scripture regarding that situation.



“My second point concerns apparent hypocrisy of the Mormon church. Why is it, if you have the inspired word of God in the Joseph Smith Translation, you do not carry, read, and study the JST instead of continuing to use (what you believe to be) the corrupt King James Version? And why does the Mormon Church secretly hoard the inspired JST for itself instead of publishing it so the whole world could have God’s truth? Isn’t that hypocrisy and hatefulness?”

“Now, as to the validity or invalidity of the Mormon religion itself. Your BOM claims to be another testament of Jesus Christ. You probably have written and made official your own last will and testament. It issues instructions to your family and gives your stuff to them. But even though you’ve already written that testament your family cannot use it to get your stuff because it is not valid until you die; your death puts it into effect. That is straight out of He 9:16,17. Now, I know Jesus Christ died two thousand years ago in order to make valid His New Testament, but when has He died since He gave “another” of His testaments to Joseph Smith in order to make the BOM valid? Doesn’t the Bible make it clear that the resurrected Christ will never die again (Re 1:18)?” At this point his stunned silence was beginning to take on a tinge of defensive resentment. [Note: A Mormon elder answered this point by telling me that, just as Christ was murdered to dedicate the Bible, Joseph Smith was murdered to dedicate the BOM! (Smith was murdered in his jail cell.) I then embarrassed him in front of his companion by pointing out his own religion says Joseph Smith is not the testator of the BOM – Christ is, which is why the cover says Another Testament of Jesus Christ. “If the BOM is actually Another Testament of Joseph Smith, as you say”, I asked, “what are the other testaments he died to validate? Or did your religion also screw up by putting Another in the title?” He sneered that if he’d known I was going to nit pick his words, he’d have brought a thesaurus! (He meant to say dictionary: Our problem is English!) The dog had returned to his vomit, and I knew the conversation was over.]

“My last point”, I said to my Mormon friend, “concerns the validity of your Mormon priesthood. You have correctly stated that the Levitical, or Aaronic, priesthood was flawed and had to be replaced (He 7). And you have said your Mormon priests are the priests after the order of Melchisedec. However, the reason the Levitical priesthood was flawed and had to be replaced was because the sons of Aaron were mortal; they were temporary; they died. The value of Melchisedec, priest of the most high God, is that he is immortal, without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but like the Son of God; abideth a priest continually. Therefore, in order to be a Melchisedecian priest, your Mormon priests would have to satisfy those requirements. Are they immortal? Have they no father and mother who birthed them? Have they no beginning of days nor end of life? What makes the Mormon Church think they really are priests after the order of Melchisedec? In fact, haven’t you confused the Levitical and the Melchisedecian priesthoods? There were many Levitical priests. But the Melchisedecian priesthood is always spoken of as singular, never plural (He 7:11,15,17,20,21,23-28). It is done that way because only God has no parent and no beginning of days. Only Jesus Christ is spoken of as our Melchisedec.”

---------- page 4 ----------

When my Mormon companion had nothing to say about any of this, I pointed out to him that there would be good answers to all of the points I brought up if Mormonism were of God. I urged him to study the issues, to talk with his elders, and come to me for help if he wanted. I also urged him to let me know if he had any success finding valid refutations to my points because I, too, am interested in knowing the truth.

He never contacted me, never invited me to meet his Melchisedecian elders, and he never left Mormonism. That means one of two things: First, he found valid answers but hasn’t enough love for the Lord and for me to share God’s truth with me. Or, second, he is a hypocrite who is content to live in a religious system about which he [now] has serious fundamental doubts. The fact is, Mormons simply cannot handle the above truths of the Bible that invalidate their religion, their BOM, and their founding false prophet. That is why all Mormons quickly do what they’ve been taught to do – retreat from the Bible to the sanctuary of the BOM. They will tell you they know the BOM is true because they trust their “feelings” – just like the angel Moroni told them: “…ask God…and if ye shall ask with a sincere heart…he will manifest the truth of it unto you” (Moron 10:4). Notice three things: First, that laughable “test” is the same one all false religions tell their converts to use. Second, it is inconclusive because it can be effectively countered by someone else’s “sincere knowledge.” Third, the “test” is classic Age of Reason carnality because it relies on self-evidence and man being the measure of all things. Only Jesus Christ instructs His followers to reject the inputs of self and use His Book to know the truth. You must not only be able to recognize carnal Reasoning in others, you must also recognize it in you and never let yourself fall for it. All false religions will try to get you to stop using your Sword because it is the one thing they cannot handle. When witnessing you must stay focused on the Bible. If you find they are not interested in the Bible do not cast your pearls before swine. I say again, never allow yourself to be sidetracked into a discussion about the BOM, the NWT, the NAS, your “sincere feelings”, or layman’s aids based on the ERROR manuscripts. If people are interested in looking into the Bible version issue with you in order to see if the KJV really is the inspired word of God, fine, because if they don’t know the word of God exists you will be unable to get them to abandon Reason and by faith submit to the authority of the word of God. All people who reject the existence of the word of God as defined by God are Bible rejecters. Let them alone. Never be tricked by carnal Reason into fighting for the King without His Sword.

The above Mormon example is different from the JW example. The JW example involved the dependable infallibility of the KJV. The Mormon example involved the kind of attention to specific words that only comes from a belief that God selected each and every word in the Authorized Version for a reason. Both examples illustrate the importance of using the infallible King James Bible to contend for the faith. No other version can compete with The Truth. No other sword slices through doctrinal errors and exposes the thoughts and intents of the heart like the King’s Sword.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I spent many months thinking about this. Please help me understand why this mormon missionary failed, and give me advice to refute this guy attack on LDS.

Galatians 1:6-9 is the famous scripture about if the apostles or an angel bring another gospel they are to be accursed. However it fails in the light of the definition of the Gospel before verse 6 and after verse 9. In other words CONTEXT matters. And he nitpicked the four verses without consulting the rest of the chapter.

The RLDS now C of C has the rights to the Joseph Smith Translation.

The New Testament in its entirety was written LONG after the death of Christ, the last books going there 70 years after the death of Christ, and canonized in its current form 350 years afterwards.

THe question about the Melchizedek Priesthood can be answered thus: It is his belief that the priesthood was immortal by immortal beings. He basically is saying that Melchizedek is Jesus Christ, which is even more flawed. Jesus Christ had a mother, Mary, so even he doesn't fulfill those requirements.

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A Random Phrase
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by A Random Phrase »

In answer to the op question. People have freedom to choose. It is impossible to convert everyone. The man had his truth. He was so secure in it that he didn't feel angered or threatened, or so he says. He didn't want more light and knowledge. All had to conform with a dead book - and his version of it.

The best thing I can say is to look for the honest seekers after truth. Look for those who don't think they have all the answers already. Know the Bible. Know the Book of Mormon. Know the rest of the scriptures. Read with a hunger to have God reveal to you all of the truth you will need to be His missionary, and to be able to bring souls to Him.

Ammon and his fellows fasted much and prayed much. They had a strong desire to share the gospel. Read about them.

Persuasion, love unfeigned, and so forth, as the D&C says is also what you can do. Study that, too.

Do your best and, above all, understand that not everyone will accept the message. No matter how much mission presidents and other leaders push, you cannot and should not try to override other people's freedom to choose their destinies.

e-eye2.0
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by e-eye2.0 »

I spent the first 6 months of my mission learning all the different scripture bashing scriptures I could find. I spent the next 18 months of my mission never bible bashing. Those who have an open heart and are seeking the truth will listen to the gospel and accept it. Those who deny it will never know true happiness.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by Rose Garden »

I'll echo what everyone else is saying. The missionary didn't fail. This man failed. His writing eeks pride. He went into the meeting with the intent to shut them down, not learn truth. His behavior would have been entirely different if he had actually wanted to learn something.

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shadow
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by shadow »

He wasn't even a missionary, he was an RM. Not that it matters.

NazareneNun
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by NazareneNun »

Thank all you for your help.

nvr: well, pharisees also tried an smarter-than-thou with Christ yet He calmly exposed them and left them speechless. I would like to see an experienced mormon putting this man in his place.

sarah: its even worse. If you (or anyone) feel curious read this http://www.theswordbearer.org/p005_summaries.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; to see how crazy this man cult is. He claims to be a cathar (despite that he can't prove that his doctrine has any actual resemblance to catharism), because there is some kind of spiritual bloodline that goes this way: paulicians > bogomils > cathars > King James > himself, so King James was a cathar prophet. He calls Lucifer an "heretical christian", and preachs that heaven and hell are only for christians, because non-christians are talking beasts with no immortal soul. Only "cathars" (his cult, since other christians are "luciferian hellbound heretics") would be in heaven, where everyone would speak KJV (elizabethean) english.

samizdat: this man ignores context all the time, yet he likes to fill his web with tons of bible verses to make his doctrine look biblical. He places the letter above the spirit, exactly like pharisees did.

A Random Phrase: your words have wisdom, but if this man can't be redeemed he shoud be exposed. This man preachs that communism is Godly (because freedom and democracy are luciferian) and that nazis were morally above americans because they "understood what true obedience means". I suspect he is a psychopath, since he gives me the same vibe of O'Brien from Ninety Eighty-Four. He may be the False Prophet, in which case he would turn USA into North Korea in God Name.

e-eye2.0: do you think this man may be a son of perdition?

Meili: of course, but maybe if someone breaks his pride he would rethink his ways.

shadow: thanks for the info, anyway.

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Rose Garden
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by Rose Garden »

NazareneNun, if you heard the Pharisees' story from their perspective, I doubt it would be the same as the Bible. Any humiliating shut downs would have been left out. Remember, the Jews who were out-smarted by Jesus are the ones who killed him. They held a trial for him first where their rhetoric very well could have sounded like this man's. He's the one telling the story. The story probably would sound very different coming from the missionaries. As far as we know, he could have been outright lying.

Recall the story in the Book of Mormon where Alma contended with Korihor? You may recall that Alma won that debate by virtue of the power of God, with Korihor leaving mute. But when Korihor asked to have his voice restored, Alma said that if it were, he would immediately begin seeking to lead the people astray again. The failing was in his heart and apparently there was no changing that.

If we are to become like Christ, we are going to have to learn to accept that some people will not change, no matter how clever or convincing our argument. Those who love to lie will twist and turn the truth to their benefit every time they can manage to get away with it. The humble followers of Christ learn to be willing to wait for the judgment day when it will be impossible for any man to lie and those who have loved lying will inherit hell. That is the time when those who have been slandered by their tales will be vindicated.

NazareneNun
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by NazareneNun »

Meili:
Of course, this man may be lying. A thing I noticed about his web is how banners with quotes from people praising his cult are everywhere. This strikes me as narcissistic. A narcisist never acknowledges defeat. Somewhere this man tells how some years ago he was confronted by a catholic priest, yet he refuses to reveal how their exchange ended, stating something like "its God who decides who wins". This makes me think that he was shut down by the catholic priest, yet he devised a way of talking about it without either lying or acknowledging his defeat, while at the same time trying to look holy. Typical narcissistic behavior. Also, his doctrine is incredibly narcissistic: non-christians as talking beasts and non-"cathars" as hellbound heretics. Only his cult has immorality and salvation, everyone else being fated to oblivion or torment. I wonder if Lucifer himself would be able to eek such pride. BTW, in case you want to know about pharisaic viewpoint about Jesus read the Talmud. I warn you is horribly blasphemous. Luther wrote an antisemitic treatrise after reading it.

Valid point, but Korihor was a typical atheist, while this man is a fanatical cult leader. He proudly claims to be "an absolute dictator" over his "perfectly submissive wife" and advocates beatings for children not only for discipline but "to teach them that true authority is arbitrary". Demonic.

Of course you are right. I open this topic because I feel its my duty to do something about this man. I hope no mormon is catch off guard again by this cult leader.

braingrunt
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by braingrunt »

I have a notion NN is trying to lay a snare. If so, it would be best to ignore this thread.

And if not, so what: trashing on the op is pointless anyway.

(Any apologies to NN if warranted)

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Warrior Of Jah
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by Warrior Of Jah »

Failed? look for them, they have the priesthood, they represent Jeovah the Living Christthey are the only on the face of the earth that can preach the gospel forth to the nations in the name of Christ.
The only one who fail is those who reject this prophets of God.
Get a Book Of Mormon and get a testimony of the truth!!!!!!!!

jim
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by jim »

Here are some thoughts I had after reading the OP. Honestly these won't convince him, because it's the Spirit converts, not the better argument; though these ideas may help to create a better defense next time. In addition to the great explanations already given above I would add the following.
The man had a very clever slight of hand when swapping the word Testament and Gospel ... since you agree the BoM is another testament and therefore gospel, and Paul says in Galatians a man is accursed for going after another gospel... you're cursed for obeying it.
Him saying that Jesus Christ had to die for the bible is an incorrect interpretation as well. Christ didn't die to establish the bible, but to establish the new Covenant which was the law of the Spirit rather than being bound under the law of carnal commandments given in the law of Moses, which required the death of the testator for the covenant to be in force. In light of that I would ask what Paul meant when he said that in the mouth or 2 or 3 witnesses shall every word be established. Where are the additional witnesses of the book of Revelation, since all of the apostles were killed by the time it was written?
I know we like to say that Joseph Smith died as a martyr for the Book of Mormon or the church, but he did defend himself with a pistol and injured (or killed) 3 men in the mob, so I personally wouldn't use that argument, even though I think he was justified in defending himself under those circumstances.
"Only Jesus Christ instructs His followers to reject the inputs of self and use His Book to know the truth." Actually Christ instructs followers to do the will of God, then will they know the doctrine, whether it is of God, or whether a man made it up [John 7:17 paraphrased]. I would also say that unless someone really wants to know the truth, and please God and is willing to ask, seek, and knock, He will never open the truth to them and they can't progress. Christ couldn't even convert many of the Jews He was around, they were so hard-hearted that they called the only sinless man to walk the earth evil, and that He did His works by the devil. Don't feel to bad if people persecute you and say all manner of evil against you, they did that with the prophets too. He that receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man, receives a righteous man's reward, he that receives a prophet in the name of a prophet receives a prophet's reward.

gardener4life
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Re: Why this mormon missionary failed? How can I do better than him?

Post by gardener4life »

Rather than pity the missionary, I would weep for this man. This man WAS lying not may have been lying. And it doesn't matter if he's an atheist or not. The fact was that Korihor purposely chose a path to destroy others. Korihor can still represent any faith, same as Sherem that tries to destroy others. People who try to destroy others generally over inflate their experiences and their victories. He may have claimed a victory that was way embellished just from the other guy not understanding why this guy couldn't accept truth. People with lying hearts also lie to themselves and over time their perception gets muddled. --> Like Laman Lemuel were so infected with the poison of pride and corruption that they lost their way not just in truth but they began to have mental problems. People that lie to God and themselves and other Telestial behaviors will have mental problems (I'm not saying that everyone who has problems is like this however. Everyone was put here to have challenges in a lot of different ways.)

This reminds me too there used to be this one group in my mission they would purposely get baptized and within days do letters to withdraw just so they could claim they were ex mormons. (Little do they know what will happen to them in the afterlife for such reckless behavior!) And they did that as a prestige to go witness among other faiths how they'd combatted and been victimized by mormons even though the real people around them had no idea they were being false from the very beginning. Relating this helps understand this guy never would have accepted truth in the beginning.

So today I was looking at the Japanese Book of Mormon. Its interesting that false churches translates to lying churches in Japanese and other OLD languages. Its interesting how there is different meaning in the scriptures.

At any rate, this guy bragging that he didn't feel truth happened because he's a Telestial person...or worse. People who are really in that kingdom unfortunately are dead inside. He couldn't feel truth if his life depended on it because he'd probably spent his whole life looking down on others. I have a brother like this. It wasn't just about religion it was the idea that when he's around other people he will always be in this mind game of proving he has to be better than the other person, proving the might of the flesh. (Now can you see why trusting in the might of the flesh is such a big downer? It's a perfect setup to fall. The message ignored, gaining a future ignored; just straight competition and trying to get one over on the other person ignoring all rules and ignoring if you deserve something or not; cheat to win, dig a pit for the neighbor, help push the neighbor in the pit. That's all the matters to that kind of mentality. He shows that his psyche was only about dominance and not about cooperation or peace. The spirit of war and the Holy Spirit can't be in the same place. And the spirit of war has more than just to do with physical battle, but spiritual battle and enmity. (He follows the spirit he lists to obey --> in this case he follows the spirit of war and pride. So the spirit of peace and love of Christ has no part with him. From this we can have an idea how awful it must have been in the days of Mormon and Moroni with everyone like this mostly, except for a stalwart few.)

Can I co-exist with others? If I can I want them to have peace and prosperity. Can I hope for others to be blessed and not just think of myself? I won't feel threatened if they have more than me. I pray for the success of eternal matters for others and not only myself. I hope and wish for prosperity for others that are Christian even if they aren't Mormon. It works and can be done because I don't seek the rewards of this life and this Earth; I seek the rewards of the life after. (Thoughts from Alma Chapter 5; variations of wording on the questions there; including if you have felt the redeeming love of the Savior can you feel so now?)

These thoughts of the love of the Savior buoy us up when the adversity of this life crashes upon us. Indeed the adversity of this life WILL have to crash upon us and this world because of the rejection of the Spirit of the Gospel and the people embracing a spirit of war.

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