My Experience with Denver Snuffer

[Silver]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophecy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

[investigator]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophesy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

When a convincing response is not available, just resort to name calling. I go in peace.

[Silver]

The point is anyone can be ordained to be a PSR; but the gift to prophecy, reveal new doctrine, or to see or translate can only be obtained from God, not an invitational ordination by man. Earthly "authority" allows you to order submissive people around but it does not make you a Functional PSR.

I can promise you one thing. You won't always enjoy being apostate. When the fun stops (but hopefully sooner), please return to full fellowship in God's only recognized kingdom on earth.

When a convincing response is not available, just resort to name calling. I go in peace.

Are you a male? If that is true and I call you "a man," is that name-calling? If you are apostate and I say so, does that constitute name-calling?

[Alaris]

Try to think of how the brethren would handle such a situation. I doubt they would call someone apostate and just stick to love unfeigned, truth, and invitation.

[Finrock]

22 But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother shall be in danger of his judgment. And whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council; and whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

That phrase, "Raca", effectively means, "apostate". We shouldn't go around calling people apostate because we disagree with what they are teaching. There is a process involved in determining if someone is apostate and a single person on the internet proclaiming one to be an apostate is not it. An apostate is determined by a council after hearing all of the evidence, pro and con. It is determined after much pondering and prayer. It is, hopefully, determined by a full council of High Priest who are true to their priesthood covenants and who have nothing but love for the person who stands before them to be judged. This council, in each Stake, determines who is an apostate as far as the Church is concerned.

A person who goes around accusing others of being "apostate" is in danger of the council themselves. And, even if a council of High Priest do judge a person to be apostate, we still should not treat that person with contempt or call them evil and accursed. To do so puts us be in danger of hell fire ourselves.

Instead, we are to:

...love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them who despitefully use you and persecute you;

45 That ye may be the children of your Father who is in heaven; for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Do you spend your days putting flowers in your hair and singing We are the World?

True We don't know what is in any body's heart, but we do know if what they are promoting is heretical. We do have an obligation to not turn away from calling it as it is, just because telling the truth might hurt some heretics feelings.

that is how they draw people away from Christ.

I don't know your heart. However, from reading your posts, I often wonder, over time, how much you have accepted heretical beliefs either, because you are sympathetic to them being "insulted" or "persecuted". Or possibly, because you think splitting the difference between their heresies, and the truth is some sort of honorable compromise.

You may just be putting flowers in your hair and singing we are the world, and be perfectly insulated from actually believing this crap, but I would suggest that you be extremely cautious. I wouldn't want you to sell your soul for some perceived peace and nicety.

Regards,

George Clay

[Finrock]

Finrock,

Do you spend your days putting flowers in your hair and singing We are the World?

True We don't know what is in any body's heart, but we do know if what they are promoting is heretical. We do have an obligation to not turn away from calling it as it is, just because telling the truth might hurt some heretics feelings.

that is how they draw people away from Christ.

I don't know your heart. However, from reading your posts, I often wonder, over time, how much you have accepted heretical beliefs either, because you are sympathetic to them being "insulted" or "persecuted". Or possibly, because you think splitting the difference between their heresies, and the truth is some sort of honorable compromise.

You may just be putting flowers in your hair and singing we are the world, and be perfectly insulated from actually believing this crap, but I would suggest that you be extremely cautious. I wouldn't want you to sell your soul for some perceived peace and nicety.

Regards,

George Clay

Jesus commanded me to love my enemy. He said I shouldn't get angry at others. He said I shouldn't accuse them of apostasy or regard them with contempt. He said that I shouldn't go around calling people evil and of the devil. These commandments apply to all people. You shouldn't disregard them so easily but rather you should take them seriously and attempt to live by them as He has said to do.

If you are in the business of helping others come on to Christ it isn't accomplished by accusations, ridicule, mockery, name calling, or any other such method. In most cases people don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. If your goal is to make the "believing" crowd laugh and to get applause from those already "converted" to your perspective, you can certainly accomplish that with accusations, ridicule, mockery, name calling, and other such methods. There are many in the large and spacious building who are ready to point the finger of scorn, to mock, and to ridicule those who are trying to obey the commandments of Jesus Christ such as loving your enemy, doing good to your enemies, and praying for those who use you and ridicule you.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

He said I shouldn't accuse them of apostasy ...

You carelessly lump too much together. I won't argue with ridiculing or calling names, however you don't seem to be able to discriminate between ridiculing someone one and calling out their apostasy. So Since you said that Jesus said that you shouldn't accuse anybody of apostasy, please help a scripturally ignorant person such as I and cite your sources.

'Regards,

George Clay

[Jonesy]

I try and refrain from name calling, but I at least hope to persuade others of their erroneous path.

From the Words of Joseph Smith. Sounds kind of mean, but I guess we can't judge his heart:

so the Sadducee saints mock at authority, kick out of the traces, and run to the mountains of perdition, leaving the long echo of their braying behind them.19

The speaker then contrasted the charity of the sects, in denouncing all who disagree with them in opinion, and in joining in persecuting the saints, with the faith of the saints, who believe that even such may be saved20 in this world and in the world to come, (murderers and apostates excepted.)

[Finrock]

Finrock,

He said I shouldn't accuse them of apostasy ...

You carelessly lump too much together. I won't argue with ridiculing or calling names, however you don't seem to be able to discriminate between ridiculing someone one and calling out their apostasy. So Since you said that Jesus said that you shouldn't accuse anybody of apostasy, please help a scripturally ignorant person such as I and cite your sources.

'Regards,

George Clay

You aren't reading carefully, George.

-Finrock

[gclayjr]

Finrock,

Jesus commanded me to love my enemy. He said I shouldn't get angry at others. He said I shouldn't accuse them of apostasy or regard them with contempt. He said that I shouldn't go around calling people evil and of the devil. These commandments apply to all people. You shouldn't disregard them so easily but rather you should take them seriously and attempt to live by them as He has said to do.

You carelessly lump too much together. I won't argue with ridiculing or calling names, however you don't seem to be able to discriminate between ridiculing someone one and calling out their apostasy. So Since you said that Jesus said that you shouldn't accuse anybody of apostasy, please help a scripturally ignorant person such as I and cite your sources.

You aren't reading carefully, George.

Then illuminate me. Isn't that the purpose of this board? If this isn't the purpose of your comment, then what IS the purpose of your comment?

Regards,

George Clay

PS: don't weasel out with

You shouldn't disregard them so easily but rather you should take them seriously and attempt to live by them as He has said to do

because if you really read carefully you will see that that doesn't either answer my question or clarify your point!....unless you can quote Jesus on this one

PPS: to save you a wasted exercise, Matthew 3:7 doesn't cut it either, because it doesn't address doctrine, just judging people...remember what I have stated is that

You carelessly lump too much together

which actually might more closely fit with what you accuse others of, than the identification of apostasy which seems to so much get your panties in a twist!... interestingly this scripture also seems to apply so often in the past when you get your panties in a twist..hmmmmmm

[Warrior Of Jah]

I don't know who is Denver Snuffer but i already have a prophet called by God to seek but i think that some utah dummies like this

[Seek the Truth]

Yes. Practice. Something to point us to the real thing, hopefully, to give us yearnings for the real thing.

The endowment actually is what is doing the pointing.

[Seek the Truth]

Try to think of how the brethren would handle such a situation. I doubt they would call someone apostate and just stick to love unfeigned, truth, and invitation.

Personally I look at how Jesus treated the Pharisees and Sadducees.

[Alaris]

Try to think of how the brethren would handle such a situation. I doubt they would call someone apostate and just stick to love unfeigned, truth, and invitation.

Personally I look at how Jesus treated the Pharisees and Sadducees.

Because that's what the Savior wanted
... All of us calling people hypocrites and whited sepulchres. All that love on another, turn the other cheek, forgive seventy times seven, D&C 121 doesn't apply. He wants us to treat people on the internet discussing the gospel like pharisees who approached the Savior with deceit in their hearts. Good job.

[Seek the Truth]

Lol, I can't change what happened. The reality is Jesus could be confrontational and condemnatory. I believe in being nice to those that deserve it and confronting those that deserve it, based on the example of the savior.

[Alaris]

Lol, I can't change what happened. The reality is Jesus could be confrontational and condemnatory. I believe in being nice to those that deserve it and confronting those that deserve it, based on the example of the savior.

Please find the scripture that commands us to be nice to those that deserve it. It's truly pathetic how many people on LDSFF justify mistreating others against the second greatest commandment in the name of following the Savior. Love thy neighbor as thyself. It's simple enough that children understand it.

[Seek the Truth]

There's tough love too. Look, Jesus drove money changers out of the temple. He compared Peter to Satan. That's our exemplar. Jesus wasn't a doormat.

[Alaris]

There's tough love too. Look, Jesus drove money changers out of the temple. He compared Peter to Satan. That's our exemplar. Jesus wasn't a doormat.

Yeah He was the master and our ultimate judge. I've heard that excuse many times here. Nobody is selling in the temple on LDSFF. Come follow me does not mean to invite contention behind the safety of anonymity. He commands us not to contend in 3 Nephi 11. I'm pretty sure He doesn't want us calling each other Satan either. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

[Seek the Truth]

I don't know. I can't think of a Prophet in scripture that didn't harshly confront people when needed. Outright condemning. Goodness, the whole book of Isaiah is a ripfest of apostate Israel.

[Alaris]

That's a great point. Maybe we can just condemn people when we disagree with them and somehow not invite the spirit of contention as was commanded us. Do you believe the brethren are called of the Lord Himself? If so perhaps you should reconsider my original suggestion to imagine how they would treat those with whom they disagree on these forums.

[Seek the Truth]

Which brethren. Brigham Young? Joseph Smith? Bruce McConkie? Boyd Packer? Some of the things they said may surprise people.

I have no problem being nice to people that are confused, unlearned, new to ideas, we've all been there. I have no problem agreeing to disagree agreeably.

But when one goes into deception, teaching of false doctrine and apostasy we have plenty of example what to do there.

[Alaris]

D&C 121 is the guide. Reproving is the exception and only when moved upon by the holy ghost...not necessarily when people are deceiving and presenting false doctrine though I've certainly had my share of instances whereupon I was moved by the Holy Ghost in exactly those situations. As long as we can agree on that principle of the necessary element of the Holy Ghost. That and there is that increase of love after. ;)

[Silver Pie]

Yes. Practice. Something to point us to the real thing, hopefully, to give us yearnings for the real thing.

The endowment actually is what is doing the pointing.

I don't remember the context for this, and I'm not going to go looking, but you are right that the endowment is trying to point us to the real thing: an audience with angels, then-after being true and faithful-parting the veil and seeing our Lord.

[Alaris]

Yes. Practice. Something to point us to the real thing, hopefully, to give us yearnings for the real thing.

The endowment actually is what is doing the pointing.

I don't remember the context for this, and I'm not going to go looking, but you are right that the endowment is trying to point us to the real thing: an audience with angels, then-after being true and faithful-parting the veil and seeing our Lord.

Thanks SP! I needed to hear (read) that.