My Experience with Denver Snuffer

[gtoda]

As I have gone through a major faith crisis recently I am so leery or reticent to accept the authority of anyone now. I'm having a hard time relating to people who have turned their devotion away from the church and given it to Denver Snuffer. A friend of mine is leaning toward DS but I just can't see the big deal. I've tried to read DS essays but honestly I end up so frustrated. Perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth or mental acumen but I just don't get DS. There are certainly points he makes that I agree with but he sounds a little crazy to me. I'm having a hard enough time shoring up my belief in the Savior. I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human.

[Thomas]

As I have gone through a major faith crisis recently I am so leery or reticent to accept the authority of anyone now. I'm having a hard time relating to people who have turned their devotion away from the church and given it to Denver Snuffer. A friend of mine is leaning toward DS but I just can't see the big deal. I've tried to read DS essays but honestly I end up so frustrated. Perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth or mental acumen but I just don't get DS. There are certainly points he makes that I agree with but he sounds a little crazy to me. I'm having a hard enough time shoring up my belief in the Savior. I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human.

I really think this is a big problem:

I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human

People think it is a contest between which men would should be loyal to. There is only one being to be loyal to. That is Christ. The church mentality is so focused on loyalty to the brethren that they think the only alternative is loyalty to another man or set of men. The switch from loyalty to men to loyalty to deity is a major theme of Snuffer's message. He does not want your loyalty or your worship.

A friend of mine is leaning toward DS

If the lean is not to Christ, then the point has been missed. Christ is a real being who is willing to talk and communicate with you. Our salvation comes from him. Not from faith or loyalty to men.

If you have doubt, reach out to God. Humble yourself before him and ask for his hand in your life.

[Rose Garden]

As I have gone through a major faith crisis recently I am so leery or reticent to accept the authority of anyone now. I'm having a hard time relating to people who have turned their devotion away from the church and given it to Denver Snuffer. A friend of mine is leaning toward DS but I just can't see the big deal. I've tried to read DS essays but honestly I end up so frustrated. Perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth or mental acumen but I just don't get DS. There are certainly points he makes that I agree with but he sounds a little crazy to me. I'm having a hard enough time shoring up my belief in the Savior. I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human.

I really think this is a big problem:

I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human

People think it is a contest between which men would should be loyal to. There is only one being to be loyal to. That is Christ. The church mentality is so focused on loyalty to the brethren that they think the only alternative is loyalty to another man or set of men. The switch from loyalty to men to loyalty to deity is a major theme of Snuffer's message. He does not want your loyalty or your worship.

A friend of mine is leaning toward DS

If the lean is not to Christ, then the point has been missed. Christ is a real being who is willing to talk and communicate with you. Our salvation comes from him. Not from faith or loyalty to men.

If you have doubt, reach out to God. Humble yourself before him and ask for his hand in your life.

Thomas, I agree with what you have said, and yet I have often struggled with the question of why Jesus would be so intent upon us worshiping him and no one else. Why is it okay to believe that he is all great and wonderful but not to believe that of anyone here on earth? My confusion comes from having learned that we are truly supposed to become like Christ and so any time there is something that is supposed to set him apart from us, I start to wonder.

[Thomas]

As I have gone through a major faith crisis recently I am so leery or reticent to accept the authority of anyone now. I'm having a hard time relating to people who have turned their devotion away from the church and given it to Denver Snuffer. A friend of mine is leaning toward DS but I just can't see the big deal. I've tried to read DS essays but honestly I end up so frustrated. Perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth or mental acumen but I just don't get DS. There are certainly points he makes that I agree with but he sounds a little crazy to me. I'm having a hard enough time shoring up my belief in the Savior. I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human.

I really think this is a big problem:

I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human

People think it is a contest between which men would should be loyal to. There is only one being to be loyal to. That is Christ. The church mentality is so focused on loyalty to the brethren that they think the only alternative is loyalty to another man or set of men. The switch from loyalty to men to loyalty to deity is a major theme of Snuffer's message. He does not want your loyalty or your worship.

A friend of mine is leaning toward DS

If the lean is not to Christ, then the point has been missed. Christ is a real being who is willing to talk and communicate with you. Our salvation comes from him. Not from faith or loyalty to men.

If you have doubt, reach out to God. Humble yourself before him and ask for his hand in your life.

Thomas, I agree with what you have said, and yet I have often struggled with the question of why Jesus would be so intent upon us worshiping him and no one else. Why is it okay to believe that he is all great and wonderful but not to believe that of anyone here on earth? My confusion comes from having learned that we are truly supposed to become like Christ and so any time there is something that is supposed to set him apart from us, I start to wonder.

Christ has the keys to the resurrection. He is the advocate for us to the Father. No man can fulfill that role. so, if you want to be resurrected follow the one that can resurrect you. Men can only tell you of Christ. They cannot substitute for him and do his job. They are severely limited in their ability to produce a new body for you.

[Rose Garden]

Thanks for your response, Thomas. I'll ponder on that.

[Thomas]

I think the danger is in thinking that loyalty to men saves us.

Mosiah 3:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

We can obey every commandment, remain loyal to the church and the brethren, attend the temple, do missionary work and home teaching but until we learn to heed the voice of Christ, which is what the Holy Ghost gives to us, then we remain an enemy to God.

It is only by gaining that voice in our lives and obeying that voice, which will tell us all things to do, that we are on the path to exaltation.

Is there any man that can do that for you? Is there a man that can follow you around, day and night and guide you in all things? I don't think so and even if you could find such a man, his advice would always be flawed. We can get advice from a perfect being that will guide you to where he has been.

Where to you want to go? Do want to go where man can go or where Christ has been? Christ knows the way because he has been there. Men have not. Therefore they do not have the knowledge to guide us.

[jwharton]

He does not want your loyalty or your worship.

The thing is I see a lot of instances where Denver says one thing but the subtle undertones appear to be deliberately pushing people into doing the opposite.

For example, why would he be making such a big deal of the 40 year span of time since he was baptized? What's all that about? Why carry on about it so much. To me it sounds like he is posturing as if he is the "prophet like unto Moses" that everyone should hear or else they would be "cut off" from among the people.

All good and valuable information I have seen from him is information he is quoting that others have said or from our own history. Beyond that, I don't discern much more than criticism that doesn't really have any attending higher amount of light and truth.

For example, in his 3rd lecture he says the church government was given to the saints instead of some higher, more ancient and Adamic order, implying that the church was a form of punishment and lesser law for rejecting some higher order Joseph Smith was really going to do if he was given the chance. And, after making this totally spurious and speculative criticism is all he had to say was he was going to start working on whatever that higher more ancient order of Adam was. There are so many that have made similar claims and all of them that I have investigated all wind up being some big Grand Imperial Poobah that takes everyone's money, time, attractive wives, etc. as they chew to bits those who think they are sacrificing all to prove their faithfulness and that "God" is being put first in their lives.

There is a reason why in the latter-days it is said there are many who shall be false Christs. It is too tempting of a thing to come up with some little edge here or there that leads the gullible into believing they are the "special few" who are the "chosen elect" and so they fall for false Christ after false Christ. But, if you ask too many questions or start to pry into the areas where they are shown as charlatans then they become very insecure and can't have you kicked out fast enough. You soon find out they are not religious organizations with a founding constitution of individual unalienable rights that all are subject to, but rather than it is a group run by the whims of men.

I have seen several of them and so I know how it smells and I can clearly see this is where Denver Snuffer is heading.

[Thomas]

Where is it heading?

I want to be perfectly clear right now about something which has not, and will not ever change about me. I am unwilling to give you commandments. When have I ever commanded you? I am unwilling to lead. When have I ever said, “Follow me?” I am unwilling to organize you. When have I ever said, “I want to lead an organization?” I am unwilling to accept money. When have I ever said, “Pay me?” We have enough Gentile leaders. We have good enough churches already. When those churches err, they suffer the consequences. We do not need another church or churches. We do not need a king. We do not need more priestcraft. We do not need a “Strongman.”

The “Strongman” model is the opposite of that prophecy. It would prevent Zion, precisely because God must dwell among the people. If He does not dwell among the people it is impossible to have Zion because Zion is a place where God comes to dwell among them. And if God is dwelling among the people, no one need say, "Know ye the Lord," for everyone shall know Him who is there. (Jer. 31: 34.) The false construct of the “Strongman” has got to be replaced because it invites you to neglect the duty devolving upon each of you.

I'll tell you what you get with the “Strongman” model: you get Brigham Young who takes women who are already married to other men and not divorced, seals them to himself with his purported keys, and then proceeds to father children with them.
Brigham Young condemned Parley Pratt for doing the exactly the same thing. He even observed at Parley's death that he probably deserved to be killed by the jealous husband because it was adultery for Parley to have done what he did. Brigham pronounced his own condemnation in this. What then is the distinction between the conduct of Brigham Young on the one hand, and the exact same conduct of Parley Pratt on the other hand in the religion of Brigham Young? The difference lies in the fact that Brigham Young claimed to have the keys. If keys allow adultery, I want no such keys. If keys allow adultery, then I say damn me now because I want nothing of it, or of your pretended keys. I don't think that the pretenders in all of the various “Strongman” models have any clue what it would take to bring again Zion. They do not kneel down to serve and elevate others through their teachings in the least. They have no glory of God within them, and therefore cannot instill light and truth upon those who will hear them speak. The only way to bring again Zion is if you rise up. You must come to know the Lord, not just me. The only way is if you comprehend the Gospel of Christ, accept the invitation, prepare your heart, prepare your mind, prepare your soul, clean yourself up, leave behind your sins, and come and face the Lord.

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... n-Zion.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you think it is about Denver, you missed the point.

Its a grass roots organization, without structure. No one can be kicked out.

[jwharton]

Where is it heading?

I want to be perfectly clear right now about something which has not, and will not ever change about me. I am unwilling to give you commandments. When have I ever commanded you? I am unwilling to lead. When have I ever said, “Follow me?” I am unwilling to organize you. When have I ever said, “I want to lead an organization?” I am unwilling to accept money. When have I ever said, “Pay me?” We have enough Gentile leaders. We have good enough churches already. When those churches err, they suffer the consequences. We do not need another church or churches. We do not need a king. We do not need more priestcraft. We do not need a “Strongman.”

The “Strongman” model is the opposite of that prophecy. It would prevent Zion, precisely because God must dwell among the people. If He does not dwell among the people it is impossible to have Zion because Zion is a place where God comes to dwell among them. And if God is dwelling among the people, no one need say, "Know ye the Lord," for everyone shall know Him who is there. (Jer. 31: 34.) The false construct of the “Strongman” has got to be replaced because it invites you to neglect the duty devolving upon each of you.

I'll tell you what you get with the “Strongman” model: you get Brigham Young who takes women who are already married to other men and not divorced, seals them to himself with his purported keys, and then proceeds to father children with them.
Brigham Young condemned Parley Pratt for doing the exactly the same thing. He even observed at Parley's death that he probably deserved to be killed by the jealous husband because it was adultery for Parley to have done what he did. Brigham pronounced his own condemnation in this. What then is the distinction between the conduct of Brigham Young on the one hand, and the exact same conduct of Parley Pratt on the other hand in the religion of Brigham Young? The difference lies in the fact that Brigham Young claimed to have the keys. If keys allow adultery, I want no such keys. If keys allow adultery, then I say damn me now because I want nothing of it, or of your pretended keys. I don't think that the pretenders in all of the various “Strongman” models have any clue what it would take to bring again Zion. They do not kneel down to serve and elevate others through their teachings in the least. They have no glory of God within them, and therefore cannot instill light and truth upon those who will hear them speak. The only way to bring again Zion is if you rise up. You must come to know the Lord, not just me. The only way is if you comprehend the Gospel of Christ, accept the invitation, prepare your heart, prepare your mind, prepare your soul, clean yourself up, leave behind your sins, and come and face the Lord.

http://denversnuffer.com/wp/wp-content/ ... n-Zion.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you think it is about Denver, you missed the point.

Its a grass roots organization, without structure. No one can be kicked out.

If it is something someone is not at risk of being "cut off" from then it offers nothing but confusion and everyone going their own separate ways all revering the image of their own God.

[Thomas]

There is chaos for sure. But out of that chaos is the hope for Zion. Those that establish a real connection with Christ and follow his voice will achieve Zion. Many will fall to wayside as well. There is no safety. No man that cannot lead us astray. Many will walk down strange and forbidden paths.

It is the only way Zion can come.

[jwharton]

There is chaos for sure. But out of that chaos is the hope for Zion. Those that establish a real connection with Christ and follow his voice will achieve Zion. Many will fall to wayside as well. There is no safety. No man that cannot lead us astray. Many will walk down strange and forbidden paths.

It is the only way Zion can come.

This is what I find so annoying.
Some say it is not to follow men and some say it is to follow men.
The fact that remains is Zion does have authorized and ordained officers that have duties all should sustain and respect. It is possible for those in those offices to go awry and so this is why in the written constitution of Zion that there are provisions for everyone to be held accountable. While there is order and of necessity offices thereby, there is also a system of checks and balances that can be clearly seen and understood when you have all of the appropriate keys of how the priesthood is to function.

Those who say Zion is to be outside of the organization of the church government are cut off and will remain cut off if they are turning their heel to those the Lord has ordained, despite their infirmities and imperfections.

It isn't all one way or the other. It is an appropriate balance of principles with Christ in the center.

[A Random Phrase]

But, if you ask too many questions or start to pry into the areas where they are shown as charlatans then they become very insecure and can't have you kicked out fast enough.

Kicked out of what? Denver is starting no formal organization.

[A Random Phrase]

If it is something someone is not at risk of being "cut off" from then it offers nothing but confusion and everyone going their own separate ways all revering the image of their own God.

Yes. Following the Spirit is not necessarily an easy thing to do. To each have their own connection to God. To have prophets who preach that each person should have their own connection to heaven, and see the Lord in the flesh, instead of relying on men to talk to heaven for them.

It can appear to be totally chaotic, but the beauty of it is in God's incredible respect for our freedom to choose. He will never force or coerce. We connect or not, as we choose.

And the key here is that we are all a part of God. Without Him, neither you nor I would be breathing right now. We wouldn't be sitting at keyboards (or phones, if that's what you're using) conversing with one another.

And it is that connection with God that we can become aware of and follow. But the journey is fraught with peril. We must have a genuine desire to know truth above all else. We must hunger and thirst after truth, willing to give up all of our lies, false paradigms, pride, things (belongings), even our good names, positions in society, and our lives. (It is in the scriptures, and it is spelled out in The Lectures on Faith.)

It can be very frightening to come to understand that we must come to Christ and rely only on Him for everything. Everything. We'll make mistakes. We can be led astray. It's quite the burden to think and act for ourselves. But that is exactly why we were put here on this planet.

[A Random Phrase]

The fact that remains is Zion does have authorized and ordained officers that have duties all should sustain and respect.

But how do you KNOW this is true? Where is there any description of Zion other than "the pure in heart" and an intimation that they "have all things in common"?

There is a scripture that seems to contradict your belief. This one.

They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea.

Isaiah 11:9 / 2 Nephi 21:9 / 2 Nephi 30:15

Everyone will know the Lord. There is no need or reason for "authorized and ordained officers that have duties all should sustain and respect." Zion is not that kind of society. It is so foreign to us that we would be convinced it cannot function. We would not be able to handle living in such a manner. We would be uncomfortable there.

We would pollute it with our needs to be right, to have some man rule over us, to argue and b*tch, to take pleasure in watching sex and violence after a hard day at work. We would pollute it in ways I don't know because I am still too polluted to live there or to comprehend what it would take to live there.

[Thomas]

There is chaos for sure. But out of that chaos is the hope for Zion. Those that establish a real connection with Christ and follow his voice will achieve Zion. Many will fall to wayside as well. There is no safety. No man that cannot lead us astray. Many will walk down strange and forbidden paths.

It is the only way Zion can come.

This is what I find so annoying.
Some say it is not to follow men and some say it is to follow men.
The fact that remains is Zion does have authorized and ordained officers that have duties all should sustain and respect. It is possible for those in those offices to go awry and so this is why in the written constitution of Zion that there are provisions for everyone to be held accountable. While there is order and of necessity offices thereby, there is also a system of checks and balances that can be clearly seen and understood when you have all of the appropriate keys of how the priesthood is to function.

Those who say Zion is to be outside of the organization of the church government are cut off and will remain cut off if they are turning their heel to those the Lord has ordained, despite their infirmities and imperfections.

It isn't all one way or the other. It is an appropriate balance of principles with Christ in the center.

That is the Telestial church model. It will not survive into the millennium. The problem is the church tries to claim we have Zion now. So I can understand why you would think that.

Zion is a flat model. If you want to be a leader, in Zion, bow down and serve. There is no requirement for respect of leaders. Christ is the example.

[LDS Dude]

Is that his real name: Denver Snuffer?

Yes.

I do the happy dance everytime I
read one of Dr. Jones posts!

The visual of that is awesome!

Ok, at first I thought it was some derogatory reference to a particular anti-Mormon, snuff referring to snuff film, or a film where someone is purported to have committed suicide. Snuff also referring to breaking the word of wisdom and Jack Mormons that could be defined by that general term. Then I just thought that must be the screen name of someone who lives near Denver, CO on some other forum that had gained a following amongst a few.

[jwharton]

But, if you ask too many questions or start to pry into the areas where they are shown as charlatans then they become very insecure and can't have you kicked out fast enough.

Kicked out of what? Denver is starting no formal organization.

I said this appears to be the direction he is heading in, that I have seen examples of before.

[jwharton]

This is what I find so annoying.
Some say it is not to follow men and some say it is to follow men.
The fact that remains is Zion does have authorized and ordained officers that have duties all should sustain and respect. It is possible for those in those offices to go awry and so this is why in the written constitution of Zion that there are provisions for everyone to be held accountable. While there is order and of necessity offices thereby, there is also a system of checks and balances that can be clearly seen and understood when you have all of the appropriate keys of how the priesthood is to function.

Those who say Zion is to be outside of the organization of the church government are cut off and will remain cut off if they are turning their heel to those the Lord has ordained, despite their infirmities and imperfections.

It isn't all one way or the other. It is an appropriate balance of principles with Christ in the center.

That is the Telestial church model.

I call that 100% bunk.
What I see happening surrounding DS is everyone being encouraged to throw off their organizational ties and to more or less all go their own way and do their own thing.
I can understand people being enticed by this but it isn't going to bring to pass the unity and oneness that Zion requires.

It will not survive into the millennium.

This is just like saying Adam had no more need of Eve once He was redeemed and She was disbanded rather than accompanying the Father in His victory and regaining the throne during the Millennium.

This is utterly ridiculous to me.

That which is Telestial in nature is all individuals more or less doing their own thing with everyone varying to one degree or another in terms of their level of glory. The Terrestrial and the Celestial are one. They have unity one way or the other.

The Celestial has unity because they actually all enter into the covenants that seals them together in a covenant body that is presided over by a leadership body that functions in accordance with Celestial Law with the Father ruling and reigning over the kingdom of the greater light to rule the day.

The Terrestrial has unity because if you are not part of the Father's Kingdom you are divided over into the kingdom of the lesser light to rule the night. This is a kingdom where you do as you are told or else you are put to death physically. Those who inherit this kingdom are not under a government that respects their individual agency, but rather that is global communism that shall have its dominion over all who reject the Father's Kingdom.

That is what the world stage is heading towards. You are either Celestial and garnered into this kingdom or you are going to be taken captive by the powers that be who are plunging this planet into global socialism/communism.

All else that rejects the Celestial and then also rejects the Terrestrial is culled, which includes everyone who scatters and goes their own way thinking the gods of their own imaginations will save them.

The problem is the church tries to claim we have Zion now. So I can understand why you would think that.

False assumption/innuendo about me.

Yes, Adam and Eve are still in need of redemption and all is not well, but throwing yourself out of Eve's body and saying Eve is now irrelevant is just not at all what is going to further you in the path of exaltation.

Zion is a flat model. If you want to be a leader, in Zion, bow down and serve. There is no requirement for respect of leaders. Christ is the example.

Zion is a covenant body that has an orderly structure to it.
There will be bishops, just as the restoration calls for, who do administer the common funds, etc.
There will be elders, seventies, apostles, prophets, etc. who minister to the body's spiritual needs, etc.
Those progressing in the various offices will be interviewed by those administrators who hold those keys.
There will be revelation received as Christ accomplishes through His Body of flesh and bones His will.

If DS is saying what you are saying here, it is clear to me he has not actually seen God as he claims to have.

[Thomas]

Thanks for your opinion Jwharton. I will stick to the scriptures about Zion.

[Thomas]

I think the danger is in thinking that loyalty to men saves us.

Mosiah 3:
19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.

We can obey every commandment, remain loyal to the church and the brethren, attend the temple, do missionary work and home teaching but until we learn to heed the voice of Christ, which is what the Holy Ghost gives to us, then we remain an enemy to God.

It is only by gaining that voice in our lives and obeying that voice, which will tell us all things to do, that we are on the path to exaltation.

Is there any man that can do that for you? Is there a man that can follow you around, day and night and guide you in all things? I don't think so and even if you could find such a man, his advice would always be flawed. We can get advice from a perfect being that will guide you to where he has been.

Where to you want to go? Do want to go where man can go or where Christ has been? Christ knows the way because he has been there. Men have not. Therefore they do not have the knowledge to guide us.

I guess certain people have stated that if you are doing all these things I colored above that you will automatically have the spirit.

I submit that these things can all be done void of the spirit. The Jews where quite diligent in keeping the commandments. Anyone can go through the motions. There is a great deal of humility that is necessary to hear the spirit. Many go through these motions with a sense of pride and self righteous satisfaction. Many do all these things with a sense of contempt for those they judge to be unrighteous.

10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.

11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.

12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

The Pharisee kept all the comandments but did so with a sense of contempt for those he judged to be unrighteous. As a result, he was not saved.

1 Nephi 17:22

22 And we know that the people who were in the land of Jerusalem were a righteous people; for they kept the statutes and judgments of the Lord, and all his commandments, according to the law of Moses; wherefore, we know that they are a righteous people; and our father hath judged them, and hath led us away because we would hearken unto his words; yea, and our brother is like unto him. And after this manner of language did my brethren murmur and complain against us

.

I know it very hard to accept this. It was very hard for the Jews to accept when Lehi preached repentance to people that kept the commandments.

It is hard work to hear the Lord. I know people want the easy way. They want a man to tell them all is well. They don't want to do the hard work of hearing the voice of the spirit.

[jwharton]

Thanks for your opinion Jwharton. I will stick to the scriptures about Zion.

What I have said is supported 100% by scriptures.
And, I am not coming up with excuses to discount section 107, I am respecting section 107.

[Thomas]

Thanks for your opinion Jwharton. I will stick to the scriptures about Zion.

What I have said is supported 100% by scriptures.
And, I am not coming up with excuses to discount section 107, I am respecting section 107.

I am sorry but 107 has nothing to do with Zion. 107 was given to church under condemnation not a Zion people.

[LukeAir2008]

Snuffer speaks about Brigham Young being sealed to women who were already married and classes this as adultery. Does he not realise that Joseph did the exact same thing ? Brigham Young did nothing and taught nothing other than that which he had seen Joseph do and heard Joseph say.

[jwharton]

Thanks for your opinion Jwharton. I will stick to the scriptures about Zion.

What I have said is supported 100% by scriptures.
And, I am not coming up with excuses to discount section 107, I am respecting section 107.

I am sorry but 107 has nothing to do with Zion. 107 was given to church under condemnation not a Zion people.

Denver says he intends to figure out what the more ancient Adamic order was, right?
Does Eve have any part of that ancient order that established Zion?
Or, was Eve just told to go and pick daisies?

[LukeAir2008]

As I have gone through a major faith crisis recently I am so leery or reticent to accept the authority of anyone now. I'm having a hard time relating to people who have turned their devotion away from the church and given it to Denver Snuffer. A friend of mine is leaning toward DS but I just can't see the big deal. I've tried to read DS essays but honestly I end up so frustrated. Perhaps I'm revealing my lack of depth or mental acumen but I just don't get DS. There are certainly points he makes that I agree with but he sounds a little crazy to me. I'm having a hard enough time shoring up my belief in the Savior. I definitely am not willing to offer up my fealty and devotion on a whim to another human.

It sounds like you're having a stupor of thought when you read these things. Let that be your answer.

I remember going to a ward and someone famous and successful got up to bear their testimony. I'd read about them in the Ensign and was expecting a spiritual giant. I couldn't understand when I felt nothing. There was a complete absence of the Spirit as this person spoke. I did eventually find out why.

Joseph Smith said that is the key. The person might have all the right credentials, the calling, the suit, the degrees, the title, or whatever it might be. But if they're not of God or if they're just pretending to live the gospel, you will not be edified. You will feel nothing.