My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Analyzing
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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boo wrote:
. I recognize now that with a few important exceptions...
Would you please name those exceptions?

jwharton
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Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

Analyzing wrote:For my clarity in understanding your view. Are you affirming the current President of the CoJCoLDS is the one person the Lord has designated as His Anointed Prophet who is THE Prophet for everything and can be called the living Oracle because this individual actually receives "thus saith the Lord" communications that are oracles?
I didn't claim that nor do I affirm it.
There hasn't been a "thus saith the Lord" oracle through the church president in over 100 years.
This isn't a matter of opinion as it is a simple undeniable fact.
You cannot receive Celestial Ministration when you do not adhere to Celestial Law.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by SpeedRacer »

jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization...
This is an example of how and why Denver Snuffer's influence is so damaging.
Somehow the net effect of his impact is to cause people to abandon building the Father's literal Kingdom here on earth.

I guess you did not read my whole post. This is from my reading of Joseph Smith, not Denver.
SpeedRacer wrote:God has no desire to rule and reign over you
The whole purpose of the priesthood is to rule and reign, but in a manner that employs righteous dominion.
Adam was given dominion over all things and commanded to bring it into subjection to His rule.
His purpose for doing so was to bring just governance to the world and salvation to the righteous.

Like I said, this is from my reading of the Lectures on Faith. They were accepted by the church as doctrine. They explain God better than any other source. They make all of the other scriptures on the subject make sense. I am sorry you refuse to entertain any other thought.
SpeedRacer wrote:he wants you as His equal
This is also a false and utterly arrogant fruit of Denver Snuffer's doctrine.
There is no single human being in flesh and blood that is going to be God's equal, ever.

Adam is in the image and likeness of the Eloheim and therefore both are composed of a plurality of individuals.
Our highest potential is to be a member of the body of Adam and then to stay in that body as it undergoes its trials.
Adam is currently being proven true and faithful in all things, including dealing with a polluted and wayward Bride.
In due time this covenant body (Adam) will ascend to become the Eloheim of the cycle of Creation He laid the foundation of.
But, before this happens, it needs to be purged of all of its dross, members that are polluting it with the precepts of men, etc.
We will not ever become an Eloheim in and of ourselves. This is only accomplished in connection with a covenant body.
And, this body will be established here on this earth as a distinct earthly organization that is in a covenant of unity.

In light of this, Denver's doctrine is one of the most horrible perversions of the restoration I have yet seen.
I have not heard Denver utter anything like what I said. This comes right from the King Follet/Lectures on Faith. Your quote there corroborates it. Read it through. You seem blinded by your own "knowledge". Makes me sad. You are also very harsh and coming at me with full force. I was sharing what I had learned, and that I had observed through reading, that Denver had received some things similar to mine. I do not take another man's word for doctrine, no man. All things by revelation and revelation only. I have found this is the only way to receive truth.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by SpeedRacer »

shadow wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:
In my lifetime, this changed. My parents who were once studious people quit studying. They preferred the oral law to the written law. I had quit studying. I preferred the oral law to the written law. God woke me up in 2010 and I started studying the word. Then as I studied the Lord revealed passages that were sitting right there in scripture to me. It changed my entire view of where I was at and what I was working toward.
Sounds like you and your parents are the ones who changed and got lazy. That's your own fault. I've never been taught at church that I need not study anymore. I think you've created your own reasoning and justification for leaving the church. I'm always curious why people do that.
If they want to go inactive then go inactive, but don't make up lame excuses that it's the church's fault. What you claim is simply false. Don't believe your own lies.
Another person who did not read my post...

I did admit it was my own doing that I stopped studying. I am the one who needed to change and I did. I realized it was a cultural shift, it is my experience, you do not get to dictate it. I was pouring over the Conference Ensign instead of the Standard works. When I started reading the scriptures again, I realized there were contradictions.

Then I was asking some tough questions from my studies and I was asked to not talk anymore at church. When both my Bishop, Stake President and Elders Quorum President say I cannot ask questions, I cannot appeal to scripture if they conflict with the manual, they control the message, and maybe the 3 hour block is not for me, then I get the hint. They did not want me there. They do not come to my house and invite me back to church because they do not want me to go. When the Elder's Quorum president did come by he reiterated that they are not inviting us back. A friend of mine in an Elders quorum presidency in another ward was told that we were the reason for lots of people recently leaving church in our stake, and to discourage people from associating with us. They blamed me and my wife for people leaving the church that we had never had a conversation with.

That is not my fault. That is the church leader's fault. I do not care what they do, I am just telling you my experience. When I attend ward meetings in Utah with my parents, it is quite a different experience. I do occasionally attend to listen to friends speak and so forth. People act differently now. No one asks questions, they accept what they have been told. On rare occasion when someone asks, I clarify and they are quite surprised at how much differently they had heard things. That is just people though.

Don't assume, you know what you do when you assume.

jwharton
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Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization...
This is an example of how and why Denver Snuffer's influence is so damaging.
Somehow the net effect of his impact is to cause people to abandon building the Father's literal Kingdom here on earth.

I guess you did not read my whole post. This is from my reading of Joseph Smith, not Denver.

Your guess is wrong.
You are reading Joseph Smith through Denver's special lens.
Denver has butchered many things Joseph Smith Jr. stood for.
Joseph Smith did establish the ancient order of Adam and of Eve.
This is the Priesthood covenant body and the Church covenant body.
They have already been in the Garden and transgressed and been driven out, etc.
Yet Denver indicates no such order was established and that he is the man to do it.
He is nothing more than a usurper of the foundation Joseph Smith Jr. laid.

SpeedRacer wrote:God has no desire to rule and reign over you
The whole purpose of the priesthood is to rule and reign, but in a manner that employs righteous dominion.
Adam was given dominion over all things and commanded to bring it into subjection to His rule.
His purpose for doing so was to bring just governance to the world and salvation to the righteous.

Like I said, this is from my reading of the Lectures on Faith. They were accepted by the church as doctrine. They explain God better than any other source. They make all of the other scriptures on the subject make sense. I am sorry you refuse to entertain any other thought.


This comment isn't relevant or applicable at all to what I said.
I have read and I understand the Lectures on Faith.
I have also read the D&C and other quotes of Joseph Smith Jr. too.
And, I can discern the Denver Snuffer filter that perverts both of them.
I have entertained Denver Snuffer's thought and found it to be a perversion and a dangerous blind alley-way.
Have you really entertained my reasons for reaching this conclusion or will you refuse to follow my thought?

SpeedRacer wrote:he wants you as His equal
This is also a false and utterly arrogant fruit of Denver Snuffer's doctrine.
There is no single human being in flesh and blood that is going to be God's equal, ever.

Adam is in the image and likeness of the Eloheim and therefore both are composed of a plurality of individuals.
Our highest potential is to be a member of the body of Adam and then to stay in that body as it undergoes its trials.
Adam is currently being proven true and faithful in all things, including dealing with a polluted and wayward Bride.
In due time this covenant body (Adam) will ascend to become the Eloheim of the cycle of Creation He laid the foundation of.
But, before this happens, it needs to be purged of all of its dross, members that are polluting it with the precepts of men, etc.
We will not ever become an Eloheim in and of ourselves. This is only accomplished in connection with a covenant body.
And, this body will be established here on this earth as a distinct earthly organization that is in a covenant of unity.

In light of this, Denver's doctrine is one of the most horrible perversions of the restoration I have yet seen.

I have not heard Denver utter anything like what I said. This comes right from the King Follet/Lectures on Faith. Your quote there corroborates it. Read it through.


I have read it through. You need to read it through again.
Joseph Smith Jr. was speaking to the people collectively, not severally.
He wasn't telling each individual that they in and of themselves would become just like God.
He was telling the covenant body of the saints that if they truly form a union that together as a covenant body they could become like God.
This means that if the people build Zion and become pure in heart bound together in love and righteousness, etc. that they would be able to attain to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, which would have them all reach the status of the Eloheim together as that covenant body. Thus, this isn't individuals accomplishing this for themselves, but as each individual being a member of a group knit together in the covenant of the Father.
As I said already, and as Joseph Smith Jr. has said on various occasions, Eloheim is a plurality and Adam was created in the image and likeness of Eloheim, which means Adam is also a plurality. What Joseph didn't ever reveal explicitly is that he gave life to the body of Adam by restoring the covenant body of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
If you do not make this paradigm shift in your thinking and look at it from that perspective you won't see the arrogance of which I speak of.


You seem blinded by your own "knowledge". Makes me sad.


It could also be that my knowledge renders me immune to Denver Snuffer's perversions.
I am quite sure I understand the substance of his message and I can see clearly how it contains dangerous falsehoods.
This conclusion wasn't reached by assuming that but after giving it a reasonable level of consideration and seeing how it is false.
If you get to the point that I can confirm you have reasonably considered the intelligence I have offered on this subject then at the least you will have demonstrated you are not judging this matter from a position of being blind to my position. That will remain to be seen.


You are also very harsh and coming at me with full force.


Yes, and I make no apology for being blunt and to the point.
Would you rather I veil it all in some kind of riddle or tip-toe around it?


I was sharing what I had learned, and that I had observed through reading, that Denver had received some things similar to mine. I do not take another man's word for doctrine, no man. All things by revelation and revelation only. I have found this is the only way to receive truth.


Of course you don't, but I also have clearly discerned Denver Snuffer using some fairly effective manipulation tactics that most people won't pick up on and regain their objectivity.
I'll find the post I put here a long time ago that quotes the text of Denver's 3rd of 10 talks where I expose his manipulation.
You have definitely received a level of influence from him that you are not looking at very objectively.
If you carefully read and consider my post and substantively demonstrate you have looked at it from my perspective, then we will both have each other's "vision" to consider things from. I won't ignore your "vision" because that would be me being blind. But, if you refuse to consider my vision but still want to judge it as you have, then that would be you being blind.

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shadow
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by shadow »

Yes, the 3 hour block is not for asking questions that don't relate to the topic of the lesson. It's not for complaining and sharing contrite ideas and thoughts. The Sunday school teacher has a lesson he/she is assigned to teach. Same with Priethood and Relief Society teachers. We should be respectful of that. Church is not a gripe/complain/doubt session.
Obviously you're not sharing everything that happened. That's fine, but don't get after me for responding to your post when you intentionally held info back. That's dishonest. I suspect that if your stake president, bishop and elders quorum president ALL had issues with your actions, then there was probably some issues with your actions. I suspect their versions of events might differ than yours. It appears you tried to make waves and were called out on it and were asked to stop. Nothing wrong with that if that's the case.

Fact is church members are encouraged to study and ponder the scriptures on their own. I even quoted the church manual that encourages such activities. Your post suggested that the church didn't want people to study the written word anymore. That's what I responded to. You didn't share any underlying details so I wasn't responding to those.

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SpeedRacer
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by SpeedRacer »

shadow wrote:Yes, the 3 hour block is not for asking questions that don't relate to the topic of the lesson. It's not for complaining and sharing contrite ideas and thoughts. The Sunday school teacher has a lesson he/she is assigned to teach. Same with Priethood and Relief Society teachers. We should be respectful of that. Church is not a gripe/complain/doubt session.
Obviously you're not sharing everything that happened. That's fine, but don't get after me for responding to your post when you intentionally held info back. That's dishonest. I suspect that if your stake president, bishop and elders quorum president ALL had issues with your actions, then there was probably some issues with your actions. I suspect their versions of events might differ than yours. It appears you tried to make waves and were called out on it and were asked to stop. Nothing wrong with that if that's the case.

Fact is church members are encouraged to study and ponder the scriptures on their own. I even quoted the church manual that encourages such activities. Your post suggested that the church didn't want people to study the written word anymore. That's what I responded to. You didn't share any underlying details so I wasn't responding to those.
All questions were about the topic being discussed. They were respectful, but introspective of the topic. They all had issues with my questions because they challenge some of the topics that are currently taught in direct contradiction to what is in the standard works. While I never stated that overtly, the questions raised one too many eyebrows and made too many people feel uncomfortable. God forbid anyone think there is any error. I know that I don't have it all figured out, I will openly admit that, but I am doing my best to work toward a point where I can get a few more things worked out.

jwharton
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

Here is one of the posts I promised a link to that exposes Denver Snuffer's manipulation tactics:
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=38351&p=600358#p600358" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Mark
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

I suspect that if your stake president, bishop and elders quorum president ALL had issues with your actions, then there was probably some issues with your actions. I suspect their versions of events might differ than yours. It appears you tried to make waves and were called out on it and were asked to stop. Nothing wrong with that if that's the case.
Gee I dont know Shadow. Maybe you are being to harsh here. When someone just innocently asks why the First Presidency and Quorum of the 12 arent being directly compared to the Jewish Sanhedrin/Scribes and Pharisees of Jesus time and why the Brethren ignore Isaiah because he said it would be so in the last days as a type of their wicked behavior? Or maybe when they ask why the conference center is not named the great and spacious building as spoken of by Nephi and Lehi or perhaps why has the church apostatized from the teachings of Joseph Smith to a large part and why has its leadership become so prideful and arrogant by building malls and ranches; not anything like the few humble followers of Jesus that Nephi saw in his vision? etc etc etc

Isnt that just asking sincere heartfelt questions with no real underlying agenda behind any of it? O:-) I vote that all the sincere humble questioners be given equal time at conference to speak at the pulpit on all their sincere and honest questions to the body of Saints so everyone can get an honest hearing as to why the church is fallen from grace and why the members are just a bunch of deceived goats needing a wakeup call from the true servants out there... like Denver... and Amonhi.. and Rock...and all the remnant gang. They just love us stupid LDS brainwashed sheeple goats and want us all not to go to hell. :ymhug:

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SpeedRacer
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by SpeedRacer »

jwharton wrote:
jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Zion has nothing to do with an earthly organization...
This is an example of how and why Denver Snuffer's influence is so damaging.
Somehow the net effect of his impact is to cause people to abandon building the Father's literal Kingdom here on earth.

I guess you did not read my whole post. This is from my reading of Joseph Smith, not Denver.

Your guess is wrong.
You are reading Joseph Smith through Denver's special lens.
Denver has butchered many things Joseph Smith Jr. stood for.
Joseph Smith did establish the ancient order of Adam and of Eve.
This is the Priesthood covenant body and the Church covenant body.
They have already been in the Garden and transgressed and been driven out, etc.
Yet Denver indicates no such order was established and that he is the man to do it.
He is nothing more than a usurper of the foundation Joseph Smith Jr. laid.


To tell me I am reading through Denver's special lens is a baseless accusation as I have stated clearly that I reached my conclusions then, as I read his stuff found that it was in line with what I had found.
SpeedRacer wrote:God has no desire to rule and reign over you
The whole purpose of the priesthood is to rule and reign, but in a manner that employs righteous dominion.
Adam was given dominion over all things and commanded to bring it into subjection to His rule.
His purpose for doing so was to bring just governance to the world and salvation to the righteous.

Like I said, this is from my reading of the Lectures on Faith. They were accepted by the church as doctrine. They explain God better than any other source. They make all of the other scriptures on the subject make sense. I am sorry you refuse to entertain any other thought.


This comment isn't relevant or applicable at all to what I said.
I have read and I understand the Lectures on Faith.
I have also read the D&C and other quotes of Joseph Smith Jr. too.
And, I can discern the Denver Snuffer filter that perverts both of them.
I have entertained Denver Snuffer's thought and found it to be a perversion and a dangerous blind alley-way.
Have you really entertained my reasons for reaching this conclusion or will you refuse to follow my thought?

SpeedRacer wrote:he wants you as His equal
This is also a false and utterly arrogant fruit of Denver Snuffer's doctrine.
There is no single human being in flesh and blood that is going to be God's equal, ever.

Adam is in the image and likeness of the Eloheim and therefore both are composed of a plurality of individuals.
Our highest potential is to be a member of the body of Adam and then to stay in that body as it undergoes its trials.
Adam is currently being proven true and faithful in all things, including dealing with a polluted and wayward Bride.
In due time this covenant body (Adam) will ascend to become the Eloheim of the cycle of Creation He laid the foundation of.
But, before this happens, it needs to be purged of all of its dross, members that are polluting it with the precepts of men, etc.
We will not ever become an Eloheim in and of ourselves. This is only accomplished in connection with a covenant body.
And, this body will be established here on this earth as a distinct earthly organization that is in a covenant of unity.

In light of this, Denver's doctrine is one of the most horrible perversions of the restoration I have yet seen.

I have not heard Denver utter anything like what I said. This comes right from the King Follet/Lectures on Faith. Your quote there corroborates it. Read it through.


I have read it through. You need to read it through again.
Joseph Smith Jr. was speaking to the people collectively, not severally.
He wasn't telling each individual that they in and of themselves would become just like God.
He was telling the covenant body of the saints that if they truly form a union that together as a covenant body they could become like God.
This means that if the people build Zion and become pure in heart bound together in love and righteousness, etc. that they would be able to attain to exaltation in the Celestial Kingdom, which would have them all reach the status of the Eloheim together as that covenant body. Thus, this isn't individuals accomplishing this for themselves, but as each individual being a member of a group knit together in the covenant of the Father.
As I said already, and as Joseph Smith Jr. has said on various occasions, Eloheim is a plurality and Adam was created in the image and likeness of Eloheim, which means Adam is also a plurality. What Joseph didn't ever reveal explicitly is that he gave life to the body of Adam by restoring the covenant body of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
If you do not make this paradigm shift in your thinking and look at it from that perspective you won't see the arrogance of which I speak of.


You seem blinded by your own "knowledge". Makes me sad.


It could also be that my knowledge renders me immune to Denver Snuffer's perversions.
I am quite sure I understand the substance of his message and I can see clearly how it contains dangerous falsehoods.
This conclusion wasn't reached by assuming that but after giving it a reasonable level of consideration and seeing how it is false.
If you get to the point that I can confirm you have reasonably considered the intelligence I have offered on this subject then at the least you will have demonstrated you are not judging this matter from a position of being blind to my position. That will remain to be seen.


You are also very harsh and coming at me with full force.


Yes, and I make no apology for being blunt and to the point.
Would you rather I veil it all in some kind of riddle or tip-toe around it?


I was sharing what I had learned, and that I had observed through reading, that Denver had received some things similar to mine. I do not take another man's word for doctrine, no man. All things by revelation and revelation only. I have found this is the only way to receive truth.


Of course you don't, but I also have clearly discerned Denver Snuffer using some fairly effective manipulation tactics that most people won't pick up on and regain their objectivity.
I'll find the post I put here a long time ago that quotes the text of Denver's 3rd of 10 talks where I expose his manipulation.
You have definitely received a level of influence from him that you are not looking at very objectively.
If you carefully read and consider my post and substantively demonstrate you have looked at it from my perspective, then we will both have each other's "vision" to consider things from. I won't ignore your "vision" because that would be me being blind. But, if you refuse to consider my vision but still want to judge it as you have, then that would be you being blind.

Now let me explain what I mean about God.
Lecture Fifth wrote:As the Son partakes of the fulness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fulness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so in like manner the saints are to be one in them, through the love of the Father, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit; they are to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
This is saying that we are to partake of the fuless and glory like the son and the father and be one with them.
Moses 1:39 wrote:This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man
Eternal life is the type of life God leads, to give man Eternal life is to make him like God and live like God lives. While God may be further along the progression cycle, the intention is to enable everyone to succeed.
1 Corinthians 13 wrote:Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up
This is the description of the pure love of Christ, or the Love of God. God does not vaunt himself or puff himself, Moroni adds "seeketh not her own" This is a God that does not subject people. This is not a Snufferism, this is what I have found as I have sought God. To continue, this is what is referred to when God describes Zion in Moses 7. He says they are of one heart and one mind. They are one mind as they take on the mind and will of God as described in the Lectures on Faith. Your statement about Adam and the body of creation seem to be directly in line with this, except for the subjugation. Anyway, please do not accuse me of being a follower or tainted, that is not the case. There are some things Denver says that I agree with, there are things he says that are a view I do not share. Of course I could say that about a lot of my LDS friends and my non LDS Christian friends. As Joseph Smith said, let truth come from where it may. I just want the truth, and it comes through the spirit. Discernment has been my focus.

jwharton
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Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

SpeedRacer wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote: I guess you did not read my whole post. This is from my reading of Joseph Smith, not Denver.
jwharton wrote: Your guess is wrong.
You are reading Joseph Smith through Denver's special lens.
Denver has butchered many things Joseph Smith Jr. stood for.
Joseph Smith did establish the ancient order of Adam and of Eve.
This is the Priesthood covenant body and the Church covenant body.
They have already been in the Garden and transgressed and been driven out, etc.
Yet Denver indicates no such order was established and that he is the man to do it.
He is nothing more than a usurper of the foundation Joseph Smith Jr. laid.
To tell me I am reading through Denver's special lens is a baseless accusation as I have stated clearly that I reached my conclusions then, as I read his stuff found that it was in line with what I had found.
Ok, I think understand the distinction you are making.
You reached very similar if not identical conclusions as Denver did but independently of his influence.

Now, please understand my point.
I wasn't necessarily trying to say you are not acting in your own independent mindset.
I am simply pointing out that you are locked in from the same perspective as Denver Snuffer.
And, therefore, I can expect to see the same fruits from you as can be expected from him.
SpeedRacer wrote: Now let me explain what I mean about God.
Lecture Fifth wrote:As the Son partakes of the fulness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fulness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so in like manner the saints are to be one in them, through the love of the Father, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit; they are to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
This is saying that we are to partake of the fuless and glory like the son and the father and be one with them.
I can read it too and have many times before.
It says exactly what I am trying to get you to see.
What you don't realize is you are adding in meaning that isn't explicitly there.
Please try to at least get this distinction I am trying to help you recognize.
It is the most accurate, appropriate and literal way to understand these words.

The Father is Eloheim and the Son is Jehovah and they are both bodies of flesh and bone as tangible as man's.
This means They are covenant bodies comprised of several individuals as members of these bodies joined in covenant.
When two flesh and bone bodies come together as one, this is a simple merging of all of the members of each body into a new body.
This happens when there is a new covenant and so a new body is re-membered, meaning a new order of things is established.
One of the meanings of the sacrament is for us to always re-member our Savior because it is through us He lives on.
The opportunity we have that Joseph Smith Jr. is talking about here was addressed to us as saints, which is plural.
I modified the size of the text so that you would read it literally as it is written and not add in the shift to you as an individual.
If Joseph Smith Jr. meant you and everyone else severally in your individual capacities could do such, he would have said that.
You are injecting in this notion that he was telling you as an individual that you would become God when such is not so.
He was speaking to the saints as a group and encouraging them to become one such that they could become exalted, etc.
We are only ever going to accomplish this great aspiration if we, collectively speaking, learn how to become God and do it.
That is the message of the King Follet discourse and a more appropriate understanding of things.
Man is Adam as a plurality who is destined to become the new Creation's Eloheim which is a plurality.
Just as the Lectures on Faith says, if you don't know the true character and nature of God, you will stumble.
This is what Denver Snuffer is doing and what so many others do when they arrogate this to mean individuals alone.
We must have a true covenant body where there is priesthood, organization, presidency, etc. to keep order in the body.
This notion of Denver's that everybody can just all go their own way and do their own thing flies in the face of true Mormonism.
While it does fiercely champion and protect our individual rights and responsibilities, it also brings in the collective side too.
SpeedRacer wrote:
Moses 1:39 wrote:This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man
Eternal life is the type of life God leads, to give man Eternal life is to make him like God and live like God lives. While God may be further along the progression cycle, the intention is to enable everyone to succeed.
And, who is man? This is a reference to Adam.
And, who is Adam? This is the father of man-kind.
And, is Adam a single person if He is in the exact same image and likeness of Eloheim?
No, if you are in the exact same image and likeness of Eloheim then you are a plurality of individuals joined in covenant.
If you do not understand the true nature of God then you don't understand the true nature of Adam.
And, if you do not understand the true nature of Adam then you don't understand the nature of Man.

I hope you are starting to get the picture.
SpeedRacer wrote:
1 Corinthians 13 wrote:Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up
This is the description of the pure love of Christ, or the Love of God. God does not vaunt himself or puff himself, Moroni adds "seeketh not her own" This is a God that does not subject people. This is not a Snufferism, this is what I have found as I have sought God. To continue, this is what is referred to when God describes Zion in Moses 7. He says they are of one heart and one mind. They are one mind as they take on the mind and will of God as described in the Lectures on Faith. Your statement about Adam and the body of creation seem to be directly in line with this, except for the subjugation. Anyway, please do not accuse me of being a follower or tainted, that is not the case. There are some things Denver says that I agree with, there are things he says that are a view I do not share. Of course I could say that about a lot of my LDS friends and my non LDS Christian friends. As Joseph Smith said, let truth come from where it may. I just want the truth, and it comes through the spirit. Discernment has been my focus.
I only ever advocated righteous dominion, but dominion indeed have I advocated.
Somehow you have bought into the belief that any dominion at all is unrighteous.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote: I guess you did not read my whole post. This is from my reading of Joseph Smith, not Denver.
jwharton wrote: Your guess is wrong.
You are reading Joseph Smith through Denver's special lens.
Denver has butchered many things Joseph Smith Jr. stood for.
Joseph Smith did establish the ancient order of Adam and of Eve.
This is the Priesthood covenant body and the Church covenant body.
They have already been in the Garden and transgressed and been driven out, etc.
Yet Denver indicates no such order was established and that he is the man to do it.
He is nothing more than a usurper of the foundation Joseph Smith Jr. laid.
To tell me I am reading through Denver's special lens is a baseless accusation as I have stated clearly that I reached my conclusions then, as I read his stuff found that it was in line with what I had found.
Ok, I think understand the distinction you are making.
You reached very similar if not identical conclusions as Denver did but independently of his influence.

Now, please understand my point.
I wasn't necessarily trying to say you are not acting in your own independent mindset.
I am simply pointing out that you are locked in from the same perspective as Denver Snuffer.
And, therefore, I can expect to see the same fruits from you as can be expected from him.
SpeedRacer wrote: Now let me explain what I mean about God.
Lecture Fifth wrote:As the Son partakes of the fulness of the Father through the Spirit, so the saints are, by the same Spirit, to be partakers of the same fulness, to enjoy the same glory; for as the Father and the Son are one, so in like manner the saints are to be one in them, through the love of the Father, the mediation of Jesus Christ, and the gift of the Holy Spirit; they are to be heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ.
This is saying that we are to partake of the fuless and glory like the son and the father and be one with them.
I can read it too and have many times before.
It says exactly what I am trying to get you to see.
What you don't realize is you are adding in meaning that isn't explicitly there.
Please try to at least get this distinction I am trying to help you recognize.
It is the most accurate, appropriate and literal way to understand these words.

The Father is Eloheim and the Son is Jehovah and they are both bodies of flesh and bone as tangible as man's.
This means They are covenant bodies comprised of several individuals as members of these bodies joined in covenant.
When two flesh and bone bodies come together as one, this is a simple merging of all of the members of each body into a new body.
This happens when there is a new covenant and so a new body is re-membered, meaning a new order of things is established.
One of the meanings of the sacrament is for us to always re-member our Savior because it is through us He lives on.
The opportunity we have that Joseph Smith Jr. is talking about here was addressed to us as saints, which is plural.
I modified the size of the text so that you would read it literally as it is written and not add in the shift to you as an individual.
If Joseph Smith Jr. meant you and everyone else severally in your individual capacities could do such, he would have said that.
You are injecting in this notion that he was telling you as an individual that you would become God when such is not so.
He was speaking to the saints as a group and encouraging them to become one such that they could become exalted, etc.
We are only ever going to accomplish this great aspiration if we, collectively speaking, learn how to become God and do it.
That is the message of the King Follet discourse and a more appropriate understanding of things.
Man is Adam as a plurality who is destined to become the new Creation's Eloheim which is a plurality.
Just as the Lectures on Faith says, if you don't know the true character and nature of God, you will stumble.
This is what Denver Snuffer is doing and what so many others do when they arrogate this to mean individuals alone.
We must have a true covenant body where there is priesthood, organization, presidency, etc. to keep order in the body.
This notion of Denver's that everybody can just all go their own way and do their own thing flies in the face of true Mormonism.
While it does fiercely champion and protect our individual rights and responsibilities, it also brings in the collective side too.
SpeedRacer wrote:
Moses 1:39 wrote:This is my work and my glory, to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man
Eternal life is the type of life God leads, to give man Eternal life is to make him like God and live like God lives. While God may be further along the progression cycle, the intention is to enable everyone to succeed.
And, who is man? This is a reference to Adam.
And, who is Adam? This is the father of man-kind.
And, is Adam a single person if He is in the exact same image and likeness of Eloheim?
No, if you are in the exact same image and likeness of Eloheim then you are a plurality of individuals joined in covenant.
If you do not understand the true nature of God then you don't understand the true nature of Adam.
And, if you do not understand the true nature of Adam then you don't understand the nature of Man.

I hope you are starting to get the picture.
SpeedRacer wrote:
1 Corinthians 13 wrote:Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up
This is the description of the pure love of Christ, or the Love of God. God does not vaunt himself or puff himself, Moroni adds "seeketh not her own" This is a God that does not subject people. This is not a Snufferism, this is what I have found as I have sought God. To continue, this is what is referred to when God describes Zion in Moses 7. He says they are of one heart and one mind. They are one mind as they take on the mind and will of God as described in the Lectures on Faith. Your statement about Adam and the body of creation seem to be directly in line with this, except for the subjugation. Anyway, please do not accuse me of being a follower or tainted, that is not the case. There are some things Denver says that I agree with, there are things he says that are a view I do not share. Of course I could say that about a lot of my LDS friends and my non LDS Christian friends. As Joseph Smith said, let truth come from where it may. I just want the truth, and it comes through the spirit. Discernment has been my focus.
I only ever advocated righteous dominion, but dominion indeed have I advocated.
Somehow you have bought into the belief that any dominion at all is unrighteous.
Thank you for the clear and concise reply. You are more open with the detail you see on this subject than I am. I agree with you 100% about the groups. I was not sure from your previous post, but this one made is quite clear. I completely agree that the LoF are describing states of being not individuals. The term father implies mother and children. The term son implies mother and father. I Agree that the creation of man in gods image was a plurality. Neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord. At the very minimum it is a man and a woman. There is no such thing as eternal progression as an individual. It was really fun to see so many of the things you explained mirror my own tentative conclusions.

My reason for posting on this thread was that my experience with Denver was similar to mine with you in this instance. You have found something that I have also found that I have never encountered in main stream Mormonism. It is nice to find someone who makes you feel less crazy about what you feel has been revealed.

I am happy we could ratchet down and despite the poor medium of a forum understand each others view, and for my part rejoice when we found common ground.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for the clear and concise reply. You are more open with the detail you see on this subject than I am. I agree with you 100% about the groups. I was not sure from your previous post, but this one made is quite clear.
I appreciate the acknowledgement. Perhaps I'm finally getting better at explaining things in a way so that it can help quicken people's minds.
I am trying my best to find a clear and simple way to describe my understanding, which indeed is not found anywhere in the mainstream.
SpeedRacer wrote:I completely agree that the LoF are describing states of being not individuals.
The term father implies mother and children.
The term son implies mother and father.
I Agree that the creation of man in gods image was a plurality.
Neither is the man without the woman nor the woman without the man in the Lord.
At the very minimum it is a man and a woman.
There is no such thing as eternal progression as an individual.
It was really fun to see so many of the things you explained mirror my own tentative conclusions.
I'm glad to hear you are able to see this much of it.
I think you will find there is still much more here.
I'm not sure how much farther you have gone, but you need to see how covenants tie into things as well.
You do not get these groups or "states of being" without the mechanism of a covenant.
It is becoming a member of a covenant body that has you become a member of a body of flesh and bone.
Any valid covenant body will also have varying offices of leadership to maintain order in the body.
These covenant bodies must become one or they are not an acceptable union to harness the potential power.
The DNA of these bodies is the oracles received from God that outline the laws upon which they are to function.
Put another way, the flesh and bone DNA is the spirit or light or intelligence that the body is to be governed by.
Thus, even though it has a tangible flesh and bone component, meaning the individuals joined, it is a strictly spiritual body.
When you understand this it become possible to open your eyes and see the entire narrative of Adam and Eve playing out here and now.
All of these bodies of flesh and bone, as well as the many unnamed offshoot bodies, are something we can discern and learn from.
We no longer need to speculate about the Adam of 6,000 years ago because the new Adam is here now in the flesh we can see for ourselves.

Adam - Man - Father - Melchizedek Priesthood Body
Eve - Mother - Church Body
Abel - Son of Man - Priesthood Body (Thy will be done and the glory be Thine. Rejected Man of Sorrows.)
Cain - Son of the Morning - Usurper Body (None shall be lost, wherefore give me Thine honor. Liar and murderer.)
Seth - Son of Man - Priesthood Body (Abel's kinsman redeemer, Cain's vanquisher, Adam's redeemer.)

When you come to see things in this realm then it becomes clear that Denver Snuffer is actually out in left field.
He doesn't understand these things and he is in fact trying to rip out the foundation we have that Adam and Eve laid for us.
He takes the perils and pollution Eve suffers in the wilderness and uses them as a basis to judge and condemn Her.
It isn't Her cleansing and redemption that he seeks but rather he seeks to sweep them away entirely.
Denver talks as if the ancient order of Adam and Eve are yet to be established and that he is the one to do it.
He is trying to usurp for himself the exalted position that Joseph Smith Jr. has already performed.

Regardless of the amount of truths Denver has, and he does have some, he has rejected some truths that will result in his damnation.
At best Denver is going to produce one of the unnamed offspring bodies of Adam and Eve who eventually reject Adam and Eve's redemption.
Those who follow Denver (or any one of the many other offshoot groups other than Seth) will remain as if no redemption had been made.
According to D&C section 76 this means that they remain spiritually dead and that they will not escape the buffetings of the adversary.
SpeedRacer wrote: My reason for posting on this thread was that my experience with Denver was similar to mine with you in this instance.
You have found something that I have also found that I have never encountered in main stream Mormonism.
It is nice to find someone who makes you feel less crazy about what you feel has been revealed.
Ditto about the "maybe I'm not so crazy after all" sensation.
SpeedRacer wrote: I am happy we could ratchet down and despite the poor medium of a forum understand each others view, and for my part rejoice when we found common ground.
Yes, agreed. Thanks!

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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SpeedRacer wrote:I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.
You have been offered various covenants and to be a part of tangible bodies of flesh and bone.
Your choices right now consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth and/or a variety of other unnamed offspring of Adam and Eve.
For example, Denver Snuffer is bringing about one such offspring body with their condemnation of Eve and doing their own ordinances.
There are many, many other unnamed offspring that all feel they are very significant because they receive revelation.
But, all of these offspring bodies besides Seth are overcome by pride and miss out on Adam and Eve's redemption.

If you are looking for your own personal covenant to establish your own spiritual posterity unique to the above mentioned covenants and spiritual lineages, then it would be to become yet another unnamed offspring upon which your spiritual posterity would be branched. Is this really what you want? If it is, then as I see it, you will be throwing yourself away insofar as being a part of the exalted bodies that eternal lives are attained through being a member of.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.
You have been offered various covenants and to be a part of tangible bodies of flesh and bone.
Your choices right now consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth and/or a variety of other unnamed offspring of Adam and Eve.
For example, Denver Snuffer is bringing about one such offspring body with their condemnation of Eve and doing their own ordinances.
There are many, many other unnamed offspring that all feel they are very significant because they receive revelation.
But, all of these offspring bodies besides Seth are overcome by pride and miss out on Adam and Eve's redemption.

If you are looking for your own personal covenant to establish your own spiritual posterity unique to the above mentioned covenants and spiritual lineages, then it would be to become yet another unnamed offspring upon which your spiritual posterity would be branched. Is this really what you want? If it is, then as I see it, you will be throwing yourself away insofar as being a part of the exalted bodies that eternal lives are attained through being a member of.
I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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SpeedRacer wrote:
jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:I am happy for the common ground, but I understand the bodies a little different than you. For my part, I think that is great. Diversity in belief causes me to feel less confident and more open to learning. I do not know what role anyone else serves, I am focused on what role I can serve in. I look forward to the day that God will offer me a covenant like he did with Abraham and other men whose hearts were ready for it.
You have been offered various covenants and to be a part of tangible bodies of flesh and bone.
Your choices right now consist of Adam, Eve, Cain, Seth and/or a variety of other unnamed offspring of Adam and Eve.
For example, Denver Snuffer is bringing about one such offspring body with their condemnation of Eve and doing their own ordinances.
There are many, many other unnamed offspring that all feel they are very significant because they receive revelation.
But, all of these offspring bodies besides Seth are overcome by pride and miss out on Adam and Eve's redemption.

If you are looking for your own personal covenant to establish your own spiritual posterity unique to the above mentioned covenants and spiritual lineages, then it would be to become yet another unnamed offspring upon which your spiritual posterity would be branched. Is this really what you want? If it is, then as I see it, you will be throwing yourself away insofar as being a part of the exalted bodies that eternal lives are attained through being a member of.
I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.
It came to me through a process of personal revelation while studying the scriptures that I don't yet really understand either.
Somehow I went through what you could call a quickening experience similar to what Joseph Smith Jr. described.
The Book of Mormon also indicates that Lehi went through a similar process when he had his visionary experiences.
It would be rather difficult to explain what I experienced but burning in the bosom would be an extreme understatement.
I was so physically overcome by the experience that I was largely bedridden for almost 3 weeks before I could function normally.
But, the experience was an entirely spiritual one with many visions and sensations that I can hardly describe.
It was way beyond having a full body orgasm that made my entire framework vibrating due to the energy surging in me.
Joseph Smith Jr. would talk about how his bones would quake and this was definitely a part of what I experienced.
After this experience I became able to see everything in an entirely new way, like Saul turning to Paul by way of his experience.
Alma the younger also likely tasted this as he described it as being a most exquisite joy that filled his entire soul with light, etc.
There are several other things revealed to me during this and other subsequent aftershocks, so to speak, as well.
But, so far, in all of my efforts to gain audience with the current covenant bodies with my findings, I have been perceived as evil.

I am simply awaiting having a role in Adam and Eve's redemption by way of the restitution of all things to Them through Seth's ministration.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote: I am so curious. How did you come to this conclusion about the presiding bodies? It is fascinating.
It came to me through a process of personal revelation while studying the scriptures that I don't yet really understand either.
Somehow I went through what you could call a quickening experience similar to what Joseph Smith Jr. described.
The Book of Mormon also indicates that Lehi went through a similar process when he had his visionary experiences.
It would be rather difficult to explain what I experienced but burning in the bosom would be an extreme understatement.
I was so physically overcome by the experience that I was largely bedridden for almost 3 weeks before I could function normally.
But, the experience was an entirely spiritual one with many visions and sensations that I can hardly describe.
It was way beyond having a full body orgasm that made my entire framework vibrating due to the energy surging in me.
Joseph Smith Jr. would talk about how his bones would quake and this was definitely a part of what I experienced.
After this experience I became able to see everything in an entirely new way, like Saul turning to Paul by way of his experience.
Alma the younger also likely tasted this as he described it as being a most exquisite joy that filled his entire soul with light, etc.
There are several other things revealed to me during this and other subsequent aftershocks, so to speak, as well.
But, so far, in all of my efforts to gain audience with the current covenant bodies with my findings, I have been perceived as evil.

I am simply awaiting having a role in Adam and Eve's redemption by way of the restitution of all things to Them through Seth's ministration.[/quote]

Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Mark wrote:
jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.
For me it is very painful to watch.
I am grateful to see members who finally loosen their necks and who do not deny the hard truths of how polluted and out of order things are.
But, when they come through this awakening, they still have their hearts tested to see if they will extend the same grace as was extended to them.
Sadly, instead of people realizing they are just as much at fault as anyone for how polluted things are...
they almost immediately turn against those they were formerly among and happy to be a part of and become prideful.

We have to be able to cross all 3 hurdles of:
1) Being willing to sincerely consider hard truths.
2) Refraining from denying hard truths when we are shown them.
3) Maintaining a soft and charitable heart in light of the hard truths we now understand.

It seems like at every step of the way that people are failing in one way or another.

The Lord is not looking for a snarky and prideful remnant.
The Lord wants a remnant who stands on holy ground in grace and humility.

You are correct that the movements like the Denver Snuffer one are hypocritical.
They claim to want to "preserve the restoration" but in effect they simply want to usurp it entirely.
Those in the Denver Snuffer movement are really not much more than yet another sect of Christianity.

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Mark
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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by Mark »

jwharton wrote:
Mark wrote:
jwharton wrote:
SpeedRacer wrote:Thank you for sharing! I understand the quickening. Hoping for the visions.
The visions are the things you "see" through the "eyes of understanding", not visual as in imagery.
Anything someone would see in a visual dream-state experience is a crutch in comparison.
And, imagery yet has the unfortunate requirement of still being subject to your own interpretation.
The ultimate end you really want to get to is the actual pure understanding of things.
You want to get to the point where you have penetrated all layers of potential misinterpretation.
The true irony of all this is that those who think the church has in essence turned their back on Joseph and his teachings and who eventually separate themselves from the church body like Snuffer and many others have done or are doing think that they themselves are the true remnant who will be the means through which the establishment of Zion will occur. Yet these folks pretty well just trash Josephs true role as dispensational head by doing what they are doing and leading others out of the body. They say that they revere Joseph and all he did yet they really just spit in his face by breaking from the covenant body of Christ in this dispensation or as you say by their condemnation of Eve and the ordinances restored through Joseph for those in this dispensation and go about setting up their own version. Satan has a real belly laugh with all this foolishness.
For me it is very painful to watch.
I am grateful to see members who finally loosen their necks and who do not deny the hard truths of how polluted and out of order things are.
But, when they come through this awakening, they still have their hearts tested to see if they will extend the same grace as was extended to them.
Sadly, instead of people realizing they are just as much at fault as anyone for how polluted things are...
they almost immediately turn against those they were formerly among and happy to be a part of and become prideful.

We have to be able to cross all 3 hurdles of:
1) Being willing to sincerely consider hard truths.
2) Refraining from denying hard truths when we are shown them.
3) Maintaining a soft and charitable heart in light of the hard truths we now understand.

It seems like at every step of the way that people are failing in one way or another.

The Lord is not looking for a snarky and prideful remnant.
The Lord wants a remnant who stands on holy ground in grace and humility.

You are correct that the movements like the Denver Snuffer one are hypocritical.
They claim to want to "preserve the restoration" but in effect they simply want to usurp it entirely.
Those in the Denver Snuffer movement are really not much more than yet another sect of Christianity.
Perhaps you might be of help to those who are thinking of being part of this "preserve the restoration" movement or any of the other movements intent on separating them from the body. If they can just pause to consider the ramifications of what you are saying it might cause them to question their direction they are taking. That would be a very worthwhile thing. Thanks for the efforts.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Mark wrote:Perhaps you might be of help to those who are thinking of being part of this "preserve the restoration" movement or any of the other movements intent on separating them from the body. If they can just pause to consider the ramifications of what you are saying it might cause them to question their direction they are taking. That would be a very worthwhile thing. Thanks for the efforts.
Thank you for recognizing the fine line I am attempting to tread.
I'm grateful to see evidence that my ability to communicate it is improving.

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Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

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Knowledge saves a man. You must search into all heights and depths. It is important to know if what has been revealed to you is a height or a depth. Sometimes depths are revealed and we take them for heights. When we improperly do such a thing, we can lead ourselves astray. I have found gaining the broadest view of things is the most helpful for me. I have investigated many forms of Christianity and other religions. It is amazing the amount of similarities there are.

Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked. I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation. Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate. Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it. How few were preserved in the flood? How few survived the destruction among the Nephites? How few were found faithful in any of the beginning phases with Joseph Smith?

God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.

Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.

As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.

I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.

jwharton
captain of 1,000
Posts: 3067
Location: USA

Re: My Experience with Denver Snuffer

Post by jwharton »

SpeedRacer wrote:Knowledge saves a man. You must search into all heights and depths. It is important to know if what has been revealed to you is a height or a depth. Sometimes depths are revealed and we take them for heights. When we improperly do such a thing, we can lead ourselves astray.
Please give an example.
SpeedRacer wrote:Denver Snuffer did me a great service. For the first time I heard a voice that provided intelligent dissent. I was shocked.
There have been many for a long time who have been raising up truths that the mainstream has been moving away from.
Denver is only becoming a "big deal" because he has decided to put himself forward and posture himself as a "big deal".
Other than that, he has actually offered relatively little truth and light of value compared to several others out there.
He just has a particular knack for using a special kind of sophistry I don't see very often that manipulates the unwary.
SpeedRacer wrote:I actually found myself in a spiritual slumber, going to church, paying my tithing, etc. I was spiritually dead "in the body" as is being referenced in this thread. I can testify that being "in the body" does not bring salvation.
This is an underhanded slam to those who have entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation.
This is the very same smarmy subtlety that Denver uses to slam the church and disaffect people toward it. I rebuke it.
I am also certain Joseph Smith Jr. would soundly rebuke this attack on everything he stood for accomplishing.
SpeedRacer wrote:Being a personal member of the body of Christ by being given a calling, does initiate salvation. Ultimately that calling and election must be made sure by He who employs no servant at the gate.
You know not what you mock. The gate is guarded by Him personally.
Nobody receives the ordinances of salvation except that He is in approval.
Nobody is received into covenant with Him without His direct approval.
Who is He? He is the flesh and bone body of the Melchizedek Priesthood.
We are members of this Body literally so do not discount that.
You never accepted your responsibility and authority.
You have taken your covenants for granted.
No wonder you became "dead" to the body.
SpeedRacer wrote:Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to damnation, but straight is the gate and narrow is the way to salvation, and FEW there be that find it.
One of the limiting factors of being among the FEW is because if you have not entered into covenants and received the ordinances of salvation then you will not be among these few. And, even among those who do, at some point many of them succumb to temptation to walk away from the body as if they have outgrown it and they are better than it and that it is polluted and so on. You do not walk away from your covenants that connect you to the body and get to be able to remain among the FEW.
SpeedRacer wrote: God did not use the "body of Jews" in Israel when Jesus came in the meridian of time. They had supplanted the written law for the oral law given by their current priesthood leaders. They killed Christ for not adhering to the the oral law. In our day when the Mormon body prefers the latest conference edition of the Ensign to the scriptures, we find the same circumstance, the same pattern that has been going on forever. Apostasy. But Jesus did work within that corrupt body of believers, calling them to repentance as he covenanted with their fathers. You can work within any corrupt body of believers, but the challenge is to avoid the corruption. It is so hard to avoid group think.

Faith comes with a correct understanding of the nature and characteristics of God, that is almost impossible to find today as it was in Joseph's day or in Christ's day or in Enoch's day. Joseph is the latest one to teach it properly, he experienced God, he tried to explain it. Seek it out.

As to the thought that the LDS church will save you, is a false notion. It has even been preached in conference. The gospel saves, not the church. Belonging to an earthly organization does not save you. Belonging to the one true church, the church of the first born is required for salvation, it is in our scriptures for heaven's sake. But you must set out on a quest like Abraham asserts in the Book of Abraham. Preferring knowledge of heaven above all. Maintaining all of the idols and unbelief you have created furthers your servitude to false gods.

I am amazed at all the niche religions that are being propped up. I refuse them all.
The taint of Denver Snuffer's prideful posture towards the Church is strong in your words here.
I discern several of your foot prints that are departed from the straight and narrow way.
Eve is the Mother of all Living and, despite Her pollution, She remains the only vehicle the FEW shall get to exaltation in.
The salvation you are preaching and the spirit you are drawing people towards is not the Spirit that will lead you to exaltation.

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